1)
Write a response, choosing a line and explaining it's significance to
you. Please remember: no plot re-cap! Share your analysis, make
connections to the world, ask questions, and deepen
your thinking-- this one is up to you where you want to go with your response, but please make sure that your writing has depth to it. What meaning does this passage reveal? A
3-sentence blog post is not sufficient!
2) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post! Answer their questions, or pose a question of your own!
Try some of these sentence starters:
"I wonder why..."
"I'm surprised that..."
"I don't understand..."
"I was struck by..."
"It's interesting that..."
"I'm bothered that..."
"The central issue here seems to be..."
"If I were a character inside this text..."
Boy, when you're dead they really fix up. I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddamn cemetry. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Saturday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers on your dead body? Nobody.- Pg.155
ReplyDeleteI wonder why he thinks this way when he is all alone. He doesn't want like a funeral or anything like that. He just want to be dump in the river, doesn't want to be seen dead at all. He does mention that a lot that he doesn't want to be seen dead. But when he mentions the flowers and the cemetry, it all starts to feel more weird. He doesn't want to be with flowers. He doesn't want anything but to be left alone. He even mentions his brother Allie how he forgot his funeral. He doesn't wantt that to happen to him.
I was going to use this quote.
DeleteI don’t think Holden’s hatred towards funerals is “weird,” as you stated, in the slightest. His passionate dislike towards burial ceremonies feels natural to me. Honestly, who enjoys funerals? I don’t.
I think Holden wouldn’t want a funeral for himself, because he does not believe that death is something that should be smoothed over with something as “phony” as red roses and farewell rituals. Through this quote, Holden asserts the idea that though flowers might make some people more optimistic towards the idea of death, at the end of the day, red roses and yellow daffodils will not bring the dead back to life. A ceremony consisting of farewell letters and vibrant flowers won’t change the fact that tomorrow; no one will be arising from the dead. Not Allie. No one.
"All the visitors could get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go someplace nice for dinner- everybody except Allie."
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows Holden thinks as though everyone abandoned Allie and he deserved better than that. Throughout the book Holden is so lonely and depressed; he probably doesn't want Allie to feel that way. The central issue here seems to be whenever Holden says something's not right with someone, it's as if he relates it back to himself. For example, when Holden talks about feeling sorry for someone; he probably says that because he has no one to feel sorry for him. Another example is when talking about the dopey, all muscle and no brain guys that girls usually end up with, Holden tells it as though he never wants to turn out like that. Despite Holden saying, it's like he refers it back to himself in a way.
pg.156
DeleteI totally agree with you that Holden does not want to leave Allie alone at the cemetery and the thought of it makes Holden depressed, but I also feel like this is a moment of understanding for Holden, that his brother is dead, stuck in the cemetery, and never to leave. For many kids, the thought of death is one that is very hard to comprehend, as they do not understand how someone could leave and never come back. In Angela's Ashes when Oliver dies, Eugene spends the next weeks and months calling and looking, under beds and in the cupboards, for his twin Oliver, who left one night and never came back, and Eugene can’t understand why, as he is so small. I believe that Holden also has this child mentality, and in a way it is still hard for him to believe that when everyone leaves to take shelter from the rain, Allie can’t come with them because he is gone, and won’t ever come back.
Delete"But when I got inside this phone booth, i wasn't much in the mood anyone to give old Jane a buzz. I was too drunk, i guess. So what I did, I gave old Sally Hayes a buzz."(pg150)
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that he didn't want to call Jane because he was drunk but he could call Sally Hayes. Why cant he call call Jane while drunk but can call Sally? This confused me because i thought him and Jane were close so why would it bother her if he was drunk. Was he afraid he might say something he's not supposed to because he's so drunk ? If i were to have a friend like Jane that I'm so close too i would, is he embarrassed of what he's become ? Was he getting closer to Sally than to Jane ? On page 151 Holden says "G'Night. G'Night, Sally baby. Sally sweetheart darling." This threw me off because i thought he now likes Sally more because when Holden's drunk he usually speaks his mind more. I wonder if he's starting to let go of Jane for than he's starting to let go of his childhood ?
Honestly, I didn't understand this quote because I thought Holden and Jane were close and can tell anything to each other, but then he wants to call Sally. I think this is because when you are drunk you are mind is being taken over and your body can't function. Holden's mind is telling him to talk to Sally and call her his sweetheart, but Holden doesn't want to. He also says in Chapter 16 " I didn't feel much like going. I'd made that damn date with Sally, though."(pg.122) Holden personally doesn't want to get closer to Sally, but he wants to get closer to Jane. I agree with you that I'm not sure that if he wants to start letting go of Jane completely or that he wants date Sally?
DeleteI agree that it's interesting that he didn't want to call Jane but called Sally instead. However I disagree that he's gotten closer to Sally than Jane because, I think Holden is just subconsciously using Sally to stall his path to "nowhere". Also I don't think that he's getting over Jane because the reason he's abstaining from talking to her is probably because he's nervous and doesn't know what to say to her. Many teenagers feel it's awkward to talk to the person they've once liked due to their previous history.
DeleteI agree with you Erybel because Holden keeps on wanting to talk to Jane but he is never in the mood. When he is drunk he speaks his mind and he is being honest in a way compare to when he is not drunk and hiding his feelings and his true self that is what I don't get because when he is drunk he is telling us all these things he usually doesn't tell people because he puts up this "Front" and I also agree with the fact that if Holden called Jane while he was drunk she would not be able to recognize who he has become because she would know that it's not the same Holden they played golf together.when they were little kids and before about him being drunk and speaking his ideas and thoughts did he really mean't it when he called sally sweetheart?
Delete“ I was the only guy at the bar with a bullet in their guts. I kept putting my hand under my jacket, on my stomach and all, to keep the blood from dripping all over the place. I didn’t want anybody to know I was even wounded.” (pg.150)
ReplyDeleteI believe that J.D. Salinger is using Holden’s drunken hallucinations, the bullets in his gut and blood dripping out, to metaphorically describe Holden's current mentality, that he is “slowly dying on the inside” from depression, and in both scenarios, trying to conceal it. Holden is sitting at the bar, trying to stop all his feelings, depression, from bleeding out. Holden also feels like he is the only one suffering, “I was the only guy with a bullet in their guts”. The rejection, depression, and loneliness he is feeling, are the shots to the gut from “Rocky’s mob”, the entire world, that have left him on the streets, without a home, and bleeding out all that is left of him. This hallucination is identical to that after Maurice punches Holden in the guts, and Holden lays there alone, wishing that he could kill himself, and end the pain from all of the wounds. Both times, Holden is alone and wishes he could call Jane, “to have her come over and bandage up my guts”(pg.104), as he feels like she could have the power to fix his agony, but yet doesn’t call her, as he claims not not feel like it.
I agree with you. Holden both when he is drunk at the bar hallucinating that he has been shot, and after Maurice punches him and takes the five dollars and he hallucinates being shot, thinks of Jane to come and save him. I think that Jane is his only real friend, so when Holden is in pain he goes to her for help, even though he never actually ends up calling her. Also when Holden is drunk and hallucinating and goes to the phone booth to call Jane but then decides to call Sally instead (page 150), I think that it was really smart of him. If he were to call Jane he might scare her off by saying similar things as what he said to Sally such as, "You want me trimma tree for ya? Ya want me too huh?" (page 151) and scare off the one girl that seems to really mean something to him.
DeleteThat was another thing that struck me. Why would he think about such a thing? Maybe, this is exactly how Holden feels like. He's been shot....he can't move, he's holding on to himself for dear life. I think this metaphorically summarizes Holden's teenage years. He begins to feel suicidal which he felt before, but as he begins to go deep into death and the though of it, it is frightening.
Delete"Nobody's gonna kill me. Use your head. In the first place, I'm going away. What I may do, I may get a job on a ranch or something for a while."(pg.165)
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why Holden talks about getting a job to Phoebe, but in class we were discussing that Holden doesn't want to grow up. I think it is because he is frightened by his parents and doesn't want to tell them, that he got kicked out 4 prep schools. I think a reason why talks about bringing up to Phoebe that he is going to get a job because he wants to make his sister happy. It reminds of like when you do something wrong, but you promise you will do what the other's person wants. "C'mon, hey Phoeb."(pg.165) I disagree with myself, that I don't think he wants to grow up, yet maybe it is reason to want to grow up because he doesn't want to get in trouble by his parents. "You did. You did, she said.Then she smacked me again with her fist. If you don't think that hurts you're crazy."Daddy'll kill you!'' she said.
I agree with you Kiran. I feel that Holden cares about not making his parents upset about being rejected from these schools but also that Phoebe is upset with him about it and it hurts him. Holden tells Phoebe that he would move to Colorado and get a job but why would he go there? It feels like to me that Holden has his moments when he does start to worry about his future, like when he talked to Sally about getting married, however this moment was just to give Phoebe an answer of what he's going to do with his life. She obviously is very angry with Holden for being kicked out of school and she even keeps repeating "Daddy'll kill you!"
Delete
DeleteKiran I strongly agree with I also believe that Holden is talking about getting a job to make his sister. I believe this because Holden knows that has been a true failure to his family since he was the only child that wasn't able to accomplish many things like his siblings. I believe that he tells his sister he will get a job as a way to prove that he can move on from a negative situation to try to make it better. Furthermore, I believe that he tells his sister that he will get a job since this way he will become less of a worry for both his sister and parents since this shows that he is leaving his trouble making past behind and turning into a responsible young adult that wants the best for himself. In conclusion, he tells old Phoebe that he will get a job because she is one of the few people that care about him and so he wants to make her proud by doing good choices because he doesn't want to make Phoebe go through the same pain he did when he was child just like her.
"I started thinking how old Phoebe would feel if I got pneumonia and died. It was a childish way to think, but I couldn't stop myself. She'd feel really bad if something like that happened. She likes me a lot. She's quite fond with me. She really is. Anyway, I couldn't get that off my mind, so finally what I figured I'd do, I figured I'd sneak home and see her, in case I died and all." (p156)
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Holden keeps talking about getting pneumonia and dying in this chapter. I know that he's drunk but he says himself that he feels quite better. So when he says this was going through the course of his mind? Not only that but he was more worried about the impact his death would be on Phoebe. I think this is because when Allie died, maybe Holden wasn't able to give him good-bye. Holden mat not have said so himself but he and Allie were pretty close and so are Holden and Phoebe. He is drunk at the moment but he just doesn't want to regret anything that might effect his little sister if something ever happens to him. So maybe this is why Holden is worried that if he dies of pneumonia, what would happen to Phoebe? Would she be forced to grow up and take his role as the oldest just like right after Allie died?
Holden is not selfish at all. He thinks about how Phoebe and the other members of his family would feel if he died. But, why does he think that he is going to die? Although I think that being drunk plays a huge role in this, I think that he is stressed out. Could Holden want to die? In other parts of the book Holden thinks about committing suicide. I think that Holden does not want to think about his future: specifically the consequences he will face after getting kicked out of another school. He must be very nervous. Later in the chapter, Phoebe is even nervous for him. I think that Holden is scared of his parents.
DeleteI agree and disagree with you Neely. Holden has his moments when he doesn't care about what happens to him, but when he was talking with Sally about running away and when he was telling Phoebe about getting a job, I think not only to make Phoebe feel better but I also felt like he meant it. I mean how many schools can Holden get kicked out of before his parents give up on him? How many schools until Holden himself realizes that his life is going nowhere? Maybe this is Holden little by little, slowly and slowly realizing that he is going to have to do something with his life before his parents give up on him and he gives up on him self. So I think that Holden might learn that he has to grow up no matter how much he tries to stay away from it. Also regarding Holden wanting to die, I think that in a way Holden meant it when he said that he wanted to die. His life is pretty screwed up. He was drunk and just thought that he was going to die so he wanted to say a good bye that Allie was never able to give. He has a family that cares, just like Neely said that Phoebe gets very concerned for him as well, but how long will that care and concern for Holden's future last?
DeleteI agree with the fact that he is worried about what might happen to Phoebe if he dies , but i disagree that phoebe would have to grow up faster and be the oldest in the house because they do Have an older brother(D.B) that lives in Hollywood.What i think Holden is saying is what will happen to Phoebe on an emotional level if he dies.
Delete"Hey Sally! You want me trimma tree for ya? Ya want me too huh?"
ReplyDelete"Yes. Good night. Go home and go to bed."
She hung up on me.
"G'night. G'night, Sally baby. Sally sweetheart darling" (pg 151)
It's interesting that Holden is having this conversation with Sally while he is drunk because for a lot of people being drunk makes you think less, and you end up saying crazy things, but you usually also end up saying some truthful things that you wouldn't have said sober. Holden was going to originally call Jane, but then once he got into the phone booth he decided not to. I wonder why this is. Maybe it is because even though he is extremely drunk some part of him does't want to mess things up with Jane. I also don't really understand what he means when he repeatedly says "you want me trimma tree for ya?" to Sally. Does this mean that he is asking if she wants to be his girlfriend because you usually do things like that on Christmas with your close family and friends? Or is he just completely drunk and has no idea what he is saying. It was also very interesting when he said, "G'night. G'night, Sally baby. Sally sweetheart darling", after Sally had hung up the phone. I think that Holden has reached an all time low at this point, he is really showing us his desperation for a girlfriend or even just a friend.
I think one other reason why Holden would call Sally instead of Jane is that he just doesn’t care if he is drunk when he calls her. He has already messed thing up with her when he called her a “pain in the ass” so no matter what he says; it won’t make things any better. He doesn’t care if he says something stupid because he doesn’t value that relationship. This also ties into your point about him not wanting to ruin things with Jane. He knows he might say something stupid since he’s drunk and feeling depressed, so he doesn’t want to hurt Jane. I think also Holden was scared to call Jane again because he was worried about what he was even going to say if she picked up. He is so nervous to call her he won’t because he loves her. She means a lot to him. He wouldn’t want her image of him to be him calling her up drunk and saying something mean or rude or stupid, so he calls Sally because he just doesn’t care that deeply about her.
Delete“He didn’t answer me. He just went out. He was all through combing his hair and patting it and all, so he left. Like Stradlater. All these handsome guys are the same. When they’re done combing their goddamn hair, they beat it on you.” (152-153)
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me wonder about the types of friendships Holden has. This quote seems to show that when he has friendships with people who look better than him or are more put together than him, they only stay while they are building themselves up. They are only friends with him before they are popular enough to leave him. Holden isn’t friends with the right kind of people. He is always with people who just up and leave him. This may be why Holden is so lonely all the time. But the reason eh even hangs out with these types of people he calls “phonies” and “bastards” is because is so lonely that he doesn’t really have any other people to talk to. That’s why he call up Luce, even though Holden says, “I once called him a fat-assed phony.”(137) He has no one else to call after he breaks up with Sally, so he can only call people who will leave him when something better comes along or they have just become too popular to be friends with Holden. I also wondered why Holden doesn’t “comb his hair”, and become popular himself. I think maybe he is just too rude and closed minded to a lot of people and he is still like a kid in a lot of ways. That’s why Luce asks Holden if he’s ready to grow up, “’When are you going to grow up?’ “(144) Holden most acts like a kid when he is around his friends form school, which may be why “they beat it on you”. They don’t want to be around someone who’s so immature all the time and be friends with them. Jane seems to be the closest friend he has. Holden doesn’t want to act too grown up or too childish and ruin what he has with her. Since all of his other friends are “morons” he doesn’t care if they get mad at him and leave him, or at least he tells himself he doesn’t. But with Jane he knows that if he ruins their friendship, he won’t be able to recover, so he treats their relationship with more care. Holden is mostly in friendships where people leave him or he is to deeply involved, like with Jane.
"I didn't want anybody to know I was even wounded."
ReplyDeleteI had to read this sentence a couple of times to understand it. I know he is drunk and he think he is shot but I found it to have a double meaning. I feel that Holden is a sick boy who is very depressed and he doesn't want anyone to know it so he hides it with this sarcastic, negative voice he uses. This shows Holden sensitive side more. I think he does not want people to know he is "wounded" I think his wound is his mental wound. Also I think the reason when he gets drunk and think he is shot has to do with the fact he is so sad. His body and mind is calling out for help but when Holden is conscious he doesn't know how to .
"I thought probably I'd get pneumonia and die" Pg. 154
ReplyDeleteThis quote is Holden's first real indication of death. The sentences and paragraphs that follow go into detail about what everyone would think or do if he died. He got real into it, which tells us he might have sducidal thoughts in the future. What if Holden does commit suicide? It would be expected. He's depressed, lonely, scared to upset his parents, and getting drunk and thinking about death near a lake. It's a scary situation to be in. Holden is still in this phase, that he seems to be stuck in. He can't find himself, especially in New York. It all goes back to the discussion about the setting. New York is big enough for someone to get lost, Holden is lost, maybe he's thinking death is the answer. A couple times now, he would refer to going away to Colorado, or a dude ranch, away from the city. I don't blame him, you can get lost, and pretty lonesome being by yourself in a city that is NY.
I agree with you. I feel that over the course of the whole book so far, Holden has started to grasp the idea of death more and more. He brings up ideas of suicide several times, and then talks about dying of pneumonia. I think he's slowly getting less and less scared of death, and instead is beginning to think of it as a solution, instead of something that should be unthinkable.
DeleteI agree with what you are saying. Holden is in a scary place. I do not think Holden really knows how to get out of it unfortunately. I feel Holden is a lost and is just looking for answers but he doesn't know where to turn. It is hard to be a teenager too. Especially for Holden who is depressed and looks into alcohol for an answer. I also agree with you that you don't blame him for thoughts about running away. If I was Holden I probably would also have the same thoughts.
DeleteI agree with both of you. I also think that he and every other teenager, has times where they feel like their life is going down hill they start having suicidal thought like what Hebh said. I also agree with Naava because it see's like he's fearless of death, which may be a concern because if he keeps thinking about these suicidal thoughts we might just no have a Holden by the end of the book.
DeleteI strongly agree with you because Holden is trying to almost convince himself that death is the only possible answer of his problems and conflicts with the society but his world. I guess I wouldn't think suicide is the possible answer of problems, you can talk to someone in NYC. That's the ironic part of NYC because there are millions of people and Holden would feel so lonely and depressed that he has nobody to talk to...
DeleteI DISAGREE with all of you. In the nicest possible way. I don't think Holden is thinking of suicide. I do however feel that he associates death with "fake" people. By this I mean, Holden explains how when Allie did, all these people he'd never heard of or seen before all show up to the funeral and act like they were always there for Allie. They act all depressed even though some of them may have never had any association with Allie. I think Holden's afraid of death because he doesn't want that to happen to himself.
Delete“Boy, when you’re dead, they really fix you up. I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddamn cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you’re dead? Nobody.” (page 201 in my book)
ReplyDeleteWhat is Holden’s perspective on death and what happens when you die?
I think Holden just thinks more than anything, that he doesn't want a big up-do about a funeral. He’d hate for people to come from far and wide just because he’s gone. I think he also finds it wrong to have a big funeral and invite relatives that he never sees, because if he never knew them while he was alive, why should it matter to them that he died? He hates phonies, and he finds the whole procedure to seem fake and not really worth it. He says, “Who wants flowers when you’re dead? Nobody.” By this, he’s talking about how people just want to matter when they’re alive, and he finds it upsetting that most people really only tend to matter when they’re gone. He’d rather mean something to someone while he’s living than only have people feel sorry for him when he’s dead. If he dies he’d rather just be gone once and for all, instead of having a place where people can go to remember him when he was alive. It also relates to how he feels about Allie’s death. He says that he hated how when it started to rain at the graveyard, all the visitors could go back to their cars and visit somewhere nice, but Allie couldn't. He hated how Allie wasn't there with him, and he was instead buried six feet under. I think Holden doesn't want to be like that for someone else, which is why he’d rather just be gone once and for all when he dies. He doesn't want to be dead in the world of the living, and he feels that death should just be death, instead of huge big rituals about celebrating people when they were alive, because the fact of the matter is that all of that should have been done while the person was living. He wants to matter while he is alive, rather than just be known later on for being dead.
"Then something terrible happened just as I got in the park. I dropped old phoebe's record. It broke into about fifty pieces. it was a big envelope and all, but it broke anyway. I damn neared cried, it made me feel so terrible, but all I did was, I took the pieces out of the envelope and put them in my coat. They weren't any good for anything but I didn't feel like just throwing them away.
ReplyDeleteMy question is why would Holden still keep it knowing that it has been broken up into fifty different pieces. Well this quote really showed me how much Holden cares about Phoebe because she is just a little kid and he loves little kids because phoebe reminded Holden a lot like himself. I think that the record reminded Holden of Phoebe and when it was broken it felt like he lost phoebe in a way because he hasn't seen her in so long and he was looking forward to seeing her and how happy she was going to look like when he handed her the record. Which is why I also think why Holden sort of cried because he misses phoebe a lot and his childhood because the record was made from little kids to listen to and so it may also be that the record reminded him a lot of what it felt like during his childhood.We all know how important childhood is to Holden and how he still wishes that he was still a kid and not have to grow up and be like those judge mental adults and even though it was still broken he kept it which I am still confused about.
I agree with you when you said the CD metaphorically represented Phoebe and Holden's strong relationship. Although I've never thought about it that way I see where your coming from. If your right, is this why he decided to go visit Phoebe? I know being close with your siblings is a good thing but he seems a bit to close, like they've never fought before. I know that Holden still wants to be kid but why does he obsess over them? You kind of answer that question in your paragraph by saying that he misses his childhood and Phoebe, all kids, remind him of his own childhood. I don't understand why he doesn't want to grow up. Even though he said that when he was kid things were more simple he doesn't know what going to happen in the future. So I think he kept the CD, for some type of reassurance just in-case it would come in handy.
Delete“Boy was I shivering like a bastard and the back of my hair, even though I had my hunting hat on, was full of little hunks of ice. That worried me. I thought I probably would get pneumonia and die.” pg. 154
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read this sentence I really wanted to know why Holden was just sitting there and not immediately leaving the park to find someplace warmer. Then I thought back to when he first wanted to commit suicide and didn’t do it because he didn’t want a whole bunch of “rubbernecks looking at me when he was all glory.” (pg. 104) Now he’s worried about dying but doesn’t want to get up but he then makes another excuse and forgets about it by throwing coins in the lake. Although many people have said that this book is about Holden finding himself, it seems as if he really just doesn’t want to. Another thing I’ve notices about Holden through this quote is that he’s a procrastinator. He never really likes to fix problems instead he just walks away from them. For example when Phoebe, his younger sister, was stressing herself over Holden getting kicked out of school, he ended up leaving her there and taking a few cigarettes. In conclusion, Holden doesn’t seem very interested in life.
I agree. I also thought that him sitting by the lake in the cold complaining about getting pneumonia was him trying to commit suicide. I disagree with your opinion that Holden is not trying to find himself. I say this because this was one on the first moments that Holden took a huge risk by wanting to go home because he thought of how him dieing would affect his sister. I saw this as Holden finding himself in a way or satrting to find himself.
Delete"All I ever meet is the witty bastards." (152)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because we're more than half way through the book and he is continuously asking for us to feel sympathy for him. He is always so negative and thinks he has to go through the worst, but he really doesn't. It's gotten to the point where his want for us to pity him is getting annoying. He does NOT always end up with witty people like he says he does. We've established that he is a very negative judgmental person but he doesn't have to show it off by putting his opinion into it and telling us constantly.
“Then something terrible happened just as I got in the park. I dropped old Phoebe’s record. It broke into about fifty pieces. It was in a big envelope and all, but it broke anyway. I damn near cried, it made me feel so terrible, but all I did was, I took the pieces out of the envelope and put them in my coat pocket, They weren't any good for anything but I didn’t feel like just throwing them away.” (154) I am not surprised that Holden is emotional when he breaks Phoebe’s record. Afterall, Phoebe is the one thing that Holden would never give up. When I read this passage, I felt bad for Holden. But, it connected to the saying, “what comes around goes around.” Holden was drunk, and had just ran away from school. Holden needs to learn that drinking will not distract him from his reality. When Holden dropped the record, Holden dropped the little part of childhood, and Phoebe that he was carrying with him. Was this why he needed to go see Phoebe? I picked this quote because it made me feel horrible for Holden. Everything seems to be heading downhill for him.
ReplyDelete*I wrote this before I saw Lily's comment. Sorry!
DeleteI think the reason Holden was so emotional when he broke the record was because he thought of the record as Phoebe and him breaking it or letting go of it to fall and break shows how Holden is loosing Phoebe (her innocence with the guys she hooks up with). I also think the reason why Holden kept the pieces was because he wanted to keep what was left of the record (or Phoebe). Holden also makes strong attachments to items, as in his hat.
DeleteWho wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody. when the weather's nice, my parents go out quite frequently and stick a bunch of flowers on old Allie's grave.... " page 155
ReplyDeleteI wonder what Holden's perspective towards death?, I think that Holden isn't really afraid of dying anymore, the way he is actually describing the consequences or outcomes of him no longer being alive. Holden is saying how his mother cannot possibly deal with another death because she is still suffering from Allie's death and now just out of nowhere she finds out her son is dead, it something that Holden is having sympathy for. Its probably a phase that someone can really react towards something so powerful in your life that your not even sure if somebody will miss you or not. Holden is at this very moment that he is rejected not only by his friends but also himself, he is always contradicting who he is and where he fits in? You know sometimes I think similar to Holden because there is a point in your teenage lives that your wandering if you are ever going to be accepted by who you are. I guess in a way that really affects if you will always be lonely in your life or be able to settle in a certain place Even though he isn't afraid of dying, it seems like he doesn't want people to feel sorry for him or remember him as the guy who didn't have a future or a "life". he rather just makes it to the point, that he doesn't want flowers, or a funeral or even surrounded by other dead people. He basically wants to be alone and sort of fell invincible in some intellectual way and still have a person to be with or talk to that hasn't change. In the back of Holden's mind he is probably saying to himself, "What is the point of having flowers if you will never know what happened at the very moment or you cant actually judge the way somebody organizes a funeral because your not alive anymore." If I was able to actually answer this question I will agree with him and also understand his way of thinking and his judgmental side towards people, I feel like death is a very difficult topic to talk about because you never really know who will be there or not, you have nothing to talk about or even think about because your not alive, so maybe that's the reason why he feels that why bother go to a funeral if you know that the next day you will just move on in your life and forget that the person is dead, maybe that's what happen towards Allie.
“I don't know what the hell it is. It isn't cauliflower and it isn't perfume – I don't know what the hell it is – but you always know you're home.” (Page 158)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it shows that even though Holden hasn't been home in a while he still remembers the smell and what it was like to be home. Its interesting that this quote shows how much he missed his home every time he spent trying to run away so he won't disappoint his parents. I can relate to this as well because when ever I go sleep over at my aunts for a few days I come home and I always smell my moms curry. Sometimes I hate it and sometimes I'm just happy as if I haven't been here in a while. As for Holden, he actually ran away from his parents. Even though hes scared of his parents yelling he still cares for his sister. For Holden right now, I think shes and Jane are the only ones keeping him in search of his identity. He seems to still care but not show it as much.
I agree with you when you said that even though Holden hasn't been home for a while he still remembers the smell and what it was like to be home. I agree with you because I think that Holden tried to put up a front when he kept on saying that he'd like to run away and go to to Massachusetts or something (132) but he actually misses home a lot. The way that he described the smell of the parlor and knowing all the small details such as the creaky door shows us that Holden really missed his home.
DeleteI agree! I think it is actually very sweet and touching that even after traveling so many places and going through so many different experiences with schools, je still comes back home and knows that familiar smell.
Delete"'Cut it out, now' she said. 'Nobody's gonna kill me. Nobody's gonna even- C'mon, Phoeb, take that goddam thing off your head ."' ( pg. 165)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me. It stood out to be because it really shows how Holden takes the things his sister, Phoebe, says or thinks about him. Holden had forgotten about getting in trouble with his parents about him getting kicked out of school again, after he saw his sister, Phoebe. She made him feel like he was really home and that he wasn't alone in the world. Phoebe thinking that their father was going to kill Holden not only made Holden see it as a reality, but also made Phoebe sad- which mad Holden sad. The fact that Phoebe thought about Holden being killed also cause Holden to go back to being depressed and alone because he was thinking about his father killing him. Phoebe also stopped engaging in a conversation with him.
"I felt swell, for a change. I didnt even feel like I was getting pneumonia or anything any more. i just felt good, for a change." pg 159
ReplyDeleteThis quote actually stood out to me because I rememeber in the beginning if the book that Holden kind of thiught his parents were a bit annoying and strange and too touchy, as he would say it. But, I love the fact that when Holden walks into his home he automatically describes the strange smell that the house carries along with it and he explains that the smell is actually what makes him recognize his home. I thought this quote was actually very beautiful because even though Holden does describe his parents in a weird way and call his brother a bit of a phony and had to go through all the trouble with Allie, he still feels relaxed and comfortable in his own home.
“‘. . . I’m going away.’” (Page 165)
ReplyDeleteHolden is very oblivious to the consequences that may follow his actions. He says, “Oh. I’ll run away. I’ll find a job,” but is it really that easy? Though, I was very much inspired by this quote to write a passage. It is my depiction of what is genuinely going inside Holden’s mind in contrast to what he admits aloud. The she, in the passage, is not established, however, she can be played by Sally Hayes.
She stares accusingly into my eyes, her dark pupils gleaming with curiosity. Her eyes are deep blue, and, like the sea, they are easy to drown in. “What are you thinking about?” she asks, her gaze not leaving mine. Her tone is soft . . . her demeanor, demanding.
I’m planning my escape, I think. As she is inquisitively raising her thin eyebrows, I am imagining myself walking out that door and never looking back. I’m picturing myself somewhere—anywhere—finally finding my place.
I don’t admit anything aloud. Instead, I stare into the distance, my mind squirming with possibilities of the beyond.
“Nothing,” I say.
"so what i did, i started walking over to the park. I figured i'd go by that little lake and see what the hell the ducks were doing, see if they were around or not." pg. 153
ReplyDeletethis quote stood out to me because it shows how holden is still thinking about the ducks and is still wondering what to do with himself. he's been told by sally and the 'hat-check girl' to go home and sleep but he ignores their comments and decides to go to the park. he said he has no where to go and so i believe he's going to the ducks to see what they're doing and do something similar. he seems to refer the ducks as guidance, since its winter and times are rough for ducks they've left home and he's not at his home because he was kicked out of pencey. i believe holden is just waiting for the ducks to be there(lagoon) or to be returning home so he can view it as a sign to go back home. holden seems to be looking for advice on what to do, he's going through rough times but is trying to run away from it. i think also is a reason why holden is asking about the ducks or wondering about them, he knows most probably no person off the street would know so he asks them so he won't have to hear the truth. i notice he didn't ask his friend who went to the ivy league school, he was probably scared to find out what to do.
“All these handsome guys are the same. When they’re done combing their goddamn hair, they beat on you.” (pg. 153”)
ReplyDeleteHow come Holden associates all these guys the same way?
I kind of feel that Holden’s judgment of people isn’t necessarily on how they look, I’m sure a little part is, but after reading this line I feel as if Holden compares everyone he meets/sees to someone he’s been with before. He thinks that all handsome guys “beat on you” when they’re done combing their hair. Same as when he thinks all girls are the same. For Jane, I feel as if Holden makes these excuses in his mind to not compare Jane to other girls because in his head he wants her to stay “perfect”. Holden relies on the past impressions he has on people to help him judge new people he encounters.
I don't think that I could agree more. Holden does not necessarily judge people based on their physical appearance. He compares people to more 'desirable people'. I also agree with what you said about Holden not wanting to bring Jane into all of this, because he views her as ' perfect'. It is like Holden shuts down part of his brain when he is talking about people that he is fond of and when he does not like someone he will go all out.
Delete"I went down near the lagoon and sort of skipped the quarters and the nickel across it, where it was't frozen." (156)
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Holden did this. Holden was already really low on cash and he still had 3 more days to kill until he could officially return home. So why would he literally throw his money out? I came up with a couple of possible answers to this question. First of all, Holden may not really value money that much with his family being so wealthy. Another possible answer is maybe Holden was looking for an excuse to go home. He went home to visit Pheobe right after that, maybe he just wanted an excuse to visit her. Holden said he didn't know why he did it (156) but maybe deep inside there WAS a reason for why he would throw the coins in the lake when he actually needed them. Money and fortune is something Holden talks about repeatedly; I wonder if this event had anything to do with it.
i agree and disagree i was also confused on why he threw the money in to the lake but also i disagree because i think he values money a little like with the suitcases he has to have them with the genuine leather and stuff. but he did it because he wanted to go home i think it was all about Pheobe and how ha missed her so much
Delete" Daddy'll kill you!"( a few line later) " Daddy's gonna kill you." ( pg.165)
ReplyDeleteThis part of the book was very interesting for me. Phoebe kept on saying, " Daddy's gonna kill you." but it really seemed like Phoebe was going to kill Holden. Not literally kill him of course. I think that she was saying this to protect him. She does not want Holden getting kicked out of five schools. Phoebe wants Holden to succeed, but in order to do that she feels that it is her job to help Holden by scolding him like he is a child and she is the parent. I also think that Holden is slightly afraid of Phoebe, because of the way that he responds to her is not very forceful, like Holden usually is.
"I can read that kind of stuff, some kid's notebooks, Phoebe's or anybody's, all day and all night long. Kids notebooks kill me." (pg. 161)
ReplyDeleteFirst off I know it's off topic and has nothing to do with my response, but does relate to the quote, I would just like to say that Holden references to death a lot. One of his catchphrases is "It kills me" which he means as "I love it" or it made him laugh. Uncontentiously Holden might have a bit of an obsession with death. Not saying he wants to kill himself or anything, but it seems like it's in his subconscious a lot and that he thinks about it all the time to a point where he is always saying it, but uses it to mean something else.
Anyways, The quote I chose relates to me because I believe children have a brilliant mind. The questions they have, their imagination, and the way they do things are so abnormal and they do things that people now a days are incapable of doing (as in not caring what people think [pink tutu]). Whenever I visit my younger cousins and hear any of their ideas or stories it sounds quite brilliant. I think that is why Holden can just sit there and read journals of kids and why he finds them so interesting. The world is new to children, so their opinions and beliefs are unbiost and "pure" in a way. Children bring up interesting points and sometimes see things that are simple, but hard for adults to see right away, like solutions, patterns, etc. Holdens fascination with children is probably because he feels the same way I do and also thinks children have a genius way of seeing life.
Pheobe Weatherfield Caufield
ReplyDelete4b-1
"That killed me. Her middle name is Josephine for God's sake, not Weatherfield."
(p. 160)
this confused me a lot because first she reminds me a lot of Holden and how he changed his name for people he didn't now and how he lies about almost everything. also at the beginning of the book i thought that that killed me meant that i like it but in this case it kinda means that he doesn't so is he confused or does he not realize or does he just not have a very big vocabulary. Finally what also confused me was why she choose weatherfield i mean the last part of it is her name of course but did it have any significance even though i realize that no one can really answer that
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