Please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the
page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try
to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of
potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual
evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A
CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
Format:
"...." (#).
Question:
Answer:
"...." (#).
Question:
Answer:
"In case you don't live in New York..." (pp141)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Who is he talking to?
Possible Answer: We've discussed in class many times as to Holden is talking to with such familiarity. It's possible he might be writing in a journal. It can't be a letter because you have to mail letters, and why would he say "In case you don't live in New York..." If he's mailing the letter. This could be a journal that he's writing in and some kid found it and is reading it, or he gave it to his kids or something. By the way he writes this it suggest that he does want someone to read because he is addressing the reader directly. Well either that or J.D Salinger likes to talk to reader of the book.
-Alana Martin
I completely agree with those answers and possibilities. On the other hand, Holden may just be speaking to anyone who wants to listen. He might also be talking to teens, since he is going through a rough stage. It is really hard to tell.
DeleteI strongly agree with your ideas. I believe that Holden is writing a letter to Allie. I feel like what he says is said to someone he trusts but since he knows Allie is dead he's not, like you said, addressing the reader directly. My issue with my idea is that he talks about Allie like he's talking to someone else, and he's talking to that person about Allie. If his letter was to Allie I don't think he would have added those parts. I think though, no one else seems as close to him for him to write the letter to them except for maybe Phoebe or Jane.
DeleteMaybe we've all been looking at this directly though. Why would he write in a journal of his own that only he would read? My personal opinion is that he's talking to a psychiatrist/therapist he has
DeleteI agree with your idea very much, I also think that this says a lot about J.D. Salinger too, obviously its just a coincidence that we all live in new york city, and know all of the places that he describes, but millions of people have read this book, and not all of them live in new york city, think about how you would interpret the book and how you picture if you didn't live in new york.
Delete"'Have just one more drink," I told him. "Please. I'm lonesome as hell. No kidding.'" (149)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is Holden being open about his loneliness?
Possible Answer: Earlier in the book, we talked about how Holden loves to lie in order to conceal some personal matters. In the more recent chapters, I have noticed that Holden is opening up more about being depressed and lonely. He even shares this with Luce at the bar. I think he is becoming honest because he wants to have someone around and is truly sick of being all alone. He has opened up about being lonesome because he might actually be in need of a friend...
I strongly agree with you, Abby. Holden is getting lonelier and lonelier everyday and now he's desperate for a friend. He's opening up about his feelings because no one will spend time with him and now he can't handle being alone anymore. In my opinion, this quote shows that Holden is begging for Luce to stay with him and this shows us that Holden is in desperate need for company.
DeleteI also agree with you guys that Holden is getting very lonely. I feel that he needs to just to go home with his family, so he will see Phoebe which will make him happier. I also feel that Holden shows his loneliness by calling up people that he doesn't even talk to on a regular basis, but people from so long ago, like Luce and Sally. I think that Holden just needs to talk to somebody without putting any walls up and just express himself, saying what he really feels, just letting out how Allie's death really affected him.
Delete“Supposing I went to your father and had him psychoanalyze me and all,” I said. “What would he do to me? I mean what would he do to me?” (Pg. 448)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does this scare him?
Possible Answer: We all know Holden sees himself as the “best liar in the world,” so I think that the idea of sitting down and being truthful for once can frighten him. He hates being told what he is, and if he sits down in that chair and lets Luce’s father psychoanalyze him, he’ll know it’s true.
I agree with you as this could be a possible answer. But maybe he's just trying to keep this conversation going. After all, he can tell that Luce won't stay long. He seems to kind of look up to Luce as an "intellectual guy" (147) and he can tell that Luce has better things to do. I think he probably just wanted to ask him as many questions to get his input on it before he left. On page 82, when talking about the fish and the ice, he says "The can't just ignore it." which emphasized Holden's curious side and he probably wants to be prepared for whatever's waiting for him if he does go to the psychoanalyst.
ReplyDeleteIf there's ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell on top of [the atomic bomb]." (141)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does he seem to despise the idea of going to war so much that he'd rather die?
Possible Answer: Now at first, when I thought about this, I guessed he probably was just so depressed he just doesn't have much to live for and would rather die. He did earlier say that he wanted to throw himself out the window. However I also remembered that J. D. Salinger said he could relate to Holden so I looked up what J.D. Salinger was doing during the war. It turns out that not only was he in the war but he was part of some of the worst fighting in the World War. So I think that when earlier in the passage he says "all he did was lie in bed" (140) when speaking about his brother when he came back from war, he was most likely explaining what he did after the war when he (Salinger) was said to have a nervous breakdown.
I get what you are saying and I agree with you, but I was also thinking back to the subject of being a phony. That maybe war would make people act like someone different and that he could not stand that idea of all those people being phony. But thought out this book I have seen that Holden has shown that he does care about some things very much. In the passage where he is at the hotel and said that you should love a girl for her and not like how she looks. Maybe he just feels very strongly about war and that it is wrong and he does not support it at all.
DeleteI agree that he may have been suicidal too. I also agree that this connects to the author as well. I also think that since he went through this tramatizing experience, that he would never want to have another war. I also think that Holden tries to control things, but they never work out for him, and the image of him sitting on a atomic bomb probably makes him feel like he would have an impact on the world, and everyone would finally notice him.
DeleteWhen reading the chapters, I didn't see, this as a suicidal thought from depression. When Holden says he was glad of the invention of the atomic bomb, I see it more as a war weapon, not a suicidal weapon, unlike a gun or knife, or even jumping out the window. When reading I saw this line maybe with some type of suicidal thought but more towards just not wanting to be in the war, and wanting to be the first one out. Although, I do agree that J.D. Salinger is putting some of his perspective in the novel.
Delete"Very funny," he said. "Same Old Caulfield. When are you going to grow up?" (144)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why would Old Luce be open about Holden being immature?
Answer: Old Luce would be open about this because he was annoyed by how Holden kept talking about the past and how Luce used to talk about sex and flits. Holden kept asking about his girlfriends and if Luce was still sleeping with girls and this "bored" him because this happened in the past and he didn't want to talk about it. As we discussed in class today, Holden is still immature and doesn't want to grow up because he might be scared of change. Holden talking about the the past shows us that he wants things to stay the same. He's afraid of becoming an adult because in his mind, adults are "phonies." This shows us that Holden is immature and still needs to grow up.
I agree but I also think Luce is very blunt about it because he's just that type of guy. He talked about his sex life like it was nothing so maybe he has the same mentality here.
DeleteI strongly agree. I think that Luce is very sensitive and "sore" about his past. It seems like Luce moved on from his past and doesn't want to focus on it. This is probably why he gets so annoyed at Holden when he brings it up.
Delete"(Bob Robinson) he really had an inferiority complex.You could tell he was very ashamed of his parents and all, because they said "she don't" and "he don't" and stuff like thst, and they weren't very wealthy. But he wasn't a bastard or anything. He was a very nice guy" pg. 136
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What does Holden think about social status?
I think that Holden is actually very judgemental when it comes to class, i fing it strange how whenever he mentions someone as being poor or not very wealthy its always said in a sort of disapointed way, like its a very bad thing, obvoulsy being poor isnt a good thing, but he says it in a way where he generalises poor people as bad people, for example, when he says "his family wasnt very wealthy" this sounds like they are bad people, but then he says "but he wasn't a bastard or anything" sort of unintentionally making a connection with poor people being bad people. What do you think? Is Holden intentionally association poor people with bad people, or does he not think that they are bad people at all?
I don't think Holden believes that all people not as wealthy as him are bad people. He says that Bob was a "very nice guy", so I think that someone's social status doesn't make Holden think that they are bad or good. But I think it might affect the way Holden treats the person. For instance when Holden was rooming with that boy with the cheap suitcases, he felt sort of bad for him, and tried to hide his own expensive suitcases so the other boy wasn't ashamed. So I don't think that Holden judges people's personality or intelligence by their social status, but he does tend to treat them or look at them a little differently if they are less wealthy.
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DeleteI agree with you. If that doesn't answer your question, then yes, I do think he acts let down when someone is poor, or at least announces it in a sad tone. I don't think he's let down because they're poor though, I think he's let down in a way because he thinks the same things will happen as they did with his old roommate. It's weird to hang out with someone, or be with someone in a much lower social class then you, if you're at the top, and they're much lower. It's the elephant in the room, and it will be. Money really controls everything. It's the way the world works.
Delete"I didn't say anything. I was sort of afraid he'd get up and leave on me if I didn't shut up. So all I did was order another drink. I felt like getting stinking drunk." (145)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: He doesn't seem to be having any fun so why is he trying to get him to stay?
Answer: I think he tries to get him to stay because he's absolutely desperate for company. He's struck out with everyone he's tried to hang out with, Sally Hayes, the cab drivers and the ladies at the lavender room. He wants so badly to be with someone, even if that person isn't someone he really wants to be with. He hoped that Carl Luce would be easier and more fun to talk. But unfortunately for Holden Carl has stopped talking about sex and is now mature.
I agree with you. I think that Holden just continues to try to fill his void of loneliness throughout the whole novel. Whenever he gets the chance of company he tries to get them to stay. This is probably just because he is such a judge mental person that it is also hard to find people to relate too who he actually wants to talk too
Delete"I gave old Carl Luce a buzz. He graduated from Whooton School after I left. He was about three years older than I was, and I didn't like him too much...(pg.136)"
ReplyDeleteHow does Holden connect and differ to Luce?
Luce is seen as this big shot, guy who is pretty smart, and his his ways with the ladies. Holden describes him as a very closed book, but then again he would pry you open about your personal stuff. Holden is similar to Luce for in a way hiding themselves from the world. Luce will never open up about his personal life and be real with anybody. Luce would just show the unimportant parts of himself but keep the deep side closed. Holden would rarely be able to talk to people on a deep level unless he is comfortable with you. The same thing with his sex life. Holden cannot become intimate with a girl unless he really likes her. Holden and Luce are also similar when it comes to judging people, with a few exceptions. Holden jumps to conclusions by how people seem to be due to his past experiences. He thinks ivy leagues are snobs, thinks girls are crazy when they judge boys, etc. On the other hand, there are some exceptions. When Luce is talking about that last girl Holden knew he was with, he calls her a whore,but for a reason I can't explain, Holden defends the girl's honor. I still wonder what are more of Holden's exceptions and why are they exceptions?
I agree with your statement. I also wonder why Holden keeps calling up these people that he doesn't like so much to hang out with them. Carl Luce and Sally are both examples. He called Sally a phony and in your quote it said that he didn't like Luce too much. But I also wonder (along with you) as to what Holden expects in people. In this book, there has not really been anybody he's "accepted" the presence of except for his siblings and random children he sees on the streets. I don't understand.
DeleteI agree with you Uyen. I think that this is another example of how Holden is lonely. He has nobody to call so he resorts to the idea of calling people he doesnt like. I honestly think for him, he does't have any other choice.
Delete"The trouble with girls is, if they like a boy, no matter how big a bastard he is, they'll say he has an inferiority complex, and if they don't like him, no matter how nice a guy he is, or how big an inferiority complex he has, they'll say he's conceited. Even smart girls do it," (136).
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden so judgemental?
In this passage Holden seems to be generalising that all girls judge guys wrongly. But Holden is actually the most judgemental person in the book. Whenever he sees someone or even hears them, he instantly starts to judge them. He calls them "phonies", and when he hears some people laughing in the distance at night, he says their probably stupid and laughing about nonsense. I don't think Holden realises how much he judges people.
I agree that Holden judges others much more than others judge him. I think he does this because he’s afraid of what other people think of him, and so he makes general criticisms about others in order to feel superior. In thinks context, he assumes girls will be the ones to judge, and so he dismisses them so that he feels better about himself. Holden uses judgment as a defense mechanism, in the same way I think many people judge others in order to boost their egos and make them feel more secure.
Delete"It was the only dive he could do, but he thought he was very hot stuff. All muscles and no brains. Anyway, that's who Jane dated that night."
ReplyDeleteIs Holden Jealous of other guys Jane is with?
Is Holden "over" Jane?
I think Holden is jealous of other guys is with and its because he maybe isn't "over" Jane. I feel like the two go hand in hand but its weird because Holden and Jane were never together yet from the way he talks about her you would think they were. I think that Holden was/is in love with Jane which is why he is getting jealous of her going out with another guy and trying to pick out the flaws in him. I fell like also throughout the book he has thought about Jane so much and attempted to call her a few times. I feel like he also couldn't have sex with the prostitute is previous chapters because of Jane and she is just part of the reason he is depressed.
Well i do agree with you beacuse Holden say this thing as if in him and Jane was together . i just think he says this things about that guy Jane dated was beacuse hes no better than him .
DeleteI agree when you say that holden is jealous. I feel that holden feels that he's sort of more smarter then the guy jane was dating and that he sort of saying i'm smarter than him you should be dating a smart guy not just a mussel guy. He was also sort of worried what was happing on Stradlaters date with Jane.
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ReplyDelete"Listen. Lets get one thing straight. I refuse to answer any typical Caulfield questions tonight. When in hell are you ever going to grow up?" (146)
ReplyDeleteWhy does "Luce" keep calling them "Caulfield" questions, even though Holden says that he was the one asking all the questions when they were in school together?
I think that he refers to these questions as "Caulfield" questions because maybe Holden was the one asking these questions all along. I think that we've come to realize that Holden can over exaggerate things, and I think this might be one of the instances that he's done this. I also think that Luce is in collage, and almost too good for Holden anymore. He's now grow up and on this Junior year of collage, and he knows that there is a lot more to life than just sex knowledge or things like that. I think that he's looking down at Holden, thinking that he has so much to learn still. I think that even though Luce probably did have those conversations back in school with Holden, I think he knows how immature he was being, and he can see that in how Holden is acting.
I do have to agree with you in a sense, Celia. Yes, the fact that the story is told in this third person narration (as we know now) kind of gives us a biased view on the story and thus affects our ideas about the events that happen in the book through Holden's eyes, and we kind of see these events as questions as holden wants us to see it as.But, we have to understand the mindset of Holden and his repention from adulthood and maturity. Look at it in this way, Holden is a curious 6 yr old boy, asking questions about the moon and the stars and simple questions that come with not so simple answers. Now imagine a 17 year old boy with all the experiences of a grown teen but the curiosity and mindset of a six year old. Also, add in a dash of no personal experiences whatsoever when it comes to certain topics, and you finally have these questions, "Caulfield questions", being asked to an adult that had already fell way over and down into the cliff that is adulthood, and u can see that something like that would get somebody like Luce very annoyed, and identify these silly, naive questions as "Caulfield questions". But, what do you think?
Delete“ and while i walked i sort of thought about war and all ..” ( 140)
ReplyDeleteWhy does he makes this connection of the movies to his brother D.B?
He know the effect the war has .It had an effect on D.B . And then he says that D. B once told allie and him that if he had to shoot at anybody he wouldn't've known which direction to shoot in . This means to Holden took this as an way of conformity.That was not something that D.B or allie was about . I guess he made this connections about the war to his brother was because he was in the war but not because he wanted to but because he was a writer so it gave him a lot to write about . So he thought Or kill him that if he really didn't like it why would he make him read this book called the “A Farewell to Arms” .
"That stuff's sort of flitty. It really is." (143)
ReplyDeleteDoes he mean homosexual when he uses "flit"? And if so, was homosexuality a very bad/big thing in the 50's?
Although my quote's short, from the whole page of 143, I could tell that flit meant homosexual. He stated things such as, "flits and Lesbians" and "...and whenever he went to the can, he always left the goddamn door open and talked to you while you were brushing your teeth or something." These quotations help support my claim that flit does indeed mean homosexual. But I do think homosexuality was a big thing back in the 50's. In the book, the word "lesbian" is capitalized, compared to now in the present, when it isn't at all capitalized because it's just a word to describe someone's sexuality. And they seem so surprised after realizing who's a flit/lesbian and who's not. But in some ways, the way they are acting can relate to what is going on in the present.
I asked myself the same thing while I was reading this part. I think that a "Flit" is the term for a homosexual person in this time period. I think that flamboyance of being homosexual was frowned upon during this time period, but people usually kept it a secret because they thought that they would be judged, and disgraced by others.
Delete"After the Christmas thing was over, the goddam picture started. It was so putrid I couldn't take my eyes off it." (Page 138)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is Holden in such a bad mood and why can't he enjoy anything?
Possible answer: In this quote you see how Holden describes the movie in a very poor way and he also spends a long time saying how the pre-show was superficial and bad. I think one possible answer for why Holden is in such a bad mood is because of his loneliness. In the previous chapter he proposes a crazy idea to Sally and then calls her a very mean thing. After being let down so harshly, I think Holden is trying to make everything around him seem worse than his situation. I think that it is in a way a coping mechanism to move away from the fact that he is lonely and his life isn't too good. Another thing that shows this is that in almost each chapter, Holden is trying to find someone to have a drink with and in this chapter he meets up with a very old friend who he hasn't spoken to in a while and has insulted in the past. Also I think that Holden judges everything and can't enjoy anything because for some reason he feels like he will be judged. Maybe it's because of his past or something else, I just feel that he is scared to actually show what he likes even if he is alone.
I think that the reason Holden is being so judgmental of the picture is because it encapsulates everything he calls phony. There are the Rockettes, which all look the same and do the same thing, which means they are followers and phonies to Holden. There is then the song about religion and I think it seems to him like an exploitative and nonreligious expression of Christianity. The fact that there are 'thousands' of people marching around with crosses singing the same song is basically the reason that he hates the disciples: they are followers, and therefore phonies.
Delete" I was getting a little personal. I realize that" (147).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden want to know so much about Luce, when he himself is so closed off?
Possible Answers: I think that Holden is so interested in Luce's life because he doesn't want to think about his life and how he is so lost and doesn't know where to go physically and mentally.
A different reason might be because Holden wants to see if Luce has changed at all from the person he used to know in Whooton. Like we talked about in class about the museum Holden seems to not like change and maybe he wanted to see if the image he had about Luce changed or not.
Another reason Holden might be interested in Luce's life is because he wanted to know how it is to grow up and the responsibilities that come with adulthood. We also talked about in class how Holden maybe wants to stay a child because as a child you don't really have any expectations to live up to yet but as an adult you are supposed to know what you want to do and where you want to go and maybe Holden as a bad image in his head about adulthood, so he wants to know if he is ready for that stage mentally even if he looks like he is physically.
I totally agree with what youre saying here!
DeleteI think Holden is also extremely depressed and is so lonely, he doesnt even want to think about his life. He tries to dig deep into someone else's life so he doesnt have to think about his. Hes tried to do that plenty of time already, it just shows how lost he is. I also think Holden was also a little curious about Luces life, since he does show a bit on an interest to him. Especially when they were in camp, since he was his camp counselor, he was always listening to him, he probably caught onto a interest.
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ReplyDelete"He's carrying this copy of Oliver Twist and so's she. I could've puked. Anyway, they fell in love right away,"
ReplyDeleteWhat feelings does Holden feel about this story? Jealousy? Desperation?
I think neither. Although we did see instances where Holden could have been sad and jealous of certain situations before in the book, I think that this time he is "puking" about the surreality of this story. Holden might be disgusted by this scenario because he believes that it is too good to be true. In short, to Holden, this is one big lie. The miracle in this scene makes Holden feel bad about his life and the world in general. This is probably the main reason for his hated of the movies in general.
"I had quite a bit of time to kill before ten o'clock, so what I did, I went to the movies at Radio City. It was probably the worst thing that I could've done, but it was near an I couldn't think of anything else." (Pg.137)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Did Holden really think it was the worst thing he did? Aren't there any other things he could have done?
Answer: I think that it might have been the second to worst thing he did that night because the worst thing that he did was say to sally thats "she give him a royal pain in the ass," I sort of thing he lost a friend after saying that because she got really mad after he said that. I think that going to the radio city movie might have been the second worst event that he dealt with that night be because I know how mush Holden "hates" the movies. Holden probably could have done many other things when he was waiting because he had a lot of time to kill. He could have maybe when skating again or when to a store or maybe even back to the hotel room.
"I gave old Carl Luce a buzz. He graduated from Whooton School after I left. He was about three years older than I was, and I didn't like him too much"
ReplyDelete(pg.136)"
Question: Is Holden becoming a phony?
Answer: I think, Yes, Holden is becoming a phony. He states he "didn't like" Luce that much, but then seems to enjoy his presence in a way.
"Old Luce. What a guy... He was a pretty intelligent guy, though. He really was."
(pg. 143)
In class we talked about Holden looking up to intelligent people. I think as much as Holden "doesn't like" Luce, in a way, he does. I also think Holden is so lonely, and so depressed he doesnt even realize that hes becoming a phony and a hypocrite. Hes hanging out with people he cant "stand" just because no one else wants to hang out with him. Maybe all these people Holden is trying to hang out with or talk to, are a way to express that he needs friends and are looking for people he used to count on in the past.
I agree. Holden is really not realizing that he is becoming a phony. Holden is being caught up by all that's happened to him so far. He just cant see that he has become what he truly despises the most. I also agree that he goes on and off about Luce. one second he says he like him the other he say he doesn't.
Delete"And they were very good, but I didn't like them much.."
ReplyDeleteThis line really stands out to me, and in a way it makes holden sound like an idiot. Holden is always talking about how he hates phonies, and all about real people. He's being phony here! He's trying to act "real", by not liking the good (as stated by the Holden) actors, because only "phonies" would like them. He almost sounds like a really early hipster. Phony people would be mainstream, and real people would be this exclusive group that think they're cool. This quote I think will really help me, but in general could prove a great resource in an essay.
(I know that this isn't in chap. 18 or 19 but since we didn't write last night, I really wanted to post it.)
“She [Jane] was dating this terrible guy, Al Dike, that went to Choate… he thought he was very hot stuff,” (p. 135).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Is Al Dike really a terrible guy, as Holden says? Can we trust Holden’s judgment?
Possible Answer:
I think there is a possibility that Al Dike is truly the terrible guy that Holden describes, but most likely Holden’s feelings about the situation are affecting his views on him. In this case, Holden is jealous of Al Dike’s date with Jane, causing him to view him as a terrible, lousy guy with “all muscle and no brains,” (p. 135). Holden does this multiple times throughout the book. For example, Holden judges the women in the Lavender Room and calls them stupid, only because they laugh at him and don’t pay much attention to him, an understandable thing for them to do when a sixteen-year old boy asks them to dance. The women were probably not nearly as idiotic as Holden describes them as, but he judged them because he felt judged himself. Even at the beginning of the book, when Holden is still at Pencey, I feel that he gives a possibly false description of some people because of the way he feels about the situation as a whole. For example, when Old Spencer expresses his concern for Holden’s future and wishes him good luck, Holden looks at Spencer in a negative way, most likely because he was depressed by being kicked out of Pencey and having his own concern about his future. I think that it can be very hard to trust Holden to accurately describe a person’s personality because his feelings tend to drastically affect his portrayal of them.
I mostly agree with you Clara. Throughout the book, Holden has put people down because he himself has felt judged himself. But I think his way of talking about females is different then guys. The reason he talked so badly about those girls at the Lavender Lounge is cause he wanted to dance with them, and he was rejected by them. I think he feels that he is better then everyone else, and if he gets rejected then the person is a bad person, and deserves to be ridiculed.
Delete- Marek Barnette
"'I refuse to answer any Claufield questions tonight. When in hell are you going to grow up?' I didn't say anything for a while. I just let it drop"
ReplyDeleteQuestion: why does Holden continue to deny the idea of growing up?
I think that Holden continues to deny the fact that he has to grow up because he doesn't want to. Holden doesn't want to grow up because he's probably missed out on so much as a child. He also continuously mentions Allie, I also think that Allie is a reason why Holden doesn't want to grow up. He's probably had some kind of regret of what he had done when Allie was still alive. I also feel like as he gets old he feels like he's going to lose contact with his little sister Phoebe. His fear of losing contact with Phoebe is because without her he has nobody else to really be in touch with since D.B is in California and Allie is dead.
“ Then, when she was all done whispering and being cute as hell she’d sing some dopey song, half in English and half in French, and drive all the phonies in the place mad with joy.”
ReplyDeleteQuestion: I did not really get the quote at all, but the part where it said “ and drive all the phonies in the place mad with joy.” I did not get what he meant by putting in the word Phonies? What was the point of that?
I think he could have meant but using that word would to be call all the people in that bar a Phoney. That they were not real and when she did start to sing you could know who were the phonies and who was not. That when she did sing all the people who went up to hear her sing you knew was a phony. But then I could also mean that every one in that bar was a phoney and that they were there lying to themselves and when she started to sing it brought out the person they were trying to be witch Holded did not like people acting like (a phony).
"All muscles and no brains. Anyways that's who Jane dated that night."
ReplyDeleteQ: Is it true that Holden is jealous that Jane is going out with some one else?
A: I think yes first off just from the attitude he uses in the sentence he is very jealous of Jane. I mean just look at it he's putting this person down Holden does this a lot to other people like when he calls them phonies. These put downs are mainly to make himself feel better especially since he really has no friends or anyone he can go to for help.
-Ethan Richard Burda I
" The trouble was though, my address book only has about three people in it." Page 136
ReplyDeleteHow, and why does Holden remember people's phone numbers, but says that they are phonies, and that he doesn't care about them?
I think that Holden has his foot in his mouth. There has been about three people that he called (that weren't in his address book), and remembered their numbers by heart. If he thinks that most of them are phonies, then why does he remember something as forgetful as phone numbers? I think that he really exaggerates on how much he dislikes and doesn't care about most of those people. Another example, is how he remembered Sally's number, but he says that he hates her when she was with the Ivy League guy. Also, after he says that, he tells her an elaborate plan he has about going up north, and living with her. I just think that Holden constantly changes opinions of people, so he never has a concrete, and stable opinion about a person, place, or thing.
Tomas Benincasa Reade.
DeleteI agree, however, I think that this quote is referring to the fact that he only knows three people well enough to have their numbers. I feel that this quote is a way of him telling us that he is lonely and upset that he is all alone in a city of millions. One example of this is when he heard the man laughing while he was walking back from Ernie's to the hotel. I think that he envies other people because he feels like life is playing him short. I feel that this in one major reason why he always talks bout life to badly and has such a pessimistic point of view. I also think his envy is part of what makes him hate everyone.
I agree with both you and Tomas, but I also think that he doesn't have anyone elses phone number (that he has memorized) in his contacts because he wants to put their name in, but then they do something phony or stupid to make him "hate" them. He doesn't really accept peoples flaws that much, so thats why he has a limited amount of phone numbers. I don't think that his negative opinions towards people are true, but he uses that to push people away from him once he feels that he's developing something in between him and that person.
Delete"It was a terrible place, I'm not kidding. I cut out going there entirely, gradually." (pp. 142)
ReplyDeleteIf Holden really thought the place was terrible, then why would he have to gradually cut it out? For some reason he obviously still likes to go there even though hes saying that it's terrible, or he wouldn't have spent so much time there. Why was he drawn to the place?
Holden said that he used to go to this place a lot, but he also says that it is a terrible place, which gives me the feeling that his gut instinct is to be phony, but he analyzes things, and decides that he can no longer go there, because the place is phony and terrible. Something has made him decide that he must avoid phonies, and he seems to have a superiority complex about phonies- or at least, he is very judgmental and condescending towards them, but he can barely keep himself from being a phony, and deep down, we can see that he is a phony.
Tomas Benincasa Reade
ReplyDelete" 'When in hell are you going to grow up?' I didn't say anything for a while. Let it drop for a while." pp. 146
What element(s) of adulthood is Holden afraid of?
I think that this quote shows that he is afraid of becoming phony, and having expectations that force you to be someone you don't want to be. In the beginning of the year, when we talked about why being a teenager is hard, we mentioned how there are so many expectations, and how those same expectations put us in stressful situations. I feel that Holden is trying to escape these expectations and become someone different than others want him to. I think thats why he flunks his classes even though he is so smart, or says he is illiterate; its because he doesn't want to live down to peoples expectations, and he doesn't want other peoples expectations change who he is.
I agree with you Tomas, I think that Holden is afraid of letting people down and he doesn't want to disappoint people, so he tries to make them have a low expectation of him. This way it will be harder for Holden to ever let them down. I think that this is not necessarily who Holden wants to be though. I think he wants to be a mature and smart adult but he is just afraid of the baggage that comes with it.
Delete“He only gets a chance to bang them a couple of times during a whole piece, but he never looks bored when he isn’t doing it. Then when he does bang them, he does it so nice and sweet, with this nervous expression on his face.”
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden like this drummer so much even if he doesn’t do much?
I think that Holden likes this drummer for the same reasons that he liked the little boy walking in the curb singing while his parents paid no attention to him. The drummer doesn’t care that he only has a small part, he is just doing his own thing and like we said in class he is just getting a kick out of life by himself. No one paid any attention to the drummer but that didn’t make him want to stop doing what he was doing. The drummer stayed drumming because that is what he loves to do no matter how big or small a part he has.
"You know what the trouble with me is?I cn never get really sexy-I mean really sexy- with a girl that i really dont like a lot. I mean like i have to like her a lot.If i don't, i sort of lose my desire for her and all.Boy, it really screws up my sex life to something awful, it really does. My sex life stinks." (pg147-148)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden necessarily need to force the "sexy" out of himself to improve his sex life when encountering intimiate moments with women?
Answer: I feel like in a sense, Holden has no idea what he is talking about, or is just putting up a front when it comes to his sexuality. First, he explains how for him to get sexy with a girl (meaning doing sexual deeds, i assume) he has to REALLY like the girl, when in fact, this contradicts his other ideas in a sense that Holden said he was still a virgin, so how would he know what he had to do in order to become sexy? Furthermore, many may argue that Holden would feel "sexy" around Jane and thus, knows in that sense. But in fact, Holden has never actually done anything close to sex, only simply kissing her face.So, i had just disproved the whole idea of Holden and the way he wants himself to feel about his sex life, when in fact, he knows truly why his sex life sucks. I believe that the reason that Holden has trouble with women in his sex life is because he is trying to force himself to like these girls and furthermore, resents his homosexual tendecies and emotions. This is proved by the peice of text on pg 143 where he states "He used to scare the hell out of us. I kept waiting to turn into a flit or something." meaning that Holden is (along with the rest of the world) scared of being identified or being insecure about their sexuality, so instead he repents his homosexuality. So, instead of him actually coming to terms with his homosexuality, along with all of the ideas that come with coming of age (ex. Religion,Wealth,Sexuality,Education,i.e.) he sets it deeper and deeper so that he will not only be more osstricized than he already is, but being isolated because of the certain circumstances he has had to face. Therefore, i do believe that the reason That holden has had to "force" bringing the sexy out of himself when hes with a girl, and about his sex life in general, is because he is not straight, and is pushing his true sexuality deeper and deeper into his soul, in avoidance of being isolated and ostricizied by the rest of society more than he already is.
"...but I do know I'd drive me crazy if I had to be in the Army and be with a bunch of guys like Ackley and Stradlater and old Maurice all the time, marching with them and all." (p. 140)
ReplyDeleteDid Holden really not like Ackley, Stradlater and Maurice, or the little things they did bothered him?
To be honest, I feel like Holden doesn't like a lot of people, but he's known these few for a while, seeing them personally a lot. I don't believe that Holden really did hate Ackley and Maurice. He had a close connection to Ackley, thinking he was a nice person and that he kind of felt bad for him (when he was at Pencey). With Maurice, I feel that if Holden really didn't like him, then he would have attacked Maurice back, just like he did with Stradlater when his real inner feelings for him were coming out. Maybe Holden did like both Ackley and Maurice, but he was either just scared of the both of them (both bigger than he is with a grumpy negative attitude) or he just wished they would have respected him more as a person more than a little kid. He didn't like the way he was treated by either of them to cause him to have hate towards them and/or if they treated him like nothing, he would do the same (act like he didn't care about them). If he really did hate Ackley, he would have transferred to a different dorm (Stradlater was in the same dorm as them, Holden hated him, but it didn't matter because he was always out) and if he really hated Maurice, he would have left the hotel sooner, just like what he did with Pencey, because of his feelings towards Stradlater.
I totally agree with you Asia. I think that Holden However only finds adults phonies, and everything they do bother him, causing him to have hatred toward them when in truth he has no idea what he is actually talking about. I also think you were right about him leaving places sooner because of his dislike towards others. In total Holden does not know where he is headed in life so he doesn’t judge people correctly because he doesn’t see himself ‘correctly’.
Delete“Anyway, I'm sort of glad they've got the atomic bomb invented. If there's ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell on top of it. I’ll volunteer for it, I swear to God I will.” (Pg. 183)
ReplyDeletePossible question: Why is Holden somewhat suicidal/ bi polar?
Possible answer: Holden is somewhat suicidal due to the impact left on him by his brother Allie’s death. He thinks that because his younger brother didn’t get to live his whole life span that sometimes he himself shouldn’t either. I also have come to terms with Holden being bi polar. The reason I say this is because in the beginning of the book it is perceived as though Holden is in a mental facility of sorts and because of his bi polarism is what you find out as you keep reading the book. Sometimes Holden is so overjoyed and the next thing you know he is all lonely and depressed wondering why he should even be living. I think in total Holden belongs at the facility so he can start with a new slate.
"I thought maybe I would give old Jane another buzz"
ReplyDeleteQuestion: "Why doesn't he ever actually make the call?"
I think that the reason he doesn't ever call anyone goes back to how he hates phonies. I believe that Holden believes he, himself is a phony, and he doesn't want to show the people who matter the most to him what he thinks he has become. I think Holden also believes he is turning into a phony because of what we talked about in class today, how Holden believes turning into an adult makes you a phony. I think that true friends realize people change, and the reason Holden doesn't call anyone is he is worried they won't accept his change.
-Marek Barnette