Post
your reader responses here: Choose a line from the text and explain why
it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem
important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a
connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about
Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in
general?
Then, respond to someone else's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward. Ask more questions to keep the dialogue going...
"Some girls you practically never find out whats the matter."
ReplyDeleteI think this line is extremely interesting. It shows how similar Jane and Holden are. They both don't want to face our talk about their problems. I think they also both attempt to run away from their problems. After Holden was with her when she cried, they went to a movie. Holden is always running away from his problems, and it is so interesting that she is the same way. They are really similar. Another example of this is when Jane and Holden first meet. On page 77 it say, "I [Holden] had a helluva time convincing her that I didn't give a good goddam where her dog relieved himself." Like Holden, she often chooses to see the worst people. Holden thinks everyone is phony, Jane has a similar tendency. Today in case we discussed how we can often are annoyed by thing or actions to similar to us. This is the opposite for Holden and Jane.
I agree with this. Jane and Holden are the same because they both choose to hide and ignore their problems. I think this is why Holden spent so much time with Jane and remembers a lot of things about her, and they got along so well.
DeleteI completely agree with you, you're right.They both don't want to talk about their problems or face it. And they are running away from their problems, which makes them similar. But do you think they are hiding something bad of their memory, making them run away from their problems?"
DeleteI agree with you Tamar, I notice how Jane was different from all the other girls that Holden has ever met, he always thinks there such morons or the other thousand names he calls girls. But I feel Jane was different because she was similar to Holden, she kept hiding and not wanting to face her problems.
Delete"I'm a goddam minor." pg. 70
ReplyDeleteThis line shows another childlike side of Holden. It almost seems like he wants to be an adult, but just the perks of being an adult. He wants those special privileges, but without the responsibilities and independence. But I feel like this is a universal feeling. When I was younger, all I wanted to do was grow up. The media showed that being a teenager meant having freedom and going to parties, and it all seemed so cool and fun. But as a teenager now, that is incredibly unrealisic and there are endless responsibilities now being piled on top of you. Holden only wants the "good" part of being an adult, but he still doesn't want to truly grow up.
I agree, Holden might seem to be childlike but the adventures he seeks, drinking with women he doesn't know seem to be adult in nature. It makes you wonder what kind of adult Holden would be childlike or hardbitten? In any case, what Holden was striving for seems to be an adventure that will get his mind off his problems.
DeleteI agree with what you said about Holden "striving for *what* seems to be and adventure that will get his mind of his problems." I fee like Holden is at a tough point in his life where he is being forced to make a lot of tough decisions. But because he is narrating the story, he doesn't show any anxiety, but I suspect that he is feeling quite a lot of pressure. And this whole story is his adventure to let himself vent.
Delete"What a lady, boy. A queen, for Chrissake." Chapter 9
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it reminded me of how Holden used to call Ackley a prince. Now he was calling this girl he had met at his hotel a queen. He used to call Ackley a prince whenever Ackley tried to annoy him and to settle him. I'm assuming that Holden doesn't like the girls personality or small talk, just her dancing. Holden also says " She wasn't listening, though. So I ignored her for a while. We just danced. God, could that dopey girl dance." and "She was really a moron. But what a dancer." I also realized that Holden tends to talk to people just to amuse himself. For example, he wasn't crazy about this girl or Ackley, but he was just doing it because he had nothing better in mind.
i agree with what your saying, although i believe that Holden talks to these unusual people because he thinks they are phonies and wont have to really make an effort to understand them. in addition he also does it as self defense, because he knows he can criticize them.
Delete“Some people you shouldn't kid, even if they deserve it.” -Pg: 74
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because Holden knows that wheat he is doing to wrong. He likes playing around and lying but in the end he ends up regretting it. When he regrets doing something to someone he doesn't go around them anymore, making him socially awkward. I think that he can’t help being socially awkward because he has a guilty conscience and doesn’t want to face the person again. It’s like he makes himself like on purpose because he knows he cant carry out a truthful friendship.
You had a very good analysis, but, Holden clearly states he doesn't care what people think of him. Yet, he actually does. And when he jokes with people, people don't usually get his "jokes" and take them personally. Holden doesn't really understand that, so he keeps joking around with them. Until afterwards, he understands he hurt their feelings or something and does get very guilty.
Delete"Where you girls from? Don't answer if you don't feel like it. I don't want you to strain yourself." - Pg. 72
ReplyDeleteI found this quote very funny. Holden was really trying to start a conversation with this girl he found attractive, but she didn't pay attention to him. She was too busy looking for a celebrity to show up. Holden was trying to get his mind off of Jane, but that didn't work because once he left he started thinking about her. He also gets frustrated because of the little intelligence that these women possessed.
"You never even worried with Jane whether your hand was sweaty or not. All you knew was, you were happy. You really were." (Pg-79)
ReplyDeleteAs shown in chapter 11, Holden expresses his affection and admiration for Jane. i personally think that Holden is opening up a new characteristic of his personality that shows how he can actually care for someone, or have an intimate relationship with them; instead of isolating himself by choice, from creating a strong friendship with anyone. He seems to put himself in anti social situations, where he is mixed with adults.
I liked this line a lot, and I agree with you that Holden is showing another side of himself that is caring and intimate. Just because Holden seems strange and anti-social when he is by himself, doesn't necessarily mean that he can't form close relationships with others. He just has to put effort into that relationship, which i don't think he does very often. This relates to everybody because in everyone's life, there is going to be at least one person, maybe a really close friend, that you put a lot of effort into and have a special relationship with.
DeleteI also found this quote to be very significant. In class we discussed how he is more honest when he is by himself. On the Character Clues sheet I wrote how Jane really changes how he behaves. So when he explains how he feels when he's with her, I really got a sense of that change. In this whole book I have been unable to truly know Holden 100% so when he gives this other side to himself and explains a different type of relationship that he has with someone, I got to know him even better! I wonder if he doesn't like making an effort to create a relationship with people that he really cares about... An example other than Jane would be Holden's siblings, D.B., Allie, and Phoebe he talks about them as if they are the one part of his life that he is really proud of. They are people that he truly love(s/d) and they change him.
DeleteI really liked this quote too. I thought it was really relateable. Like you know that feeling and you're walking down the street and your holding someones hand and it just feels right. And you don't care if your hand or their hand gets clamy or cold because you know its your job to keep it warm. You can also see Holden's softer side in this quote which is odd to see.
Delete"you dont always have to get sexy to get to know the girl." pg. 76
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me not only because it shows his maturity level but it shows Holdens sensative side. It proves the point that when he gets around people he cares about he doesnt act the same. Instead of seeing the "i dont like or care about anybody" mentality that we got in the begining of the book we get a sweet side of him. In the end of chapter 11, Holden explains that you shouldnt kidd anyone even if they deserve to be kidded to. As the book goes on you can see the "real" side of Holden. He's begining to understand that thinking about the duck and where it goes wont benefit him and where he goes.
"She was busy looking around for Peter Lorre to show up, I guess." (page 72) When Holden was dancing with the girl he met, he was always trying to strike up conversation. But, every time she seemed to "busy" to answer his question. The only conversation she stroke up was about Peter Lorre, some kind of movie star. Since, Holden doesn't care for movies, he could care less for Peter Lorre, which that girl was very interested about when seeing buying a newspaper. Most people in this world get excited when seeing a celebrity doing normal things. Like my best friend, once was walking down the street with her high school and she saw Jayden Smith, she got very starstruck, she almost forgot she was near the road. The funny thing was, she wasn't even crazy for him in the first place. The idea of seeing a "star", engages us so much, either we like them or hate them, we still all get starstruck. With Holden, he doesn't seem interested about being starstruck or seeing "stars", that's why he didn't have much to talk about with this girl.
ReplyDeletePAMELA YIADOM
ReplyDeleteAfter the dance with Bernice -page 73.
The line that stood out to me was "I told them my name was Jim Steele, just for the hell of it." This line stands out to me because it tells us even more worse stuff about poor Holden. This line really shocks me because it's proves that he lies for the fun of it. So lying to him is fun?. Wow, this tells us what a phony Holden is himself. And yes people do lie, sometimes because their bored.
I agree. I feel like all of his lies are going to build up until he literally drowns in them. I also feel bad because he like can't stop himself
DeleteI also agree that Holden is a phony himself. He is always talking about how other people are corny but he doesn't realize that all the lies he tells makes him just as bad. It makes it hard for us to believe that he is real and not pretending to be someone else. For example, when Holden mentions taking his sister to see a movie, it is a little confusing because he constantly tells us that he hates movies. Since his actions don't support his words, it makes him seem fake.
Delete"The girls I like best are the ones I never feel much like kidding." (Pg.78)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is important because it shows him trying to be mature and present a serious side of himself. Usually he likes to seek attention and likes to impress those he encounters. He is saying here that he would rather be truthful around girls he actually likes. This is an interesting aspect of someone who is a constant liar. It would seem that kidding is a defense, especially from adult questioning. Holden is inclined to be sincere with those whom he would have admire and like him just for himself.
I agree with you completely. The quote does show a sign of maturity from Holden and a different side of him and i do agree that it seems like a shield for Holden.
DeleteI completely agree with you. I think that Holden kids and lies to people because he thinks he cant trust them, but I think the people he kids with less, like Jane, are the people he really trusts and likes, and isn't afraid to open up to.
Delete"'Hey-how old are you, anyhow?' That annoyed me, for some reason. 'Oh, Christ. Don't spoil it,' I said. 'I'm twelve, for Chrissake. I'm big for my age.'"
ReplyDeleteI think this line is significant for a few reasons. First of all, it made me realize how strange it is that Holden is hanging out by himself in a nightclub inside of a hotel late at night, with probably no other people his age. I think that Holden really is intellectually very mature and intelligent for his age. Also, when he says "don't spoil it" to the lady after she asked how old he was shows that he is stuck in this age where he wants to do what adults do, but he doesn't quite have the sense of responsibility or the mental capacity. Even though this book was written in the fifties, and maybe we aren't going to be hanging out in the Lavender Room, I think that this feeling of being judged for being "too young" is universal to teenagers.
I really agree. I feel like he also is always trying to act older than he is. I think that this is a common theme throughout the book, like when he's trying to talk to Faith. He's taking his lying and using it as a way to explore this older way of life, where he has more freedom to do as he pleases.
Delete"I was half in love with her by the time we sat down. "
ReplyDeleteI think Holden does like women a lot more than men. I feel like it's easier for him to lie to women. I don't think he even means to lie to them but it's so easy for him that it just flows out of his mouth. I believe it's because he's more nervous around them and he doesn't want them to know about who he reall is.
I completely agree with you and how Holden really does like women more than men. The fact that he danced with Bernice for that time made him in love with her really shows that he's more open to women then men. And like you said, even though he lies to Bernice, he cant really express himself truly, but the fact he's expressing himself at all is important too.
Delete"Oh, Christ. Don't spoil it," I said. "I'm twelve, for Chrissake. I'm big for my age." Pg. 72
ReplyDeleteIn this scene, Holden gets annoyed because the blond girl that he met in the lobby of the hotel asked him how old he was. I think this upset Holden because he wanted to be treated like an adult. I feel like part of the reason why Holden calls other people corny or a moron is because they don't take him seriously. This makes me wonder if Holden is searching for respect. I think he feels uncomfortable being himself because he doesn’t think that he can meet the expectations that society imposes.
"..She was really a moron. But what a dancer. I could hardly stop myself from sort of giving her a kiss on the top of her dopey head-you know-right where the part is, and all. She got sore when I did it.' pg 72
ReplyDeleteThis passage stook out to me because it shows Holden's affection and how small things can move him. Since Bernice was such a great dancer, Holden was pretty much thunderstruck by her. I also think this is how Holden really would want to be, not so affection, but like normal and showing emotion more.
On page 77, it says "I almost was once in a movie short, but I changed my mind at the last minute. I figure that anybody that hates the movies as much as I do, I'd be phony if I let them stick me in a movie short."
ReplyDeleteTo me this quote was really significant because throughout the book he has gone on and on about all of the things that he hates and he never really wants anything to do with them. One of the main things that he hated was "phonies." He called one of the most important people to him (D.B.) a prostitute because he hated the idea of his brother writing something that he didn't like writing just for the money. He is always judging people but at the same time he hates being judged. There are some cases where he can "dish it out but he can't take it." In this case it was more that he was scared to be what he despised. It seemed that he cared about this part of his image. It was like if he became a "phony" he would become all that he hated. And not wanting to be any part of that scared him. He couldn't be a phony.
I completely agree with you! I think Holden is a really hypocritical person because he always says one thing and does another. I think your analysis was spot on when you said that "he couldn't be a phony" because it probably would scare him. I think he is so focused on not becoming a phony that, in fact, he living the reality of his shame. I kind of missed this sentence (or I just don't remember reading it :p) but, I think it is very interesting how Holden's image really impacts him as a whole.
Delete"I just liked the way she looked, that's all."
ReplyDeleteHolden reminds me of an extremely close friend of mine. When she discusses quite personal matters, such as rejection after an audition, or fights with her sister, she ends with a "whatever". It seems less of a lie to her friends about how she is feeling or affected, and more of a lie to herself. A lie that she doesn't have to deal with emotions that make her vulnerable. Throughout the course of this book, we experience all of Holden's brainwork. It is quickly made obvious to us that Holden is, to put it simply, really into Jane. He genuinely likes this girl. But he can't seem to put two and two together and come to this conclusion. Similar to my friend, he pushes his feelings for her away with statements such as "I just liked the way she looked, that's all.", shown above. I'm sure many of my classmates have had experiences with people like Holden or my friend, and i see now that these people aren't trying to give their audience an act of emotional immunity. They ignore these expository emotions and present events and facts alone, leaving us to analyze and understand the consequence and meaning of their thoughts.
I just want to apologize, I had a much better post but as I was finishing it my computer decided to stop working, reconfigure windows, and shut down so it is sadly, lost.
On page 89 Holden talked about how him and Allie used to take phoebe to the park. This stood out to me because I noticed his memories about Allie and Phoebe were very vivid. He remembered everything that happened and everything that was said. It seems like he only have vivid memories of the ones he truly loves like Allie and phoebe. He never tells us about his memories with his parents or D.B. Another person who he tells us a lot about and in great detail is Jane. He has many memories of her.
ReplyDelete"'Would any of you girls care to dance?' I didn't ask them crudely or anything. Very suave, in fact." (Pg 70)
ReplyDeleteThere are two main points I want to prove with the scene this quote is from. First of all, you can really tell what Holden thinks of himself as. He thinks he's this super masculine, amazing, macho guy. Throughout the story, you can tell that he thinks he's hot. Whether or not that's true, Holden has created a world of fantasies around himself.
Also you can tell that Holden is very driven by attraction. I feel like we are reading way too into this. I don't think there is some deep hidden meaning for his eagerness towards women. I think he just finds them pretty. He's tripping over himself, acting older and "suave", just to impress older women.
" The girls I like the best are the ones I never feel much like kidding."
ReplyDeleteThis qoute stood out to me because usually Holden lies to everyone. Know he's telling us, the readers who he doesnt want to tell his whole life sory to, that he doesnt want to lie to everyone. Especially the ones he likes. I think that because Holden got kicked out of Pencey, maybe he's trying to change to become a better person, and a good, maybe, truthful one. My question to that is why did he want to leave Pencey in order to do so? This quote relates to the real world because usually people who are bad people, criminals for example, want to change because they dont want to be the person that they used to be, for example when they committed a crime.
"But I certainly didn't mind shooting the crap with old Pheobe for a while. You should of seen her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole damn life"
ReplyDelete-pg. 87
I liked this quote because it was really showing how much Holden really cared about his siblings, and it also shows a affectionate, honest side of him. I noticed that through out the book so far you never see Holden bash one of his siblings. I mean he says D.B is a prostitute in chapter 1 but other than that he always speaks of his siblings so fondly. He says that Allie was one of the smartest most talented kids he knew and he loves his brother's writing and after this quote he talks about how great his sister is. I know I do that as well, although i may make fun of my sisters I deep down in my heart I know that they are talented and smart and beautiful. Its just that Holden doesn't make fun of his siblings like he does with other people.
I thought the exact same thing. I think that he has a softspot for childhood and innocence and maybe he wishes that he could go back to being childish and innocent where he didn't have any worrties or issues like he does now.
Delete“The one thing I hate…” (p. 87) This line stood out to me because he has probably talked about something he hated at least once in every chapter so far, and this is the tenth chapter. He obviously hates a lot of things, and it seems like its not even that important what it is anymore, because he seems to hate everything, and he never tells you why, or goes into specifics. This line also stood out to me, because he said “the one thing” and clearly so far, going to bed before your tired (what he was talking about), is definitely not to the only thing he hates. Holden seems like a very resentful and pessimistic person, and I think all of these things that Holden hates, is definitely helping to form that idea of him.
ReplyDelete"You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole life." (pg. 87 big book)
ReplyDeleteHolden always has this caring tone when he talks about his younger siblings. He seems to honestly deeply care for each of his siblings. He seems to care less about D.B because he is older and "being a prostitute" in Hollywood but he raves about his younger siblings. I think this goes with the theme of Holden liking innocence and old memories. A trait he slightly shows with his reaction to Stradlater and Jane going out together. I think Holden admires innocence and children because he thinks that they aren't phony because they don't need to impress other people unlike kids his age. Little kids do what they want and be who they want to be and I think this is a trait Holden wishes everybody showed and a trait that he wished that he could emulate.
"All of a sudden, on my way out to the lobby, I got old Jane Gallagher on the brain again," (p.76).
ReplyDeleteI feel like Jane was, and still is a very important part of Holden's life. She's really the only person, besides his brother Alllie, that Holden expresses deep emotions about. For most people, he simply puts them of as phony's or morons, yet with Jane, he recalls special memories together, and you can really tell that he isn't lying to the reader. But earlier, at Pencey Prep, when Holden has the chance to say hello to her, he doesn't. This must be because he has such good memories with her, and doesn't want to spoil them with an unpredictable scenario. It is also true that throughout the book, Holden seems very interested in all the women he meets, although he expresses the most sincere feelings when talking or thinking about Jane Gallagher.
"you should see her..." pg 67
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because again, Holden is alone, and he starts thinking about his sister. Holden hasn't explained until this point how much he loves and respects his sister. this is important because it shows that his sister is someone that he actually loves and respects for a change. he seems to be very much like his sister, and she fits the perfect persona of all the characteristics he actually likes in a person. I enjoyed the way he described her too, i thought it was very well written.
I agree I think that Phoebe and Jane are some of the only people in the world he actually likes and trusts which maybe goes back to what we said in class about him trusting women and girls more than men.
Delete"She was the only one, outside my family, that I ever showed Allie's baseball mitt to, with all the poems written on it." p. 77
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it showed that Jane was someone Holden really opened up to. It also cleared up more of the reason he felt so attached to her and couldn't stop thinking about her all the time. He loved Allie so much and his death had a huge impact on his life. The baseball mitt was something personal and special to Holden, and since he rarely even lets people see when he's having any emotion, the fact that he showed that to Jane proved that he really trusted her and that she was one of the only people in the world, basically, who he trusted and opened up to. That is why I think this line is extremely important to his relationship and connection to Jane.
I agree with this because in the book you can really see how Jane and Holden connect. Holden memorizes every single detail about her which shows how much he cares about her. He doesn't open up to many people but when he does you get to see the real side of him which seems to be like a nice, compassionate person.
Delete"I was almost once in a movie short, but I changed my mind at the last minute, I figured that anybody that hates movies as much as I do, I'd be a phony if I let them stick me in a movie short." Page 77.
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote is significant because it shows how Holden is holding himself back from success. He has the chance to be in a movie but turns it down because he says it's too phony. I think what he really means by saying that it's phony is that he's afraid of becoming like everybody else. He's afraid of people seeing him in a bad way. I think that Holden has this view on people about how they're so fake when the fact is their normal but Holden doesn't see that he just sees stuff in a very teenager way. Meaning that that little things annoy him and he can't stand fake people. I think that is all part of being a teenager. Almost everybody has something they can't stand, nobody loves everything. Holden is holding himself back from the things he could be, out of fear.
"The only trouble is, she's a little too affectionate sometimes. She's very emotional, for a child." -pg. 68
ReplyDeleteI thought that this quote was quite interesting because when Holden talks about Phoebe, Phoebe is a little girl. All kids and toddlers are very emotional and for Holden to say that when he is especially observant in detail, raises the question: was Holden unemotional as a child or did something happen in his life that caused him to be as unemotional as he is now? In my opinion, Holden is trying to shield his sister away from the harsh reality that is the world. I really believe that Holden was emotional and expressed himself as a child , but now he probably feels like he doesn't want Phoebe to experience the "thing" that changed him into a disclosed and introverted person.
"You never even worried with Jane whether your hand was sweaty or not. All you knew was, you were happy. You really were." (Pg-79)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is very significant it shows that Holden can be affectionate and does care about someone. This quote shows how Holden felt about Jane and how comfortable he felt around her. Holden is very socially awkward but this quote shows that Holden can be normal as well. This quote shows another side of Holden that's beginning to appear.
"The only trouble is.. she's a little too affectionate sometimes. She's very emotional, for a child."
ReplyDelete(Pg.68)
When I first read this I thought, why would Holden say this?, Was he an unemotional child when he was younger?. The reason was because we all know all toddlers and younger children are very emotional, so for Holden to say "she is far too emotional for a child..." it made me think that this is a significant moment and it means something.