For
tonight's blog, please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the
page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try
to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of
potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual
evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A
CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
For example:
"Girls. Jesus Christ. They can drive you crazy. They really can" (73).
Question:
What does Holden mean here? Why do girl's drive him crazy? What is his
attitude towards girls/women in the novel so far?
" His name was Horwitz. He was a much better guy than the other driver I'd had. Anyway, I thought that maybe he might know about the ducks." ( page 81)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden keep on bringing up ducks? What importance are the ducks to him? Holden previously brought up ducks in the previous cab that he was in with the driver and the driver told him that he was being rediculous.
I ducks are always on the go. They leave wherever they are during the summer during the fall so when it gets cold outside they we be in a warm place. When it starts getting colder in the warm place they migrate back to the original place that they were. Holden, in a sense is similar to ducks. He is always on the go. Holden has been kicked out of school four times, and he has just left Pencey and has been all over New York City. I think that Holden is wondering where he is going to go next. Holden is asking where the ducks go when it gets cold outside, but I think that Holden is really wondering where he is going to go.
This stood out to me a lot! I think Holden really wants to know where the ducks go, because in a way it represents his fate. What's gonna happen to him next you know? We all know that the ducks migrate south, but they come back when it gets nice again....Maybe it's the same case with Holden. Something to think about.
DeleteThis quote was the first thing that I noticed when reading this chapter. I think Holden is so bewildered if he is making this good decision in leaving or where he is heading in life. I feel like in the back of his mind he wants to know the future ahead of him without thinking about it too much. Just like the ducks they know where they should migrate to and they know when is the right moment and I guess Holden refers to himself as a duck because that's the only thing that he can compare himself to and find an answer.
DeleteThe ducks symbolizes Holden and his future. Since ducks migrate south it is their ultimate destiny to return to their original place and make a family. If the ducks have perfect goal in my mind, Where does Holden go to find his "Search for Self" ? Holden thinks about his future because it will impact his life. He has been kicked for prep schools and he is unmotivated to do anything. Asking these types of questions will make him understand what he wants for his future and figure out exactly who he is.
DeleteI was also going to pick this quote and I strongly agree with everyone because the ducks some how symbolizes who Holden is as a person. Ducks have wings so it is how they escape but for Holden he can't escape that easily. When it gets cold the ducks leave and migrate south but when it gets nicer out they come back. This symbolizes Holden in a way because it explains why he moves from school to schools because he never just stays in one place he is always going to a new school because he either got kicked out or just dropped out. He wants to know that he has a future ahead of him but he doesn't strive for it. Just like how the ducks know where to go when they migrate.
Delete"If you want to know the truth, I'm a vrigin. I really am. I've had a quite few opportunities to lose my virginity and all, but I've never got around it yet" - Pg.92.
ReplyDeleteIs this the reason why Holden gets too perverted? What does this mean to the readers?
As we know already, Holden is a little bit depressed becaused he has no one to be with. No one to have good company with. Latley, when he is talking about being lonely, he talks about women. He starts falling in love with Ernest's Mom, then he starts falling HALF in love with the three "witches" in Lavender room. When he admits this truth, it starts to add up the evidence. All this time he was a virgin. He still falls in love with Jane though, and in Chapter 11, he starts to interact with her. Lately, he still feels alone.
"I thought of her going in a store and buying it, and nobody in the store knowing she was a prostitute and all. The salesman probably just thought she was a regular girl when she bought it. It made me feel sad as hell- I don't know why exactly."
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden care this much about something as peculiar as that? Why does it upset him, and why does he even have thought that correlate to unusual things like that?
Well...I think Holden thinks way too much. He's been saying how lonely he felt, and I think this is the result of his depression. Back in the lavender room, Holden didn't have any thoughts that correlated with Jane when he was with the three woman, until they left. This is when we got a good understanding about who Jane is. It's kind of the same thing with the prostitute. I mean...yea..she was there...but she didn't give him the peace of mind, he was still depressed and alone. His mind drifts off to things that have no meaning.....At least, that's what I think.
(OH! and guys I'm putting this in parenthesis for Mrs. Kaufman, but it has to do with the book!!....theres this song by Green Day it's a band, they wrote a song about Holden Caulfied, it's called "Who Wrote Holden Caulfied." Check it out!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R90ouXVTWHM) Sorry Mrs. K!
Holden cares about something so peculiar is this because he is afraid of judgment and realizing the truth. He is afraid of judgement because if he tells her she is prostitute. She will criticize him harshly. When he realizes the truth that she is prostitute he either wants to get away or most likely judge her before he gets judged himself.
DeleteThat's okay, Hebh. I don't mind. :)
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DeleteHolden cares about the most mysterious things. I think he cares because he is afraid of judgement. Holden feels like he has to throw the first puch and then everything will be okay after that.
ReplyDelete"New York's terrible when somebody laughs on the street very late at night. You can hear it for miles. It makes you feel so lonesome and depressed... I kept wishing I could go home and shoot ball with Phoebe....."
ReplyDeleteDoes Holden ostracize himself from other people? If he wants to go home, why is he always making excuses?
According to this quote, it seems that Holden feels so ostracized from other people because he is recalling to what he is experiencing at this very moment. He sees himself alone and confused in where he is heading or if he should go back to his home. In the contrary I think that Holden is excluding himself from other people who want to help him or even communicate with him because he is afraid of rejection happening again. He knows so many people who he didn't even introduce in this book and he chooses not to be with anyone. for example in the previous chapter( Chapter 10) when he first arrived at the Penn station he went into the phone booth and he started to think about who he should call, it was either his house, Jane his brother D.B, or Sally Hayes. He made excuses about vacation starting/ ending and if it was too late to call? He seeks to have a companion throughout these bewildering moments but he doesn’t want to explain to anybody what he has gone through or his feelings about something. I think that he is putting this wall between him and the world in not full being himself with people but it seems that he has this sort of communication with strangers who he just passes by or randomly sees. One of the reasons can be that these strangers won’t judge him at all because they don’t know he is or what he is known for so he just lies. When he says that when you laugh on the street very late night it makes you feel so lonesome and depressed, I think he is referring to himself and how he feels ostracized from other people because he always being so judgmental toward other people and makes conversations but at the end of the day he is alone nobody is beside him. I have this feeling that he just wants to go home because he doesn’t know where he belongs and his only option out of the 4 schools that he dropped out is his home. However he is going to be judged by his parents and he doesn’t want that moment to come face to face with his mom or dad so he rather just get far away from his home but a piece of himself is pulling towards that direction.
I agree with you completely. Holden is so lonely and he keeps bringing up how much he wants to go home and see Pheobe, or talk to her on the phone. Holden's excuse for not going home is that his parents will know that he got kicked out of school, but they are going to find out anyway! I have a feeling that the last time that Holden got kicked out of a school his parents got very mad at him because he is avoiding his parents at all costs, until vacation starts for Pencey. I am very interested in seeing what happens when he goes home, I would like to see if Pheobe is everything that he says she is!
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ReplyDelete"I don't know. Writing," I said. I didn't feel like discussing it.(pg.86)
ReplyDeleteQuestions: How come Holden doesn't want to talk about his past? What will his past to tell us about Holden?
Possible Answers: Holden doesn't want to talk about his past because since we know about Holden's personalty that he is so introverted and he doesn't want to show emotions towards anything, yet when we ask him questions he makes himself more isolated from everyone not even say it. Another reason why Holden doesn't want to talk about his past is because it is going to make him feel more depressed and have low self esteem. D.B's is a successful screenplay writer, Allie died because of Leukemia and smart. Phoebe is smart and pretty. Holden says he is dumb. Those are two reasons why he doesn't want to talk about his past. What his past tell us about Holden is that he is considered dumb because members of his family is smart and his past can probably help him figure out his future.
I think he might be a little insecure about his past. Like I said in my entry, he never really had the support of his parents like most kids do, they're parents are always around to help them out with homework, school, drama, etc. Holden grew up without any of that, he was sent to a boarder school instead of coming home every night to his parents. If holden were to tell us more about his past, (which I think he will throughout the book without us even knowing) he will think we're judging him. All of his lashing out is to protect his own insecure feelings about his past.
Delete"My father wants me to go to Yale or maybe Princeton, but I swear, I wouldn't go to one of those ivy league colleges if I was dying, for God's sake."
ReplyDeleteDoes Holden really not want to go to an ivy league college, or is he just setting his standards low because he doesn't have confidence in himself?
I think that Holden is just setting his standards low because he doesn't want to face failure. This is similar to the situation in the last chapter where Holden is very judgmental and mean to the girls in the lavender room, just because he was afraid of rejection, he talked them down in his head by telling us that they were ugly and "whorey-looking". I think that if Holden were to set a goal for himself, he would be too scared that he wouldn't be able to reach it, so to insure that he is never disappointed, he just avoids challenging himself altogether. I think that his lack of self confidence is part of the reason why he has been kicked out of so many schools, he doesn't have enough motivation to work hard and pass his classes.
I think that Holden has only decided to not go to an Ivy League college not because he simply does not want to go, but because he is afraid of rejection from those schools and has therefore set his academic standards very low. “I’m the only really dumb one.” (pg.67), he states after reflecting on his family’s studious achievements, of which Holden has none. By saying and believing this, Holden has the excuse to flunk out of boarding schools and consistently get bad grades whilst never trying. Moreover, if you say that you can't do something, and therefore never try, then Holden would never have to face what he might see as failure in the future.
DeleteI agree with both Marion and Beatrice. Holden doesn't want to go to any Ivy League schools because he has always been afraid of rejection. Since he thinks this way about himself he thinks that he doesn't even try to do good because before even knowing if he can do it or not he already says that it's no use. This is why he keeps getting kicked out of schools.
Delete“ In a funny way, though, I felt sort of sorry for him..... I feel so sorry for them sometimes..... You had to feel sort of sorry for her in a way...... I get to feeling sorry for them.” (pg. 84-92)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden always feel so sorry for people?
I think their are so many reasons that lead to Holden often feeling so sorry for other people, one of these being that he can often empathize with their sorrow. After having lived through so many miserable moments, flunking out of boarding schools, and having his little brother Allie die, he has the ability to perceive and understand pain in many different ways, even though many of the people that Holden “feels sorry for” might not even be in misery. When judging someone, something Holden often does because of his insecureness of his own self, he is always able to find the negative and often sad parts to a persons life, whether it’s an amazing and renowned piano player who yet doesn’t “know anymore when he is playing right”, or a “ Real ugly girl” who “has it tough” because she has to sit around listening to dopes half the time. These people though, don’t see the burdens in their life, but Holden does and is compassionate towards their problems, because he knows no one else will. Moreover, when Holden judges others, and finds them to be phony or stupid, he doesn't hold them accountable for their defects and instead ends up feeling sorry for the person because they are that way.
I definitely agree with your statement, how Holden probably empathizes with other peoples sorrows. It's as though he believes that everyone should be felt sorry for or considered, even though the negative part isn't a big deal. Adding on, I also think Holden feels sorry for people because he doesn't have anyone to feel sorry for him. Therefore Holden treats people the way he wants to be treated, when it comes to people's simple burdens.
Delete"I don't feel very much like myself tonight. I've had a rough night. Honest to God. I'll pay you and all, but do you mind very much if we don't do it?" (p96)
ReplyDeleteHolden says that he has had many chances to have sex, but there has always been some kind of intrusion. Whether it be because the girl didn't want to or because her parents came home at the wrong time. However, tonight was the night that he could have finally gotten his chance and yet he told the prostitute that he would pay her but he just wasn't in the mood. Why would he do that when he always complains about not being able to have sex, yet when he gets his chance he denies?
In the book, Holden says that he was depressed at the moment. However, I feel that he told us that so we would believe him. I think that Holden was not only overwhelmed at the moment and the fast pace of everything happening so quickly, but also because he didn't even know who this girl was. When the girl, Sunny first came into Holden's room, Holden tried to get a conversation going between the two of them, but she was more concerned about getting her 10 bucks and leaving. I feel that maybe this is what caused Holden to change his mind. Yeah he wanted sex but he wanted to do it with a girl he knew and with someone that he actually thought was worth the time, not someone who was getting paid and who he didn't even know.
i thought the same thing but i think it was about how he always has an attachment over women and when this girl didn't care about him he was overwhelmed. i also think it was because he usually comes on to the girl and he starts the whole thing but it was different with the prostitute because she came to him. also the mysteriousness of not seeing her was weird and i don't think he liked that very much.
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ReplyDelete"Would you care to stop off and have a drink with me somewhere?" I said." pg.83
ReplyDeleteWhy does he keep asking strangers, or to be more specific, cab drivers to have a drink with him?
Holden hates a lot of things, especially phonies. With his carefree attitude and him saying he doesn't care what people think of him, when he actually does, doesn't that make him a phony too? He's afraid to open up to people who actually know him, or I guess care about him. Because if Holden tries to talk to them they're going to ask how things are going, and once he tells them they'll be disappointed. He needs someone who doesn't know him at all or someone who won't judge, and to just sit down and talk. Maybe it doesn't have to be about his problems or theirs. Maybe he just wants a friend because in the last few chapters you can tell that Holden is a loner and he just wants to be heard or for someone to care, or to listen. Someone who doesn't know his past won't judge him and will actually be willing to sit down with him. Yet not even they have the time for him. I feel like what caused Holden to be the way he is, is neglect in general. It started from his parents to his older brother to now even strangers? All in all, I do believe that Holden asks strangers to sit down with him not only for new friends, but because sometimes its better to tell your problems to a stranger rather than a friend.
Holden is lonely and depressed. He even says, "Depressed and all. I almost wished I was dead." (90) I think that he asks the taxi drivers to get a drink with him because he is lonely and has nothing to do. Holden is lost. He is so interested in the ducks moving because he is always moving. Like the ducks migrate, Holden moves from school to school and from town to town. Holden needs somewhere that no one with judge him and that he feels he will belong (with no phonies and morons).
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ReplyDelete“One of my troubles is, I never care to much when I lose something...I never seem to have anything that if I lost, I would care too much about.” (89)
ReplyDeleteWhat does this say about Holden as a character? What does this say about his personality? Could this somehow connect to Allie?
This line means that Holden does not “care” or is attached to things. From his school work to building relationships, Holden never cares, except for when he is not in denial of his true feelings. When Holden takes the time to look at himself he realizes he does care. Examples of this are when he talks passionately about Jane, Phoebe and Allie. The problem with Holden is that he is afraid of caring. When he becomes close with someone, he might back away. Holden is fearful of rejection and loss. He does not want to lose someone that he is close to. I think that this was different before Allie died. Now, he is afraid to take risks and put himself on “the line.” Holden puts himself in a position in which he has no close friends or family members (with the exception of Phoebe). Holden talks about how lonely he is, “you feel lonesome and depressed.” (81). While I still feel sorry for him, Holden put himself in this position. I predict that Holden will soon meet someone he becomes close with.
I think Holden stays away from caring relationships because he's lost a lot in his life. He lost Allie, and is no longer in close contact with Phoebe or Jane, and I think that sort of rejection makes me feel alone and scared to try again. He's a very enpathetic person, and does still care for the things he's lost, but he still is afraid of losing more people. Maybe he's convinced himself that caring relationships don't end well, and he doesn't want to build himself back up only to be hurt again.
DeleteHolden doesn't care much about things probably because he knows that life can end so soon for people, like it did for his brother, Allie. I think Holden cares for things, even if he doesn't admit it himself, like his sister Phoebe or the ducks. He actually cares so much for those things it seems like an obsession. Holden is just lost in the world, his age and Allies death have a lot to do with it. So, I believe Holden lies to himself because he likes to be down on himself since he has a very pessimistic view on life.
DeleteHolden is the kind of person that will trying things once or twice and then just give up cause it requires too much for him emotionally and he doesn't like that feeling . The people in his life that he really cares about , he doesn't, wont , cant talk to them or re-establish the relationship or deal with the feelings of a loss relationship (Allie) and Holden isn't willing to go that extra step and do it ,so he has forced him self to not be to attached to people at all cause he feels he will get hurt from trying to do so.
Delete"I was surrounded by jerks. I'm not kidding." (pg 111 in my book)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden keep surrounding himself with people he doesn't like?
I think Holden continuously spends time with people he refers to as "jerks" because he doesn't know who to go to. He's a very lonely person, and it leads him to want to be around anyone he can, no matter whether or not he takes a liking to them. In a way it's also entertaining to him. In the Lavender Room Holden always says that the way the girls were acting always "killed him," or in other words, made him laugh. At Ernie's, however, he finds himself to be lonely when he's sitting between people that he doesn't like and aren't associating with him. I think Holden feels like he needs to just always be around someone and it might take away the pain in his mind. It'll stop him thinking about his failing grades, and, most of all, Jane. Her and Phoebe are the only two people he want to be around, but he's scared to call either of them all up, and doesn't want to face rejection from two people he deeply cares about. Maybe he thinks that worst comes to worst, and he's rejected by someone he meets at a club, it won't hurt to be turned away from by a complete stranger who he has no feelings for, rather than run the risk of not being wanted by Jane or Phoebe.
I think Holden keeps surrounding himself with people he doesn’t like for many reasons. One, he’s so lonely he has no one else to really be with. It’s either he’s all alone or with people he dislikes. One other reason is that Holden feels safer with people whose opinions of him don’t matter. It is easier for him to be with them instead of being with someone that really matters and someone whose thoughts about him would affect him more. He doesn’t need to feel so protected when he’s with people he dislikes because they won’t ever be able to hurt him like, for instance, Jane would be able to. I also think it’s easier for him to judge them. Holden would never be able to say something bad about Jan or Phoebe because he cares about them too much. But since he doesn’t even like the people he’s with, he can easily judge them. This in return will make any judgment they make less harsh because he has already judged them. I think Holden is with people he doesn’t like because he feels safer with them and because he has no one better to be with.
Delete"I'm one of these very yellow guys. I try not to show it, but I am...If I'd found out at Pencey who'd stolen my gloves...I might say something very cutting ad snotty, to rile him up -instead of socking him in the jaw...I think maybe I'm just partly yellow and partly the type that doesn't give much a damn if they lose their gloves..." pg.88-89
ReplyDeleteWhat does it mean to be "yellow"?
In this passage Holden's hands are cold and he thinks a guy at Pencey stole his gloves. He describes exactly what he would do to confront the guy; Holden would look in the guy's closet and pull out the gloves and say "Nobody's calling anybody a thief. All I know is my gloves were in your goddamn galoshes."(pg.89) This shows he would simply use his words to handle this situation instead of using his fists. However, Holden implicates yellow means being a coward, he also explains he doesn't like to show it. Holden and many other guys in general, don't want to come across as someone who won't defend themselves. So he metaphorically used the word "yellow" to describe not getting into a fight because knows he's better than the other person.
I was gonna use this quote! I believe yellow mean his cowardness. You often hear people say I feel blue meaning they feel down. Well Holden feels yellow meaning cowardly. He said he doesent care but everybody and anybody with sense knows he really does. If that was the case he wouldn't confront the person. I believe feelibg yellow is a Holden thing. Hes too coward to confront somebody about his gloves, to coward to tell his mom, he is afraid to call Jane. His afraid and feels "yellow" toward the unknown. Anything that he can't predict or doesent know wgat the outcone might be he avoids the situation as a whole just to avoid confrontation. I think his yellowness iswwhy he still hasn't called Jane. Holden is just so . . . Yellow !
Delete-Nyla Mckenzie - Isaac
I was also going to use this quote! I agree to your answer. Holden uses the word yellow to show that he is a coward. I think he uses the word yellow instead of a word like blue like Nyla said because he feels this need to always put up a "front". By also using the word yellow I feel that he is trying to place himself in his own box so that he isn't considered a phony or any of the words he uses to judge people.
Delete"They can't ignore the ice, they just can't ignore it." (p 82)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: How does this quote symbolize Holden?
Answer: Holden was concern about where the fishes go when the lake is filled with ice. The cab driver tells him no where they just stay there because it is in their nature. This quote symbolizes Holden because he is saying that the little fishes can't ignore the ice because it is natural to have the lake frozen with ice during the winter because that is just what the climate is like. There is nothing the fishes can do about it but just be frozen in the ice. This represents Holden in a way because he is trying so hard to not think abut Jane but he can't he is just like how the fishes can ignore the ice he can't ignore his feelings for Jane. He tries so hard to not think about her but she is always on his mind he is trying to fight the urge to talk to her because he is scare that she might reject him. Or the fact that he misses Jane a lot he is just lying to himself because he said that they are just really good friends but deep down inside he LOVES Jane and he just wants a companion. He knows he wants more than just a friendship with Jane but he doesn't want to risk their friendship and his feelings of being hurt because what if she doesn't feel the same way and he will end up heart-broken again.
I agree. This quote does symbolize Holden. As we were discussing in class a few days ago about how the ducks resemble hime and he keeps bringing back the ducks. I also noticed he only asks the cab driver where the ducks go. He judges the cab driver by the way he responds. For example, he says,"He was about the touchiest guy I ever met. Everything you said made him sore." He judged him for the answer he gave about the ducks.He also is like the ducks where he is just trying to ignore the"ice" but the ice is where he's gonna go if he cant go back home.
Delete"I was surrounded by jerks. I'm not kidding." (page: 85)
ReplyDeleteWhy does he always think so negative about people? Without even getting to know them first.
i think the reason holden thinks so negative about people is because he's never really had someone around for him, he's sort of had to grow up on his own. his parents never really cared that much, his sister was too young, one of his older brothers was in hollywood and his other brother allie had died. Holden he just takes the first situation he's in with a person and builds off the negative, without even trying to understand the positive.
Anita I agree with you, I also think that Holden always judges people too fast without knowing their reasons for their actions. But after analyzing some texts, I’ve concluded that the reason why Holden is always judging people to hastily is due to the reason that he is cocky and conceded and also he doesn’t reflect on his own actions and sees that he isn’t that good of person either. For example, he says he surrounded by jerks but he doesn’t realize that he is also one of those jerks since he also acts like one of the too. For instance, on the first chapter after he forget the foils in the train and everyone in the team ostracizes him he just acts as if what he did was funny, which in my perspective is something that most jerks do. In addition, I think Holden judges people too quickly since like I said before he doesn’t want to create links with anyone because eventually he ends up losing his friends like he did with Jane and he doesn’t want to go through that again since at the end he always ends up losing friends since he moves from school to school. Furthermore, not only does he fear losing close people to him but he also fears that if he doesn’t judge the people they will most likely become friends with him and then they will judge him and reject him once they find out the type of person he is. So in my view, Holden judges people as a way to create a protection wall around him that keeps him from supposedly “getting hurt”. Those are some reasons why I believe that Holden judges people too fast.
Deletei think the reason is because he feels that like he always says the people around him are morons and phony's also he hates judgement but yet he does it to others which quite confuses me because he doesn't even know them and is judging a book by it's cover. for example he judges Ernie playing the piano by saying it was horrible and when he noticed that people had went crazy over Ernie it angered him which he called them morron because they cheer for the wrong things and feels that if it was him he wouldn't want people to clap for him. consequently, i think he really does this mainly because he feels that the judgement he gives them really reflects to his life in a way where as he's a very negative person.
DeleteHolden (I think) thinks negatively about other people around him to reject them before he rejects himself. I know this is a weird comparison, but in one George Lopez episode, Ernie gains weight to reject women before they reject him. Holden could possibly feel insecure about himself and “knows” he’s going to be rejected. We’re all afraid of rejection and I think Holden’s way of dodging that is to reject them before they reject him.
Delete“I swear to God, if I were a piano player or an actor or something an all those dopes thought I was terrific, I’d hate it. I wouldn’t even want them to clap for me… If I were a piano player, I’d play it in the goddamn closet.”(84)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What does Holden mean by this? What larger ideas could this tie into?
Possible Answers: I think Holden means a lot of things when he says this. Holden is saying that he hates when people judge him, whether it’s a good judgment or bad. That’s why he doesn’t want anyone to clap for him because then they would be judging him by clapping, because he’s good enough to clap for. I think Holden hates attention and wouldn’t want a person to watch him while he does something that is special to him. He is so closed up and letting people in by letting them hear his music would be too much for Holden to handle. It’s almost like Allies baseball glove. He only really opened up to Jane about it because it is so personal. I think one larger idea this ties into is that Holden is afraid of rejection. He doesn’t want to put himself out there and have people not clap for him. This is also the reason why he keeps on avoiding calling anybody because he’s afraid they are going to reject him. One other example of his fear of rejection is when he knows Jane is outside but he doesn’t go say hello. He says “’I oughta go down and say hello to her or something… ‘Listen. Give her my regards, willya?” (31-33). He’s so paralyzed with fear that she might not remember him or in some other way reject him that he doesn’t want to go down in the same way if he ever played piano he wouldn’t play it in front of everyone else. One other idea this ties into is Holden’s constant fight to not be a phony or a dope or a moron. I think he thinks if he plays for “dopes” then he will automatically become a dope because he played for people he had classified as “dopes”. I think he judges people by his own rules, so that he can protect himself in case he is judged so he can already have that person downgraded in his mind. I also think maybe he means that the craft should be what it appreciated. That is why he gets so upset that the mirror in front of Ernie shows only his face and not his hands. It is only showing the “phony” part of Ernie, the part that likes being famous and knows it, not the part that has ended up doing all of the work and is the real reason why Ernie is famous. I think Holden identifies more with the hands and not the face, as he is always in the background, never in the spotlight from what we have seen of him.
"What's your name?" I asked her. All she had on was this pink slip. It was really quite embarrassing. It really was.
ReplyDelete"Sunny," she said. "Let's go, hey."
"Don't you feel like talking for a while?" I asked her. It was a childish thing to say, but I was feeling so damn peculiar...I couldn't think of anything to talk about, though. I thought of asking her how she got to be a prostitute and all, but I was scared to ask her. She probably wouldn't've told me anyway."
Holden can talk to Jane, he can talk to his mother, he can even talk to Ackley if he wanted. However, he decides to talk to the prostitute. Why?
Holden is a person who wants friendship, companionship, a kind of relationship where he can talk and let out all his frustration out at somebody but he doesn't strive for it. The whole entire night he's thinking about Jane and Phoebe. However, not once he's decided to go out and talk to them. I feel that he needs someone to let it out at that doesn't know him completely. As shown in previous chapters, he has shown a great deal in both Jane and Phoebe but doesn't but want to. He loves both of them. Anybody can see that. However, he doesn't want to talk to the people that he hold high. Instead, of these phenomenal girls in his life, he chooses a prostitute that doesn't have any direction in the world. That sells her body night after night to God knows who. A person who doesn't know left from right or right from wrong. He's looking for answers but he doesn't know the question and he is looking for them in a person who wants neither the question nor answer. He feels that if talks to these strangers, that are the most judgmental, he can wake up the next day and brush it off because he'll probably never see him again in his life.
-Nyla Mckenzie Isaac
Quote:
ReplyDelete“Hey, Horwitz, I said. You ever pass by the lagoon in Central Park? Down by Central Park South? The what? The lagoon. That little lake, like, there. Where the ducks are. You know. Yeah, what about it? Well, you know the ducks that swim around in it? In the springtime and all? Do you happen to know where they go in the wintertime, by any chance? Where who goes? The ducks. Do you know, by any chance? I mean does somebody come around in a truck or something and take them away, or do they fly away by themselves- go south or something?
Question: Why is Holden, still wondering where the ducks go during the wintertime?
According to this quote, Holden still seems to be looking for the answer for where the ducks from Central Park go to during the wintertime. To me this quote, stood out to since it has been mentioned in previous chapters in the book. For instance, in chapter 9 Holden asked the same question to the first cab driver he met on the way to his hotel. Anyhow, after analyzing some data I started to fathom why Holden is so intrigued on finding the answer behind the ducks from the lagoon. I concluded that, the reason for this is that he feels ostracized by everyone around him. For example, he said that he feels that he that he is the dumbest one in his whole family since he sees how all his family members are always succeeding and he knows he is just a disgrace to his family. As you can see this might lead him to think where ducks go since he wants to take that and find where he also belongs in this world since he knows that he has been a failure. Furthermore, he might wonder ducks go off to in the wintertime since he in a way is just like the ducks since, he is constantly moving around from place to place. For instance, Holden is constantly getting expelled from every school he attends and that causes him to always be on the move from one place to another. Those are some of many reasons why I wondered why Holden is constantly trying to find where the ducks go to during the wintertime.
1. “‘If you was a fish, Mother Nature’d take care of you, wouldn't she? Right? You don't think them fish just die when it gets to be winter, do ya?’’’ (page 83)
ReplyDeleteDoes Holden feel that Horwitz's answer to where the ducks go in winter, is helpful or accurate?
Holden constantly uses ducks to represent him personally. Due to this, he uses that to make conversation when he is in a cab ride by asking the driver where the ducks go when its cold. Holden wants to go home but can't because he knows his parents won't be happy and would judge him about him getting kick out of school again so he wants to find a second home.
The quote above is Horwitz’s, the cab drivers, answer to Holden’s question. Horwitz uses fish because he doesn't really know about ducks and feels that duck and fish are the same. Holden doesn't feel the same way but I think he takes something away from Horwitz's answer. I believe that Holden took something away from his answer because he still calls him a good guy at the end of their conversation instead of a moron or phony. I also believe that Holden felt that Horwitz's answer was helpful in helping him find his way because it seemed as if Horwitz understood Holden and that he seemed interested because he doesn't just drop the topic. I also feel that Holden could have taken Horwitz’s idea of not being alone no matter where you go because he seemed to take it seriously like he could connect.
2.( Yes, I did a second quote because I really like these chapters!)
“‘They just can't ignore the ice. They can't just ignore it.”’ (page 82)
‘“Who’s ignoring it? Nobody is ignoring it!’ Horwitz said.” (page 82)
Does the “ice” symbolize society?
Holden and Horwitz both seem to get touchy with where the fish (Horwitz) and the ducks (Holden) go when it gets cold. By symbolize themselves with these animals it shows that they understand each other though they see it differently.
I believe that the ice represents society to both characters. Holden feels that society judges you no matter where you go while Horowitz believes that everyone in society is is worried about being judge themselves. I say this because Holden sees the ice as a reason to leave, to find a second home while Horwitz sees the ice as something that cannot be ignored because everyone thinks about it.
i've had quite a lot of opportunities to lose my virginity and all... something always happens(92)
ReplyDeleteis he lying like he always does? why didn't he just go to a hotel or something?
i don't really know the answer because to my first question because he could be lying to make him self look better or maybe just because its habit like his age or his name. or he could be telling the truth and actually have gotten opportunities but i don't know seeing that he seems to have this attachment to some girls and other girls could never compete. i think the reason holden doesn't go to a hotel or something is because he wants his first time to be like special in a way, other wise he kinda feels like it doesn't matter and not that big of a deal but it is a pretty big deal. i think he also doesn't want it to be like the girl is prostitute and thats why i think he doesn't have sex with her.
I was thinking the exact same thing after he turned down the prostitute! Although he tries to seem pretty tough, hes a bit of a sensitive guy and i also think that he wants his first time to be meaningful with someone that is important to him and not just a simple one night stand with a prostitute.
DeleteI also agree with what Noah said and to the reply that he gave me at my comment. Holden is always so used to making the first move, so when the prostitute does, I think he feels like he's not in control. So he starts to come up with a conversation to try to catch her attention. I also agree with how he wants his first time to be special. He wants to have sex with a girl who means something to him, not someone he payed to do this with him. I also thought it was pretty funny on page 96-97 when Holden made up that little surgery he had on his thing. I'm not sure what word I should use to replace that but I felt at that moment he would come up with any lie to get out of the situation he was stuck in. I also felt that at that moment he wasn't a very good liar, but that's just what I thought. We know Holden as someone who lies very easily but for some reason in my mind it all played out with Holden being very hesitant. Anyway, before I ramble on and on this is why I think he doesn't have sex with the prostitute and why he thinks through his decision, which by the way is another quality of Holden that we don't see very often. He doesn't seem like a person who thinks things through before he does something, but that's just based on what we know about him so far. Ok. I'm done.
DeleteQuote: "would you care to stop off and have a drink we me somewhere"? i said.pg.83
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden keep asking cab drivers and strangers to have a drink with him somewhere?
I think that Holden keeps asking cab drivers and strangers to have a drink with him because he's so lonesome and depressed, also feels that he doesn't know what to do with his life in terms of his future in which he's at the highest point of depression that he sometimes feels he would die in that moment in my perspective. in pg. 90 he states "i wasn't sleepy or anything, but i was feeling sort of lousy. depressed and all. i almost wished i was dead". this texual evidence backs up what i see as a reader in Holden's emotions and thoughts despite that he's not so open with other's so it may be hard to figure out what he thinks, he tries to hide his emotions of depression and thinks he can clear it away with some company even if it's from a stranger. but yet it just gets worse, so i feel that Holden is not trying to escape but yet trying to have people around him to influence him and maybe help him out on his thoughts of his future which may be the reason why he asks about the ducks and where do they go in the winter to both cab drivers.
"It made me feel sort of sad when i hung it up. I thought of her going in a store and buying it, and nobody in the store knowing she was a prostitute and all." Pg96
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden feel this sort of emotion for the prostitute?
I think Holden may feel this sort of emotion for the prositute because although he does not like bringing up the concept of age, she is pretty young! In A way when i read this I actually thought that maybe in his head he was connecting this to Jane or Phoebe because there is also a part that he says, "she was pretty skinny" and that made me think of Phoebe. The reason why i bring Jane and Phoebe up is because Holden has said a few times before that Jane was pretty young and he also said how his sister was 10 years old. Also, i rememeber how he talked about how skinny phoebe was. I think that this is why he felt some emotion towards the prostitute because he probably felt bad because he knows that he wouldn't like it if it was skmeone he cared about. And, it may have also been because he feels bad that she is pretty much also hiding whonshe really is and he could see that she is very reserved, a bit like himself...
"In a funny way, though, I felt sort of sorry for him when he was finished."(page 84)
ReplyDeleteQuestion:Why did he feet sorry for him, when he should feel sorry for himself ?
Answer: This line confused me because he should be feeling sorry for himself but instead he's feeling sorry for someone else. I think he see's Ernie in himself because he said "It isn't all his fault". So I wonder if he feels sorry for himself as much as he feels sorry for Ernie? He also said " Anyway, it made me feel depressed and lousy again..." So it did make him feel some type of way because he was feeling depressed and lousy after he said he felt sorry for Ernie. This was very clear that what he see's in Ernie he see's in himself.
"The salesmen probably just thought she was a regular girl when she bought it. It made me feel sad as hell-I don't know why exactly." (pg.96)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden question himself, when the answer is obvious? Why does Holden always look at the glass half empty with everything he sees? Is he lying to himself and just pretending he doesn't know the answer to hide the fact that he actually does?
While Holden is lonely, trying to talk to a prostitute, he find a small idem and it makes him even sadder. He knows why he's sad, because he is thinking of this young girl who seems so regular (maybe like his sister) , but who actually lives such a sad life according to him. But the he asks himself why he is sad when he makes up a scenario to make him sad. Holden likes to avoid and drop topics when he starts to open up. It seems that the question at the end is used to hide his emotions making them seem fake. He knows he feels sad, but then asks himself why he is sad, to kind of say that he isn't deep enough to know when he actually does. Holden has a very strong opinion about himself and life which is very pessimistic! Also the way he questions himself shows his confusion with life and how he is trying to figure himself out and see what the world is to him. Holden has suffered which probably gives him his negative view on the world. He keeps on changing schools, messing up, treated badly, his brother died, his other brother "sold out" to movies, rejected by strangers, and he isn't close to his family, so he probably doesn't see the light anywhere, just never ending darkness.
I agree, I feel as if Jane will be the light at the end of his tunnel. I also really agree with you when you say that he always questions himself. I feel like that's something we all do a lot, at least i know i do that a lot. Through out this chapter I feel like Holden is becoming more and more like a teenager. Before Holden seemed a bit like a child and no-it-all but now that we know a bit of background information hes starting to make more sense. I also really do hope that the readers, us, have as good of a relationship with Holden as Jane does.
Deletequote: "i ought to sock the guy in the jaw or something-break his goddam jaw. only, i wouldn't have the guts to do it. i'd just stand there, trying to look tough." pg.89
ReplyDeletequestion: is holden admitting to not being real? why isn't he being real?
i think that holden is admitting things without realizing it. he said he's "yellow" which basically means you're a coward. in this quote he said that instead of socking the guy, he'd just stand there looking tough. i get why he wouldn't sock the guy, because he's a pacifist, but he should pretend to be tough if he isn't. he's admitting to acting in a fake way which is telling us that he's sort of worried how people judge him. this shows how much he's worried about his appearance not just physically but mentally. if he admits to acting tough when he's really a coward then this raises questions like what else is he pretending to be like. he told us before that he was a lier so this makes it hard to believe what he does. i have a feeling that he doesn't show us his real side because he's worried how others will see him. people already see him as a student who isn't smart and the way stradlater told him if he could do his homework a few chapters ago makes it seem like he sees Holden as a non social person.
I agree with you. I think as Holden writes (I think it's a journal) he realizes things he never did. I do not necessarily thing he is admitting to not being real but not feeling real. Holden like you says doesn't seem like a social person and he sometimes feels invisible. This causes his severe loneliness and depression.
Delete“I’d just stand there trying to look tough” pg 89
ReplyDeleteWhy is he talking about the reaction he would have to the person who stole his gloves? Why is it important?
This quote really makes me think about Holden and how he protects himself. This also reminds me of the discussion we had in class about how he’s afraid of rejection. This quote also makes me believe that he’s scared of not only rejection but confrontation. Since he’s afraid of rejection he often says rude things to people and because he’s afraid of confrontation he will act tough or lie, shown in previous chapters, to get away from confrontation. I really believe this quote shows that Holden isn’t all that tough when he is making fun of people or lying which is what he does all the time. This quote also makes it possible to conclude that Holden is very insecure. The quote also seems to have double meaning because he is talking about what he would have done if he found out who stole his gloves but in reality I think it’s trying to say he is afraid of meeting new people and talking to people who aren’t like him. I also noticed that the word stand is in italics. This shows that he’s not literally just talking about this one situation.
"'Listen,'" he said. "'If you was a fish, Mother Nature'd take care of you, wouldn't she? Right? You don't think them fish just die when it gets to be winter, do ya?"'
ReplyDeleteWhat does this quote really mean besides what's on the surface?
This quote has a lot more meaning then what it says. There is something under the surface, It has to do with this theme of loneliness. I think Mother Nature is this big thing watching over all these small creatures. This is something Holden does not have. It might also connect to his mother. This sense of protection over the little things in life. Kind of the protection Holden has toward two women in his life. His mother and his sister. Also the fact that this quote is coming from a stranger shows Holden find this comfort in strangers because they can't judge him and they don't know who he is. He could be anyone he wants. A person who isn't lonely and depressed and someone he is not. A perfect person in his mind. Also it rises the question is mother nature controlling olden's life too? Or do these thought seven cross Holden's mind, or is he to busy in his own head and story for himself?
“People are always ruining things for you” (pg. 87”)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden trick himself into thinking everything that happens to him, is someone else’s fault?
Holden Just told a lie to Lillian and her Navy boyfriend about how he has to meet up with someone at the moment. Seconds later, Holden has to leave so that Lillian won’t know Holden lied. He then blames himself having to leave on Lillian, even though it was himself that caused this to happen. I think Holden blames stuff on everyone else so that he doesn’t think of himself as the problem. What also makes me curious is why Holden’s so upset he has to leave if he wasn’t having a good time in the first place. He said he was bored and all watching couples to his left and right talk and have fun. I guess Holden just needs an excuse to blame someone for what’s going on in his life.
You took mine ! I agree with this as well because Holden always makes up excuses for leaving or being bored or something. He never blames himself. Always judging others and makes it their fault for being so boring.
DeleteI think Holden “tricks himself,” as you stated, into believing that every bad thing is someone else’s fault, because it gives him one less thing to feel insecure about. Throughout the course of the novel, it has become evident that Holden struggles with his self-esteem. I guess the idea of himself being at fault is foreign to him. Holden sees so much negativity—so many bad people—in the world, that the possibility of him being the cause of trouble, to him, seems like nothing but an afterthought.
Delete“I took her dress over to the closet and hung it up for her. It was funny. It made me feel sort of sad when I hung it up. I thought of her going in the store and buying it, and nobody in the store knowing she was a prostitute and all. The salesman probably just thought she was a regular girl when she bought it. It made me feel sad as hell—I don’t exactly know why.” (Page 96)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Could Holden Caulfield’s sympathizing nature towards Sunny, the prostitute, be a result of him being able to empathize with her?
If there is one prominent characteristic about Holden Caulfield, it is that he tends to feel sorry for the people he encounters. In this scenario, Holden brings up a valid point about this certain prostitute: that if seen in solitude, Sunny may just seem like an average, naïve girl. Through this quote, I believe that Holden is trying to assert the idea that every individual, including himself, is going through some sort of struggle in their life, something that they are insecure of being able to overcome. Holden claims, “The salesman probably thought she was a regular girl when she bought it. It made me feel sad as hell”—could Holden’s unreasonable sadness towards the prostitute’s situation be because he knows that people will categorize him, like they categorize Sunny, as ordinary, despite him being anything but? I think yes.
I think that the reason why Holden was “sad” was more a result of him being able to empathize with her. The concept of seeming or appearing as a different person on the street than what you actually are is something that the author has mentioned before. For example, on page 61, he talks about the cross-dresser. We later inferred in class (I think you brought it up!) that the author brings up the cross-dresser to tell us that someone can appear differently when you see him or her on the street than what his/her character actually is inside. He brings this up again with the prostitute and how a salesman can see “Sunny” as a regular girl on the outside, but she’s actually not, she’s a prostitute. The author will probably continue to do this to show that Holden actually isn’t this tough guy who’s got everything figured out. He actually has no idea what his path is.
Delete“ ‘Where who goes?’
ReplyDelete‘The ducks. Do you know, by any chance? I mean does somebody come around in a truck or something and take them away, or do they fly away by themselves- Go south or something?’”
A question that I asked myself while reading today was why is Holden so fixated on the ducks? He asked about what happens to the ducks in the lake in Central Park several times throughout the story, I wonder why? I wonder if the ducks will become an important symbol in “Catcher in the Rye,” just like the red hunting hat.
I think the author uses the ducks as a symbol to sort of represent Holden. He uses it repeatedly throughout the story, starting from the very beginning when Mr. Spencer was stalking to Holden on page 13. Holden also asks both cab drivers about what the ducks do in the winter in chapters 9 and 12. I think the author keeps on using this symbol of the ducks and how they migrate to represent Holden. In the winter for example, all the ducks migrate south, they know exactly where to go. They travel together. Holden on the other hand, does not know where to go or what his path is for the future, as we already established that he hates thinking about the future. Maybe Holden is a little lost, mentally, which is why he’s interested in the ducks who are never lost and can simply fly away and escape whenever they need to. The author will most likely continue to bring up these ducks because they almost represent Holden and what he wants to be, only not literally. (haha)
"Depressed and all. I almost wished I was dead." (Page.90)
ReplyDelete* Why is Holden always depressed ?
- Holden's dealing with depression for various reasons. Hes lonely, he doesn't have any friends. He always asks strangers to have a drink with him and then gets depressed because of the rejection. Hes always judging people and he seems very picky on who he would open up to. For instance, when he was talk to Faith he said his real name because he wanted to be able to express himself with people he doesn't know. With Lillian and the Navy guy he doesn't want to be with them because hes being judgmental and thinks they are phonies and morons. Another example is when he invites the prostitute he doesn't want to do anything with her. He just wants to sit down and talk.
"what I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out of the window , I probably would have done it -- If I had been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed......I didn't want a bunch of rubbernecks looking at me"
ReplyDeletewhat does Holden mean when he refers to being covered up as soon as he falls? What is Holden's perspective toward suicide?
In my perceptive this quote means that Holden's depression is getting the best of himself and his confidence in even noticing that he is somebody in life. Holden felling lonely makes him realize that there is nobody else to care for or to worry about when he is dead, he doesn't have to make any type of arrangements or wonder how other people or family members would suffer because of his absence. in the back of his mind he is probably thinking to himself, "what am I that is so significant or useful to anybody if I'm always being beaten like if I was nothing just a lousy little rich boy looking for a friend?" I actually felt like being lonely in such a crowded city can really bring your self-esteem to even death and destroying your life. I think Holden's perspective to suicide is almost an escape to all of his problems he doesn't have to suffer any rejection from anybody or any more pain that can he can handle his own self. He thinks that its any easy way out for him and all of his problems in life he doesn't have to questioned his next step. I think that Holden feels that when he dies he just doesn't want people to feel sorry for him at all knowing that he is always putting this front between his friends and himself. it almost seems that he wants to put his death short and simple just like the way he described the death of Allie