For tonight's blog, please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
Format:
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Question:
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" I was sorry anyway, though. goddam money. it always end up making you blue as hell".( pg.113)
ReplyDeletequestion: what does Holden mean and why did he say this, at the end of the chapter when he says money always end up making you blue as hell?
What i think Holden means is that money can make you depressed, despite the fact that he comes from a wealthy family. he felt depressed that he couldn't donate more money to the nuns because he needed to save that money for the show with Sally. I think that he wanted to donate more than 10 bucks because the nuns were really nice to him and to me he felt they weren't morons or phony's which surprised me because the majority of people he knows are morons and phony's to him. to add on, i feel that he said this because maybe the fact that they didn't ask him if he was a catholic which he feels that asking that question is not good for a conversation which may be related on how he feels about the suitcases. in pg. 113 he says " Im glad those nuns didn't ask me if i was catholic, all im saying is that it's no good for a nice conversation". Consequently, maybe he felt blue about the money because one of them reminded him of Ernest Morrow's mother who he really liked as a person and was nice to him. in pg. 112 he states " The one with the glasses made me give it back to her". "you've been more than generous", she said. " your a very sweet boy". she certainly was nice. she reminded me a little bit of old Ernest Morrow's Mother".
I strongly agree with you. I think that Holden was depressed that he had so much money but had no use for it. No good deed to use it for, so he gladly donated it to the needy. I was also surprised that Holden did not use the word phony or moron when describing the nuns. He did not call them stupid for not wanting to take his money. He was being genuinely kind. THis part of the book was touching because Holden is not very friendly many other parts of the book. Before holden talks about wishing that he had given more money, he talked about how he was happy that the nuns did not ask him if he was Catholic, but it does not seem like he cared if the nuns asked him or not because he still donated the money without being forced .
DeleteI also agree with you. The fact that he wanted to donate more money to the nuns really showed the nice and good side of Holden. I was also surprise when he didn't call them morons or phonies maybe it is the fact that they didn't ask him if he was a catholic or maybe the fact that one of the nuns reminded him or Mrs. Morrow who Holden really liked. I think that the money part depressed him because he knew that he was running low on money be he still insisted to donate more money and this prove that Holden is nice person on the inside because he isn't so nice to other people.
DeleteI agree with both Lily and Melanie, that Holden has “so much money but no use for it”, but I also believe that Holden might not like money because of how it often makes him appear in society to be better then others, something he wishes wouldn’t happen. “ I hate it when someone has cheap suitcases.... at least his suitcases were as good as mine.” (pg. 108-109). Holden hates making people feel inferior to him because of wealth divides and on page 108 describes how much he wished he could trade suitcases with his roommate who had cheap suitcases because he knew, or would later find out, that no matter how nice, or intelligent someone is, they will always care whose suitcases are better, or how I believe J.D. Salinger meant the reader to interpret it as, who has more money.
Delete" ' Who's there?' I said. ' I was pretty scared' " ( pg. 100)
ReplyDeleteWhy was Holden so scared this time out of all times that he had just as much of a reason to be scared?
I think that Holden is so scared at this point instead of any other point in the book is because Holden does not know what will happen next. Holden is usually the cause of something happening to him, so usually he has some sort of fair warning if something is going to happen. He has had plenty of times to be scared. He asked a thirty year old women to dance with him, and picked a fight with his roommate. However, Holden brought those thing upon himself. When Holden does not know what is coming, that is when he truly gets scared. The reader uncovers something else about Holden, he is afraid of anticipation. This is also the first time in the book when Holden bluntly tells the reader what he is thinking without trying to cover it up with some sort of lie or excuse. I was amazed when I read this line, and proud of Holden because he is finally opening up.
I agree. Holden has never given any real information on who he is. Based on how he talks, we come up with different character traits about him, but we don't know for sure. I also agree with Melanie that he has had plenty of times to be scared. Why would he choose this moment to be scared and tell us straight out how he feels? He tells us because he has no clue about what to do. It's Saturday and he doesn't have to go home until Tuesday or Wednesday and he has nothing to do until then.
DeleteI also agree with Melanie and Lily. Who wouldn’t be afraid being alone in a big city you just went to and a knock you’re not expecting lands upon your door? I feel that Holden feels lonely and so when a knock is at his door, he’s scared because he’s not sure who would visit him. Later on though, he said how he knew who was at the door and he was psychic. Maybe Holden felt something wasn’t right the night with Sunny and knew that something was to happen.
Delete"Boy I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't even imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed."
ReplyDeletequestion: Why does Holden feel the need to do this when he is depressed?
Answer: Even though Allie is dead he still like to talk to him out loud. I think that speaking his mind or ideas out loud to Allie comforts him in a way because he feels guilty about Allie's death almost like it was his fault that Allie died. I also think he feels guilty in a way because he never really spent a lot of time together with Allie and now he is starting to regret that decision. In the chapter he talks about how he was with a friend and they were going somewhere Allie wanted to come but Holden kept saying no because Allie was a child. I think after his brother die Holden wanted to go back in time sort of and changed his relationship with his brother if he knew that Allie was going to die.
I think that Allie’s death and not having a “place” that he fits in, causes Holden’s depression. After reading this part, I agree with you. Holden feel some kind of regret. But, I do not think that he feels responsible for his brothers death. He says, “Allie heard us talking about it, and he wanted to go, and I wouldn’t let him. I told him he was a child. So one in a while now, when I get depressed, I keep saying to him, “Okay. Go home and get your bike and meet me in front of Bobby’s house.” (page 99) I felt sad when I heard this. Holden feels regret for the way he treated Allie. He did not necessarily treat Allie bad but he wishes that he had made some different decisions. The reason that Holden talks to Allie when he is depressed is because Allie was one of his only friends, and Holden wants to make up for all the times he thinks he was mean or unfair to Allie.
Delete"When I said that, he got up from is chair and started walking towards me and all. He looked like he was very, very tired or very, very bored. God, was I scared. I sort of had my arms folded, I remember. It wouldn't have been so bad, I don't think, if I hadn't had just my goddam pajamas on." (p102)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden try to act tough and show people that he doesn't care when really inside he is scared, feels lost, and needs help?
I feel that Holden does this because he doesn't want to have to talk to people about how he feels lonely all the time. He never really ever tried to make friends with anyone besides Jane. I think its all about isolation. He tries to make friends but he keeps away from people because he always finds something that's wrong with them. He also keeps away from everyone else to show that he might not interact with anyone but he is capable of hurting someone. I also think that it also has a lot to do with a tough image. For example, during this event that Holden had with Maurice and the prostitute, Sunny, Holden explained his entire thought process. He was telling Maurice and Sunny one thing but was thinking another. Holden genuinely seemed scared. Also on this page, Holden says that he'll scream. We know Holden fought with Stradlater. Why would Holden not want to beat up a guy who is probably 3 times his age. He says he'll scream but he didn't say he would hit him. I found it weird because I always thought Holden would want to keep his tough image but threw it away once he started crying.
I think Holden tries to act tough when he is actually scared or lost because he is so concerned of what people with think of him if he actually opens up. Maybe this is why at the beginning of the book he seemed almost reluctant to tell us his story. I think this quote shows how afraid Holden is of being judged. He doesn’t even want to be seen with just his pajamas on. I think when he is the most scared or lost is when he is most defensive and afraid of being judged which makes him even less likely to open up. In the same Holden judge’s people before they can judge him as a defense mechanism, he keeps everything to himself to protect himself. The reader knows he doesn’t have a lot of friends so there really isn’t anyone that he can talk to even if he wants to. I think Jane and Allie were the people he was closet to, and he can’t open up to Jane because he is afraid of her judgment. Holden acts tough so that people will be less likely to judge him and he won’t be as hurt if they do.
Delete“It’s so phony.”
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden always think something id fake? Why does he not allow himself to think something is real or genuine?
I think Holden is afraid of being hurt. Although Holden does not say anything Holden has had a lot of disappointment in his life. Maybe not disappointment from others but from himself. I believe Holden thinks if he does not think anything is real it won’t be. Holden is scared I think. Holden doesn’t want to trust the world. Therefore to him everybody and everything is phony. He thinks everything and everybody is lying to him. He won’t open up about anything and I think he purposely keeps it a secret from the reader because he doesn’t like opening up about these kinds of stuff. I think this leads up to something but I am not sure yet. Holden has some trust issues with himself and he needs to figure them out. I think Holden needs to figure some things out before he can continue on. I think he disappoints him self that’s why he thinks everything is phony and fake because if everything is face what Holden does is fake too.
I completely agree on the fact that Holden may be a bit dissapointed in himself. In a way, also Holden may say things are phony because maybe he can read a person. I can actually relate to it a bit, because I know there have been moments where someone has said something and i think that person is a bit of a phony just because of the way they may have said it, or their body language. Or maybe even the word could be a bit annoying! Some things may just bother Holden a bit, and he just Calls them phony! Who knows?
DeleteI wholeheartedly agree with you because Holden says things are people are phony, it's because of their body language or the fact he makes assumptions about people without knowing getting to meet the person themselves. Many people have assumptions about people without even knowing getting to know person is personally. Honestly, I hate that because you can't say that someone is bad unless you have solid evidence and a valid explanation to say how this person is bad.
DeleteI agree! I think what you said "if everything is fake what Holden does is fake too" is right, because he is always being fake, like when he pretends to be someone else or lies to his teachers about his opinion. Holden thinks everyone around his is fake, the way he called the piano player fake, the waiter, and others. Holden uses this tactic to live through life not trusting, not believing, and judging people.Probably the reason Holden is so fake and lies so much, is because he is trying to find himself meaning he is lost and doesn't know who he wants to be, so he lies to everyone to see how he likes being the person he is lying about.
Delete"Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking sort of out loud, to Allie." -pg 98
ReplyDeleteWhy does he talk to Allie when he's feeling depressed?
I actually think that the reason why Holden talks to Allie when he is feeling depressed is because Allie can't really judge him. As I have read, I have realized that Holden is actually a bit scared of what people think of him even though he acts like he doesn't and maybe that is the reason why he does not really like to speak of his personal life to others around him because they will begin to judge him. But, when he is feeling depressed, he might talk to Allie because he can tell him about his personal life and how he is feeling and why is he feeling that kind of way and Allie can't answer or judge him negatively because he is dead! In a way, it is a bit like the quote "It's like you're screaming, but no one can hear." because Holden goes through so much and he is depressed and he even thinks suicidal thoughts but since he is such a closed book no one knows what he is actually feeling and talking to Allie may help him a bit because he knows Allie is listening but he can't say anything, and although Holden may not admit it, I think he just really wants someone to be there and comfort him and tell him that he is okay and that everything will be alright. I think Holden needs help and maybe even a bit of closure in his life.
I strongly agree that Allie is a person who won't judge him in a way to make him feel depressed. Allie is another person he can talk to about his personal life. Even though, he is quiet to say his thoughts out loud. He doesn't even know where he belongs in the world. Also, " What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window."(pg.104) he is saying suicidal thoughts because he wants to end his life quickly. I think Allie will like you said, help him get over this point of life that everything will just fall into place.
Delete“ What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed.” (pg.98)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden talk to Allie when he is depressed?
As many of us have noticed while reading the book, is that one of the characteristics of people that Holden values the most is their non-phoniness. The problem though in this is that as most people mature, their phoniness increases, one of the reasons why Holden likes little kids so much. But Allie though was never phony, died as a young kid and therefore will never become a phony. This same mentality of Holden’s goes for judgement as well. Holden who likes talking to kids, especially Phoebe his little sister, enjoys it because unlike adults, kids wont judge him. And for Holden, Allie is still the nicest, little, red haired boy who therefore won’t, and can’t have any negative opinions of Holden. Even though there are others who may have these same attributes, like Jane and Phoebe, talking to them can be an issue for Holden. With Jane for instance, Holden is afraid that by talking to her, Jane might reject him, something he is fearful of from everyone, everyone that is but Allie. Likewise, Holden is worried that by calling Phoebe he may have to talk to his parents, making Phoebe almost impossible to talk to, while in a certain sense Allie is, and will always be there for Holden. Talking, is also one of Holden’s many coping methods with depression, and Allie is the only one that Holden can always, and easily talk to. Also, Holden loves Allie very much, and maybe talking out loud to Allie feels real to Holden, as if Allie still might be alive.
I absolutely agree with you! I was going to use this quote as well, to express that Allie will always be there for Holden. Adding on, I feel as though Holden just needs someone to listen to him. Throughout the book, it explains that he's always in search of some stranger to talk to. It's probably because they won't judge him. For example a lot of people, including myself, are afraid of performing in front of people they know, then opposed to performing in front of people they do know. This is because subconsciously we know they are going to have a new opinion based off already knowing us. This also goes back to chapter 12, how he says it's terrible that people were clapping for Ernie; People don't know how long he practiced, they don't know how long it took him to get to where he is, they don't know him.
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ReplyDelete"Goddamn movies. They ruin you." (104)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why are the movies so important to Holden? Why does Holden hate them so much? Why might have Salinger chosen this as a “recurring” theme?
Answer: Movies are a recurring theme in this book. Everytime they come up, Holden has something negative to say about them. In this scene, Holden pictures a crime scene from the movies when he is caught in a fight with Maurice. In a way, I think that Holden is envious of all the adventures that happen in the movies. He is always complaining of boredom. Could Holden be jealous of the lives of characters in movies? In addition, when Holden talks about D.B. he mentions that D.B’s book got made into a movie. Now D.B. is a hotshot in Hollywood. Holden may hate movies because his brothers got taken away from him by the movie industry. After explain his brother D.B., Holden says, “If there is one thing that I hate, it’s the movies. Don’t ever mention them to me.” (2) I think that there is more that he is not telling the reader yet. Could his hatred toward movies also have to do with Allie? I will be interested to see if Salinger chooses to further develop this theme.
"Then I'd throw my automatic down the elevator shaft- after I'd wipe off all the finger prints and all. Then I'd crawl back to my room and call Jane and have her come over and bandage up my guts. I pictured her holding a cigarette for me to smoke while i was bleeding and all... The goddamn movies. They can ruin you." (pg.104)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden keep thinking about Jane in his times of need and loneliness?
Jane is probably one of Holden's savior's because she brings him back fond memories, which comforts him. Chapter 11 is practically dedicated to Jane and it shows how they're always there for each other. "She's the only one, outside my family, that I ever showed Allie's baseball mitt to,with all the poems written on it... She was interested in that kind of stuff."(pg.77) This displays Holden's feelings towards Jane; she's a very special person to Holden. Another example is "Jane is different. We'd go to a goddamn movie or something, and right away we'd start holding hands...all you knew was, you were happy. You really were." This expresses the comforting feeling Holden receives from Jane because she can make him happy.
Second quote (pg.79)
DeleteI also agree with you, I also believe that Jane is probably one of Holden's savior's because she brings him back fond memories, which comforts him. In addition, I believe that the reason why Holden keeps going back and remembering Jane is because, he strongly feels that she and her sister Phoebe were the only people that truly understood Holden and didn't judge him well at least yet. Furthermore, I also think that he only remembers Jane when he feels depressed since the most vivid memory of her is when she is crying and also feeling depressed. For example, back in chapter 11 when they were playing checkers and Jane’s stepfather comes and asks her if there were any cigarettes in the house and she ignores him and after he leaves she starts crying and he comforts her. To me that is the perfect reason, why he always remembers Jane in his desperate times of need since when Jane needed comforting he comforted her and I believe that he wants the favor returned to him and that’s the reason why he always thinks of her whenever he feels depressed. Those are some reasons, why Holden always keeps remembering Jane whenever he feels depressed.
Delete"Leave me alone.Get the hell out of my room,''I said. I still had my arm folded and all.God, what a jerk I was."(pg.102)
ReplyDeleteWhy did Holden call himself a Jerk? How come people are being ignorant and not being considerate of his feelings?
I felt very confused by this quote because it doesn't make sense, that if he wants to be left alone and he is expressing this to Maurice and Sunny. How come Holden called himself a jerk? He is clearly being harassed by Maurice and Sunny "You owes us five bucks."(pg.102) and " What I'd do, I walk down a few floors-holding onto my guts,blood leaking all over place'' (pg.104) Maurice had punched him in the stomach, just to give Sunny 5 bucks, yet he already paid her. Holden shouldn't call himself a jerk he's standing up for himself. The answer to the second question people are being ignorant and don't care about his feelings is because they only care about their own needs."Cut the crap,now. Let's have it."(pg.102) Maurice is being selfish and only caring about the 5 bucks for the throw. Holden doesn't understand why he needs to do that. It reminds about how Stradlater didn't care about Jane's quirkiness with her putting her kings in the back row because he doesn't want to get know her personally." He was a goddam stupid moron"(pg.44) This leads to an important question: Is the adult world filled with senseless people that don't understand anything?
I think that people are being so ignorant and inconsiderate because Holden puts up a front, so that he doesn't let out to much of his actual feelings. I agree with you that it is silly that he is calling himself a jerk, but it all just goes back to the fact that he has very low self confidence. I think in a way he is trying to avoid other people making fun of him and the way his "arms were folded and all", so in his head he tells himself that his is being a jerk, to avoid being made fun of.
Delete"She hasn't felt to healthy since my
ReplyDeletebrother Allie died. She's very nervous. That's another reason why I hated like hell for her to know I got the ax again." (pg 107)
Why is Holden being kicked out of all of these schools? Is it because of his relationship with his parents?
Since at this point we are unsure of Holden's relationship with his parents it is hard to tell the reason why he is rebelling. In this chapter Holden starts to tell us what his dad does for a living (even though on the first page he said he wouldn't), it gives you a better idea of his relationship with his parents. He says that his dad is a lawyer and he thinks that he "hauls it in", but he is kind of unsure of this, which makes me think that maybe him and his dad aren't very close. His mom on the other hand, Holden isn't really upset for himself and his future because of getting himself kicked out of school, he is upset that he has to burden his mom with the news. Holden is also very set on waiting until Tuesday or Wednesday to go home so that his parents won't suspect anything, but he is going to tell them the news when he gets home anyway, so why is it so important to him that he waits?
"she hasn't felt too healthy since my brother Allie died. She's very nervous . That's another reason why I hated like hell for her to know I got ax again" (pg 140)
ReplyDeleteIf Holden hates his mom so much why his afraid to tell her that he got expelled?
I don't personally feel that he hates his mom but,he is afraid of hurting her physically and mentally if he tells her that got expelled again because he said before that he hasn't been very well since his brother Allie passed away and he is afraid that this would hurt her which is the last thing he wants to do . I personally loved this quote because it shows how afraid he is to go home and tell his family why he got expelled and also it shows his connection with his mom even though he says he doesn't have one. -Nayah Ferris
I Agree. I don't think he actually Hates his mom but that maybe he doesn't want to disappoint her. I think since he said" She hasn't felt too healthy since my brother Allie died." That he doesn't want to add more pressure to that. He just wants her to be Happy not sad all the time. I think he just misses how she was before Allie died.
DeleteHate is such a strong word. No one really hates another unless it's something unforgivable. In Holden's case, he's just going through his very long phases. He does not hate his mom. I don't think he meant that through this quote. I actually think he cares for his mom, saying she hasnt felt too healthy. He doesn't want her to feel anxious for his son anymore.
Delete“It wasn’t that I didn’t use to take him with me when I went somewhere. I did. But that one day, I didn’t. He didn’t get sore about it-he never got sore about anything- but I keep thinking about it anyways, when I get very depressed” (99)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What else does Holden feel guilty about? How does this guilt affect him?
Answer: I think Holden feels guilty about a lot of things. He takes him mistakes very personally and he is always overthinking everything. One place where this was shown is when he was talking about how he talks to Allie, saying that he should go get his bike and come with Holden and his friend. The quote above shows that Holden feels guilty that he didn’t let Allie come with him and his friend. He carries that guilt around with him and when he’s sad and alone he lets himself think about things like that. Holden feels guilty because there was no way to save Allie from dying and he carries some of that guilt around with him, like he should have done something more. Holden also feels guilty when he thinks about telling his mother that he got kicked out of Pencey. Holden says “She’s very nervous. That’s another reason why I hated like hell for her to now I got the ax again.” (107) Holden feels guilty about this not because he think his parents will be upset at him or disappointed in him, but that he’s worried it might hurt his mother. He doesn’t want his actions to hurt her, especially since his brother and her son died. He feels guilty about the way this will impact his mother and he feels sorry that his mother will know that he got kicked out rather than that he got kicked out. Another way Holden’s guilt is shown is during his encounter with the nuns. He first feels guilty that they are only having a small breakfast and he is having a lot more. Holden then feels guilty that he didn’t pay their check, even though they said it was fine. After they leave, he feels guilty that he blew smoke accidently in their faces and that he only gave them ten dollars for their collection. He can’t just do something without over analyzing it till he feels guilty and regrets it. He disregards that is was an accident or that the person really didn’t want his help, and only thinks that he could have done more. I think this also goes back to his guilt over Allie dying and him not being able to save him. One other example of Holden feeling guilty is the suitcases. He feels guilty that he is richer and can afford nice suitcases. This is shown with his former roommate and the nuns. He feels so guilty about the suitcases with his roommate that he goes so far as to put them underneath his bed. He also feels guilty that the nuns don’t have nice suitcases and he ends up feeling sorry for them. I think this also is about Holden wanting to fit in and being equal to everyone else. Holden’s guilt affects every encounter he has with anyone and it all goes back to Allie.
I agree with you. I also feel that Holden holding all him guilt inside of him leads to him feeling less confident about himself. It pushes him to the point where all the regret makes him feel worthless to himself, and it causes him to look down on himself even when he doesn't deserve to. I also think that Allie hurt him the most because he was one of the only people that Holden truly cared about, and he'll never forgive himself for Allie's death.
DeleteQuotes: “They didn't seem to know what the hell to do with their suitcases, so I gave them a hand. They were these very inexpensive-looking suitcases-the ones that aren't genuine leather or anything. It isn't important, I know, but I hate it when someone has cheap suitcases. It sounds terrible to say it, but I can even get to hate somebody, just looking at them, if they have cheap suitcases with them.” (Salinger 108)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden, judge people without even knowing how people really are?
When I read this quote, I felt really flustered and infuriated at the same time since he is acting a like a hypocrite in this quote. Holden in my perspective is a hypocrite and a phony. Sure he acts like he hates phony people but he doesn't realize that he is a phony as well. For example, to the nuns he puts a smile to show how he is glad to help them but in the inside he is disgusted about carrying the suitcases. In my perspective I think that, Holden is really insecure and that leads him to judge everyone because he thinks that this keeps him safe since judging people is only way to keep everyone from forming a bond with him. Furthermore, I think he judges people since he thinks that he in a way is above everyone. For instance, he just judged these two nuns for carrying cheap suitcases without knowing their backgrounds, for all he knows the nuns could have being born in a wealthier family than his. Those are some reasons why I strongly believe that Holden judges people without even knowing who people really are.
i agree strongly with you but i do think that holden realizes that he is a phony and a hypocrite and that might be why he is so depressed. i also think he hates carrying there bags but that was how he was raised. i also wonder if his perspective on the suitcases would have been backwards if he had bad suitcases and he hated people with nice one and maybe he is just looking for something to get mad at and annoyed with.
DeleteI totally agree with what your are stating from your perspective. I believe that Holden is almost judging other people because he feels that he is much better than anybody. It seems like he is acting like this total know it all in responding towards the social class of other people. But maybe he is just judging people by his suitcases because he sort of envy them or maybe he has nothing else for his life to recover from. like he once said he was going through a stage but I personally think that he pretty much doesn't know his future or what he is going to live for?
DeleteI agree with all of you and in my perspective, i believe that Holden judges almost everyone he comes across because maybe it makes him feel that people are quite inferior to him in someway. maybe he does it because he thinks of himself as a higher class which i think is really stupid because at this point of his life he doesn't even know where to go and what to do. for example he says that he doesn't know how he's going to approach his parent's with being kicked out again. which maybe judging others makes him feel less depressed and make him feel less unfortunate for the life he has and the state of depression he is in where as he even has suicidal thoughts.
Delete"swell, well listen... id love too. grand. grand if its one word a hate, its grand. its so phony" (106)
ReplyDeletewhy does holden/salinger talk different and think different?
when holden is talking he is so formal and so polite and uses old fashion words and stuff but when he is thinking in his head he talks like we do now in like slang. i wonder if all people back then do the same or is holden just different. this very weird to me because i talk and think the same way. this might also be related to holden being a liar in a way or depressed maybe he wants to change and is kinda putting up an act. this might also be j.d. salinger's writing voice and it has nothing to do with holden.
"What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed." (PG.98) How does Holden talk to his dead brother? Does he literally talk to him?
ReplyDeleteThis quote caught my attention for many reasons. For one, he says he talks to Allie when he's depressed. Thinking of the kind of guy Allie is, makes him feel comfort. He talks to him so that he can make him a peace of mind. It's the only he can not feel alone. The kind of guy Allie is, is that he's a likeable kind a guy, as Holden describes him in the previous pages. Drifting off and thinking about things like this, makes Holden from going off to the verge of becoming suicidal. In a way I think 'talking to Allie' is healthy for Holden, because it distracts him for a bit, even though Allie is dead.
I think Holden talks to Allie in his head because he talks to himself a lot. Holden talks to Allie because he feels lonely and depressed and Allie gives him comfort about himself. Allie also leads to Holden opening up about his pass. I also believe that Holden just thinks about Allie sometimes to feel good about himself.
DeleteI think Holden talks"to" Allie because Allie can't ignore him or at least holden feel that way. Allie was and is someone that holden could talk to about anything thing and when he died it made holden want to talk to him even more so.
Delete"What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the winddw." (pg 136 in my book)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden refer to suicide a lot? Why doesn't he try to dig himself out of the hole he's in?
I think for Holden, so much has gone wrong in his life that the easiest emotion to be is sad. He doesn't really have much to be happy about, and it seems to drag him down further and further. So much has gone wrong- he can't stop thinking of Jane, he can't bring himself to call Phoebe, he doesn't really want to be around anyone anymore- and it leaves him feeling down. I find it interesting, though, that he chooses to refer to suicide. Things have to get really bad for someone to consider taking his or her own life, and I wonder at what point it became like that for Holden. He could have said that he feels really bad, or that everything is getting to be too much for him, but instead he referred to suicide. In a way, it's his way of asking for help: he's just trying to ask for things to get better. It's hard, though, for him to realize that things aren't going to get better unless he makes and effort for them to get better, and he doesn't seem to be putting that effort in yet. He needs to find something or someone that will lift his spirits, but it's hard for him to try when he's already lost so much.
"what I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out of the window , I probably would have done it -- If I had been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed......I didn't want a bunch of rubbernecks looking at me"
ReplyDeletewhat does Holden mean when he refers to being covered up as soon as he falls? What is Holden's perspective toward suicide?
In my perceptive this quote means that Holden's depression is getting the best of himself and his confidence in even noticing that he is somebody in life. Holden felling lonely makes him realize that there is nobody else to care for or to worry about when he is dead, he doesn't have to make any type of arrangements or wonder how other people or family members would suffer because of his absence. in the back of his mind he is probably thinking to himself, "what am I that is so significant or useful to anybody if I'm always being beaten like if I was nothing just a lousy little rich boy looking for a friend?" I actually felt like being lonely in such a crowded city can really bring your self-esteem to even death and destroying your life. I think Holden's perspective to suicide is almost an escape to all of his problems he doesn't have to suffer any rejection from anybody or any more pain that can he can handle his own self. He thinks that its any easy way out for him and all of his problems in life he doesn't have to questioned his next step. I think that Holden feels that when he dies he just doesn't want people to feel sorry for him at all knowing that he is always putting this front between his friends and himself. it almost seems that he wants to put his death short and simple just like the way he described the death of Allie
"It was more because I didn't feel like getting in and out of another taxicab." (page: 88)
ReplyDeleteIs this because he's never gotten an answer to his question about the ducks?
Yes, I think that Holden is getting tired of riding in taxicabs but is there more of a reason to that? He has never really gotten an answer to his question about the ducks… Could this be why he's tired of riding in taxis? He always seems to ask the taxi drivers whether they know the answer or not and so far they haven't so has he just given up on it?
“What I really felt like though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window.” (pg. 104)
ReplyDeleteHow come Holden is over reacting about something not that important?
It seems bizarre to me how Holden feels like killing himself over something as little as losing five bucks, getting smacked in the face then punched in the stomach. Although this is no small matter, I don’t feel that it’s a big as a problem for Holden to jump out the window. I guess I can see where Holden’s coming from, wishing he could of stood up to Maurice and showed him he’s no one to be messing with. I get this impression when Holden talks about this fantasy of how he would go down the stairs to Old Maurice and put six bullets through his stomach.
Contrary to what you said, I do not think Holden is overacting at all. I also, sadly, disagree when you say Holden is overreacting about one subject in particular. Personally, I believe that it is the sum of all the events that are occurring in Holden’s life that are giving him such nasty thoughts. I do not believe for a second that Holden is upset over simply losing five dollars. Think about it this way: you just got kicked out of your school, you’re a runaway, the amounts of cash in your pockets are so rapidly decreasing and you have no idea who you should call for help. If this was the case for you, wouldn't you be making a fuss over trivial things too? I would be.
Delete"Then he smacked me. I didn't even get out of the way or duck or anything. All I felt was this terrific punch in my stomach." (pg.103)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Was Holden trying to get hurt? If so why? Does he feel so lonely he wants to feel something, anything?
Answer: This line stood out to me, it made me wonder DID HOLDEN WANT TO GET PUNCHED???? Holden is very smart and quick with responses, like sarcasm. Then Holden says "I didn't even get out of the way", when I read that I was very confused. "All of a sudden i started to cry" (pg.103), "I was pretty scared" (pg.100), "my old heart was damn near beating me out the room" (pg.101), and "My voice was shaking like a bastard" (pg. 102) all show that Holden was not looking forward to getting hurt. Then why would Holden not at least try to move away from the punch? Maybe Holden was so scared he just froze, or maybe he thought he wouldn't win, so he just wanted to stand there and take the punch. Maybe Holden thought just standing there would make him stronger. I don't believe Holden was looking forward to the punch, but I don't understand why Holden would have just stood there. I also think its interesting how Holden just goes to the bathroom, takes a shower, and goes to sleep like normal, without continually mentioning the pain he felt.
I don't think Holden was TRYING to get punched, I think it's more that he wasn't even aware of what was going on. Think about it: Holden was trying to seem tough, he was trying to stand up for himself against Maurice and Sunny, but he couldn't. For example, Holden said "I was still sort of crying. I was so damn mad and nervous and all." (103) Holden is so used to showing people that he's this tough guy who's got it all together, but he's not. Holden was probably just really upset that he wasn't standing up for himself a little better so he had this whole emotional breakdown after.
Delete“I had no place to go.” (Pg. 106—107)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: In this context, the message Holden is trying to exert is literal. He, physically, has nowhere to go. However, could Holden be feeling this way mentally as well?
Holden is just like any other teenager, trying to find his place in the world. Personally, I believe that Holden hasn’t discovered his "place," yet. Through this quote, Holden is indirectly exerting the idea that he seeks a home. By home, he does not simply yearn for a house that is capable of having a roof above his head, but rather, a place where he knows he belongs. Whether it be an abandoned alley in the middle of nowhere or a pristine house located somewhere in the middle of everywhere, Holden Caulfield still hasn't found a place where he feels that he fits in. Therefore, I think it is safe to say that Holden is still on the lookout for his own little paradise. At the moment, Holden Caulfield has nowhere to go, not only literally, but also mentally, in the sense that he does not feel like he belongs anywhere.
"Allie heard us talking about it, and he wanted to go, and I wouldn't let him. I told him he wanted to go, and I wouldn't let him. I told him he was a child."( 99)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: He feels depressed now but now after he's gone he asks for forgiveness? Why not after he said he was child ?
Answer: I think that now that he's older he feels guilty, but since he was young then he didn't pay mind to it. Now that he's older he thinks back and feels guilty for doing that but why ask for forgiveness now after he's no longer alive ? This confuses me because he could've asked for forgiveness she he was still alive. I personally relating to this I think about what I say to people and how it made them feel and if I feel I offended them in some type of way then I think I should apologize. So why didn't Holden apologize to Allie ?
“I felt so depressed, you can’t imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie.” (98)
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Holden does this when he’s depressed. Maybe there’s a certain reason?
This question came up while I was reading tonight. I came up with a possible explanation for why Holden feels like he has to talk to Allie when he’s depressed. First of all, Holden talks about Bobby Fallon’s house in Maine and how Allie wanted to play with them, but Holden wouldn’t let him. I think that the author uses this detail to show us that Holden still feels really guilty about not letting Allie play with them that one time, especially because Allie’s dead now and Holden probably feels like he can never apologize to Allie. So when he’s really depressed, Holden “talks” to Allie and pretends to tell him that he can go play with Bobby. “Go home and get your bike and meet me in front of Bobby’s house,” Holden imagined telling Allie. (page 99) This depresses Holden because he’s already kind of lonely first of all, but also because a little part of Holden still misses Allie and he wishes he had another opportunity to apologize to Allie and to ask him if he wants to play with him and Bobby after all.
"I told her Pencey, and she'd her of it. she said it was a very good school. I let it pass, though." pg 111
ReplyDeleteQuestion: why does he keep saying that he goes to Pencey to random people when he was kicked out?
He keeps telling everyone he meets that he goes to Pencey when he has been kicked out. Then he gets mad when they say its a good school because he knows how bad it actually it but decides not to tell them. I think the reason he tells others that he goes to Pencey is because he's afraid how they will judge him if he says he's been kicked out. Holden seems to be insecure on whether or not one has any source of intellect. Another reason why he might say he still goes to Pencey is because he's probably not ready to say good bye to Pencey and he feels like he might still belong there. On page 52 he says "I was sort of crying. I don't know why." so i believe this is a reason why he keeps telling others about going to pencey, because he is still uncomfortable about leave Pencey.
"I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed." (Pg.98)
ReplyDeleteWhat does Holden mean? Why does he talk to his dead brother when hes depressed? Why Allie?
I think Holden tends to talk to his brother when hes depressed because he has no one to turn to or talk to for advice so instead he talks to his dead brother rather than being able to talk to a friend or even a stranger. In the previous chapters Holden tries to talk to strangers but they either ignore him, take advantage of him or treat him like hes stupid. For example, the 3 women in the lavender room ignore him and make him pay for all the things they drank/ate. Another example is when the cab driver says how is he suppose to know where the ducks go. It seems like the cab driver thinks hes stupid. I think Holden feels as if he can still trust Allie even though hes gone.
“... if I hadnt been sort of afraid, the whole time I was talking to them, that they'd all of a sudden try to find out I was a Catholic."(page 112)
ReplyDeleteWhy was he afraid other then the reason that the question would have ruined the conversation?
Holden might not like to be asked if he is Catholic because he feels that he won't fit in by being placed in a group. I say this because Holden likes to be a lone a lot and also to remove himself from being accounted for in a group. He usually does this by putting his red hunting hat on in previous chapter. Holden also might not like to be asked if he is Catholic because he might not know enough about the religion or follow it enough which might lead to others judging him. The question might also lead to Holden having to start lieing or seeing the person who asked him the question differently.
Sasha Kundin
ReplyDelete"About halfway to the bathroom, I sort of started pretending I had a bullet in my guts. Old Maurice had plugged me."
Why is Holden so affected by the slap and why does he do this?
I feel like the slap wasn't just a slap to Holden, that it brought out physical and emotional pain as well. In the past chapters that we've been learning more and more about Holden, and it's no secret that Holden is depressed. He might be one of the most miserable people I've ever seen. And I believe when he was slapped what came out of him was the physical pain, and the emotional pain he's been keeping inside of him for all this time. It just came rushing out of him, and he had so much of it inside of him that it overwhelmed him that he stayed on the floor for a while. Because who passes out after a normal slap? especially when you're over 6 feet tall. Also Holden acting like he had been shot is his childish side coming out again, as he said he act's a lot younger than his age at times. And as a kid if you've gotten slapped you would of acted like you were in a crazy showdown or a serious fight. This is Holden trying to put light in the situation, you could say? But another one of his characteristics showing.