1) Again, this blog post is up to you where you want to go with your response, but please make sure that your writing has depth to it. What meaning does this passage reveal? A 3-sentence blog post is not sufficient! Also, this is a long reading for the three-day weekend. Please make sure that your passage is significant and reflects some BIG ideas that struck you as you read this weekend.
2) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post! Answer their questions, or pose a question of your own!
Try some of these sentence starters:
"I wonder why..."
"I'm surprised that..."
"I don't understand..."
"I was struck by..."
"It's interesting that..."
"I'm bothered that..."
"The central issue here seems to be..."
"If I were a character inside this text..."
“I have a feeling that you’re riding for some kind of terrible, terrible fall. . . . The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn't supply them with. . . . So they gave up looking.”
ReplyDeleteAfter leaving his parent's apartment. he goes to his English teacher (from Elkton) apartment. Antolini (English teacher) has an argument with Holden about his life and what he is doing with it. At one point Antolini says the quote at the top and it makes me wonder, what is Altolini wants to catch him in his "fall". He gave Holden to live in, he gave him a lecture, he even patted his head while he was a sleep. He wants to catch Holden from his fall.
I agree and disagree with you. I think that Mr. Antolini is just trying to warn Holden that he needs to stay in school and try to enjoy the experience because if he doesn't, and he just keeps walking around smoking, and getting drunk on the New York City streets, he is never going to become anything. I do agree that Mr. Antolini would like to help Holden stay on the right path, but it really is Holden's decision of whether or not to stay in school and have a future, Mr. Antolini can't do much about it.
DeleteI disagree with you. i feel that Mr. Antolini is just trying to keep Holden on the right path like Marion said, also i think that he's just trying to be helpful and wants to influence Holden to make a choice in life and chose a path because maybe Mr. Antolini feels that Holden is stuck in the road and needs a path to chose but is afraid of the outcome of the path and afraid of what lies ahead. which Mr. Antolini is there to lecture him to make a choice not to really catch him from his fall which is where i diagree with you.
Delete"I keep picturing all this little kids playing some game in this big field of a rye and all. Thousands of little kids, nobody's around- nobody big, I mean- except me... I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff- I mean they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them...I'd just be the catcher on the rye and all."(pg.173)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is significant because it describes Holden not wanting to grow up and to just stay a kid. The reason he loves kids so much is because they have this innocence, non-judgement and the ability to express themselves freely. Holden believes the kids are the safe zone, the cliff is adulthood and he's in between the crossroads. He's trying to catch the kids because they don't know where they're going and could easily grow up fast without a choice. This reveals that Holden is caught between the safe zone and falling into adulthood. He thinks as a child, but is faced with adult situations.
I was also going to choose this quote. It is significant enough to be the title of the book. I agree with your comment that, this passage reiterates to the readers how much Holden loves kids. However, I disagree with you because I do not think that Holden wants to be a child. If he did then he would have said he wanted to be one of the children running around on the rye field. The central idea seems to be that Holden wants to be a protector of children and their innocence. He wants these children on the rye field to be free of worries and not have to grow up. In a way, Holden expresses wanting to be the caring motherly type that we identified as someone who gets his approval in class. Could this vision be what Holden wishes his childhood was like?
DeleteThis relates back to our assignment when we had to draw an image and show how it relates to our quote my image was based on this quote. I think that Holden is the catcher in the rye and a rye is just a big tall field so you can't really see anything so i picture it as little kids running around in the rye and since they can't see anything they can just fall off the cliff so Holden is there to catch them if they fall. this quote however symbolizes who Holden is because Holden loves kids because they are so innocent and they love to have fun. so I think that when those kids fall off the cliff it's like going to hell but it is not really hell it is the adult world and Holden is trying to catch them before they become like those very mean and judgmental adults. if they fall down they are losing their innocence and Holden is there to help them that way they can keep their innocence. which shows how much Holden wants to be a child again because kids don't have to worry they just have fun. He wants to protect these kids from the adult world or the real world.
DeleteThis quote reminds why the title is called the Catcher in the Rye for an intended purpose. The Catcher in the Rye can be interpreted in two ways. Holden is the "Catcher" because he is catching all the kids since they are so innocent, that he doesn't want to them to fall off the cliff and transition into this horrible adult world. The other meaning of the "Catcher" could mean, that Holden is the "Catcher", but he needs Allie's mitt. Even though, Allie is dead and his mitt is Holden's only memory of him. He needs it because it's only way for to survive this crazy adult world and he can talk to him about anything because he won't be judgmental since he is dead. This refers to the metaphor that a catcher will always needs his mitt. Another way "The Catcher in the Rye" is interpreted is that rye is a field. All kids are running around and if they fall off the cliff their childhood is gone. This is a way that Holden to make sure the innocence of children should be preserved and going to the adult world at a young age you tend to regret all the things you missed as you were a child. Is this is a reason why "The Catcher in the Rye" is called "The Catcher in the Rye" ? J.D. Salinger picked this title because he wanted to emphasis important symbolic message between the adult world and childhood.
DeleteI put on my bathrobe and I ran downstairs too, and there was old James Castle laying right on the stone steps and all. he was dead, his teeth, and blood.... if you want to know the truth. I almost didn't lend him the sweater, just because I didn't know him too well..... Page 171
ReplyDeleteI just couldn't deal with all of the emotions that I had inside of me.. you have the moment in which you can read something so powerful and terrifying and just go through your head what will actually happen. this passage is what really made me understand everything that Holden is feeling from the very moment he lost his brother in those drops of rain and having suicide thoughts in the back of his head. He doesn't know where to start, right now he is lost in his mind knowing that the lives of people are lost in their own guiltiness. This guiltiness is what surprised the at the moment. Its like knowing your at the very last moment in your life and nobody will give you a hand or carry you to a way to survival and at that moment they are too insecure about how the body looks? This reflects back to the moment in which he and his family went to Allies tomb, suddenly it was raining and everybody ran to their cars but Allie was the only one who didn't run. Their is a moment in life that you have to move on but knowing that person is Dead and their is no one to be blamed is what really annoys you. Holden at the moment is almost shocked and frozen because not even knowing James Castle and feeling this sort of relationship with him was what really made him notice everything in life. The people you never knew in the first place is the people you wished you knew better. Holden almost didn't give him the sweater, Holden's sweater was the existence of James Castle death, he can never forget this moment in his life.
I agree with you when you said that this passage is connected to Holden losing his brother and having suicide thoughts in the back of his head. I actually had the same exact reaction when I read this passage, It's amazing how a single peace of writing can make you feel so sad and empty the way that this quote did. I truly believe that the death of Holden's friend, James had an impact on him; which is why Holden decided to share it with us. Maybe it didn't have as big as an impact on Allie's death, but I still think that death in general is something Holden has a hard time understanding and dealing with. For example, whenever Holden sees an old person he gets so weird because they're a lot closer to death than he is. He says that old people "depress" him. Maybe death scares Holden. Maybe that's why he likes kids so much: Their life just started. They have so much more to live for.
Delete“You don’t like anything that’s happening.” It made me even more depressed when she said that. “Yes I do. Yes I do. Sure I do. Don’t say that. Why the hell do you say that?”...”Because you don’t,” she said. “Name one thing.”...”I like Allie,” I said. “And I like doing that I’m doing right now. Sitting here with you, and talking and thinking about stuff.” (169,171)
ReplyDeleteThis passage was powerful. Phoebe makes Holden question himself and dig deep. Holden does not know himself as well as he thinks. Phoebe knows Holden better than he knows himself. She can sense things about Holden that Holden refuses to think about. I think that without realizing it, Holden is ruining Phoebe’s innocence. He is forcing her to think and talk about things that are way beyond her years. Later in this conversation, Phoebe also questions Holden about his future. As a reader, I am glad that Phoebe is asking Holden these questions. They are the questions that I have wanted to ask Holden since the beginning of the book. Phoebe is one of the only positives influences in Holden’s life because she forces him to look at himself and face his problems.
What especially struck me in this quote was the part when Holden questions Phoebe’s reasons for saying he doesn't like anything anymore, “Why the hell do you say that?... Because you don’t,”. This brings us back to Holden’s insecureness, how he labels those he is jealous of with bad names, rejects people before they can reject him, and ignore reality(the latter of which Phoebe wont let him do) to protect himself. The reason behinds Phoebe response though is unclear, if she loves her brother so much, why wouldn’t she let him continue to cocoon himself in lies, something that may mentally be the difference for Holden between life and death? Maybe Phoebe feels that Holden is better of without all the phony, and if he can realize his problems now, like him hating everything, there might be time to change.
DeleteThis passage displays Holden is finally revealing what he likes instead of saying all the time, that he hates "phony" people or something. He says that he loved Allie, Phoebe, Jane, Old Luce etc. I strongly agree with you that Phoebe is positive influence in his life and assist Holden by finding who he is as an individual. Phoebe does this by telling him that he doesn't like a lot of things and will make think a lot deeply about himself. This is way that Holden will finally change his perspective about people or things. I was very curious to ask this question, but I'm glad Phoebe did.
Delete"Then all of a sudden, I started to cry. I did it so that nobody could hear me, but I did it. It scared hell out of old Phoebe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop.But once you get started you can't stop on a goddam dime."
ReplyDeleteThis passage really showed me the softer side of Holden. Holden is puts a distance between him and the rest of the world because he wants to protect his feelings. He is scared of getting hurt because he knows how it feels. this was how he felt when Allie died and he didn't know how to deal with all the pain, suffering, and anger inside of him so he puts up this "Front" and hides his true feelings and emotions. He isolated himself fro the rest of the world not connecting or trusting anyone. This passage however showed how Holden let down his guard by crying because he knows that if he starts crying in front of somebody then people are going to think that he is weak and a soft. So I think that the crying help Holden not only letting down his guard but it made him feel a lot better about himself and all of the pain that has be bottled away in his heart is finally released and there is a feeling of relief when he was crying. He surprised himself when he was crying because that is just not him and Holden has to understand that it is okay to cry it is okay to be scared sometimes because we are all human.
I agree, I think that this quote really shows how fragile Holden actually is. He puts on a front, a tough guy that can take anything, but really he is sensitive. Holden tries to protect himself, but while he is protecting himself, he is cutting himself off. Holden thinks that he is protecting himself, but he is actually wounding himself. I think that Phoebe gets scared when Holden starts to cry is because she does not usually see the " weak" side of Holden. I do not only think that Phoebe was scared by Holden crying, but I also think that Holden scared himself by crying.
DeleteI agree with both of you that Holden crying really showed his softer side. Him crying also showed that the front he puts up is to protect himself from people judging him based on his emotions. By crying in front of Phoebe it shows that he knows she won't judge him and will be there for him. Phoebe was scared because it was an unexpected thing to do on Holden's behalf.
DeleteI agree with all 3 of you,Holden is all ways talking about who sad ,depressed, and he shows us how lonely and desperate for friends he is but he never cries once about those things, but sometimes if you kept emotions in for too long you are bound to just let all the tears run out. I also agree with the fact that this is another time were we see the softer side of him .
Delete“ You know what I’d like to be... Anyways, I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody’s around- nobody big, I mean- except me. And I’m standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start going of the cliff- I mean they’re running and they don’t know where they are going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That’s all I’d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it’s crazy, but that’s the only thing I’d really like to be.” (pg. 173)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden want to be the catcher in the rye?
I feel like Holden is about to, or already has fallen of the rye, away from the world which I interpreted as childhood, to a place where Holden feels he doesn’t belong in, the real world, or will continue to fall, as Mr. Antolini suggested, and never hit the bottom. And Holden, who has shown his love of kids for their “un-phony”, nonjudgmental, and understanding personality, wants to save them from leaving their childhood, as no one else will, “nobody’s around- nobody big”. These kids, mentioned from Holden’s imagination are playing a game, enjoying themselves as they run around, yet not knowing where they are going, like Holden who is still trying to find a direction in life. Not knowing that they are going to drop of a cliff, Holden tries to help guide them away from a drop into what he would describe as misery. The fall of the cliff symbolizes the loss of innocence in these kids, something Holden wants to save them from. A catcher in the rye, is similar to the job of a lawyer, to save innocent guys lives, but as Holden points out, as a lawyer you either end up making a lot of money and not caring, or even if you really wanted to save lives you might feel as though your work was not for your clients, but instead for the congratulations and bravado you would receive, and doubt yourself as a phony. While dissimilarly, caching kids coming of a cliff is so pure like the kids themselves, and it may be a job that not only Holden wants and feels he needs to do, but something he cant mess up, as long as he never stops catching the kids.
What you said also made me think about one of the lines you used in your response. “Nobody’s around-nobody big.” If he is so concerned with saving these little kids form being adults, why would the lack of adults concern him also? I think Holden knows that there is a place in the world for both kids and adults and he knows that kids need adults but he doesn’t like the idea that everyone must be an adult. He thinks that maybe other kids will become adults and he can just save these ones, which in turn would save him. I think one of the reasons Holden sees himself as a catcher in the rye is because nobody tried to save him, so he has to dedicate his life to saving other kids, so they don’t have to go through what he went through. This was also the main reason why Holden didn’t kill himself. He didn’t want Phoebe to go through what he went through when Allie died. I think Holden thinks that adult’s job is to save kids from falling off the ledge. His parents didn’t save him so he feels betrayed, which is why he didn’t call them to tell them he had been kicked out of school. Holden knows there has to be adults but he wanted them to save him from becoming an adult.
Delete“ You know what I’d like to be... Anyways, I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody’s around- nobody big, I mean- except me. And I’m standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start going of the cliff- I mean they’re running and they don’t know where they are going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That’s all I’d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it’s crazy, but that’s the only thing I’d really like to be.” (pg. 173)
ReplyDeleteThis is a very significant quote to me, probably the one that stood out to me the most in the whole book. Holden has spent most of his life in darkness and depression and neglect. Holden loves people who don't care what people think and who aren't "phony", and little kids do exactly just that. Children are so oblivious to the real world and it just comes NATURALLY for them not to care. Holden is also torn between the child world and the real adult one, and he feels like he can live his childhood through these children, especially his sister. I believe that Holden wants this "job" for the wholesomeness and innocence that it comes with because all he wants is his innocence back, once you lose your innocence there is absolutely no way to get it back. Also Holden talks about an "adult" job; being a lawyer. He points out how bitter and useless it is and how you really get nothing out of it, unless its for your own selfish reasons. You don't really care about these people, you care about money and getting recognition. As someone who's a catcher in the rye, Holden catches these kids because he wants to save them and because he truly feels a pure love for these children that in a way, can fill up the empty void he has in his life. That's what I think is one of the most important things that Holden is missing from his life; love.
"You don't like any schools.You don't like a million things. You don't."(pg.169)
ReplyDeleteI was struck by this quote because it shows Holden's insecureness. When Phoebe starts to confront him about his personal life and says that he doesn't like a lot of things. Holden denies it and he is afraid of growing up. He is afraid of growing up and he doesn't want to children now to lose their innocence.Children needs to be children and they have to be remain the same. The more people question him about his personal life, he is going to continuously keep denying it. It's true that Holden doesn't like a lot of things and Holden doesn't want to admit it to Phoebe, but when Holden brought up the fact he liked Allie she didn't understand why. "I know he's dead! Don't you think I think I know that? I can still like him, though can't I?Just because somebody's dead, you don't just stop liking them, for God's sake-especially if they were about thousand times nicer than the people you know that're alive and all."(pg.171) The important question to remember is What type of things or people does Holden really like? In class we were discussing he likes Allie, children, Jane, Old Luce etc. Holden does and does not like a lot of things because it is people's actions and behavior that he does or does not like. If he likes something or someone people do it is because he wants to follow their example. If he does not like someone or something then he perceives as "phony" and feels disappointed.
I agree with you, Holden likes thing that he doesn't have, whether it's an attribute or a thing. In general we all want what we don't have, so I can relate to Holden in a way. However it is strange that, whatever Holden doesn't like he believes is phony. Maybe "phony" has a hidden meaning when Holden uses it. Also it's ironic that, when Holden meets strangers he finds the "phoniness" in them, except for the coat check lady. As discussed in class, we see a trend of Holden liking females, which is probably because they listen more. Unlike phony people, who don't listen to Holden.
DeleteI also strongly agree with you Kiran because I also believe that this quote shows how insecure Holden is. I believe that this quote exemplifies Holden’s low self-esteem since all Holden does is hate this and hate that. I believe that the reason for why Holden never tries to create a bond with anything is because he has low self-esteem and because he is afraid of getting rejected and judged by people. In addition, I believe that Holden hates everything because like you said he hates that things can’t stay the way they were before so in other words he hates the fact that he ages and grows up. For example, back in chapter 16 “I passed by this playground and stopped and watched a couple of very tiny kids on a seesaw. One of them was of fat, and I put my hand on the shiny kid’s end, to sort of even them up the weight, but you could tell they didn’t want me around, so I let them alone.” (Salinger 122) This quote demonstrates how Holden tries to play with younger kids but without hesitating the younger kids reject him since he no longer is part of them because of the difference in their ages.
Delete" 'Allie's dead-you always say that! If somebody's dead and everything and in , heaven , then it isn't really-' ' I know he's dead! Don't you think I know that ? I can still like him though ,can't I ? Just because somebody's dead, you don't just stop liking them for God's sake -especially if they were about a thousand times nicer than the people o know that're alive"
ReplyDeleteThe quote really stood out to me because it showed how he compares people he see and talks to, to is brother Allie , Phoebe and Jane . I find it funny how he compares people to them but yet he is the exact opposite of who he admires . Another reason why he was almost yelling phoebe and kinda telling her how much he is still hurting for Allie's death but he has too much pride to admit it .
" Oh, God, Phoebe, don't ask me. I'm sick of everybody asking me that, a million reasons why. It was one of the worst schools I ever went to." ( pg. 167)
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Holden brings up the other schools that he went to now, because he never brought it up in detail any other time. Holden keeps on comparing Pencey to other schools that he went to, but he never actually talks about the other schools he went to, which makes it very difficult for the reader to compare the other schools that Holden went to, to Pencey. I think that Holden does not want to get into detail on what happened in the other schools because Holden does not like being open, or at least that is what he says at the beginning of the book more or less. I also think that when Holden says that it was worse than the other schools that he had ever been to, because he wants to express to Phoebe how much he despised Pencey. Holden does not need to talk about the other schools he went to because Holden seems to be very close to Phoebe so Holden probably already told her everything. When Holden compares his schools it is to express how much he hates Pencey to Phoebe, not the reader.
I think that Holden is just trying to avoid conversation about him getting kicked-out of Pencey. He says that he's tired of being asked the same question over and over again. Maybe Phoebe and his parents are also used to the same story that the school was the worst that he had been to. Not only that but Holden says that he has a million reasons for why Pencey was awful, but he doesn't really give any good reasons for why the school was not good at all.
Delete"She put the dough in my hand. 'Hey I don't need all this,' I said. 'Just give me two bucks, is all. No kidding-Here.' I tried to give it back to her, but she wouldn't take it. 'You can take it all. You can pay me back. Bring it to the play.' Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it." (p179)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden cry when Phoebe gives him the money?
We know Holden as a person who doesn't really like to get help from people. He asks Phoebe for money because, well I think he asks her because he thinks that she might not have a lot of money. He says he only needs two bucks but we know Holden and he either stays at a fancy hotels and takes cabs everywhere instead of just taking the subway. So when Phoebe gives him the money I think that even though Holden didn't say why, I think that he cried because he feels that he's home he shouldn't have to runaway from his problems and facing his parents about him being kicked-out of school. He's asking his sister for money because he's practically running away from home, even though he's coming back in 3 days. He knows he can't runaway from his problems but he doesn't know how to face the truth. Maybe I'm over thinking this, but it's just what I thought.
I sort of disagree, I think Holden is crying because of the kind gesture. I also think he is running away from his problems and not coming back. Also I feel he thinks he needs to run away from his problems. I think his problem being depression. I do not think he knows how to act. And he thinks the only escape besides death is runaway. He does not want another death for his family so he runs away.
DeleteI agree with how Holden is running away from his problems. Not only that but I also agree with how you think that Holden doesn't know how to act. He doesn't know himself quite yet. Holden doesn't even know what tomorrow is going to be like. For him he goes with what pops into his head, but for him, I agree with Molly that ever since Allie's death, his mother has never been the same. He wants to do something that he thinks won't hurt his family but still is. He doesn't want his parents to go through the pain they had when Allie died, so for him death is not an option. The only thing he thinks that he has left is running away.
DeleteThis might not seem so important but it stood out to me and I think it connects to a lot what we are saying.
ReplyDelete"It made me even more depressed when she said that."
I think this is important because Phoebe has a big impact of Holden's life. She is really important to Holden. Without Phoebe Holden probably would not be living anymore. I know that was a little but in the book he does say that. He says he just wouldn't want to make Phoebe go through what he did when Allie died. Also he really cares about Phoebes acceptance. He judges everybody except Phoebe and he hates when people judge him except Phoebe. Phoebe is the exception for everything according to Holden. His existence is for Phoebe. In perspective the only reason there is this book is because of Phoebe. Phoebe is the existence of Holden. Without each other I do not think one could live without the other. There is a song called Two is Better Than One, and it i kind of like Holden and Phoebe.
I totally agree with you. I like the fact that you came up with a song that represents them in a way. I think Phoebe does have a big impact on his life because he act freely around her. I mean its his little sister. he doesn't care about being judged by her. He seems to actually like it because his little sister helps him out by at least putting a little thought of his future in his head. Not only that, but Phoebe makes him feel happy a little after Allie's death. Without her he will be nothing. His brother has left him for the dead and he seems clueless. So he uses Phoebe to guide him through his tough moments.
Delete“‘If you go away, you won’t see me in the play,’ she said. Her voice sounded funny when she said it.” (179)
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me think about how Phoebe views Holden. Holden is always talking about the good side, about he and Phoebe dance and how he knows where she roller skates. But he also says things like “‘I’m not interested.’” (164). this was when she was trying to talk to him about D.B’s new big movie. Holden is kind of harsh with her, like he only needs her for certain information and he doesn’t want to listen to the rest. He also seems to be rude to her and disregard what she wants to talk about so he can focus in his own agenda. I chose the quote above because it made me wonder about Holden before the book started. Phoebe here is scared that Holden is going to leave and isn’t going to come back. She doesn’t want to lose him like she lost her other two brothers. She was scared here because he said he was going to go and she didn’t want him to go and never come back or kill himself. In the past, he has clearly left her before because otherwise she wouldn’t need to be scared that she was going to leave her now. Holden may not have always been as nice to her as it seems he is now. This quote also made me think about what Phoebe knows about her brother. She seems to pick up on the fact that he’s always dropping out of schools because he doesn’t like them and that there is something wrong with Holden. Maybe he was better before Allie died and now she realizes that he is sad. This may also be why when he broke down crying it was particularly scary. She tries to protect him multiple times by saying it was her who smoked the cigarette and that he can have all of her money. She is looking out for him because she knows he needs someone to. Phoebe really loves her brother and she can tell he loves her, but she can never know whether when he leaves he will come back.
I agree and disagree. For one thing, Holden will never 'leave' Phoebe in the sense that your referring to. He's really the only thing he sees pride in. I think Holden even depends on Phoebe, she's the one that gives him comfort. Ya, she's scared, but because she wants to look out for Holden. The age situation is kind of revers, Phoebe is the mature one, while Holden is the one that needs to be comforted.
DeleteI agree, I think that Holden really means a lot to Phoebe, and at times she thinks she doesn't mean as much to him, or that he'll just leave her and never come back. I think she just wants her older brother to be around more and she simply misses him. I think Holden wants to be around Phoebe a lot of the time too, but he won't allow himself to always stay near because of his problems with his parents and how much damage he's already caused to himself and the people around him.
Delete“Then something happened. I don't even like to talk about it. " (Pg. 191)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me. It stood out to be because as a reader I felt that Holden was at a point that he could open up about anything at this point in the book. This quote also stood out to me because Holden had began to open up about his family and his life and by him saying this it made me wonder what could have happened to him.
I think the "something" that happened to Holden has to do with him thinking about the future. I say this because before Holden fell asleep he was thinking about what Mr. Antolini said about him finding himself and about the future causing him to "fall" because he is scared about it. Mr. Antolini looking and touching Holden has to do with this idea of "catching" him from falling and destroying his future.
I don't really agree with you. I think the 'something' is literally when Mr. Antolini started touching him and its not the future that makes him not want to talk about it but the past. I feel like he feels betrayed and disgusted that someone he trusted so much could have tried to take advantage of him like that. I also think it reminded him of the elevator guy and how he beat him up after he trusted him with something even if it was something as little as some money. That quote also reminded me of The Perks of Being A Wallflower because Charlie, the main character in book, was also taken advantage of by the person he trusted a lot. Overall, I think Holden had a problem with Mr. Antonlini taking advantage of him, especially because Holden seems like he has a hard time trusting people.
Delete“The he said, ‘…The man falling isn’t permitted to feel or hear himself hit the bottom. He just keeps falling and falling. The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn’t supply them with. Or they thought their own environment couldn’t supply them with. So they gave up looking. They gave it up before they ever really even got started. You follow me?’” Pg.187
ReplyDeleteThis quote interested me because I felt like it not only described Holden perfectly but the whole book. The whole book was about this teenager, named Holden, who was trying to find some source of happiness. This quote is really saying that the whole time Holden was looking for happiness he wasn’t really trying to look for how he could change his life to be happy but how he bad he wanted to go back to the past because that was, what he believed to be, the only time he would be happy. I also feel like the quote describes the way he doesn’t change when it says that, “He just keeps falling and falling”. The part of the quote that says “so they give up” represents those times when he had suicidal thoughts and wanted to give up. It turns out that he never “really even got started” looking for his source of happiness. Towards the end of chapter 25 when it says, “…I felt so damn happy...” it shows that he actually started to look and his source of happiness was his sister. You know this because when his sister starts to give up and stop looking for her happiness like Holden did, he got really upset. All in all, Holden seems to find his source of happiness and stops falling.
"He was pretty young, not much older than my brother, D.B., and you could kid around with him without loosing your respect for him. He was the one that finally picked up that boy that jumped out of the window I told you about, James Castle." (pg 174)
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that Holden has a lot of respect for Mr. Antolini. It is a very good thing that he did for this boy, but Holden is very impressed. It makes me wonder if this goes with the thought of how Holden associates himself with kids. This could remind him of when Allie was dying, and no one could help him because there is no cure to cancer, but Mr. Antolini helps James Castle and carries him to the infirmary, Holden says "He didn't even give a damn if his coat got all bloody". Maybe Holden is also jealous of Mr. Antolini's selflessness, Holden is always thinking about himself and girls and other silly things, but Mr. Antolini did this very heroic thing. Also, later in the chapter Holden talks to Pheobe about how he has a fantasy of himself rescuing little kids before they run off a cliff while playing, this stems from hearing the little kid on the street singing the catcher in the rye song.
i agree but i think that first holden thinks he has a lot in common with mr.antolini like how they both think that d.b. should not go to hollywood and how they both like literature . but also how holden looks up to mr. antolini and wants to be like him such as carrying the kid and him being a hero he likes him and why didn't he say he likes mr. antolini when pheobe asked him what he likes.
Delete" I think that one of these days, he said, you're going to have to find out where you want to go. and then you've got to start going there. but immediately. you can't afford to lose a minute. not you". pg. 188
ReplyDeleteThis quote struck me because it showed the reader how much Mr. Antolini cared for his former student's future in which he states what Holden should apply himself to once he figures out where he really needs to go. it shows that Mr. Antolini understands what Holden is going through and wants to help him with his advice which i think Holden didn't really concentrate or even listen to what he was being told because as he states he was very tired and sleepy. Mr. Antolini's advice may be helpful to Holden as in pg. 189 he states "once you have a fair idea of where you want to go. your first move will be to apply yourself to school.you'll have to, you're a student whether the idea appeals to you or not.you're in love with knowledge". this quote may help Holden find himself in terms of where he needs to go and when he finds out, he needs to apply himself to school which this speech from Mr. Antolini can help Holden be touched or influenced to work harder in school in my perspective. but yet Holden lacks concentration at this point and doesn't really know what he's being told, all he knows is that he's tired and like he said he just wanted to yawn and to to sleep.
"Then I took my hunting hat out of my pocket and gave it to her." PG. 180
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me the most. We've discussed in class, that Holden's red hunting hat was an important symbol in the book. It gives him comfort and warmth. I was sort of shocked when he gave it to Phoebe. Not that she didn't deserve it, but because it was something that was present from the beginning of the book. In previous chapters he told us that he liked it. He put it on to give him warmth. When he gave it to Phoebe, it was like he gave her a part of him. His comfort, his warmth, his caring self. Maybe giving his hat to his sister, is a step out of his comfort to find himself, and will stop hiding under a shelter.
"yes i do. yes i do... you don't like millions of things."(169)
ReplyDeletethis stood out to me because this whole book is supposed to be his voice and it is supposed to be absolutely honest and it seems to me that he is lying to us and that is suprising to me. also when he couldn't think of one thing he likes also confused me because first it doesn't seem like he likes anything but he has to like something. second because he talks about Pheobe every page and say how she make him laugh so why didn't he say her or even jane or anything else like that. and third because he ended up just thinking about people that are dead like allie and james castel and thats fine but he didn't really know castle so why would he say that.
I agree that Holden is lying to us the whole book. The whole book itself is in his perspective, so anything he says could be a lie. As in the elevator scene when he thinks he hears $5, but it could actually have been something else. Maybe he isn't lying to himself, but to us he might be twisting the truth from what he remembers and not what actually happened. But in this quote I actually don't think he is lying to us. A person can not be able to choose his favorite in life, mainly if they have such a dark perspective on the world as Holden. When Holden likes something or someone he REALLY likes them. The reason he probably can't choose is because when he loves someone like Phoebe or Jane or eve his red hunting cap, he loves them all so much he can't even admit to himself how much he loves that idem and doesn't realize how psychologically it relates to him.
Delete"Eight dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. Then all of a sudden, I started to cry." (Pg.179)
ReplyDelete- This stood out to me because he feels bad about the fact that hes taking money from his little sister that's six years younger than him because rather than her giving him money, he should be the one to give her money because she is still just a child. In return Holden gives her his red hunting hat which he uses to hide his true self. I wonder why he decided to give her his hunting hat that comforts him. Phoebe seems to be the only one who can actually break him and have a strong relationship with him where he can just talk about anything and be himself. Phoebe actually helps him think of his life or sometimes just put a smile on his face. Another reason why this quote is significant is because Holden seems to be thinking about the future because of Phoebe. He probably thinks that he isn't going to be successful in life for taking money from his ten year old sister and what kind of person he is going to be. What kind of person is he? Rather than being all judgmental. Is he ever going to at least try to change or just think about how messed up he is by drinking and smoking up his misery assuming everything will be alright?
"'This fall I think you're riding for--it's a special kind of fall, a horrible kind. The man falling isn't permitted to feel or hear himself hit bottom. He just keeps falling and falling.'" (page 243 in my book)
ReplyDeleteI think when Mr. Antolini says this to Holden, he's trying to warn him for the future. There are different types of falling: the kind where you know someone will be there to catch you at the bottom, and the kind where you're unsure of when you'll hit or how long it'll take. Holden's falling the second way. He doesn't know where he's going in life, and it's not safe for him. Mr. Antolini doesn't want Holden to end up getting hurt when he isn't able to get anywhere in life. He's disappointed that Holden hasn't been able to see prior to now that he needs to face the reality of things and shape up on his own. He's trying to point Holden in the right direction before he goes and falls deeper and deeper into something he might not be able to dig his way out of. When Mr. Antolini says, "The man falling isn't permitted to feel or hear himself hit bottom," he's trying to say that he doesn't want Holden losing sight of himself during the midst of this all. There's a point in the fall where things get so dark that you can't even see your own hand in front of your face anymore, and he doesn't want Holden to reach that point. In the simplest, most blatant way, Mr. Antolini is telling Holden that he needs to start trying to fix himself before he gets to the point where he won't be able to any longer.
I agree. I like the expression you used because i also think he that he is unsure about his life and that no one is under you to pick him up. I also agree that Mr. Antolini wants to help Holden, he wants him beware of what will happen and how it goes. I also think he is trying to almost tell Holden what path he should take but doesn't want to make it seem like Holden doesn't have a choice.
Delete"I guess I don't like it when somebody sticks to the point all the time."(183)
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't he like it when people stick to the point ?
I think he doesn't like it because since he didn't pass the oral expression and the ones who did would always stick to the point. I think that since they told he failed the oral expression that he is the type of person to not stick to the point. I think he's trying to make him self feel good for not passing the class. He's always try's to make himself look good but he just bluffs because i know that in the inside he doesn't believe himself as much as he make it seem on the outside. It is phony of him to try and trick his mind into thinking he did a good deed by failing oral expression.
I disagree with you in the sense that I think Holden’s hatred towards “staying on point” is much more than just failing a class. Although failing a class may lead to you despising anything affiliated with that class, I think the genuine reason behind Holden’s annoyance towards “staying on point” is because Holden does not like the idea of having restrictions. “Staying on point,”—if you think about it, it’s one of the most “phoniest” things in the world. Why should people be obligated to “staying on point” when their mind is genuinely wandering off on infinite directions? People should speak their minds. They shouldn’t have to worry about limiting what they want to say simply because it is not on point.
DeleteQuote: “I know he’s dead! Don’t you think I know that? I can still like him, though, can’t I? Just because somebody’s dead, you don’t just stop liking them, for God’s sake-compassionate Holden is since he talked about how we shouldn't forget about someone just because they have passed away. In addition, I chose this quote especially if they were about a thousand times nicer than the people you that that’re alive and all. Old Phoebe didn't say anything.”~ (Salinger 171)
ReplyDeleteI was astounded by this quote because it is one of the few quotes that really show Holden’s personality. This quote not only shocked me but it also changed the way I felt towards Holden. Before this quote, I thought Holden was a conceded phony since a few chapters ago when he met the nuns Holden insisted on helping the nuns with their suitcases with a phony smile when he really didn't want to do nothing with them since, he felt disgusted by their cheap suitcases. Furthermore, I was astonished by this quote since it shows how much Holden cares about people that get his approval since he is never going to stop caring about them whether they are still alive or dead. This quote also stood out to me since it made me wonder why Holden still cares about someone who is now dead. I know this is crude in a way but if I were in his shoes I would have moved on and made a new friend since even I was fond of that person I would want to move forward and not stay in the past. Not only that but Holden keeps living in the past and refuses to create bonds like the one with Allie and that is hurting him. Like I said before if I were Holden I would move on since I’m pretty sure Allie would have wanted me(Holden) to move on and make new friends to be more happy. In conclusion, this quote stood out because it’s confusing since Holden says that Allie was a thousand times nicer than anyone alive but how would he know if all he does is judge and reject people and that’s causes everyone to not be kind-hearted towards Holden.
"'I don't want to scare you,' he said, 'but I can very clearly see you dying nobly, one way or another, for some highly unworthy cause.'" (Page 188)
ReplyDeleteThrough this quote, Mr. Antolini is implying the idea that Holden Caulfield’s life will hit a rough end if his inability to find motivation persists. If Holden lives his life, which he has, moaning over the most trivial incidents, then he may never have a moment in which he realizes who he is or, more importantly, what he wants from his life. Moreover, Holden's lack of motivation may lead his life to inevitable failure. Mr. Antolini states, when the moment comes for Holden to finally discover the things that he is passionate about, he will have to act on impulse with all the time that he has obliviously wasted. Holden is taking time for granted, and one day, every lost second will hit him hard.
"'i do! thats where you're wrong-that's exactly where you're wrong! why the hell do you have to say that?' i said. boy was she depressing me." pg. 169
ReplyDeletei wonder why Holden is depressed and touchy when phoebe tells him that the problem with him is he doesn't like anything. Holden seems to want to reject the idea and argues with phoebe but when she asks him whats one thing he likes he tries to reroute the question to avoid answering her. he keeps telling the reader that he isn't able to concentrate when its obvious there isn't anything he likes. the one thing he says is allie and he tells the readers the nuns and a student he barely knew. he seems to mainly like people that he has known from years back. he doesn't seem to like anything new besides the people he judges quickly, he likes Allie, Jane, and Phoebe. these are people that he knew from his early childhood but he almost never said things about the people from his earlier schools or from pencey. the thing the thing that stuck out when he said these things is that he took a while to find something to say. this shows his discomfort to when people say things about him that are true but things that he doesn't want to hear.
I agree, I feel as if Holden wants to reject the ideas that Phoebe is bringing up because he doesn’t want to admit himself he doesn’t like anything. Holden also never really thinks deeply about himself and never really looks inside. Holden judges everyone in a very detailed way but never judges himself. By this I mean Holden never really thinks about how other people may look at him or see him. He doesn’t do this because he doesn’t care what people think about him. Because Holden doesn’t care about he looks to other people. There’s no reason for Holden to think about how he really is.
Delete"if you want to know the truth" (pg. 171)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Throughout the book is Holden lying to us? How can we tell what the truth is? When he says this is he meaning that the rest isn't the truth? Why is he assuming we care? What does the truth mean to Holden? Why does he always lie to others?
Answer: Holdens perspective on the world probably changes his morals. Not only does Holden admit to lying, but also shows examples of when he has lied in the book. Since the book is in his perspective we will never truly know the truth, even if Holden believes it is the truth from what he remembers. Holden hasn't really had a guardian or mentor to show him whats wrong and right in life. In addition to that, Holden has experienced some life changing moments that have really impacted his physiological state of mind. Holden has created his own morals based on his life experience which is probably why he acts the way he does when he judges people or lies. To be honest even if the book was a lie I would be very interested in it because it still shows his way of thinking, even if everything that happened is a lie, the lie he creates show his inner feeling or imagination. Holden refers to the truth often in the book, usually when he wants to reveal something, but isn't he revealing things throughout the whole book? We will never really know the truth, but I believe anything he says as long as it is a memory and not recorded facts, one can never know the truth because they weren't there themselves, and the different interpretations in the world from different people, also change how facts can be altered into memories and beliefs.
"It was a helluva lot easier to get out of the house than it was getting in, for some reason. For one thing, i didn't give much of a damn anymore if they caught me. I really didn't. I figured if they caught me, they caught me. I almost wish they did, in a way." (180)
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that Holden WANTS to get caught. Why would he want to get caught? One possible answer to this question is that maybe Holden wants to come home to his family. He's been at 4 different boarding schools so he's never home. He came back from Pencey early to go back to New York, there must have been a reason. Holden wants his family to catch him. He wants to go back to his house, his room, even if it means probably getting yelled at by his parents, since they'll find out he got kicked out of Pencey. It kind of bothers me that Holden would WANT to get caught. I always feel like he's making the wrong decision. Think about it: Was it really smart to come back from Pencey early? I mean he already got kicked out, he was already coming home on wednesday, it wasn't really a good idea to leave to New York. Now Holden's broke and he's at his parent's house without them knowing. on top of that, he wants to get caught?! Sometimes I think Holden doesn't even think about what he's doing.
“…there was old James Castle laying right on the stone steps and all. He was dead and his teeth, and blood, were all over the place, and nobody would even go near him.” (pg. 170)
ReplyDeleteI chose this line because I think it has some significance if it was one of the 2 things Holden thought of when Phoebe asked Holden what he likes a lot. I spent a long time just thinking about why Holden would think back to this moment when he’s supposed to be thinking of something positive. I feel as if Holden thought about this because it had such a big impact on him he doesn’t even understand what it means. Literally watching someone die would obviously have a humungous impact. Holden probably thought back to this moment because he can’t find anything he really likes so instead of finding something he enjoys a lot, he thought back to a moment he really dislikes. Later, Holden explains how the boys that caused James Castle to jump, “all they did” was expel them and “they didn’t even go to jail.” Holden was probably upset how these boys can get away with basically murder and found corruption in society.
In a way I agree yet disagree with you. I don't think Holden willingly went back to that time because he couldn't think of anything, I think his mind went back to that time because the fact that he is so depressed and he sees the world as a sad, phony place and that is making it difficult for him to even be able to think of something happy. Yet, i agree with you when you say that he was impacted by that because it was an act of suicide and that may have traumatized him in a way.
Delete"This fall I think you're riding for- it's a special kind of fall, a horrible kind. The man falling isn't permitted to feel or hear himself hit bottom. He just keeps falling and falling." page 187
ReplyDeleteIsn't this how depression must feel?
This quote has me wondering if this is how Holden must feel since he is depressed. I have had friends that have been depressed and I can see that they always look very upset and they have shared personal situations with me and in a way this somewhat sounds like something that one of my friends told me. She told me that being depressed is like feeling pain everyday and never being happy and just going through so many emotions, yet you still have no emotion at all. It's a bit similar to this because Mr. Antolini says that they don't feel or hear themselves hit bottom, they just keep falling and falling yet, isn't that how Holden feels? Holden just keeps falling and falling more into his depression and it just gets so bad to the point that he considers suicide, yet he doesn't really like to face the fact that he is at a very low point in his life and it just surprised me that, without even realizing or meaning to say it, Mr. Antolini put Holden's life and his struggle with depression into words.