Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
Tuesday, October 1, 2013
A-BAND CATCHER IN THE RYE CHAPTERS 10 & 11
Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
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"You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole life. She's really smart. I mean she's had all A's ever since she started school. As a matter of fact, I'm the only dumb one in my family."--page 67
ReplyDeleteThis particularly quote stood out to me--not because it was at the beginning of the chapter--but for me it feels like one of the first moments in a couple of chapters where Holden is again opening up. I think that for classic books, it is better to go in and out of personal stories and what you're actually trying to get across. I might be wrong but that's how I feel.
I think it's more than just that he's opening up. He says "I'm the only dumb one in the family" he's always bringing himself down by calling himself dumb. So far I don't think anyone has called him stupid or dumb so he must be bringing himself down because that's how he views himself. Other characters like Ackley and Stradlater hate it when people call them moron, and they are morons, and they don't call themselves morons. It's interesting that Holden brings himself down the way he does.
DeleteI sort of disagree with what you are saying here. No, Holden doesn't open up much, but I think the main thing this line is showing is Holden's lack of self-esteem. I think this is the reason that Holden is so lonely and doesn't do well in school, he thinks he can't, while he just never tries.
Delete“As a matter of fact, I’m the only dumb one in the family. My brother D.B.’s a writer and all, and my brother Allie, the one that died, that I told you about, was a wizard. I’m the only really dumb one.” (88)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it shows how Holden truly looks down upon himself and not just others. The reason he always justifies everything he does is because he looks down upon himself, and even if he knows he's wrong about something it makes him feel better knowing that someone else believes him, and actually likes him, even if he doesn’t like that person. Also Holden is a loner and because of that he places himself apart from everyone else so he doesn’t exactly know that much about his family as long as he is isolating himself from it. In the beginning of the book we found out that D.B was a screenplay writer, which proves the obvious fact that he is smart, because otherwise he would not been able to get that particular job. However in the beginning Holden also seems to put D.B. down by saying that he is a prostitute. On the other hand Holden repeats the fact that Allie is dead as though we don’t remember the whole story, because he thinks he downplayed it enough so that it doesn’t seem as though its important. The fact that Holden is so repetitive also proves that he sees himself so low that no one remembers what he says because he doesn’t think anyone will like him for who he really is. This quote also just is really important due to the fact it gives away his emotional stability for the rest of the book. It also makes me wonder why he didn’t mention anything about his parents or Phoebe in this phrase. He mentions her after, stating all these wonderful details about her, yet nothing about her being smarter than him.
I strongly agree with you, Taylor. This quote shows that Holden has a low self-esteem and sets low expectations for himself. I also wonder why he didn't mention anything about Phoebe being smarter than him. It might be because she is still very young.
DeleteI agree completely Taylor, but I think that we have to keep in mind that this book is written from the perspective of Holden, so just because he says that these characters were smarter than him, doesn't necessarily mean that they are. So far in the book we haven't personally met these characters. I think that he does have really low standards for himself though, and I don't think he's a dumb as he tells us he is, I just don't think he applies himself.
DeleteI agree with all three of your points, most definitely. Due to the fact that in every single chapter we get more bits and pieces supporting the fact that Holden's self esteem is low, it shows us that Holden's perspective of himself isn't as strong or confident. What he does is show off the negative flaws of himself, like how he's a bad liar and how he's "illiterate". But he doesn't really talk about the truly good things about himself, like how he actually does know how to read and how great he gets into books. But what I see in Holden is intelligence in the sense of common sense and not really academics.
Delete"You'd like her. I mean if you tell old Phoebe something, she knows exactly what you're talking about." (67)
ReplyDeleteI think these two lines are very gripping. Holden rarely displays his approval or affection for anyone thus far in the novel. However, he openly talks about his sister on page 67 and how likable she is. She clearly plays a large role in Holden Caulfield's life and he adores her. He describes her personality and makes her seem like a perfect little girl. This is why these particular lines stood out to me. Lastly, I am sure that she will appear later in the book.
I agree with you when you say Holden rarely displays approval for anyone. He seems to only really like three people, Allie, Phoebe and Jane Gallagher. And when he talks about any one of them, he describes them endlessly and with a lot of passion and emotion. I think this shows that Holden can be very passionate and loving, but he doesn't show that side of himself to anyone. That could be one of the reasons he lies so often, so that people don't think of him as emotional. He seems to hide his true self from most people he meets.
DeleteI agree with what both if you are saying. Holden seems to just put up with people, but not like them; he just likes to be around people. Like at the Lavender lounge, he spent time with the girls, but didn't like them. I think that he just like to be around other so that he doesn't feel lonely. He only really cares about: Allie, Phoebe, and Jane.
Delete"I held hands with her all the time, for instance. That doesn't sound like much, I realize, but she's terrific to hold hands with." (79)
ReplyDeleteI picked this quote because it's really cute. Most of the Holden talks about a women's beauty whenever he crosses paths with one. In chapter 10 he constantly talks about how the three women in the Lavender room look. He calls them stupid but he still sticks around, I think he only stayed with them because he thought one of them is hot. But with Jane he likes the way she looks but when he talks about her it's not just about her body, it's about her peresonality. It's really sweet how Holden doesn't focus on her body likes most guys and looks past that to who she is as a person.
Tomas Benincasa
DeleteI agree. I think that Holden sticks around the three strangers because he missed Jane's company. Throughout the eleventh chapter, Holden talks about how special them holding hands was, and about how they always went to the movies and spent quality time together. I also think that I cared about her, and that she brought out the better side of him, the one that is caring and sweet. One example of this is when she starts to cry while they are playing checkers and she begins to cry because of the "booze-hound". "Then all of a sudden, this tear plopped down on the checker board... but for some reason it bothered the hell out of me.I got up and made her sit on the gliders so that i could sit next to her." I think that this shows how he cares about her.
I think that because of her date with Stradlater, he felt kind of abandoned or betrayed by her. I feel like he stuck around them to make himself feel like that he had someone in his life that he truly cared about (In a loving, romantic way).
The quote i used was on pp. 78 and pp. 79
Delete"They said they were going to get up early to see the first show at Radio City Music Hall. I tried to get them to stick around for a while, but they wouldn't." (75)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to be because I feel like it really embodies what we were talking about in class today. This quote shows how lonely Holden is and how we will ask ANYONE to stay with him even if he hates them or finds them annoying. In this chapter you learn a lot about Pheobe and Holden's relationship. You also learn about how great of a dancer she is and when the blonde girl from the lavender room even compared to her Holden immediately fell for her in some sort of way. This shows how Holden compares people he meets to his siblings and the people he genuinely does like (which at this point are only his siblings). This quote also shows that anyone who even does say yes to Holden's company eventually leaves and when they leave no matter how much he dislikes then he doesn't want them too. He's at the point in loneliness where he would even love the company of people he truly dislikes.
I agree with this completely because during this chapter in the "club", while he's dancing with the blond, in his mind he keeps on calling her and her friends morons and how they are such unintelligent people. But in the end he almost begs them to stay. I think it's interesting how he associates himself with people he obviously doesn't like. I think that eh should start to make real connections with people (like Jane) and make real friends, for a change.
DeleteI completely agree with you, Lindsey. When he was dancing with the girls in the club, he saw them as morons and ugly girls. However, he's so desperate for company, that he would ask anyone to stay with him. I also agree with the part where he compares Phoebe and the girl dancing with him. He said his sister was an the best dancer in the whole world, "living and dead" and that Bernice was almost as good of a dancer as she was. I also agree with you Celia, about how he should start to make connections with people and make real friends for a change.
Delete"My mother didn't even think Jane was pretty. I just liked the way she looked, that's all." (78)
ReplyDeleteThis line that Holden states confuses me. IN this quote what he is trying to say is that he only "likes" Jane because of the way she looks. On the page before he completely contradicts this quote by saying, "She was a funny girl, old Jane. I wouldn't exactly describe her as strictly beautiful. She knocked me out though." This line is saying that even though she's not the prettiest girl in the world, he loved her personality the best. I think that he gets into the past of all the wonderful time she had with her, and almost confesses his love for her in his mind, but then when he gets back to reality, he tries to cover up his ever liking of her by saying that he only ever liked her face. I think this connects to what we were saying early in the book about him lying to the reader. I think that we need to be careful of what he says, because he sometimes tries to cover up his real feelings with false accusations. All in all I think that he tried to hide his true feelings about Jane and any other things that he can't have. I think that making it seem like Jane isn't that important (by just liking her face), makes her feel less and less important to Holden, even if deep down she's really engraved in his memories.
I agree with you when you say that he does truly like her for more than just looks. He connects with her and seems to care for her deeply. However I have to disagree when you say that he's trying to cover it up by saying she's pretty. He does try to make it seem like it's no big deal from time to time. But here, I think he's just saying that she's no super model or anything but she's pretty in a simple manner. I think he's just adding on to why he likes her. Not only is she amazing but she's not so bad exterior-wise. I also agree with the last thing you said, how she's 'engraved in his memories'. She is one of the few people he has met that he cares for strongly and understands. It's unlikely that he will easily forget about someone like that.
DeleteI totally agree with you Celia. I believe that Holden is always trying to cover up everything he does with something else. For example in the quote that I used, he pretends as though he doesn’t really care so much that Allies’ dead, when in truth anyone can figure out how much his kid brother means to him, even if they weren’t analyzing the book as much as we were in class. However I also believe Holden is just so desperate to feel loved, that by remembering his times with Jane he only sees the good, even though he mentions some of the 'bad' but with these memories he starts to feel what he used to feel. Then he relises he was just fantasizing so he pulls himself back into reality and says what he thinks will make him seem ‘quote on quote’ tough.
Delete"I mean it. I was half in love with her by the time we sat down. That's the thing about girls. Every time they do something pretty, even if if they're not much to look at, or even if they're sort if stupid, you fall half in love with them, and then you never know where the hell you are." Page 73
ReplyDeleteIn this quote, I feel that Holden is contradicting everything he said about the blonde girl prior to dancing with her. Even after he danced with her, he talked bad about her; calling her dopey, a moron, and stupid. This makes me think that Holden only likes people, or maybe just attracted to girls, by what they do; like in this case, it's a good dancer. Even when he was just sitting at the table with them, Holden didn't like her or her friends, but at that specific moment when he was dancing with the blonde girl, Holden felt like he was almost in love with her. He even said that he was about to kiss her on her head, but outside of that he saw here as a moron. I just think that Holden only really likes people if they have something in common with him, or maybe even his siblings.
"She was the only one, outside my family, that I ever showed Allie's baseball mitt to, with all the poems written on it. She'd never met Allie or anything, because that was her first summer in Cape Cod--but I told her quite a lot about him. She was interested in that kind of stuff." (pp. 77)
ReplyDeleteThis line really stood out to me because it shows us that he really trusts Jane because he would tell her something personal about his family that he wouldn't tell anyone else. This fact is supported by the lines, "She was the ONLY one outside of my family, that I ever showed Allie's baseball mitt to...she'd never met Allie or anything because that was her FIRST summer in Cape Cod..." What was interesting about these lines was that Holden would tell a girl he barely knows all about his beloved brother. It was her FIRST summer in Cape Cod and I feel like he really trusted her enough to tell her about his brother's baseball mitt that was very important to him. His brother's death was very tragic for him and the baseball mitt was the one thing that reminded him of Allie. For Holden to tell the whole story behind Allie's baseball mitt and Allie himself, is a huge "accomplishment" that shows us that he really trusts Jane.
I agree, this also makes makes me think that Jane is going to play a very big role later in the book, because Jane seems like one of the only people that he trust aside from his siblings, but for teenagers strong relationships from people outside of your family are a very big deal, so I think that Jane is, or will be, a very important character.
DeleteI strongly agree with your idea. I also thought this quote was extremely important and I had the same feelings about it. I thought it was interesting also that he felt so comfortable with her and show her Allie's mitt. The only person I feel in the book Holden has a relationship like Jane's and his is with Phoebe. I'm guessing there was something about Jane that just felt right that made him feel that he could immediately trust her and this makes me think that she, even though he hasn't seen her in a while, is very important to him. I think this also gives hope to us as the readers that if he can open up to her then maybe he can open up to more people in the future.
DeleteI agree with you Varshini except that I think Holden trusting Jane is a rare thing in his life, because he feels differently about her then most people, I think Jane is one of his only friends.
DeleteThen I tried to get them in a little intelligent conversation, but it was practically impossible. (p.73)
ReplyDeleteIn class today, we talked about how critical he was of others. This quote reveals one reason he might be like that. When looking at people he opened to and cares for, there is one thing he always points out. "He was terrifically intelligent." (p.38) states Holden of Allie. "She's really smart." (p.67) is one thing he describes Phoebe as and he seems to truly like and connect with her. As for Jane, on page 79, he describes her as not like most girls. He doesn't say she's smart or anything but he seems to think so. When he truly connects with someone, it's more mental and emotional. He criticizes a lot of people because he doesn't like feel he can have an honest conversation with them. When he says "I tried to get them in a little intelligent conversation...", by that time, he knew they were more interested in movie stars. It doesn't make them stupid but he needs people who try, like him, to get a better understanding on how "deeper" things are and why. That's why this quote interested me. It gives the reader a better understanding as to why he's lonely which might not always be because he's alone.
This quote stood out to me as well because he definitely seems extremely critical and verges on extremely rude. I remember at this point in the book he was describing the two friends of the blonde girl as the ugly ones. This goes back to what we were talking about in class because he went into that situating with a negative attitude, maybe keeping his expectations for these women low so they wouldn't disappoint him, and keeping a negative attitude so he wont like them and be disappointed by them later on. This also stands out to me because he is basically saying that these women are dumb, but meanwhile, he his constantly saying that he is dumb, so the fact that he is saying that they are unintelligent and he is the one making intelligent conversation contradicts what he has been saying throughout the book. It seems like he realizes that he is intelligent, he just doesn't want to say it.
Delete"... The blonde I had been dancing with was named Bernice-- something, Crabs or Krebs. The two ugly one's names where Marty and Laverne. I told them my name was Jim Steele, just for the hell of it, then i tried to get them in to an intelligent conversion..." pp. 73
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me fore two reasons, one reason is that this connects back to what we were talking about in class, about how Holden feels about sharing his true feelings and why he comes up with these fake names. We came to the conclusion that Holden only uses fake names for people that he meets that he cares about. Like when he lied about his name when talking to Mrs. Morrow, he cared about her so he changed his name to avoid her from possible judging him, as for the stripper he called, he used his real name because he didnt are about her, he just wanted someone to talk to. This proves that Holden actually cares about these people at the bar, specifically the Blonde woman, Bernice, because he used his real name. The other reason this quote interested me is when he first sees these woman, h says their all ugly, but after he dances with Bernice, he calls only the two other woman ugly, this proves even more that he cares about Bernice, do you think there are any more things that we talked about in class that show up in this quote?
"She was really a moron. But what a dancer. I could hardly stop myself from sort of giving her a kiss on the top of her dopey head..." (71-72).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me, because I think it shows that Holden is getting even more desperate. He's desperate for company, for attention, and for any kind of human interaction. Even though he thinks the three girls at the clubs are morons, and thinks that two of them are ugly, he still approaches them for a dance. I think Holden is too scared to try to call or find the people he really cares about, such as Phoebe or Jane Gallagher. Whenever he thinks about them he makes up excuses to himself not to call them, like his parents will answer the phone and find out he was expelled, or Jane's mother will answer the phone and call his own mother. These are sort of valid excuses, but I think he's actually too scared to do it anyway. So instead of doing what he should be doing and calling Jane, he's talking to 'morons'. I think he should stop forcing himself into loneliness and depression and do something about his situation.
I couldn't agree more. The fact that he calls a stripper and dances with three girls who don't pay him much attention proves that there is a pattern of Holden's behavior. He probably is not only desperate for attention, but also a distraction from him thinking about Jane and Allie. He probably is so desperate not to think about them, that he tries to temporarily forget about them so he won't get sad from thinking about them.
DeleteI disagree with you Teo. I think he's approaching these women because they can dance well, and he's a teenage boy. When you put two and two together, especially when you implement what Lucy said yesterday (the fact that teenage boys are perverted) makes that passage gleam in a different light. I think that he is obviously lonely, but none of the examples you give really give a rock solid argument towards loneliness as a reason to approach these dancers.
DeleteI mostly agree with Lucas because yes he was desperate for attention but obviously theres a greater feeling of Holden's teenage mind taking over the situation. I disagree with Hugo's statement about trying to forget about thinking about Allie and Jane, because those situations are too big to get off his mind as we saw in previous chapters.
DeleteTomas Benincasa
ReplyDelete"I had just about broken her heart - I really had. I was sorry as hell that I kidded her. Some people you just shouldn't kid, even if they deserve it." (pp. 74)
I think that this is a significant because it shows how he feels. Firstly, I feel that it shows us that the person he pretends to be is a persona that Holden takes on to protect himself and make him feel strong and independent. I feel that this shows that he is a person who he actually is. Through the quote, i made and inference that these emotions are triggered by his memories of Jane, and how he feels he hurt the her like Jane hurt him. One quote that i think shows how he feels feels betrayed is when Holden say that "Thats what I thought about while I sat in the vomity-looking chair in the lobby. Old Jane. Every time I got to the part about he out with Stradlater in that damn Ed Banky's car, It almost drove me crazy." This quote shows that he feels that life sold him short, and just when he thought he could trust and care about Jane, she does something that hurt him.
I agree and disagree with you, I agree with you because i feel like he is showing us who he really is and i agree with "...that these emotions are triggered by his memories of Jane, and how he feels he hurt the her like Jane hurt him." I disagree because, i don't think he put on this persona to feel strong or independent i feel like he puts it on so nobody ever finds out who he really is because he doesn't want anybody to understand him or know him.
Delete"Anyway she was somebody you always felt like talking to on the phone" (pg 68)
ReplyDeleteI thought this quote was important because it showed who Holden was truly the closest to and that's his little sister Phoebe. Out of his friends his age and his parents the only one, other than Jane who he hasn't seen for a while, he thinks twice about calling is his sister. He goes on and on about how his sister is great and how "you'd love her." He seems to be saying that she's the only one who really gets him that he loves as much as he loved Allie. I think because of what happened with Allie she just means so much more to him. He means the world to her and usually from what I've seen and my experiences older siblings don't have this strong of a bond with their younger sibling. I think that she really helps him with coping with Allie's death and with that tragedy it made Holden appreciate her more.
"My mother always knows it's me. She's psychic."
ReplyDeleteI like this line because it describes my mother exactly. Every teen can relate to his/her mother being crazy, in a certain way. Everyone has that same feeling when they've missed more than 2 calls from their mother, or knows how their mom texts them too much. I often feel like my mom is psychic. She can tell how I feel from the tone of just my voice. Also, I like this line for the way he wrote it. I can totally imagine Holden saying it in a certain way, because of the use of a period, not a comma. It's very poetic, and it's another thing J.D. Salinger used to make it feel like Holden's talking to you.
I definitly agree with you here. I think that from this line you can just tell Holden is a teenager. Also how this line is so relatable too. Everyone has that same feeling that their parents always know what their doing sometimes, and Holden, even though he goes to boarding school and may not get along with his parents to well, feels this too.
DeleteI understand what you are saying, Lucas, but in a sense, we have to look deeper into the meaning of what Holden is trying to say. We have hardly heard anything whatsoever about Holden's mother so peices of text like these are very crucial into finding out about Holden's relationship with his mother is positive or negative, or if she can even tolerate Holden. Automatically, you get this friendly tone aimed towards Holden's mother, a tone that most people would aim towards someone that they were close to. Also, we can get a sense that Holden's mother knows Holden well, and has a close relationship with him. But, this contradicts with Holdens attitude towards his whole family and the impressions we get of him being depressed. If he had someone like his mother who he trusted, who he relied on, he would be able to express himself to someone who can help his issues, but it seems like Holden keeps all of his emotions bottled up. Though, this is only one line of text directed towards his mother so we cannot infer all of our conclusions based on this peice of text. Hopefully,Holden unveils a little bit more about his relationships with his parents so we can provide more evidence to the idea of Holden having a close relationship with his mother.
Delete“You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole life,” (p. 67).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because I think it shows something significant about Holden as a character. Throughout the chapter, Holden repeatedly brings up Phoebe and talks about how amazing she is, and how anyone with a sense would like her. For example, when he was dancing with the blond woman he met in the Lavender Room, he tells her how Phoebe is a better dancer than anybody dead or alive, and she’s only in the fourth grade. To me, it is clear that he misses his little sister and feels lonely, which is why he keeps bringing her up. And I think part of the reason why Holden misses her and talks so highly of her is because she represents innocence and youth, as opposed to growing up and adulthood, which I think Holden associates with phoniness. I think that one conflict that Holden faces is not wanting to grow up to be an adult, and wanting to remain a kid. He says himself, “…I’m seventeen now, and sometimes I act like I’m about thirteen,” (p. 9). To me this shows how Holden wishes he could still be thirteen and not have to grow up. I think that he doesn’t want to become an adult and enter a world that he views as phony and filled with much more complication and pain. He idolizes Phoebe – just like he idolized Allie – because she symbolizes the innocent world of childhood that he wishes to remain in.
I actually agree with you to some extent but I don't actually feel that Holden doesn't want to grow up but that when he grows up he won't know where to go. When you're an adult its time for you to leave the nest or leave home, but Holden doesn't know himself so he doesn't exactly know where to go yet. I also think that Holden needs to be able to actually let the fact that Allie died sink in and release it in some way, but not actually forget him just carry on his memory. This will eventually lead to him finding himself and getting over his loneliness.
Delete“I asked her… Mr.Cudahy… tried to get wise with her…Some girls you practically never find out what’s the matter” (79).
ReplyDeleteThis line shows that Holden isn’t as closed off and emotionless as he makes himself seem. This line shows that Holden actually cares about someone rather than Allie, who died, and Phoebe. Also it shows that Holden is actually a little protective over Jane and cares for her more than he says. For example, when he asked her if her stepfather tried to sexually harass her (79). Also his caring side comes out when he cuddles her when she cries (79). I also think that Holden doesn’t actually come out and say it but that he likes her in (77) he describes what he likes about her and he her showed her Allie’s baseball mitt. This means literally that he showed her he mitt and figuratively that he showed her something that meant a lot to him. That he was letting her into his heart in a sense because that mitt was Allie’s and Allie meant a lot to him and for him to show her meant that he was able to trust her and he felt that he could let her into his heart. In general, I think that this says that people don’t tell each and everybody personal things or show personal pictures unless they feel that they can trust them not to tell anybody or that they are close enough to know that certain secret about them.
I agree with this idea. I think that we are seeing a side of Holden that is more caring and we can see how much Jane means to him, even though he never actually fully expresses the way he feels about her. I think he sort of hides his full feelings about her from us because he misses her so much and it’s painful to think about. On page 80 he tells us, “Old Jane. Every time I got to the part about her out with Stradlater in that damn Ed Banky’s car, it almost drove me crazy… I don’t even like to talk about it, if you want to know the truth.” I think that Jane is really important to him, but he it’s hard for him to get his feelings out because of the jealousy he feels about her date with Stradlater and the pain he feels from missing her.
Delete"I still couldn't get her off my brain. I knew her like a book" (76) This line stood out to me because he does not know many people outside his family that well, this shows me how he just wants to meet a nice person with a good personality. I think the reason his does not make that many friends is because he thinks they are not "real" people, like Jane.
ReplyDelete"You'd like her....She's all right. You'd like her. The only trouble is that she's a little affectionate at sometimes" Page 67-68
ReplyDeleteThis quote was interesting because Holden describes His sister for page and a half with many compliments and then says that Phoebe is to emotional. It is a little confusing because he spends so much time complimenting her but then directly moves on to her flaw. Another thing that is interesting when Holden points out to the reader that Phoebe is to emotional is why he chose that. What I mean by this is that Phoebe is only a kid and kids are emotional because that is just the way they are. When I read this I thought that Holden was trying in a way to treat his sister very maturely because of her intelligence but forgot that she is still a kid. One other thing that I realized while reading this is the repetition used by Holden. He starts the sentence with "You'd like her" and then ends the sentence with "You'd like her". This is a reoccurring tendency that is used by Holden. For example When he is describing how he does not act his age earlier in the book, he continuously uses the phrase, "I really do". I think this is a tactic of emphasizing the comment and to put it into the reader's mind.
I agree. When you say Holden treats his 10 year old sister really maturely ; however, i kind of understand why Holden might spend so much time on complementing her then directly move to her flaws. This may be because Holden wants to portray his sister as a great person and a fabulous girl and then he would kind of put out that side note that she too affectionate to sort of not let people see the bad side of her but only the good side to equal the positive and the negative things about her.
DeleteI agree with the use of constant repetition while reading the novel. I think this might refer to a specific person he might have designated to read this. Holden probably uses the repetition to highlight some points that really might interest or refer to the designated reader, to whoever it may be.
DeleteHe’s so good he’s almost corny, in fact.
ReplyDelete(Page 80)
I found this quote interesting because it lead me to believe that even though Holden uses the word corny all the time, I don’t think he actually knows what it means. Holden continuously says people and things are corny, and how he hates corny things. Although he is also doing some of these things he is calling corny. I just think that Holden is confused as to what this word means. Holden just uses this word has sort of an insult but also just sort of a way he describes everything.
I disagree with you I think that he does know what that word means but I also think he is a hypocrite. Like you said he goes around telling people that they are corny but then himself also does the same thing. Like on P.62 where he said that you should love a girl for there face not they body but later he goes and called a call girl. He goes around telling people how they should "be" but then goes and does the same thing. But yes I do think he uses the word to describe things.
DeleteI agree and disagree with you here. I agree because Holden always seems to be using the word WAY to often, and sometimes he is even being a hypocrite because he uses the words on things he does.
DeleteBut I do disagree with you when you said he uses it to describe everything. He mostly describes it on stuff he doesn't like or seem fake, not just everything.
"All of a sudden, on my way out to the lobby, i got old Jane Gallagher on the brain again. I got her on, and i couldnt get her off." (pg 76)
ReplyDeleteThis line is very significant when it comes to the 11th chapter of the book. It starts a chapter that goes into great depth about Holden's relationship with Jane, a friend from the past, who,Holden has mixed feelings about. I believe this line stands out to me in the sense that it does represent a relationship between our very secluded, and emotionally exhausted anti hero, to the girl next door and one of the very best friends of Holden. Throughout the chapter, Holden expresses a jealousy towards the relationship towards Stradlater and Jane, and many people infer that the jealousy is aimed more towards Jane because Holden has some underlying feelings towards Jane. I believe this to be completely false. First and foremost, Throughout the novel, Holden has a sort of friendly, and comfortable voice towards not only Jane, but to all girls in general. The way Holden speaks and thinks and describes his actions kind of reflect that the idea that he is not "into" Jane as the normal reader can expect. Yes, i do admit there is evidence to the idea that Holden is interested in Jane, but there is also very much (even more) evidence to the fact that Holden has some very intimate feelings towards the other member of the relationship, Stradlater. We can conclude that Holden is, in someway, suppressing some sort of homosexual tendencies and emotions, supported by this quote "..... I knew guys that were way more handsomer than Stradlater..." which proves that Holden admits to thinking about which guys that attend his school are more attrractive than others. Adding on, we can, in some sense, infer that not only is he jealous about Jane being in this relationship with Stradlater, but vice versa. Furthermore, having Holden as the narrator has its disadvantages, because he is the one who is describing the emotions he wants to share with the reader, and is, even as the narrator, is oppressing the emotions he has for Stradlater, and therefore, is only telling the reader he is thinking solemnly about Jane, when in fact he is thinking about his intimate feelings towards SAtradlater. Therefore, this quote stands out to me in the sense that it answers the questions and supports it in a sense that Holden has feelings towards Jane and Stradlater and, therefore, is Jealous of bvoth people he "likes" being in a relationship with each other. But, i have heard many of your opinions on the subject and want to hear your impressions now, what'da you guys think?
"Also, there were very few people around my age in the place. In fact, nobody was around my age." (P.69) This line made me think and ask, is he lying about other people around him then corrects him self because he does something like think on p.62 where he stops him self from telling more lies. But then on the other hand he could have just said "In fact, nobody was around my age." After he had realized who is around him. That no one there was his or around his age. I did not really get this quote and needed to think about it.
ReplyDelete"The way I met her, this Doberman pinscher she had use to come over and relieve herself on our lawn, an my mother got very irritated about it. She called up Jane's mother and made a big stink about it." (76)
ReplyDeleteAfter looking over this quote for a couple of times, I begun to realize how Holden's relationship with Jane is so darn realistic, it's pretty scary. It's not a relationship that contains kisses, hugs, and cuddles, nor a relationship that is a hate/love relationship. It's more of in between, where they became friends first and then Holden starts to quickly fall for her. I mean, yes, he does think she's somewhat attractive in the beginning, but that really wasn't how they met. In the quote, it states that he met her through a couple of incidents where her dog peed all over his lawn. I mean, what an odd way to meet, right? But the amount of activities they do together after striking up a conversation one day completely changes them from strangers to best friends that play chess with each other a whole lot. This is something I find truly fascinating. Also, Holden likes to notice the little things that she does. He actually does this a lot with different people. He even does it with Phoebe, like how he notices how she gave a little shove to Allie and him as a way to make them know she's there and that she has a question (68). He notices how Jane's mouth moved all over the place when she got excited (77). That's not something you would automatically see. I think it takes close observing to notice how Jane does it multiple times and not just once.
"As a matter of fact, I'm the only dumb one in the family. My brother D.B.'s a writer and all, and my brother Allie, the one that died, that I told you about, was a wizard. I'm the only really dumb one" (pg.67)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me in the first few minutes I was reading. Holden always seems to be putting himself down. He definitely is dealing with some family issues that makes him feel like hes not good enough. Since all three of his siblings were considered "amazing" people to him, I think he thinks that hell never be as good, therefore he wont try. (Even though, he is actually, very smart)
Im questioning why Holden repeats himself in this quote. He starts off saying "As a matter of fact..." and then also to end the sentences, he adds again how he is the only "dumb one in the family."
I also think the reason Holden has no close friends to him is because he has such high expectations for people. Since the only people he talks goodly about is his siblings, I think as Holden tries to search for people who have similar traits to them.
I think this one quote really does show how other siblings can effect the way one of the siblings think. I know having my sister, especially when I was little, I was very competitive. I don't necessarily think Holden's being competitive, but it does have something to do with being the better sibling at something. And since he's not good at showing his emotions, Holden wont show the fact that he does actually care about being smart or not.
I totally agree with you Kalyn! Maybe the reason he acts the way he is, with the lies and pushing away is because of the way people treat him, and I guess he wants people to see that they "throw him in the dirt" and he is so blinded by the people that think of him that way, that he doesn't see the people that actually care about him, so he pushes them away too, maybe because they are fake, or what he prefers, phonies. He wants to show how good he is, as good as Phoebe and Allie, but I don't think its for competition though, I think it is to get noticed, because some people treat him as a child, and some treat him as if he were an adult (what mod teenagers experience). And, I like how you connected it to your life in a way to understand the quote better!
Delete"I almost was once in a movie short, but I changed my mind at the last minute. I figured that anybody that hates the movies as much as i do, I'd be a phony if I let them stick me in a movie short" (pp 77)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because even though Holden perceives himself as not a phony, he obviously has 'phony' impulses, and the only thing stopping him from being a phony is his own hate for phonies. I don't necessarily understand how he can say he hates phonies when he is one at heart. Maybe the people that he likes best are the least phony, like Allie and Jane, and so he tries to be the least phony, and build a wall against phonies. It is also possible that some time in the past people who are phonies have hurt him, and so he tries to avoid phonies. One more possible answer is that his parents are very phony and he doesn't want to be anything like his parents, which is something that a lot of people his age don't want. Whatever it is that is at the root of his opposition to phonies, it is very engrained in his mind, even if phony things are in his nature.
"I was kissing her all over-anywhere-her eyes, her nose, her forehead, her eyebrows and all, her ears- her whole face except her mouth and all. She sort of wouldn't let me get to her mouth" (78)
ReplyDeleteAfter looking over this quote i began to come to the conclusion that although Holden may have feelings for Jane but she doesn't really let him kiss her on the lips because she doesn't really like him back; however, i found this very hard to believe and quite surprising since afterwards Holden talks about how he had held hands with Jane in the theater throughout the whole movie. But now that i have thought it over i came down to another separate conclusion. Is Jane also very similar to Holden? Has Jane also lost somebody that she has loved so much like in the case of Holden, Allie. Does she chooses to close herself off from being emotionally attached with people she actually love from the fear of losing that person as well? I also thought this doesn't have to be a death of someone, but losing someone emotionally. For example a person she may have lost emotionally may be her father who Holden describes as a "Booze Hound" He may have been a nice, wonderful father that Jane had loved so much but now is a alcoholic who asks his own daughter for where the cigarettes are.
"I think it's because sometimes when he plays, he sounds like the kind of guy that won't talk to you unless you're a big shot. (pg.80)"
ReplyDeleteI found this line interesting because it reminded me of the class discussion we had about Holden and how his self esteem effects the choices he makes relating to who he decides to be around. Holden only really hangs out with people he truly likes to be with or at least he used to, before he "learned from his mistakes", and lost his brother, and from there it was just people he doesn't care for and could "afford" to lose. This might explain why he was hanging out with the three morons in the lavender room. He would constantly be critical of them and be annoyed but he would still stay because he just in desperate need for company. This is also why I think he didn't want to say hey to Jane when he heard Stradlater was gonna hang out with her. He didn't want to reconnect with her, and he is still trying to get her out of his head. He might feel once you have someone important, you run too high a risk of losing them.
“All of a sudden, on my way out to the lobby, I got old Jane Gallagher on the brain again. I got her on, and I couldn’t get her off.” (76). I chose this line (and this chapter) because it really showed how much Holden cared about Jane. This is good reason why Holden got so mad at Stradlater on page 43. I found that Holden’s feelings about Jane could relate to many other parts of the book. An example is when Holden asks the three girls to dance on page 70. He probably wants to dance because he wants to distract himself from thinking about Jane. We know this is most likely true because he thinks about Jane right after the girls leave. Another way Holden tries to distract himself from Jane is by trying to order alcohol from the waiter in the lobby. When the waiter refuses, he says: “Okay, okay, bring me a Coke. Can’tcha stick a little rum in it or something?” (69). This shows that Holden cares about Jane so much that he has to distract himself from being sad thinking about her.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Hugo. I also think that he was trying to distract himself from Jane Gallagher because I think he has feelings for her like when Stradlater said he gave Jane the time and Holden got mad because he probably likes Jane. Another one is when he's at the bar, Holden tries to talk to other people just so he can forget about Jane and thats how much he thinks about her thats how much I think he likes her.
Delete"You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole life.She's really smart. I mean she's had A's ever since she started school." (Pg.67)
ReplyDeleteI think this quote is important because the character I feel like Holden illustrates Phoebe as a really smart girl who is sort of like a mirror image of Allie in a way. I think that because in part of the quote I chose, Holden says "I mean she's had A's ever since she started school." On page 38 Holden says "He was terrifically intelligent." He say that they where both really smart kid and in other parts of the book he also state that they were nice kids and didn't mind being bothered. I feel like the characters are like similar or mirror images of each other in a way.
"You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your entire life." (67)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it shows how much Holden looks up his family. Earlier in the book, Holden talks about how great Allie was, and how he even injured himself by punching out all the windows because Allie died. Also, I wonder why Holden is just telling us about his sister, who he claims is so great, this late into the book. I believe that something happened within Holden's family when he was a child, which makes his family seem so good to him, but makes him feel terrible about himself. I believe this event will be revealed later in the book
"My brother D.B's a writer and all, and my brother Allie, the one that I told you about, was a wizard. I'm the only really dumb one."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it shows how much Holden cares about his siblings. That he keeps on saying they are so great in school and how they get always get A's and how much their teacher liked them and care about them. It also shows that how much Holden doubts himself and keep on saying that he's the dumb one in his family and how his siblings are better than him.
"The only trouble is, she's a little too affectionate sometimes. She's very emotional, for a child. She really is." (p. 68)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me, because before he said this, he was saying so much positive things about his sister Phoebe, like how he admires her and how much of a great person she is, just like with Allie with talking about all their great times together, and then he has to say something a little bit on the negative side (about her being emotional). It reminded me of what we spoke about in class, when we were saying he says negative things about other people (criticizing) to push them away, because he believes whats the point in becoming close with someone when they are just going to end up leaving you. I feel that he "pushes" Phoebe away from him (by saying negative things about her) because he feels if he doesn't push her away, he's going to want to call her. Then, the parents would pick up the phone and know he was kicked out of school, and in New York. Why does he push her away when he's lonely, and he needs someone to replace Allie, and to be with someone he cares about? Why doesn't he want to see his parents? Because they would get upset at him? Because they are phonies? With all the pushing away and the hot lies, Holden is a confused teenager, not knowing what he really wants.