1)
Write a response, choosing a line and explaining it's significance to
you. Please remember: no plot re-cap! Share your analysis, make
connections to the world, ask questions, and deepen
your thinking-- this one is up to you where you want to go with your response, but please make sure that your writing has depth to it. What meaning does this passage reveal? A
3-sentence blog post is not sufficient!
2) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post! Answer their questions, or pose a question of your own!
Try some of these sentence starters:
"I wonder why..."
"I'm surprised that..."
"I don't understand..."
"I was struck by..."
"It's interesting that..."
"I'm bothered that..."
"The central issue here seems to be..."
"If I were a character inside this text..."
"I certainly knew I was home, though. Our foyer has a funny smell that doesn't smell like anyplace else. I don't know what the hell it is. It isn't cauliflower and it isn't perfume- I don't know what the hell it is- but you always know you're home."(158)
ReplyDeleteI was honestly struck by this piece of text. Previously in the book, I felt that Holden was this lost soul that just wonders from one boarding school to the next. I thought that he didn't know the true meaning of home. This text proved me wrong. It shows me that Holden still remembers the distinct scent of his home. This means that his house must have some significance to him. Knowing this really warms my heart because it makes me think of Holden as a child and some of the memories that he might have had at home. This is why I was stunned and delightfully surprised by this piece of text.
I'm not sure, I think he's using the term 'home' loosely here. I think until we hear his thoughts more we can't be entirely sure about the significance of the house he grew up him
Delete-Alana Martin
I agree with both of you. I would say that we don't have enough information to know about the house Holden grew up in but at the same time, he remembers what the smell of is home is like. This shows us that Holden still remembers his home and his childhood memories in it. He could be considering to stay home, but we don't know for sure yet.
DeleteI disagree with you Alana. Everyone, even Holden, has a significant thing that reminds them of their home. We can't be sure about everything Holden is telling us, but we have to assume he's a little like us.
Delete"All the visitors could get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go somewhere nice for dinner- Everybody except Allie. I couldn't stand it." (pp156)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is getting mad at other visitors for the they can do and Allie can't?
Possible Answer: I'm not sure if 'mad' is the right word for the question I proposed but I can't think of a better one, so for now it'll have to do. I think maybe he's upset because a little kid(Allie) is dead and they're going to go to dinner. Maybe it's the fact that they're going to do something so normal after coming from such a sad and depressing place.
I disagree with you because i think its more of the fact that all these people get to live life and go out to dinner and live and Allie's life was cut short at such a young age. I think it just makes him mad that all these people get the chance to be whoever/whatever they want and to him they are all phonies and this real person he knows (Allie) wasn't even given the chance in the first place to try all these new things and just live life and enjoy all that life has to offer.
DeleteI actually agree with you Lindsay that I feel that Holden is not necessarily mad about the fact that Allie isn't going out to dinner. Rather the fact that Allie will never be able to experience going out to dinner or hanging with friends, things that people take for granted. I also feel that Holden is upset that people don't have enough decency to at least stay while it's raining and pay their respect, but rather rush off to do something that will always be their.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete" When I finally got down off the radiator and went out to the hat-check room, I was crying and all. I don't know why, but I was. I guess it was because I was feeling so damn depressed and lonesome." (153)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is Holden crying if throughout the book, he's been acting all careless and tough?
Answer: In this quote, it shows us that Holden is feeling more depressed and alone as time passes by. I was struck by how he cries because he always acts so careless and tough when there's actually a different, softer person inside. Him crying shows us that he is very disheartened that he doesn't have any friends and might stay like this forever. Holden tries really hard to make a friend, but everyone rejects him. Due to this, he gets very drunk and doesn't have a place to sleep. He said that he didn't know where he was going to sleep yet and this is really sad to me because it basically shows us that Holden is alone and "homeless." At this point in the book, Holden should go back home and tell his parents everything. He would at least be with his family, especially Phoebe, and won't feel lonesome anymore.
Tomas Benincasa Reade
DeleteI agree.
I feel that he his so desperate at this point, and he knows that he can't spend his whole life like this. He is hiding the truth from his family and loved ones, and he is spending his time drinking and smoking his money away with strangers who don't even like him. I think at this point, his perspective changes, and he realizes he has to go home and deal with his wrongs before he screws things up even worse. I think that he feels that his life is crashing down on him, and that he needs some support to get him through this pat of his life.
I agree with you both because Holden is like a person lokking for something that is not there. He has been on his own to long and has begun to feel the affects of loneliness.
DeleteTomas Benincasa Reade
ReplyDelete"I felt swell, for a change. I didn't even feel like i was getting pneumonia or anything anymore. It just felt good."
I looked up what pneumonia is, and i found that it meant "Pneumonia is an inflammatory condition of the lung—affecting primarily the microscopic air sacs known as alveoli. It is usually caused by infection with viruses or bacteria and less commonly other microorganisms, certain drugs and other conditions such as autoimmune diseases.Typical symptoms include a cough, chest pain, fever, and difficulty breathing" (found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia)
When i first read this piece of text, it stood out to me. I think that he finally feels comfortable for once in the book. Throughout the book, he feels like he is lost and hasn't found his home, mostly because of other people and how they make him feel. I think that now that he is around people he trusts and cares about, he feels that he can actually have a place without being judged. I feel that his arriving home would have ended disastrously because it would be the first time that His parents find out he was kicked out of yet another school. I found that it was actually a very relieving experience. Especially when he had his talk with Phoebe.
I think that in the end, this quote shows that he feels that he truly does have a place in new york, and he isn't all alone. I think that In the beginning, he found himself meandering about New York, getting drunk and trying to meet people so that he didnt feel so bad about himself, and so that he wasn't so blue.
I agree with you here Tomas. I think that finally coming home and seeing Phoebe was definitely a relieving experience for Holden. It showed him that no matter how bad things were someone would always be there for him, like Phoebe. When she found out that he got kicked out of school, she didn't judge him for it she just said that their father was going to kill him. I think that being with Phoebe makes Holden feel happy and at home again and maybe being away from her is one of the reasons he is so depressed. I think this because Holden has lost Allie already and i think that he would die himself if he lost Phoebe to, so by being away from her most of the time, he doesn't ever get to spend time with her. Then if something did happen to her, I don't think he would ever forgive himself for not spending as much time with her.
Delete“Then something terrible happened just as I got in the park. I dropped old Phoebe’s record. It broke into about fifty pieces. It was in a big envelope and all, but it broke anyway. I damn near cried, it made me feel so terrible, but all I did was, I took the pieces out of the envelope and put them in my coat pocket. They weren’t any good for anything, but I didn’t feel like throwing them away. Then I went in the park. Boy, it was dark.” (154)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: How does he feel about this?
Possible Answer: Reading this I was very confused about how Holden felt. At first when he was saying, “It was in a big envelope and all, but it broke anyway,” I got the sense he was hopeful and sad. But then at the end when he moved on and said, “Boy, it was dark,” it felt like he didn’t care. This is Phoebe, though—one of the few people in his life who he loves and has a true relationship with—so wouldn’t he care?
I kind of disagree with you here, Lucie. I think when the record broke, he also broke as well. I mean, yeah, it's odd how he kept on going with the sentence, but I don't think that means anything. You can't just bawl and then act like nothing happened. Holden may be a confusing character, but it will be just way too abnormal if he did that. Humans are humans, despite how they cover it up.
Delete“I’ve lived in New York all my life, and I know Central Park like the back of my hand, because I used to roller-skate there all the time and ride my bike when I was a kid, but I had the most terrific trouble finding that lagoon that night.”
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote is showing that Holden is no longer the same person as he was. He is changing, and even though he doesn’t like to admit it, he is growing up. When your little it is easy to remember small things like parts of the park because your young and they don’t have other things to remember or worry about. When Holden was young and he liked roller-skating and biking through the park, so it was easy for him to remember where the lagoon in the park was. But now, Holden is worrying about himself getting kicked out of school, Phoebe, Jane, what people think of him and so much more that he no longer has the time nor space to remember these other small details. Holden may think that this is a bad thing, but its not, its human nature.
I definitely agree with you. It's almost erie how much Holden is seemingly trying to hint at the fact that he's changed. It's also a very straight forward way to say it. "I don't remember how to do something that used to be second nature to me- I've changed.." I feel like Holden would come out and just say it, but maybe he doesn't know himself. He's just saying it, and it is ironic that he says that, because we can dig deeper, and maybe solve why he's lost his way......
Delete"I was concealing the fact that I was a wounded sonuvabitch.."
ReplyDeleteOn my march of disproving Holden, I present the next phony quote! He's actually saying here that he's trying to not look hurt, trying to look strong, and he's being phony! That right there is called insecurity. I think at one point he's going to acknowledge how phony he is, or at least I hope he does. He is literally being everything he stands against. Holden is probably the biggest hypocrite that I've ever known to be. I think that when he addresses his shortcomings, which will probably be near the end of the book, I think he will finally stop caring about phony and real, and in that process actually become the real person he always seems to be claiming to be.
I also think that he feels so broken up about losing everything that he "cared" about and I think he's finally realizing that his life is not what he wanted it to be, and he's finally getting a wakeup call. I think that holding his side is a representation that his life is at the lowest depression possible. I think this is the climax where he is going to start to have a turning point, and maybe start over.
Delete"People never give your message to anybody." (p.149)
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me because it isn't the first time we come across a sentence with this exact structure. On page 9, he says "people never notice anything". Or on page 37, again he adds to conclude the paragraph "People never believe you". I feel like he generalizes things a lot. He seems to see the world almost in black and white. For example, the bus driver didn't believe he'd throw out the snowball he brought aboard the bus so to him, no one ever believes you. He has a hard time connecting with anyone on a deeper level and I feel like he might be a bit of a misanthropic with the way he sees people as unreliable and all the same. I guess I can relate with the fact that sometimes people do let you down but not always. However, except for a few people and kids, no one can live up to his expectations. He's lost and he doesn't try to see behind how people seem to be. Maybe if he did, he'd notice that not everyone is so bad. These quotes "people never..." are short and concise but they do mean a great deal.
This was a quote also stood out to me, and I completely agree with all of your ideas about it. I think that this can also relate to how Holden tends to automatically judge people, or assume the worst in them, because he thinks they will judge and assume the worst about him. I feel that because Holden is so afraid of being judged by others, he often tends to believe that others are in fact judging him, and believes generalized statements like “people never believe you,” or “people never give your message to anybody.” Additionally, I think that maybe other people in Holden’s life tend to not believe him or pay attention to him, like perhaps his parents.
Delete"I started thinking how old Phoebe would feel if I got pneumonia and died. It was a childish way to think, but I couldn't stop myself. She'd feel really bad if something like that happened. She likes me a lot. She's quite fond with me. She really is. Anyway, I couldn't get that off my mind, so finally what I figured I'd do, I figured I'd sneak home and see her, in case I died and all." (p156)
ReplyDeleteWhile i read this line i was wondering about why he kept talking about dying in this chapter and why his "dying wish" would be to see phoebe. I also wonder is Holden thinks the only person who would care if he died was Phoebe because he specifically refers to Phoebe being upset not his parent, D.B, Sally or Jane. I think that a big reason why he wont commit suicide is because of Phoebe because he cares about her too much to hurt her. This probably plays a part in the whole book and is maybe what keeps him from actually committing suicide. I think a lot of people would care if Holden died. I mean not a lot of people but not ONLY Phoebe, I think it would affect his whole family a lot and all the different people he's men in boarding school. Even if they weren't friends they would still care.
Holden's depression leaves in a sort of way, when he finally sees Phoebe. He sobered up, and even risked getting caught by his parents just to see her. He saved the pieces from the broken record for her, and she wasn't even mad when he gave it to her. Holden wouldn't have committed suicide, in my opinion anyway, because he was only one or two days away from Wednesday; where he could see her and the rest of his family all the time.
Delete"Anyway, I kept worrying that I was getting pneumonia, with all those hunks of ice in my hair, and that I was going to die. I felt sorry as hell for my mother and father." (155)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is so confusing to me. In fact, everything Holden says is confusing to me. He's such an odd character. I mean, here he says that he's worried about dying, but throughout the book, he acts like such a tough guy to the point where he wouldn't care if he died. He once annoyed the living out of Stradlater and ended up getting hurt, but he didn't care. But here he is, worried that he'll die of pneumonia. Also, he said he felt sorry as hell for his mother and father if he died. Yes, I understand that his brother had died and they wouldn't be able to handle him dying. But why is he okay with not coming home? Is he not worried that his parents could possibly think he's dead by now? What if Pencey had already called his parents to check up on Holden when they realized he's not home? But Holden doesn't seem to care; he only seems to care about very few people, and blocking everybody, including his family and people he doesn't even know, out of his life.
I agree that he can get confusing but I think that Holden himself is confused. He contradicts himself often and seems to not be too sure as to who he is and who he should be. But he does think of death a bit more lightly than most. He is still trying to cope with Allie's death but he speaks of death as if it wasn't anything special, just another part of life. I agree when you say that he blocks out many people because he doesn't want to try and figure out who they are since he has enough figuring out to do about himself.
DeleteUyen, to answer your question, Holden was just scared of the fact of his mother having to go through another one of her kids dying again. He felt sort of sorry about his Mom never getting over Allie's death, and i guess he is trying to his spare his mom and dad the trouble of having to deal with him after such a tragic loss.I also do believe that the struggle that his mom has had with th death of Allie has stopped him from even commiting suicide himself. In a sense, throughout the story, Holden seems very addressed and even admits to having suicidal thoughts when he said he wanted to jump out of the hotel window. He still cares for his mom, to an extent, and does not want to put his family through another mourning process when they are still in the middle of another one. Also, Holden is just as confused as you are. Just go with it.
Delete" Then, finally, I woke her up...... "Holden!" she said right away. She put her arms around my neck and all. She was very affectionate.I mean, shes quite affectionate, for a child. Sometimes, she's even too affectionate. I sort of gave her a kiss, and she said "Whenja get home?" She was glad as hell to see me. You could tell " (pg 161)
ReplyDeleteFINALLY. It feels like an amazing relief to the reader as much as it feels to Holden to finally be able to see Phoebe. After hearing so much about her and how she is such an amazing little girl, and Holden's statements seem to be proven by the actions and the overall levity and relief that Phoebe brings to the book, which has only sulked into the deepest annoyances of Holden. Her innocence kind of makes sitting through all of Holden's Phony list and moping worth the wait. You can tell toward the end of the book worth the wait. Though, seeing such a bright positive and happy character like Phoebe in this book with such a mopy and depressed character like Holden really made me question their roles in the books when it comes to the terms of Protagonist, Antagonist, and the roles that they play in the story. First, we have to identify what Holden truly is. During the beginning of the book, we can assume that , Holden, is the protagonist of the story, because of his status as the narrator and as the main character of the story. Though, as we dive more into the story, we have no idea what the main goal of Holden is as he molds himself into the identity of an Anti-Hero, and it takes us a while to finally uncover the true goal of this journey that Holden has it to find himself, just like any other teenager would want to do. We as the readers identify the story as a coming of age story and there is evidence provided throughout the story whenever Holden shares his feelings towards many aspects of life (ex. Religion, Wealth/Status, Innocence,Sexuality, i.e.). So, since the main goal is Holden trying to find himself, the Antagonist, or the person trying to stop Holden from completing his goal is.... himself. I mean, throughout the book, Holden seems to be like the only one stopping himself from realizing his true self, always supressing his emotions and thoughts, and thus kind of making him the antagonist as well as the anti-hero of this story. But, i also do feel that there is a protagonist in this story. The innocence and purity of both Phoebe and Allie kind of keep pushing Holden to keep going foward throughout the story. Thus, I do believe that Allie and Phoebe in a sense deserve soem entitlement to the storys protagonist. But, in the end, we as the reader have to understand that this book is too "real" to have a "good guy" and a "bad guy" in a sense. Like I had said in my previous post, this book kind of summarizes all of the storys that could ever be written about coming of age and that transaction from kid to adult, and the fact is, in real life, there are no "bad guys and good guys" there are only conflicts with people who have conflicting views. Therefore, making tho story, kind of break the norm when it comes to a protagonist and antagonist, and even an anti-hero, even though Holden is as anti-hero you can get. Finally, to sum up my ideas, this book and all of its point have truly highlighted the coming of age part of everyones life and in which the way the author depicts these certain characters really help boost that message, and make Catcher In The Rye all the more revolutionary. As we near the end of the book, I would just like to conclude all of these ideas, and the ideas of finding oneself, and hope we address it in class.
"'I like Allie.' I said. 'And I like what I'm doing right now. Sitting with you." (171)
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised that he only said that he like his brother Allie. I think that even though he said he liked sitting with Phoebe, that Phoebe felt a little hurt that he put his dead brother before her. I think that Holden doesn't really say things with people's feelings in mind, and I think that this hurt her. I think this because after he said this, she said Allie didn't count because he was dead. She also didn't say anything but Dad is going to kill you after he said that Allie was something he really loved. I think that Holden doesn't put too much thought into what he says all the time, and that's why I think he ends up hurting the people he loves most of all.
I absolutely agree with you here. I also think that Phoebe might have been hurt by that. But she might have just brushed it off as well because she's used to Holden being this way.
DeleteI agree Abby, that Phoebe was hurt by what Holden said. I find it really confusing that every time we hear descriptions of Phoebe they are positive, and now we see Holden in a way excluding her.
Delete"I'd thought probably I'd get Pneumonia and die. I started picturing millions of jerks coming to my funeral and all." (page 154)
ReplyDeleteI was very interested by this line because it really captured Holden's state of mind during this time. What I mean by this is that you can see how Holden would go so far to create an entire event of something so dark. Throughout this page, I saw many events where Holden was very upset. He explains how he's feeling very blue and how he wanted to cry after dropping Phoebe's record. I think this lead up to the top of his "emotional roller-coaster". Another way that this showed me that Holden is very upset is because every other time he talks about death it is about Allie and it is always a sad tone, whether its smashing the windows or wishing he could have included him in things. Now He's thinking about his own death and funeral and to me its a sign of sadness.
" Boy, I sat at that goddamn bar till around one o'clock or so, getting drunk as a bastard. I could hardly see straight."
ReplyDeleteEven if he says he isn't, Holden is an alcoholic. Whenever he feels really depressed, he decides to drink away his sorrows at a club, or bar. He always gets into some situation when he goes to a bar, or club. Like when he dance with the girls, or how he called for Sunny after he got back from a bar. Him drinking and being in bars all the time, is probably what makes him so depressed. He always asks for some type of alcohol when he is out. For example, when he went out with Sally, he asked or a scotch, but always ends up getting a Coke because of his age. He also wasted all of his money on alcohol, this can be inferred from when he talked about being in Central Park with two dollars on him; also he was drunk at the time. I think that Holden would be a lot happier if he didn't drink at a bar every night.
I agree that Holden is wasting a lot of his money on alcohol, and that he is starting to depend on it. Every time he's gone out, he's had or tried to have a drink. Whenever he drinks, it's because he has nothing else to do and he's depressed. He's also been smoking a lot, so much that he notices he's run out of cigarettes when he checks his pockets while visiting Phoebe. I think the drinking and smoking have led Holden deeper into depression, and if he did something besides that, he would be in a better place.
Delete"I sat there on D.B.'s desk and read the whole notebook. It didn't take me long, and I can read that kind of stuff, some kid's notebook, Phoebe's or anybody's, all day and all night long. Kid's notebooks kill me," (161).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because I thought it was a great example of Holden's connection to kids. In the past few chapters we've noticed this connection, when he saw the kid walking on the street obliviously and when Holden described the museum to us. He loves watching kids who don't care about the world around them, because it shows him that not everyone cares so much about everything that the adults care about. I think part of him wishes he could still be like the young innocent child he once was, and Phoebe's notebook is one way to pretend that he is. He immerses himself into her notebook, and in doing so he is putting himself back in the world of a child.
I strongly agree with your idea. I agree that reading her notebook is a way for him to reminisce being a kid. I also think he finds kid writing interesting, it doesn't really have to follow many rules at that age. It's a freer form of writing then an older kids so I think Holden likes to read Phoebe's writing because it amuses him. I think he enjoys seeing Phoebe writing nonsense in her notebook because it makes him feel as though she hasn't grown up yet and that makes him happy.
Delete“Boy, when you're dead, they really fix you up. I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? (155)
ReplyDeleteI thought that this statement really said a lot about Holden. He doesn't want an ordinary funeral with his family there and flowers, he want a plain and simple dump into a river. This shows I think how Holden is really not an extravagant or ordinary guy. He doesn't want a "phony" funeral with relatives or stupid flowers. I think of course this shows something about Holden but I think in this quote J.D Salinger is really talking about himself. When given fame he retreated to a simple life and I think that shows in this quote through Holden. I think Salinger would have also wanted a very simple funeral, like getting dropped in the river, instead of a big one. J.D Salinger shows his feeling through Holden at certain points in the book and I think this is definitely one of those times.
I think that more than this quote shows the fact that Holden is not extravagant, it shows us something similar to when he said that if he could play piano, he would play in a closet. He doesn't want masses to see him, and interpret him and what he wants. In a way, a funeral is similar to a performance to him, and he just wants to skip that, rather than have phonies crying over him, and deciding that he would like it to be given flowers every week. I'm sure lots of people would love to know that their families will leave them flowers when their dead, but Holden doesn't want his body to be left behind and mourned over.
Delete" No home to go to . No kidding-you need a manager?" (152).
ReplyDeleteI was struck by this line because when you think of home, it's a place where you live but it's also a place where you feel love and are comfortable. When Holden said he didn't have a home I automatically thought that he didn't have people to go home to that would be happy to see him or he felt love there. Then I also thought that Phoebe is there and he talks so much about her and she is just so great, that he would be happy to go there and see her that even if his parents are not home that his little Phoebe is there. Also when he said he has no home I think he also meant he has nowhere where he feels 100% comfortable and loved, because when he goes home he knows he will be judged and reprimanded for getting kicked out of school and just get sent somewhere else. Probably he also feels that since he is always be sent somewhere that his house is not really his home but just a place of residence.
I agree with you I also think that home is where you feel loved and comfortable. Holden truly felt at home when woke Phoebe up he felt loved and comfortable and not judge he didn't have to put his his cap on and put his walls up like every where else he went.
Delete"Then something terrible happened just as I got in the park. I dropped old Phoebe's record. It broke into about fifty pieces.It was in a big envelope and all but it broke anyway. I damn near cried, it made me feel so terrible..." (Pg.154)
ReplyDeleteI was struck when the record broke. I think that when the record broke it represented Holden's life sort of falling apart, because holden was kicked out of his school Pency, and got really drunk. His life is falling apart he's running low on money and had to stay in a hotel just to avoid telling the truth the his parents and he could even tell the truth to his sister his sister just found out.
I very strongly agree with this. For Holden the record was definitively a big symbol of something important to him. He also probably feels guilty for breaking the record because he wanted to give the record to Phoebe. Phoebe was one of the few people that Holden likes in the book, and so Holden feeling bad about breaking the record probably had a lot to do with Phoebe.
DeleteI agree with you both, and also for me, it broke my heart a little when I read about the broken record. Adding on your idea Christina, I think that the record breaking was giving Holden a sign, that this can happen to his life if he doesn't take matter into his own hands and figure out a way to get out of this mess. Holden could have prevented the record from falling,and he can also prevent something as delicate as the record (his life) from breaking into fifty pieces, and one of the ways to really get his life back together is stay true and own up to your mistakes you've made and you grow from that rather than feeling depressed and doing stupid things that Holden does.
Delete“I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you’re dead? Nobody,” (p. 155).
ReplyDeleteI think that in this quote, Holden doesn’t mean he would actually rather be dumped in the river when he dies, but that he thinks that funerals are pointless and unnecessary. I wonder why Holden often thinks many things in life are pointless, or phony, in the same way that he seems to think funerals are. I think that Allie’s death shows part of why Holden thinks this way. I think Holden feels that putting flowers on someone’s stomach when they’ve died or having a funeral for them is pointless because it won’t ease the pain of their death and won’t change the fact that they aren’t alive. This is what he means when he writes, “who want flowers when you’re dead? Nobody.” I think it could even be that then Holden feels like there isn’t really any point to anything in life, because nothing can ease the pain of Allie’s death, or his loneliness in general. This may be a part of the reason why he hates movies so much. Holden goes to the movies, I think, as a way of getting away from his depression, but because they can’t make him feel any better, he ends up thinking they are pointless.
I agree that the incident of Allie's death made him think of cemeteries this way. Holden probably sees the tombstone as a constant reminder of the loved one's death. I personally do not think Holden wants his body in a river but just not in a place where it will always be in the same place, that could be a constant taunt, of the actual death, or the fact the person is 6 feet under but still worlds away,or even just bring up regrets with or of the person. I don't think he just likes the idea of a designated location that makes a person sad. also with the part about "who wants flowers when you're dead" he might be trying to logically make his point, to give it some meaning. It might sound snooty but in a way make a logical point.
Delete"It's not too bad when the sun's out, but the sun only comes out when it feels like it." (pp. 156)
ReplyDeleteI'm not entirely sure what to make of this line, but it really stood out to me. I think that Holden may actually hold some resentment for the sun, in that he dislikes that it decides whether everyone's plans can go on, and whether or not it rains on his dead brother's stomach. This is a very thought provoking statement. The fact that Holden personifies the sun, and not in the best light, reminds me of when Frank McCourt had to write a composition about Jesus in Ireland. They remind me of each other because in both, they are doing thinking that goes way beyond what is expected, and they aren't casting these things in the best light even though I doubt Holden has ever heard anyone describe the sun such a critical light, and I doubt Frank had ever heard people describing Ireland and Jesus in a realistic light. Neither of them are corrupted by the stereotypes they are exposed to by the people around them.
"-You didn't get kicked out or anything did you?
ReplyDelete-I told you. They let us out early. They let the whole-
-You did get kicked out! You did!"
I was struck by this dialogue between Phoebe and Holden because for me it represents several different important things. The first is that Holden is definitely ashamed about getting kicked out of Pency. We know this because he lies to Phoebe who is the person that he the closest to in the book. The second is that he has lied to Phoebe about other things before. We know this because Phoebe is able to tell that Holden is lying about Pency. And the third is that Holden lies to those he cares about. In this case, Holden is lying to Phoebe because he doesn't want her to worry about him. He has also lied to other people who he seems to have cared about like the woman on the train to New York, and the waitress at The Wicker Bar. I found all three of these ideas are each reflected in this line very well.
"I felt swell, for a change." (159)
ReplyDeleteI am surprised to see how the affect of being in the room with his sister who is asleep makes him happy and content, I think it goes to show just how much Holden cares about Phoebe and how much she means to him.
"All these handsome guys are the same. When they're done combing their goddam hair, they beat it on you." (p. 153)
ReplyDeleteWhat does Holden mean? Has he met other handsome guys other than the one that played the piano and Stradlater?
I think what Holden is trying to say is that the handsome boys are not who they say they are. They might all be good looking, all of the above, and once you pull at their strings and bother them, they will treat you terribly and look like a total different person inside. They're selfish, Holden is trying to say, speaking of his altercation with Stradlater.
Holden most of the time seems to exaggerate, and lies about something to get your attention. I don't really think he thinks all handsome guys are the same, you've only talked about two of them. Plus, the pianist one was very nice, making sure Holden was alright and it was time for him to go home (looking out for others) and Holden was just speaking out his mind bothering the guy, because he was drunk. I think the guy reminds Holden of Stradlater, and Holden only bothered the guy because he thought of him as a guy like Stradlater, not caring about anyone else.
I agree with you but also I think it is that they are all good looking on the out side but deep down they are not. They might me phones of some one who is scared. But on the outside they will put you down so much and tell you that you are worthless.
Delete"About a gallon of water was dripping down my neck, getting all over my collar and tie and all, but I didn't give a damm."
ReplyDeleteI wonder why he did not just move from the place he was sitting? But I think it is because maybe he was just too lazy. Or maybe it was because he did not give a damm which I think is a lie because he is all ways saying that he does not give a damm but I think in side of him he really does care but he is not showing how he really feels. I think later in this book we will see him kinda explode with anger or sadness. Kinda like what he did in the hotel only on a bigger scale.
I disagree with you on this one Eleanor;) I think that Holden does hold in most of his emotions, but lets them out at his own slow pace. I also think that in a larger sense Holden is a hundred percent lazy. I do not think that he doesn’t give a damn, because if he didn’t give a damn about anything he wouldn’t be so judgmental towards people. Not only that but I don’t think Holden is necessarily going to explode I just think, like it said in the beginning of the book, that everything is all going downhill, until he realizes what his life is truly progressing to, so he turns around and starts climbing back up.
Delete"But when I got into the phone booth, I wasn't much in the mood anymore to give old Jane a buzz. I was too drunk, I guess. So what I did, was I gave old sally Hayes a buzz." (pg.150)
ReplyDeleteWhat I find interesting is that even though he is drunk and is in the mood to talk to a girl, he is smart enough to do it with a girl he doesn't really care about. He could have called Jane, but he knew he would have messed things up with her, by calling at 1 in the morning and being drunk, so he just lets it go with some other girl. He might see this as practice of some type to know how to actually act with a girl but he is very weird about it. He is almost afraid to even really take the first shot, he might always need some type of assurance. Back in the book, when he was gonna lose his virginity to a prostitute, he again was just gonna see it as practice for when he is married to a girl, which I think is a big leap. This in general gets me wondering about his relationship with women, and his process to get more intimate, and necessarily sexually, but more closer with women in general.
“I couldn’t stand it. I know it’s only his body and all that's in the cemetery, and his soul’s in Heaven and all that crap, but I couldn't stand it anyway. I just wish he wasn't there. You didn't know him. If you'd known him, you'd know what I mean. It's not too bad when the sun’s out, but the sun only comes out what it feels like coming out.” (202)
ReplyDeleteWhat I don’t understand is how Holden changes/switches through topics so quickly. He can be talking about one thing and then BOOM you have some sad depressed topic coming out of nowhere. Not only this, but I truthfully don’t understand who he is talking to. I defiantly have ideas of whom they might be, but none of them are solid, and depending on how he talks or behaves toward the reader, my opinion continues to vary. However at the end of the quote I chose, Holden is talking about the sun. I think that the sun is a metaphor for his inner emotions. I believe that Holden is saying that if you put your feelings out in the open it really isn’t all to bad, it just that your afraid, and it doesn’t always come out when you want them too. You could be really sad but automatically a switch goes off in you mind making it seem as though you’re either angry or superficially happy.