1) Again, this blog post is up to you where you want to go with your response, but please make sure that your writing has depth to it. What meaning does this passage reveal? A 3-sentence blog post is not sufficient! Also, this is a long reading for the three-day weekend. Please make sure that your passage is significant and reflects some BIG ideas that struck you as you read this weekend.
2) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post! Answer their questions, or pose a question of your own!
Try some of these sentence starters:
"I wonder why..."
"I'm surprised that..."
"I don't understand..."
"I was struck by..."
"It's interesting that..."
"I'm bothered that..."
"The central issue here seems to be..."
"If I were a character inside this text..."
"anyway I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in a big field of rye and all. Thousands of kids, and nobody's around, nobody big, i mean-- except me. And I'm standing on the edge of this crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have ti catch everybody if they start to go off the cliff-- I mean if they're running and they aren't looking where they are going I have to come out from somewhere and save catch them. That's all I'd do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all, I know its crazy but that's all I want to do, I know its crazy." (pg 173)
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, sorry for taking the quote where Holden actually says "the Catcher in the Rye" but the early bird gets the worm! Lets try and see what this means piece by piece, in the quote we see the reoccurring theme that Holden likes kids, this point is obviously important if kids are involved in the name of the book. I think there are two meanings that you can inperate from this quote and they both realate to each other. When Holden says "Nobody's around-- nobody big I mean, accept me..." What I think this means is that Holden doesn't really consider himself to be "big" or grown up, he considers himself, or wants to be one of those kids running around playing games in the fields of rye. But I think the quote is a metaphor for how Holden doesn't want to grow up, and he wants to save others from growing up, I think that people falling of the cliff is people growing up, because as they are playing in the fields of rye and being children and having fun, if they don't look where they are going then they will fall of the side, and they won't be able to play in the fields of rye anymore, they won't be able to be kids, Holden wants to catch them when they fall, so they never have to grow up like he did. What do all of you think? I think that this quote can be interpenetrated in many different ways and I want to hear some others.
I have to totally agree with you, Josef. You brought up a very important point when you said that once you fall down the cliff, theres no way you're coming back up. Its like once you lose your innocence, you can never get it back. Its like the naiveness and curiousity you had as a kid can never return, and I think that, holden is somehow being pushed off this cliff. Eventually, he will to fall off this cliff like everybody else, but puts up a fight when it comes to resenting another part of himself, another point to realize.... that he is growing up. Thats why i believe Holden seems to be such a hypocritical, judgmental person, because admitting to himself all these things about him, would be admitting defeat, and basically taking the leap into the ravine we all know as adulthood. So, have you gone down the cliff? I know i haven't............
Delete"You don't like anything that's happening." (169)
ReplyDeleteIn this line, Phoebe is telling Holden that he doesn't like anything. Holden later becomes defensive and claims that he in fact does like many things. Phoebe then asks him what is one thing that he likes a lot. Holden hesitates for a bit and responds by telling her that he likes Allie and talking to her. This may be true, but it stills shows us how depressed Holden is. Phoebe proves a valid point here and that is that Holden may be having trouble finding something that he is deeply passionate about. I am not absolutely sure about this but it is just an idea that I have come up with after reading these chapters.
I agree with you Abby. I also think this conversation highlights how lonesome Holden is. I also think it's important how Phoebe realizes Holden isn't as you said, deeply passionate about anything. She wants Holden to find something he likes and stick with it or "daddy will kill him." This conversation shows how smart Phoebe really is and how much she cares about Holden.
DeleteI sort of agree with you, but I also disagree in way. Obviously Holden likes very little: he's said that many times, and he's also said he hates a lot of things. I feel like there could've been other take-aways from this passage. Maybe how Phoebe and Holden talk to each other is one thing, and how people are starting to notice how depressed he is. I think since the beginning of the book it's been known he's depressed and hates a lot of things.
DeleteI agree with what you're saying Abby, but I also really agree with Lucas's comment. I think that this shows how people are starting to notice how depressed holden really is but I also think it is just proving the point further that he doesn't like much/doesn't put an effort in liking much.
DeleteI agree with you abby Holden was being really defensive, he told Phoebe the things he truly loves to do, but he doesn't really like that much with is pretty sad and is depressing, Holden is pretty depressed because he doesn't really love anything besides those two things.
Delete"anyway I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in a big field of rye and all. Thousands of kids, and nobody's around, nobody big, i mean-- except me. And I'm standing on the edge of this crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have ti catch everybody if they start to go off the cliff-- I mean if they're running and they aren't looking where they are going I have to come out from somewhere and save catch them. That's all I'd do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all, I know its crazy but that's all I want to do, I know its crazy." (pg 173)
ReplyDeleteWe have to look into complete depth about this paragraph, mostly because it addresses the title of the novel, the whole meaning of this book and was chosen solemnly by the author as a summary of what the whole book is supposed to represent. In a sense, the Titile represents a triple metaphor. The first metaphor refers to Allie's catcher mitt, which has the poems that Allie would use to write on and Holden being the "Catcher" in a sense, needs a catchers mitt.Also, this idea completely fits in with this metaphor because, throughout the story, nothing about Allie being a catcher in baseball or anything proves to provide anything to the story except for that specific metaphor. The second metaphor is the one that directly relates to the poem "Catcher In The Rye". In the story,Holden had heard this song when he was just a young boy, when his mother would try to comfort him. Holden mistakes the lines of the poem "If a body catch a body in the rye" for "If a body meet a body for a catcher in the rye." which lead us right to the third metaphor. Holden takes this poem and imagines it in a sense that he is this catcher in the rye, and there are these children playing in the rye, and the longer they play the longer they drain the innocence, the farther they get through the rye. Holden is standing on this cliff, that signals the end of this rye field, which in a sense signifies "childhood". Holden is on the edge of the cliff, and as these kids are playing, they don't seem to look where they're going. Holden is this catcher in the rye ,in a sense, catching as much kids as he can from not falling off this cliff like all the others. This cliff, i think represents the phonyness of the world, or adulthood in a sense, and since Holden likes the "Pureness and Innocence" of the world he tries to keep these kids in the rye and not falling over this cliff where adulthood and responsibilities await. I'd like to focus on the idea of Protagonist Antagonist, and Anti hero when it comes to the third metaphor and how this relates to the book in itself. In light of new evidence, i have realized that, through Holdens eyes, and probably through some readers eyes, Holden really is a protagonist. I mean he pictures himself as an individual who saves these kids in a sense and protects their innocence and, has also himself, tried so desperately to stay in this rye field. Thus. kind of making him the protagonist in a sense. Though we can argue this all day and all night, i also want to get into the topic of why the author chose this specific poem to write about. we can connect the ideas of JD actually being sung this song when he was a kid and interpreting it into this type of form, or that maybe the poem just seemed to connect or even influence the whole plot of the book. All we know for sure is that the poem/metaphor has meaning and definitely roots back to JD Salingers experiences throughout his life. For it to be the title of the book says a lot. But, tell me what your guy's thoughts on the metaphoric interpretation of the "Catcher In The Rye" meaning is?
I strongly agree with the third meaning you think this passage represents. I also feel like what he is saying is that the field represents childhood and the kids are playing there all innocently. Since the rye in the field is very tall and all, the kids play, almost blind-sighted by that and can't really see the cliff. And when they are playing, if they get to the cliff, they might not even notice it and fall and feel lost, not knowing that this was coming, just like Holden. So he would like to be the one that stops the kids from falling off.
Delete"And this boy I knew at Elkton Hills. There was this one boy at Elkton Hills, named James Castle... All they did with the guys that were in the room with him was expel them. They didn't even go to jail." (170)
ReplyDeleteI was immediately struck by this quote. In this scene Phoebe has asked Holden what he likes because she believes he likes nothing and Holden think of James Castle, a guy he barley knew. I think he though of him because he's a sort of role model to Holden. James died for what he believed in, he wasn't phony, he said how he felt about Phil Stabile and he didn't lie and take back what he said about Phil. if James had lived and been friends with Holden I think Holden would have looked up to him. He is in my opinion Holden's definition of genuine and that's why Holden thinks of him when Phoebe asks who or what he likes.
I agree with you, but why does this one man stick out to Holden? A lot of people die fighting for what they believe in… why would this one person be of so much significance? My personal opinion is he’s trying to use a minority who’s death wasn’t as acknowledged as others to gain sympathy since he’s talking to Phoebe and he’s trying to play it off as another small person in a huge universe.
Delete"...I’m standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff—I mean if they’re running and they don’t look where they’re going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That’s all I’d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all." (pg. 173)
ReplyDeleteThis is specifically important to me because it’s the obvious source of the title for the book, and the whole source of Holden’s feelings. We thought it was about the boy whose parents weren’t paying attention to him since Holden could relate, but I believe it’s this instead, since he’s talking to Phoebe, and he’s actually being open about how he views his life. His response also makes sense, given what we already know about Holden: he prefers to retreat into his own imaginary view of the world rather than deal with the complexities of the world around him. He has a cynical, oversimplified view of other people, and a large part of his fantasy world is based on the idea that children are simple and innocent while adults are superficial and hypocritical. He, himself, realizes this is crazy, but he can’t see the world that differently. His “catcher in the rye” fantasy reflects his innocence, his belief in pure, uncorrupted youth, and his desire to protect that spirit; on the other hand, it represents his extreme disconnection from reality and his naïve view of the world.
I strongly agree with your response to this quote. Holden is definitively trying to illustrate an important idea within this quote. Like you mentioned, since he is talking to Phoebe, he is very open about what he is trying to say. I think that being a catcher in the rye is also a way for Holden to never grow up. In other words to keep in touch with his childish side. I also think that by protecting the innocence of children he is protecting and conserving his innocence as well.
Delete"Oh I don't know. That digression business got on my nerves. I don't know. The trouble with me is, I like it when someone disgresses. It's more interesting and all." (183).
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because Holden seems confused in this sentence because he contradicts himself. He mentions earlier in the paragraph that he got an F in Oral Expression because he couldn't stand the fact that everybody yelled Digression when they disagreed with something that a student would say. However he does mention that he likes it in this line. I think the main reason for this is because Holden secretly likes the class more than he wants to admit. I also think that he is denying his true ability and feelings about this class because he is already flunking most of his other classes. He also judges his true academic ability based on the bad grades he received before. Holden is actually a very smart kid and he could do much better in school if he ignored his grades from before and actually put an effort into class.
I agree with you, and think that Holden thinks he isn't smart because of the terrible grades that he gets. When he keeps getting bad marks for all his classes, I think he thinks that he must be bad at those classes, so he might as well not try. For example in his Oral Expression class he says didn't cut it but he just didn't want to go in. I think Holden didn't want to go to the class because he was so put off by the bad grades he got, and that discourages him from that class and education in general.
Delete"'You don't like any schools. You don't like a million things. You don't.' 'I do! That's where you're wrong - that's exactly where you're wrong! Why the hell do you have to say that?' I said. Boy, was she depressing me," (169).
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows just how insecure Holden is about himself. When his sister mentions that he is so pessimistic, he gets really defensive and denies that it's true, which it is. I think that Holden is afraid of confronting himself, and telling himself that he needs to get over his fears and start to grow up. And that's part of how he likes kids so much, because he wishes that he could stay the same as them, and not have to grow up and become a "phony" adult. He also puts up his wall of lies whenever someone tries to ask about his personal life or things like that, and he does that so he doesn't have to think himself and his life. So when Phoebe sort of confronts his life for him, and points out how he never is happy with anything, he immediately denies it and defends himself, because he doesn't want to think about that.
I strongly agree with you, Teo. In my opinion, it is true that Holden is very defensive and denies that he doesn't like many things. It shows us that he doesn't want to express his true feelings and tell Phoebe the truth. He masks his true emotions with this wall of carelessness. He doesn't want to grow up and become an adult. He wants things to stay the same and not change like the exhibits in the museum. As we discussed in class, he doesn't want things to change because he still wants to be a kid and a genuine person.
Delete"I know he's dead! Don't you think I know that? I can still like him, though, can't I? Just because somebody's dead, you just don't stop liking them, for God's sake---especially if they were about a thousand times nicer than the people you know that're alive and all." (171)
ReplyDeleteIn this quote, we can see that Holden really misses Allie. Allie is Holden's favorite person in the world besides Phoebe and sometimes Holden needs him around so that he can talk to him in his time of need. In the previous chapters, it shows us that Holden talks to Allie whenever he's depressed and lonely. Even though Allie is dead and "in the ground", it still comforts Holden to talk to him about his feelings. We all know that Holden doesn't like MANY things, but in this quote, it shows us that he doesn't care whether Allie's alive or not, he just needs his memory to comfort him and get him through life. This is also the first time he actually shows true emotion on Allie's death and how he feels like Allie is "about a thousand times nicer than the people you know that're alive and all." In my opinion, as long as Allie is in Holden's mind, he can overcome anything.
I strongly agree with what you have written here, Varshini. Allie used to be an incredibly large part of Holden's life and he still is. I think that Holden sometimes yearns for his presence. He needs his little brother and he still loves him dearly. This quote also shows us how very sensitive Holden is.
DeleteI agree with both Varshini and Abby. I feel that Holden has a lot of bottled up feelings for Allie, and he feels that he could have saved him in a way. I feel that Holden also misses Allies companionship and friendship. I think that when Holden was golfing, and he turned around to see Allie watching him, I think he felt belonging and he felt that he had a person that truly cared about him. I think that Hoden misses that
DeleteTomas Benincasa
"I have a feeling that you're riding for some kind of terrible, terrible fall." (p.186)
ReplyDeleteAs I read this passage, when Mr. Antolini tries to explain to Holden that he shouldn't keep doing what he's doing, I felt like it was a truly important passage. Little by little, since the start of the book, Holden has been learning (without even knowing it) exactly what Mr. Antolini is telling him. I mean, ever since the start of the book, he has been kicked out of school. He has felt so lonely, sometimes even a bit suicidal. The few people he has been able to meet up with were people he saw as slightly egocentric, fake intellectuals who couldn't understand him. He has felt lost and no one has been able to give him directions. Phoebe, his sister who he loves basically made him accept that there is practically nothing he loves. In other words, he has been going downhill. Mr. Antolini, afterwards tell him that this happens to people who were searching for something but they "thought their own environment couldn't supply them with [what they were searching for]" (p.187) I feel like Holden is simply searching for balance and something to live for. He has slowly been 'falling' and he's trying to find a way to stop going downhill. Holden subconsciously sees this happening and Mr. Antolini is making him face this truth.
I agree with you Alex and how Holden is falling into the addiction of not something physical, but the addiction of the belief that nothing makes him happy. I agree with you when you said that Phoebe made him realize that and I find it how ironic when she asked what makes him happy, he was thinking about James Castle, who had fell to his death. But that death kind of relates to Holden's "terrible, terrible fall". James fell to his death physically, while Holden is pretty much falling to his death mentally with all the smoking, depression, stress, and drinking he's been doing. Great point, Alex!
Delete"I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all,'
ReplyDelete-Pg. 255
I think that this passage is important because it name drops the title of the book, and really shows into what Holden wants in life. Holden is sitting and talking to Phoebe and he basically says that he'd like to be in a field all day, watching over kids playing, and saving them if they were to come to harm (by falling off of a nearby cliff). Holden has stated before that he likes kids more than adults, but I never thought he wanted to be their protector, watching over them all of the time. I think this also relates to him talking to his teacher, Mr. Antolini, when mr. Antolini tells Holden he's in store for a big fall. Holden's expectations and desires are unrealistic, and he's going to have a huge wake up call soon. Life can't be exactly how he wants it. He doesn't realize that yet either. My proof that he hasn't realized that because yet is when asks Sally if she wants to run away with him, to Vermont. He thinks the life he wants is possible, he can watch the kids play in the rye forever and save them, but kids grow up, and-- in Holden's eyes-- become phony. Nothing ever stays the same, and Holden's biggest longing is for nothing to change.
I really agree with you, Lucas. I think that Holden desires a life that doesn't change because he is scared of the future and he just doesn't know that this dream is unrealistic. I think that Holden needs some kind of wakeup call for him to realize this.
DeleteTomas Benincasa
ReplyDelete"I’m standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff—I mean if they’re running and they don’t look where they’re going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That’s all I’d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all."
pp. 173
I think that this quote is significant for many reasons. Firstly, it shows that he wants to protect innocence and childhood, and that the cliff is a symbol for adulthood, which he believes is the end of innocence. I feel that he also wishes that Holden had someone like that to protect him from adulthood. I think that this quote also shows us that he knows exactly what he wants to do with himself. Through out his time and experiences in manhattan, he seems lost. He begins to question life as well as himself. In this quote, he responds to Phoebe's question of what Holden wants do with himself. I feel that this also shows Holden's feelings for Allie. I think that when Holden was talking to the reader about how he felt bad about excluding Allie from the bb gun fight, i think that he was condensing his emotion about Allie into one moment. I feel that this quote shows how he felt that he let Allie die.
I also agree with the cliff being a metaphor for the leap from childhood to adulthood. This job might depress Holden a bit because he is the only "big" person around, but I think it will overshadow because he gets to help other children in a way, not have to face the terror of adulthood. Holden tells this directly to Phoebe because he sees how she is still a kid and will soon have to face adulthood, but he will be there to help her get through it.
Delete"I keep picturing all this little kids playing some game in this big field of a rye and all. Thousands of little kids, nobody's around- nobody big, I mean- except me... I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff- I mean they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them...I'd just be the catcher on the rye and all."(pg.173)
ReplyDeleteI think Holden wants to be the one to "catch" all these children because he doesn't want them to die and he wants to be able to catch someone because nobody ever caught him. I also think the fact that he is the only bigger kid there is significant because i think it means he wants to fit in and be a kid with them but since he's older/bigger he has to be the one to catch them. Maybe, going over the cliff is symbolism for growing up and he's catching them as in saving them from growing up and trying to make them stay innocent. "...I mean they're running and they don't look where they're going..." maybe means that they are going to fast into growing up and they don't even know what it means to grow up and not be a kid anymore.
I think this is completely well said. I think that he wants to save everybody else's childhood because he is always complaining about how his was really bad. I also think that's why he like to coddle Phoebe because he wants to make sure she has an amazing childhood. A kind of childhood he and Allie didn't have.
DeleteI really like the point that you make about the fact that Holden may want to catch these kids because no one was there to catch him. Maybe he wants to preserve their innocence, because we know he admires that quality. Maybe he considers himself to already have fallen off of the cliff. I say this because we know he has none of the qualities he admires in people, so maybe he is trying to protect these kids from turning into him. Maybe you are right and to him that cliff is growing up, and he doesn't want these kids to be corrupted by growing up.
Delete"I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff-" (pp. 173)
ReplyDeleteIt seems like he want to save all of these kids from a symbolic abyss rather than a literal cliff. It may be that he wants to protect their innocence because he reveres that quality, as we talked about in class, and maybe he wants to save these kids from turning out like him, because every quality he likes in others, Holden is missing. Holden says he wants to prevent these kids from falling over the cliff. It seems odd to me that he says this just a couple pages before Mr.Antolini warns Holden that he is heading for a "terrible, terrible fall" (186), and he tells Holden that he is going to keep on falling and falling. in this part, Holden refuses to more than half listen because he claims he is too tired, even though we know Holden has no problem staying awake, so it seems that Mr.Antolini is trying to be the catcher in the rye for Holden, but Holden is evading this fact because deep inside Holden has been reserving this heroic position for himself, and he believes that he is the only 'big kid' who knows more than everyone else and can be the catcher. The fact that Holden himself is falling in the rye comes as a great shock to Holden, and he chooses to ignore and deny that. Maybe this comes along with his superiority complex towards phonies, and he cannot admit to himself that he is not above everyone else, and in need of catching just like all of the other playing children.
“I have a feeling that you’re riding for some kind of terrible, terrible fall. . . . The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn’t supply them with. . . . So they gave up looking.” (186-187)
ReplyDeleteIn this quotation there are a few things that I found to be interesting. I think that this quote relates to what Holden was talking about to Phoebe. Holden was expressing to Phoebe how he wishes he could help kids in a rye field from falling off the edge of a cliff. Here Mr. Antolini is stating that Holden is in the midst of a big fall and he is trying to protect him. Also I believe that Holden and Mr. Antolini have very different views of what happens when you fall off this "cliff". Holden is saying that the kids are falling into a world of adulthood and this resonates with Holden's life because he does not want to go into the world of adulthood. However I think that Mr. Antolini is saying that falling off this cliff is like giving up and disconnecting from the world before even trying. I agree with this because after Holden left Pencey, he gave up and just started wandering with no real concern. I think that in a way, when Holden was speaking to Phoebe he was describing himself as the protector, but in fact Mr. Antolini is describing him as having to be protected because he is in such a bad place right now, and he does not want Holden to throw away his future.
"I wished to god old Mrs. Antolini would come in with the coffee. That's something that annoys the hell out of me- I mean if somebody says the coffees all ready and it isn't." (184)
ReplyDeleteI think this line was important because it showed us how hostile Holden could be. On the page before, he was saying how wonderful and nice Mrs. Antolini is, and then he gets really worked up about how the coffee was coming in late. I think that this shows that he gets tired of people very quickly, and loses his love for people he loves in his mind. This quote also ties up to Holden despising phonies. I think that throughout this book he has been saying al of these things that he hates people doing, and most of them tie up to him hating people faking something, or doing something that isn't true. This quote could also be saying that he doesn't like when people fake him, and tell him something that isn't true. I think this makes him feel like he is put down by the other person, because they tricked him. All in all I think that Holden's dislikes all overlap "phonies" and people who aren't trust worthy.
I definitely agree with you here Celia, I think that Holden can change his opinion of someone very quickly. Anything someone does, even if it is the smallest thing, can affect how Holden feels about them in a good way or in a bad way. I think that this sort of shows which people he truly loves or not. I think this because whenever Phoebe does something he doesn't like, he just makes excuses for her to makes it seem like almost a good thing, this truly shows how much he cares for Phoebe.
DeleteI agree with you guys Grace and Celia that Holden definitely switches up on people very quickly and he talks about how he doesn't hate people for a long period of time. I think that Holden is like this because he judges people based on their appearance, then when he meets them he judges them by the first couple words that come out of their mouth, then depending on how he feels about them he will make up his mind about whether he likes them or not, and he only changes his mind when they do or say something that interests him in someway and then and only then will he change his opinion about them. I don't think this is a great way to get to know people and be social, but the way Holden is this is all he knows.
Delete“Among other things, you’ll find that you’re not the first person who was ever confused or frightened and even sickened by human behavior” (Page 189)
ReplyDeleteI think that this it is very important that Mr. Antolini said this to Holden. I think Holden is so lonely because it is almost as if he feels alone in this world, like he is the only one who is having these depressed feelings and thoughts. So by Mr. Antolini telling him this, he is almost implying that Holden is not alone. That there is so many other people out there having the same thoughts and confusion. So Holden shouldn’t feel ostracized or different from the rest of the people because even if they don’t look like it, they could be feeling the same way as he does.
Yes I agree, it's like Holden is in his own little world, acting like no one else experiencing these basic human emotions. Holden refuses to see people, to look at them beyond how they appear to notice that he's not the only one who is lonely. Maybe of Holden stopped being so self centered he'll see he's not the only one being lonely.
DeleteI agree with both of you because Holden just does not see that he is not alone, but he is alone at the moment. I think that Holden does not believe that he has alot of friends and that he is alone without Phoebe, and does not see that people like him, but he does not like them.
Delete"Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry, I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but i did it. It scared hell out of old Phoebe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can't just stop on a goddam dime. I was still sitting on the edge of the bed when I did it, and she put her old arm around my neck, and I put my arm around her, too, but I still couldn't stop for a long time." (pp179)
ReplyDeleteI choose this passage because it tells us a lot about Holden and how he's been feeling about the events of the book. He's been through some hard times through out the book. He's alone in NYC, he got into two fights(Stradlater and Maurice), getting kicked out school, ruining that date with Sally. And when his sister gave him the money, it was such a sweet thing to do and since his life has mostly been lousy having such a nice thing happen to him by his sister really pulled at his heartstrings. And when she did that for him it was like dam broke and all his emotions from everything that happened that he bottled up poured out while he was with his sister. He may not understand why he cried, but as onlookers who are analyzing his every move its not hard to put the pieces together.
I think that this shows how much Holden loves Phoebe. The only other time that Holden cried, was when he was beaten up. This moment must have really touched Holden, because if all of the other horrible events that happened to him didn't make him feel this way, then this must have been a very hard-hitting moment
Delete" You don't like anything that's happening." (169) This quote stood out to me because Phoebe said it, Holden is always going on about how smart Phoebe is and how she is such a great person, and here it really shows. I thought that when Holden mentioned her that she was a real boot liker and that she always agreed with Holden and always made him sound right, but here she tells him straight out that he is a cynical person and does not like anything. I completely agree with her because from the beginning of the book Holden is always talking about the stuff he does not like, and rarely talks about the stuff he does like. I think when Phoebe says that, he realizes that she is right and that he does not like anything that is going on, modern stuff, and that he would prefer to live in the past.
ReplyDeleteI sort of disagree with you when you say that he doesn't like anything at the moment. Although there are many bad things that are re-occurring to Holden throughout the book, I still think he likes Jane, his ex-neighbor, and he most certainly likes his sister Phoebe a lot as well. I also think he likes little children that really are innocent to the world.
Delete"She told me I could sleep with her if I wanted to, but but I said no, that I'd better beat it, that Mr. Antolini was waiting for me and all. Then I took my red hunting hat out of my coat pocket and gave it to her. She likes those kinds of crazy hats." (180)
ReplyDeleteWhen he gives her that red hunting hat, I see it as a way of him giving her a piece of the strong ego that he carries with him whenever he wears that hat. In the past chapters, he had worn that hat during his most confident acts, like yelling out 'Sleep tight, ya morons!' to his fellow Pencey peers, or when he claims that the red hunting hat makes him feel good. Throughout the book, we had come to the conclusion that Holden was a victim of low self esteem and he was only truly happy whenever he was around Phoebe or around people who get his jokes. Well, why would you want to give someone who makes you happy something that didn't matter to you much? Holden's attached to his red hunting hat, which is how it remained in his pockets up until chapter 23. He probably wants Phoebe to have something to remember him, but something that got him to be confident, fulfilling, and not depressing. When I say not depressing, I put high emphasis on it because Holden couldn't even think of anything that makes him happy. It makes me feel a sense of happiness to hear that Holden gave his hunting hat to Phoebe. For me, I think he sees her as the remaining piece of existing childhood in his family. He probably doesn't want to ruin it for her and have her big brother leave the family and go through this stress. So perhaps giving her the hat will calm her. I mean, he is the catcher in the big field of rye full of kids. I couldn't imagine him leaving his sister without at all giving her something that was meaningful for him.
" "You dont like anything thats happening."
ReplyDeleteIt made me even more depressed when she said that" (pg 189)
I was struck by this quote because throughout the book, Holden is always talking about how great Phoebe is and how she makes him so happy. But in this situation Phoebe is being sort of like a parent and is scolding Holden for his actions and tells him like it i. Then he gets even more depressed than he already is. I think he felt this way because he expected Phoebe to not care and just be happy to see that hes home, but once she realized he was getting in all this trouble, she said something he didnt think she was gunna say and it hit him extremely hard since shes suppost to make him happy.
I think that you’re right, and that Holden is sort of shocked, or taken by surprise, when Phoebe tells him this. I think the main reason for this, though, is that Holden is struck by the fact that Phoebe is right, and he doesn’t like anything. Even though he tries to deny it, he can’t come up with anything that he likes, and the only thing he can think of wanting to do is to be a catcher in the rye. As you said, Phoebe is telling Holden like it is, and I don’t think Holden likes the reality he is being faced with, and is depressed by the fact that he doesn’t like anything.
Delete“That was about all I could think of, though. Those two nuns I saw at breakfast and this boy James Castle I knew at Elkton Hills,” (p. 170).
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this quote, I first wondered why it was that Holden kept thinking about the nuns and James Castle when he was trying to think of something he that likes. I think that partly, Holden was very lost and depressed, and he could only think of all of the things that he doesn’t like, and so maybe part of why instead he thought of the nuns and James Castle was because he sympathized with them, which was the closest thing he could think of to liking something. I think Holden really feels sorry for these people, who faced so much misfortune. The nuns were impoverished, and could only afford toast and coffee for breakfast and carried around cheap suitcases. James Castle was a weak, unpopular boy who was tortured by a group of boys for calling someone conceited and forced to jump out of a window and fall to his death. You can recognize Holden’s sympathy to these people because he has given things to both of them – he gave the nuns ten dollars and he gave James Castle his turtleneck sweater. Holden is in such a state at this point that he can’t think of any thing that he actually likes, but this is something that comes close. Holden has struggled so much throughout the book and believes that others are all phony, and I think the nuns and James Castle are people that he didn’t feel were phony. The nuns, even though they didn’t have anything, remained selfless and tried to do good in the world. James Castle died sticking up for himself and refused to give in to his tormentors.
I agree with you and even so he could concentrate when he was thinking about what to say when she asked him what do you like. He always will say something bad he didn't like about someone or something. So when she ask him this i think he really had too think because he will normally would have not have trouble saying what he dont like about someone .
DeleteI was struck by the fact that Holden released something or told us something so shocking and deep. On page 193 he says, "When something pervert like that happens , I start sweating... That kind of stuff happened to me about twenty times since I was kid." From this small paragraph I was able to come up or conjure up why Holden is the way he is. I think the reason Holden thinks that all grown ups are phonies because he was traumatized by getting touched or molested by adults when he was a young boy, so when he sees adults (unless they are kind like the nuns) he automatically thinks something negative about them because that's how he grew up seeing adults in a negative light. I also think the reason that Holden loves kids so much is because when you are a child, you think, act, and speak like a child most of the time making you oblivious and innocent because you don't know any better. Since Holden was molested or touched as child right then and there he had his innocence taken away and everything else that a child was supposed to be like. Now that Holden is older and he doesn't know where to go with his life, he is trying to get back the childhood that he once lost and when he gets it back and he finally closes that chapter in his life, I think eventually he will get back on to do with track and know what to do with his life.
ReplyDelete" What I may do, I may hate them for a little while, like this guy Stradlater I knew at Pencey, and this other boy, Robert Ackley. I hated them once in a while-I admit it-but it doesn't last too long, is what I'm trying to say." Page 187
ReplyDeleteWhat struck me about this passage, is how it proved what I thought about Holden's thoughts toward people correct. Holden can't keep one thought or emotion about a person concrete. Holden constantly changes his opinions about people, and never keeps just one opinion. An example is when he was on the date with the girl Sally. He hated her at one point, but then explained an elaborate plan to her about spending the rest of his life with her. He just said that he hated her about a half hour before saying that to her. Another example that I can give, is when he was with the girls at the lavender lounge. At first he was so-so with them, but then he hated them, liked one girl, and then hated all of them again. Holden can't keep one emotion, or opinion of a person. The only people that he keeps the same opinion of is Phoebe, Jane, and Allie. Does this make Holden a phony, or does it mean that he is too nice and forgiving?
I Agree with you Frank because like you said when he was on that date with Sally. At the begining he hated Sally but as the date went on he started to change and say how he, like you said elaborate a plan to spend the rest of his life with her.
Delete"All you have to do to depress somebody is give them a lot of phony advice while you're looking for you initials in some can door that's all you have to do" (Page 169)
ReplyDeleteI think Holden was given phony advice and is depressed because of it. Maybe someone in his life when Holden was struggling someone kept on giving Holden "Phony" advice and Holden didn't know what to do with that beside use it. There might have been some problems when using the advice and may have made him depressed and regret. This may be why Holden it calling people phonies because they might be living by the same advice that he used, or maybe his sort of say that only certain people can give you good advice others will give you bad advice.
I agree with the first part of what you said but also I think that when he got that bad advice he used it and got hurt. After that he learned that people will tell you things that are not true to hurt you and that you should not follow it sometimes. That when they give you the advice that want to make you feel bad and that is what someone was trying to do to Holden and why he is saying this.
Delete"'Even the couple of nice teachers on the faculty, they were phonies too,' I said"
ReplyDeleteThis surprised me that he would say that about his English teacher because he has shown that he really enjoys English. So that got me thinking why he would call them phonies. I though it was because he just saw one moments when the headmaster came in and he changed the way he acted and Holde thought that he should not have done that, that he should have been true to who he was and what he was doing. Also when I read on what he thought of the teachers wife. That she just acted nice to people who came into her house and that when she was alone of just with her husband she would act different. But he could have meant other things when he said that.
I agree with you Eleanor. Throughout the book, he says negative things to the people he cares about (I'm guessing the teacher), and uses that as to push them away. I don't think he really thought of his teachers as phonies (maybe one or two). He just uses it regularly as his every day vocabulary, even when he first named the stuff he hated about Pencey, mistaking the students (boys) as phonies.
Delete"She was listening to music. She kills me. "C'mon," I said. "You feel like dancing?" I taught her how to dance and all when she was a tiny little kid. She's a very good dancer. (pg. 175)
ReplyDeleteI think for Holden, being able to dance is more then just being able to dance. I think what Holden sees in a women's ability to dance as her personality. How she dances also shows how a women is or can sometimes even just tell a little more for a women. I remember when Holden was in the lavender room and saw the women who he thought was a moron but still liked her because she was an amazing dancer. This ability to dance can sometimes even disguise the personality or overshadow it. I think this is because Phoebe is a good dancer and when women are good dancer he might assume they also have the same good personality as Phoebe. When Holden kisses the lady in the lavender room on the head, he did it as if the kiss were for Phoebe. It was a kiss on the head like on you would give to a small child, not on the lips or cheek you would give to someone you see as partner.
“You don't like anything that's happening .” It made me even more depressed when she said that.
ReplyDelete“ I wonder why he only says or express his feelings when hes around Phoebe or talks about her.” It really surprised me that he expressing his feeling because he always lie about the littlest things; he really cares about Phoebe he never lies to her . And Phoebe is really showing how much she knows about her brother so she does care about him to because shes telling him things she know for a fact . Like how he dont like alot of things, which he does not . I think he only express his feeling around Phoebe is because she is not to judge him or say nothing .
"'You can't even think of one thing'
ReplyDelete'Yes, yes I can'
'Well do it then.'
'I like Allie''
I chose the quote when Holden was arguing with his little sister Phoebe in her bedroom about what Holden actually liked and enjoyed in life. I found this quote to be extremely important and crucial because him saying this really took a lot within himself. Although he says it so cooly and bluntly also really shows that he isn't trying to let his emotions leak out in front of his little sister, Phoebe; however what surprised me was what he said afterwards when Phoebe had said that Allie was dead, "' I know he's dead! Don't you think I know that? I can still like him, though can't I? Just because somebody's dead, you son't just stop liking them, for God's sake-especially if they were about a thousand times nicer than the people you know that're alive and all"' I really think this was one of the rare accounts of when Holdens emotions spill outside of him and carried out with his words.
I agree with you here Yuki. I think that by Holden letting this out to his sister is a way for him to spill out his emotions.
DeleteI also think that this shows hes not scared to tell Phoebe things either. As we read in the book, Holden is always having lots of issues with opening up to people, or telling the truth. In this quote right here shows how Holden can open up to Phoebe and isnt scared of being truthful to her. This makes me think if there were more people in the world, like Phoebe and Allie (to Holdens perspective) would he feel better about himself and maybe be a better kid?
"I just lit one for one second, I just took one puff. Then I threw it out the window." (p. 177)
ReplyDeleteI knew that Phoebe loved her brother, and never wanted him to get in trouble, like how she first reacted to Holden getting kicked out of Pencey, but she still lied to her parents, about smoking. Thats a huge thing, because for her age, she shouldn't be smoking at all (it might be different back then), but this shows how much she loves her brother, lying about smoking and Holden being in the house. She'd rather get scolded by her parents than Holden getting "killed" by his parents. Phoebe handled the situation well, to not give hints about why she was acting so strangely (because Holden was there).
“ You know what I’d like to be... Anyways, I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody’s around- nobody big, I mean- except me. And I’m standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start going of the cliff- I mean they’re running and they don’t know where they are going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That’s all I’d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it’s crazy, but that’s the only thing I’d really like to be.” (pg. 173)
ReplyDeleteWhy Does Holden want to be the Catcher in the Rye?
I think that Holden has already been the catcher in the rye because he is no longer part of his childhood world. Instead he's in this world where he doesn't belong. Holden loves kids because they aren't "phony or "judgmental". These kids though are going to jump off a cliff in a sense at one point when they turn into adults and that is what Holden describes as jumping off a cliff. The job of the cater in the rye is to save innocent people's lives. Holden feels a need to jump off the cliff because he feels like saving these kids from jumping off the cliff was his job what he needed to do as an adult.
-Ethan Richard Burda I
(PS I'm my internet was acting up last night and I couldn't post it.)