Post your responses here! Remember: Choose an actual line from the text. Use the text to reflect on the world and human nature. There's no right answers here. The point is to use this writing to push your thinking forward. Ask questions! Wonder about things. Look closely at the text. Respond to someone else's response. This blog will be graded out of 5 points. Sunday, October 21, 2012
G-Band: Chapters 18-20
Post your responses here! Remember: Choose an actual line from the text. Use the text to reflect on the world and human nature. There's no right answers here. The point is to use this writing to push your thinking forward. Ask questions! Wonder about things. Look closely at the text. Respond to someone else's response. This blog will be graded out of 5 points. 
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"When I left the skating rink I felt sort of hungry,so I went in this drugstore and had a swiss cheese sandwich and a malted, and then I went in a phone booth. I thought maybe I might give old Jane another buzz and see if she was home yet, I mean I had the evening free,and I thought I'd giver her a buzz and see if she was home yet."
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me because, it showed how much Holden cared about Jane, he had the whole evening free and so many things he could've done, but he decided on buzzing Jane and seeing if she was home yet. This quote also stood out to me because it made me think, does Holden only want to hang out with people he already knew for a long period of time,rather than people he just met?. I thought of this because Holden doesn't like change, I noticed that by the way he talks about people.
I disagree with you, I think that Holden had nothing to do so he thought about calling Jane. I mean, I do agree that he cares about Jane but I also think that he had absolutely nothing to do or nobody to be with so he thought about Jane. Also, your last analysis is interesting. I never thought about it that way. Maybe Holden doesn't like new people because he thinks that they're phony but people he's known are different. Or also he might like people he's known for longer just because it reminds him of his childhood slightly and he misses that.
DeleteI agree that this might show that Holden doesn't like change, but I also think that Holden doesn't know what to do anymore. He just wants someone to talk to, because he even calls Sally later in the chapter.
Delete"I don't know too much poetry, but I do know it'd drive me crazy if I had to be in the Army and be with a bunch of guys like Ackley and Stradlater and old Maurice all the time, marching around with them and all." -page 146
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me. I didn't realize that Holden was so against them. I mean it's also funny in way because Holden is comparing fighting in a war with marching around with three guys. That is so extreme! Is Holden that against "phonies"? Also Holden said that D.B fought in a war for four years. Maybe Holden just doesn't want to be part of an army because D.B was part of one. I think that Holden just doesn't want to do things that his brother does because he's afraid of becoming phony. Or maybe that in the army he'll meet more people that are phony. I just think all around Holden is afraid of meeting phonies. Holden needs to stop judging people so much and try to make friends. He's really lonely and making friends would probably make him happy. Also I keep wondering and wondering why Holden judges people so much and thinks that they're phony, WHY?
I thought about this, and I agree and disagree about Holden being afraid of phonies. I think that he classifies people as phonies so he won't have to open up to them, but he's not scared of phonies themselves. He's actually quite confident with them, like when he yellss "Sleep tight, ya morons!" when he leaves Pencey on pg. 52.
Delete"Hey, I got a flit for you," I told him. "At the end of the bar. Don't look now. I've been saving him for ya." "Very funny," he said. "Same old Caulfield. When are you going to grow up?"
ReplyDeleteI think this quote is significent because it shows Holden trying to return to his childhood or earlier years, only to be rejected. He usually strays away from doing this because he doesn't want to taint his memories, like when he ended up not going inside the Museum of Natural History, and when he thinks about calling Jane up but never actually does. He genuinely likes Luce, which is strange because he usually hates most of the men in his life, and he has very fond memories of him and really admires Luce as well. But Luce just completely shuts him down, telling him to grow up and acts completely almost phony towards Holden. This also shows Holden is trying to be a child through his teenage years, because he was deprived of his own. But it's also ironic because Holden is literally sitiing at a bar while he's trying to live out his childhood. He is getting drunk as he does so, which makes me think about Holden's relationship with adulthood as well.
The last sentence in your response really made me think. It really does make me think about Holden's relationship with adulthood. His relationship with childhood, is understandable, you can see he didn't have much of a childhood and he wants to live it out more but he doesn't. His relationship with adulthood is more complex, he doesn't want to grow up and be like the people he knows, but on the other hand, he always talks about sex or drinks and smokes, which are adult things.
Delete"I knew she wouldn't let old Phoebe come to my goddam funeral because she was only a little kid. That was the only good part." (page 155)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because he wasn't thinking much of himself when he was thinking of dying. He was thinking of Phoebe and her feelings. Holden was remembering Allie's death and his tombstone. Holden wasn't at Allie's funeral because he hurt his hand smashing a glass window. I feel as if Holden wouldn't want Phoebe to find out he died. Maybe he doesn't want her to be like him in the matter of finding out his brother was dead. Holden might want to preserve Phoebe's innocence. And finding out about his death, in his opinion, would break it. Holden seems to always think of his death. For example: he thought of committing suicide in the hotel, he always pretends he gets shot in the guts, or thinking of his funeral from dying of freezing to death.
I agree with Holden wanting to preserve Phoebe's innocence, however, I don't think he necessarily wants to kill himself. I believe it was the events such as Allie's death questioned him on his viewpoint of death.
Delete" I couldn't stand it. I know it's only his body and all that's in the cemetery, and his soul's in Heaven and all that crap, but I couldn't stand it anyway. I just wish he wasn't there. You didn't know him. If you'd known him, you'd know what I mean. It's not too bad when the sun's out, but the sun only comes out when it feels like coming out." Chapter 20
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it reminded me of how Holden always brought up Allie whenever he got depressed. This time Holden was in the lagoon at Central Park, however, there were no ducks in sight. You can tell this made Holden upset because it brought back memories of Allie's funeral. It even made him think of a funeral he would have. Why does Holden bring back Allie whenever he gets depressed? The reason, I believe, is he saw a better version of himself in Allie and this makes him assume he should have died instead of Allie. A part of the quote that also stood out to me was " It's not too bad when the sun comes out, but the sun only comes out when it feels like coming out." I believe Holden is referring himself to the sun. It tells us, the readers, that Holden only reveals himself when he wants to talk about his emotions. It shows you that he's very self conscious and anti-social.
I thought your analysis was great, but I agree and disagree with it. I think Holden probably felt like he should have died instead of Allie, but I think he just thought that Allie didn't do anything wrong to deserve to die. And I think that also refers to the comment he made about the sun coming out when it wants to. I think Holden thinks that good things only happens when it feels like happening or certain scenarios only happen when it wants to happen. Holden probably feels no sense of control over his life and is fed up with the way "his reality" seems to be running.
DeleteI also agree and disagree with your analysis. I think Holden thinks about Allie when he's deppressed because when he's around people, he's thinking about so many other things. Who's a phony, what girls he thinks are hot, etc. So when Holden brings up Allie because he's alone. He uses judgement of others as a wall to hide behind all the sadness and stress he should be feeling.
Delete"I don't see how D.B. could hate the Army and war all so much and still like a phony war book like that."-pg. 141
ReplyDeleteI think this quote is significant because Holden describes D.B. in a very hypocritical state of mind. Holden states, "He said the Army was practically as full of bastards as the Nazis were."-pg. 140 Then, D.B. is recommending Holden to read a war book! I believe this is where Holden acquires his hypocritical mind-frame. Maybe, since he was younger when this event took place, Holden looked up to his brother and wanted to act just like him. Though, as he started to grow older, he probably copied his brothers perspectives. I also feel like he copies this hypocritical and passive guy from "Old Lunce". Holden regards Lunce as a very "smart as hell" guy. Lunce was a real jerk to Holden, but Holden seemed to shake his rudeness off. Holden states that, "...the trouble with these intellectual guys is that they never want to discuss anything serious unless they FEEL like it."-pg. 144 This stuck with me because I noticed that Holden sort of... developed his personality and pessimist traits by taking them from the people that affect his life to a great extent.
Because Holden is a "Unreliable narrator" we cannot believe everything he says. The fact of the matter is, Holden believes his brother to be a bit of a phony and a hypocrite. But if we look at it from another perspective we see that Holden is just a bit narrow minded. I do not believe that either of these answers are correct, but a combination of the both of them.
DeletePage 144: "How's your sex life?"
ReplyDeleteI found this quote really strange because Holden isn't usually a person to constantly be thinking about sex, yet every question he asks when he is talking to Luce has to do with sex. Although Holden does sometimes talk about sex, call himself "sexy," and order a prostitute, he never really has a commited relationship with a girl long enough to have sex. Maybe he gets nervous around talking to someone who is so much older than him as Luce is, and brings it up because he is nervous. He also lies about his own sex life, saying that he actually has a sex life. Many factors could have led to this strange behavior from Holden, such as nervousness, curiosity, showing off, or acting older. Either way, I still hold on to my belief that Holden need's someone to talk to, and with this conversation he had with Luce, it look's like a girlfriend could do him some good.
Wow. I didn't even think about that. I agree and disagree. I think Holden felt insecure about himself and his sex life. He knows that most guys have gone a lot farther than he has and wants to look cooler and older (much like when he says his name is John Steele). Luce is everything Holden wants people to see him as. Luce is swav, sexy, experienced, mature, and older. Holden does not want to BE Luce he just wishes people say him the way he sees Luce. Holden is always trying to be some sort of person that he is not. But why?
DeleteI agree that he gets nervous when he is around girls and he gets the opportunity to have sex. However, I disagree with both of you about him being nervous around Luce and him wanting to be Luce. I think that does get nervous but in that moment I think he hated how Luce was being such a hypocrite. Holden explained how Luce is always giving sex talks and acting like a big shot but won't let anyone else talk because he is afraid they'll say something smarter than him. I think Holden envies Luce's "sex knowledge," but I think he also doesn't and never would want to be Luce. Then again, I agree with you, Stephen, that he needs someone to talk to. This connects to how he called Sally later even though he hates her and how he called Luce to come have a drink.
DeleteI think this quote is really interesting because sex is something that comes up a lot in the book, but we haven't discussed it too much. I agree that Holden may have been asking Luce about his sex life to seem cool or older, but really it just makes him look more immature in my opinion. Luce sees Holden as very immature (like when he says "When are you going to grow up?" on page 144). It's probably obvious to him that Holden is a virgin. I don't think that Holden envies Luce, I think that he is legitimately curious about his sex life and just about sex in general; as it is a very complicated topic that I don't believe he understands very well. This relates to how Holden is sort of "stuck" in adolescence: he wants to drink, smoke, and have sex, but he also misses his childhood and dreads growing up.
Delete"It was awful. It rained on his lousy tombstone, and it rained on the grass on his stomach. It rained all over the place. All the visitors that were visiting the cemetery started running like hell over to their cars. That's what nearly drove me crazy. All the visitors could get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go someplace nice for dinner - everybody except Allie. I couldn't stand it. I know it's only his body and all that's in the cemetery, and his soul's in Heaven and all that crap, but I couldn't stand it anyway. I just wished he wasn't there."
ReplyDeleteI feel like when Holden visits Allie's tomb he feels worse and worse. I also feel like Holden would do anything to trade places with Allie. He also clearly hates the idea of a cemetery because he feels like Allie will never find peace. It's not fair that the living can run from the rain or from noise or anything that scares them mean while all Allie can do is lie there as life goes on not moving.I think it scares Holden because when Holden dies he doesn't want to be in a cemetery where everything is so open. I just think that Holden believes he can feel everything that Allie feels an it's really sweet because Holden wants the best for Allie even though Allie is gone. This is good and bad. It's good because we see a side of Holden that actually cares about something. A side of Holden with emotions. The bad part is that Holden isn't able to let Allie go which is what keeps him from being happy. Allie makes holden depressed.
Haha my quote was pretty much like yours. I agree with you on how Holden wishes he could trade places with Allie, and that Allie couldn't find peace in a place like that. But I think Allie makes Holden reflect on his anger and depression, and thats what makes it hard for him to express himself.
Delete"When the weather's nice, my parents go out quite frequently and stick a bunch of flowers on old Allie's grace...I certainly dont enjoy seeing him in that crazy cemetery,...It wasnt too bad when the sun was out, but twice-twice-we were there when it started to rain. It was awful. It rained on his lousy tombstone, and it rained on the grass on his stomach...All the visitors that were visiting the cemetery started running like hell over to their cars. Thats what nearly drove me crazy. All the visitors could get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go someplace nice for dinner-everybody except Allie." pg. 155-156
ReplyDeleteThis passage stook out to me the most. I've heard people dealing with grief in different ways- denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Most people follow this in an order. Sometimes some stages are skipped. I think for Holden he went straight to anger and depression. He's angry at the simple people at the cemetery for running to their cars, and he's angry because Allie can't go either. And mentioned multiple times, it's obvious he's depressed. I think Holden doesnt understand how to deal with his emotions, and he often takes it out in the "wrong" way. His red hunting cap is his protection. When my grandparents died, my mother was depressed for so long, and she watched the news all the time, and cleaned. Although I didnt like the cleaning and news-watching, I think her way of dealing with her parents dying is better than Holden dealing with his brother's death. I think Holden needs to open and reflect on himself on what truly makes him depressed and angry about Allie's death.
"Anyway, they fell in love right away, on account of they're both in love with Charles Dickens and all" (Page 138)
ReplyDeleteHolden hate how corny their life is. They meet, they have something in common they fall in love. I think Holden envies their perfect lives. Although they face challenges, it always ends happily. Holden is scared that his life story won't end "they all loved happily ever after". He wants to not have to worry about what he does or how he lives his life because it will all work out okay. He has just been kicked out of a third boarding school, he has no ambition, and he needs some sort of magical poof to make everything okay. Its ironic though. Holdens life is a story, a story in a book, that we are reading. It probably will have some sort of happy ending, where Holden sees a light for a brighter future and everything is going to be okay. We know this, or suspect it, but Holden does not. We would live our lives so much differently if we knew nothing could go terribly wrong. A world like that would be such a mess! Although, Holden needs to have hope. Holden needs to believe that HE can solve his own problems.
I completely agree with what you're saying. I like what you said about him being scared that his life will not have a happy ending/happily ever after. I think the reason why Holden hates those corny love stories is because he is jealous of that fact that everything ends up working itself out. It seems that Holden doesn't have any faith that that would ever happen for him.
DeleteI completely agree with you. I noticed that Holden was jealous of the movie characters, and their perfect lives. He wishes he had that, and wishes that there was some hope that he will be okay, because right now he seems to have none. He wishes that he could just have their perfect life and never have to worry about anything. Which is also why he hates the characters so much, and thinks they're phony. He thinks its impossible to have a happy ending, so when it happens in movies its phony, and gives people false hope.
Delete"I showed her my goddam red hunting hat, and she liked it. She made me put it on before I went out, because my hair was still pretty wet. She was all right." PAGE 153
ReplyDelete"Then something terrible happened just as I got in the park. I dropped old Phoebe's record. It broke into about fifty pieces. It was in a big envelope and all, but it broke anyway. I damn near cried, it made me feel so terrible but all I did was, I took the pieces out of the envelope and put them in my coat pocket. They weren't any good for anything, but I didn't feel like just throwing them away." PAGE 154
These two quotes were significant because when he was drunk, Holden seemed to become a lot more emotional than he usually would be. Throughout the book he comes off as very reserved. In this moment he gets drunk so he can temporarily escape his problems and worries. He wants to escape his reality and his feelings and just get drunk. The drinking strangely brought out emotions and behavior that he would most likely be ashamed to show if he wasn't drunk. When he talks about how he thinks the coat check girl is "all right," he acts very vulnerable. It is almost as if he wants someone to take care of him and he then appreciates her "concern" for his health.
When the record breaks it brings out even more vulnerability. He suddenly just starts sobbing and he is so worried about not being able to give it to Phoebe and his relationship with her that after thinking about her a lot, he even decides to go to his house to say hi to her and talk to her. This just goes to show how much he loves and cares about his sister and her happiness. He wants the best for her and it seems like he usually wants the worst for himself. Because of this, it brings out the best in him and he becomes very kind and giving. Still he is unable to realize that he deserves more.
“When are you going to grow up.”
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because Carl Luce told this to Holden about 5 times at the bar. This is the only time in the story that someone tells Holden to his face that he is immature. I also feel like Holden admires Carl. He keeps saying how intelligent he is and how he has a great sex life. When Carl calls Holden immature Holden admits to it. If Holden was talking
to anyone else he would have disagreed.
I agree with you and I think through the book he keeps wanting to stay younger, when most people want him to grow up.
DeleteI agree that Holden admires Carl Luce. I think this is because Carl is willing to tell him the truth even when he doesn't want to hear it. I also think that he looks up to Carl Luce as a role model which is why he isn't ashamed of asking him many questions.
DeleteHolden is definitely start-struck in a way when is comes to Luce. He gets so excited that he can't control his words and doesn't stick up for himself because it would mean contradicting this idolish symbol.
Delete"'Yeah. Wanna talka Sally. Very important. Put her on.''Sally's asleep, young man. Call her tomorrow. Good night.' 'Wake 'er up! Wake 'er up, hey. Attaboy." P.150
ReplyDeleteThis quote is significant, because Holden likes to get what he wants. For example, when Holden hangs out with Sally, he tells her to move with him to Maine and live in the woods away from everyone. Once Sally said no, he was depressed and angry at Sally and didn't like her anymore. I think Holden has serious problems, especially when he is drunk. In this page, you could clearly see that Holden is really drunk and wants to talk to Sally. He uses alcohol as an excuse to do things he knows he shouldn't do. He also uses it to escape reality. He doesn't want to live his regular life because he knows he will not succeed. He wants to live a fake life.
I agree with you, this also shows how nieve and ignorant Holden is about alchohol and sex. He's use to making excuses for himself and he's not learning from any of his mistakes.
Delete"These intellectual guys dont like to have an intellectual conversation with you unless they're running the whole thing. They always want you to shut up when they shut up..." page 147.
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of alot of things. It reminded me of the conversation we had in class about how he treats guys differently than girls. In this passage its the total opposite of what we said in class. It seems like he hate guys like that like being in control and taking advantage of everyone else. This is one of the few things i agree with Holden on. Most people in the world hate people who are bossy or try to always be the leader of things. This also shows part of Holden's personality. We can see he's a leader not a follower and this sometimes can be a bad thing. He doesnt like following or listening to anyone so maybe thats the reason he is where he is today. It also add's to the list of the things that irritate Holden the most. Considering the fact that they we're talking about sex, you would think that Holden would have acted differently towards the situation. I wonder whats going on in his head...
I agree with you about Holden hating those type of guys. And how this shows a part of Holden's personality, it does in fact. But I disagree on the fact that you said sometimes being a leader could be a bad thing. What do you mean by that?
Delete"He said you could turn into one practically overnight, if you had the traits and all. He used to scare the hell out of us." p. 143
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because what Luce was doing reminded me of something Holden would do. He is always making up stories and lies when he's bored, and that seems like the same thing Holden does when he's bored. I think that is one of the main reasons why Holden likes and doesn't like Luce. He likes him because he is intellectual and can have intellectual conversations and since Holden sees himself as someone who's smarter and more intellectual than most people, even though he may not be, I think that is a trait that he sees in both of them and likes. But at the same time, there are traits in Luce that Holden doesn't like, but also shares, like the fact that he lies a lot and he often doesn't want to talk about certain things. Holden does both. I think that a lot of the time people look for traits that they like about themselves in other people, and share with them, which makes them like the person, but when they also share other traits and habits that you're not happy about, it might result in liking them less.
PAMELA YIADOM
ReplyDelete"I guess I just wasn't in the right mood" page.137
This line stood out to me because it made me realize something that may not be important to every one else, but important to me in Holden's case. And that is that, ever since I read this book I thought Holden did every thing out of boredom, being sad or mad or even happy sometimes. I don't know why I felt like that but I did because of the things he always say. And this line made me realize that oh, he doesn't base stuff on boredom, he base stuff on the type of mood he's in. I always considered Holden not a human, until this little detail came in, and change my mind. I wonder why?
This mood also seems to affect how he perceives his surroundings. "I can't see anything religious or pretty, for God's sake, about a bunch of actors carrying crucifixes all over the stage." (page 137) It seems to be as much a product of his mood as his general outlook and beliefs. It makes me wonder- if he was in a good mood ,would his observations
Deleteabout religion be different?
I also think that his "moods" hold him back from experiencing life. I mean, they often seem driven by fear. I feel like when he says he's not in the mood to call Jane, he's really saying that he's afraid.
Delete“I didn’t say anything. I was sort of afraid he’d get up and leave on me if I didn’t shut up. So all I did was, I ordered another drink. I felt like getting stinking drunk.” (p. 188)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me in the book because I think it is just reiterating what has been shown over and over again. Holden is incredibly lonely, and will do anything for companionship. He will pay for it, he will break the law for it, he will be phony to get it, and in this case, and in others, he will hang out with people he just doesn’t like to get it. Holden has a need to say something about everything. Even if it means that we will get beaten to a pulp for saying it. So when Luce tells him he will leave if he stops talking, and Holden stops talking it shows how desperate he is. He will do anything not to be alone. This guy is obviously just making him feel worse about himself than he already does, and yet he is not only not defending himself, but also sitting there letting him do it. Sure no one likes to be lonely, or to feel alone, but for someone who goes to boarding school and seems to always be with people is alone time what Holden needs to get his life together? Or would it at least be better for him to be alone than with people who he doesn’t even like, and who don’t seem to like him very much? Why is being alone, for even just a night, such a scary thing?
"I took the pieces out of the envelope and put them in my coat pocket. They weren't any good for anything, but i didn't feel like just throwing them away."
ReplyDelete-Page 154
This quote stood out for me, not only does it reflect on Holden being a clumsy drunk, but it also shows us his softer, sentimental side. Holden, who on previous occasions has been known to throw things away that were useful , is hanging on to something thats not good at all. The difference is that this was a gift intended for his younger sister Phoebe. This reflects on his positive regard and love for Phoebe. She represents his innocence and aspirations. You can register the positive feelings that Holden applies to his sister, who in his mind represents all that is genuine and pure. This is in contrast to the hostility he displays for all sorts of strangers and friends who might have his better interest at heart.
i agree with what about Phoebe being innocent to him, but also she's probably one of the only ones who cares about him, and needs him. That's why he ends up going home because he needs her, to help keep him stable, mentally. in addition, he usually thinks about her, when he has no money, no place to go or is depressed, she's his last hope.
Delete"The part that got me was, there was a lady sitting next to me that cried throughout the whole goddamn picture. The phonier it got, the more she cried." (P 139)
ReplyDeleteI found Holden's reaction and interpretation of the lady's crying throughout the movie really interesting. Holden is so judgmental of everything and everybody that he doesn't stop and consider why these people are doing these annoying things.The reason people watch these romance movies in the first place is because they're 'hopeless romantics', and want these incredible things to happen for them. When he sees the lady crying, he realizes that he shares her desire to be happy. He just can't bring himself to put his faith into something like love, which he's not even sure exists. Because of this, he's always lying to people he doesn't know, and making every attempt to avoid being who he really is.
Your analyzation to the quote is similar to mine. In a way I do believe that Holden wishes that he had the happiness that these actors are trying to portray. Although, I know that Holden cannot be happy for others because he is in too deep with his unhappiness, that maybe he isn't able to see the brighter side of situations, but only the misereable, annoying ones. Holden is a very interesting charcater and narrator I just wonder, why does Holden surround himself with poeple that annoy him? Maybe the people that he says are annoying him, he wants to be like, or at least share a good moment in thir life,so that he knows there a reason to move on and not be stuck at the stage that hes at.
Delete"It's supposed to be as religious as hell, I know, and very pretty and all, but I can't see anything religious or pretty, for God's sake, about a bunch of actors carrying crucifixes all over the stage." Pg 137
ReplyDeleteI think this is interesting because it shows that Holden is a realist. While I realize that he gets carried away sometimes and has a big imagination, anything that serves as a symbol or supposed to be magical is not to him. He just doesn't see it. He's one of the people that will go to MoMa and look at one of those modern art pieces that's just a red wall and call it crap. He doesn't like when people (or as he knows them, phonies) make a big deal out of something that isn't that amazing. He doesn't see a musical and understand the characters. He thinks about the actors practicing over and over again, just to impress a bunch of phonies. This is interesting because it explains Holden's outlook on life, and explains a lot of his thoughts about phonies.
"What it was, it was partly frozen and partly not frozen. But I didn't see any ducks around." page 154
ReplyDelete"In the first place, I certainly don't enjoy seeing him in that crazy cemetery." page 155
These two quotes stood out to me because I thought it was interesting how Holden decided to go to the lagoon to see for himself where the ducks went. When he couldn't find any ducks, he started to think about Allie, and he expressed his frustration with his death. I think that these two lines are connected because Holden is wondering where the ducks go, and also, where did his brother go? He doesn't believe in afterlife because he's an atheist. Although he doesn't express his feelings about Allie's death, it has affected him and contributed to his depression more than he may have thought. I think that Holden is seeking closure, and that is why he visits the lagoon, yet he found nothing. Lastly, I think it may be significant that the lagoon is partly frozen and partly not. Maybe that could be a metaphor for Holden being sort of in between childhood and adulthood.
I liked this line too. I liked how he went to the pond or lagoon to see where the ducks went for himself. Its also, I think, its the first time tht Holden was really starting to express some kind of emotion towards Allie's death. Before you could tell that he got only sad but now Holden is expressing anger and strong emotion
DeleteI agree with everything you said. I too while reading it as connecting the ducks to Allie's death. I think he wants to know if the ducks die like how Allie died and if they didnt where do they go. I'm not sure if he really knows about death and if anybody really explained it to him, even though it would be hard to explain. I think the ducks refer to him moving on from Allie's death and finding a new home (life) of his own.
DeleteGreat observation, Coco! What else seems significant about the lagoon being partly frozen, partly not??
Delete"I guess I just wasn't in the right mood" page 137
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because Holden, throughout the story, constantly says that he "wasn't in the right mood" to do anything he wanted. This brought me to the conclusion that maybe Holden, getting kicked out of Pencey, Holdens third school, is really playing a toll on him. In the beginning of the story Holden tells us about all the cool pranks that he played on other people that "killed him" . It would bring so much joy to Holden when the people fell into the trap that he set for specifically for them . Now when Holen plays a prank, if he feels like it, it doesnt bring as much joy to him as it used to, for example on page 74, Holden tricked one of the girls he was dancing with into thinking that he just saw Gary Cooper. Although the result was what Holden wanted, he wasn't happy with the way it played out. Holden was sorry for what he did and wished he could take it back. That was one of the very few trickes that Holden played since he was kicked out of Pencey, and it didnt turn out like many of his other glorious pranks that he played in the past.I think that Holden is trying to find happiness that could direct him to the right road that he should be going down in order to be successful in life like many of his family members.Maybe he is feeling empty inside? I think that this quote relates to todays world because many people who aren't doing well in anything, while evryone else around them is succeed brings them to a state of depression, which Holden is in. It also leads them on a search to find that happiness that can re-direct their route, which I believe is exactly what Holden is trying to find/do.
"I thought maybe I might give old Jane another buzz and see if she was home yet. I mean I had the whole evening free, And I thought i'd gove her a buzz and take her dancing or something"
ReplyDelete-pg. 175
This line stood out to me because it was yet again Holden's display of affection toward Jane. But you can see that he doesnt agree with this affection toward Jane. You can see that he's so reluctant towards contacting her he's being so nanchalaunt about calling her or "giving her a buzz." Earlier in the book in chapter 16 he called her house and Jane's mother picked up, so he hung up. I think that he didn't hang up because it was her mother all though I cann see why thats awkward but i think that he was scared. I think he was scared to confront these feeling that e has for another person, I think he's scared to move out of his egotistic, narrsisistic bubble that he made himself confertable in.
I agree with this. I also think that Holden is scared to move out of his comfort zone and to accept things that he disliked in the past. He's so caught up in feeling dominant that you see how his opinions of things change. For example when he talks to the 3 woman in the bar back towards the beginning of the book you see that the woman don't want to hang out with him but he convinces himself that the woman are dumb that is why they don't act like they want to be around him.
Delete"the goddam picture started. It was so putrid I couldn't take my eyes off it." Page 138.
ReplyDeleteIf Holden doesn't like the movie why doesn't he just leave. Holden describes the picture as putrid: putrid means unpleasant or repulsive, yet Holden doesn't stop watching the picture. I think that this shows how Holden likes to cover up his true emotions with fake feelings. Anything that he think's the world could consider phony he consider's phony. Holden needs to learn to accept his true emotions or he'll always be in denial. A reason for why I think Holden didn't leave the theater was because the picture gave him hope. Later on in the text you see how the picture was a love story that had a happy ending for every character in the picture. I think that even though Holden acts like a tough person he just wants everyone and himself to be happy in the end and I think for him seeing this picture makes him think that he can have a happy ending in his life too. This feels relatable because I know personally that things like seeing my family or friends can cheer me up, if i'm having a bad day. It will make me think that the world is not such a bad place after all and that even if there are bad moments in life there will also be good moments too. I also think that a lot of people can also relate to Holden in another way and that way is that people like to cover up their true emotions. People do this because they're afraid that they'll get judged and this is exactly what Holden is doing. Holden is letting other people's views shape his views and what I mean by this is that many boys around his age probably wouldn't like the picture he saw, that's about love, so that might be a reason why he says that he doesn't like the picture. It could also be that his views on certain people have affected his views on thing in general.
"I was getting a little too personal. I realize that. But that was one of the annoying things about Luce. When we were at Whooton, he'd made you describe the most personal stuff that happened to you, but if you started asking him questions about himself, he got sore." Pg. 147
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it showed Holden actually putting some effort into socializing with other people. Holden usually does not like to talk with people because he thinks everyone that surrounds him is phony so it was surprising to see him engaged in the conversation he was having with Carl Luce. In this scene, Holden was very confused and uncomfortable when talking about sex. He tried to talk about a serious topic by bringing up Carl's sex life but this only made Carl think Holden was immature. Throughout the conversation, Carl constantly asked him when he was going to grow up because Holden kept bringing up many questions. It made him seem very childish and obnoxious. When placed in certain situations like this one, his reactions show us that he is not ready to grow up yet despite trying so hard to act like an adult. This quote gives insight into the real world because sometimes people try to grow up too fast and they can't relate to any adults or people older than them since they lack a lot of experience.
“I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery.” - page 155
ReplyDeleteI found this quote in the book to be interesting. After thinking about if for a while I think hes saying that even though he is dead he doesn’t want to be in a closed area. I think he is claustrophobic but in open areas. This could be the reason why he keeps getting kicked out of schools and doesn’t want to stay in his hotel room. It makes me wonder if something happened to him before while he was in a closed or confined area that made him like this, or does he just like to be out in the open. Throughout the book he never seems to stay in one area, and when he is in one area it is never for a long amount of time. In one day he moved from the school to a hotel to a bar then back to the hotel then to a different bar. I think he does this because he feels out of place and feels like he doesn’t belong because he is in the in between stage of child and adult.
"These intellectual guys don't like to have an intellectual conversation with you unless they're running the whole damn thing." p. 147
ReplyDeleteIn the conversation that leads up to this remark, Holden is pestering Luce about his sex life, and complaining about his own. Not once does a topic I, or most anyone, would call intellectual arises. But intellectual conversations are supposed to instigate debate, and be discussions of interesting topics, which each of the individuals within are informed of in some way. Sex definitely interests Holden, he's a "sexy" kind of person, and has had enough talks from Luce to be considered informed on the topic, and Holden has developed a very special view on the matter, quite different to Luce's. In any case, this combination would make a great intellectual talk, but the material is what is in question. Though I see the comparison, I am confused as to why Holden (Salinger) repeatedly refers to this as intellectual substance.
"The trouble with girls is, If they like a boy, no matter how big a bastard he is, they'll say he has an inferiority complex" (pg.176)
ReplyDeleteI think that Holden could be saying two things about girls roles. He could be saying that girls know what they're doing and they manipulate guys while knowing it. Or he is saying that the "phony" guys who girls date manipulate them into thinking that they're these nice, caring, sweet and compassionate guys when really they are "bastards" in his opinion.
I think that based on what I know of Holden he thinks the second option. He always feels worse for girls in a way that I think might be saying women are less smart or easier to manipulate because they are more innocent. But building on this I think that Holden wants girls to be more innocent than they actually are, for example with Jane. he associates her being with Stradlater as being less innocent so he is disgusted by it and hates Stradlater for it. He wants to think that girls are more innocent and that guys are manipulating them and that they don't realize it, but why? Why go through all the trouble? Maybe it is related to Phoebe being a girl?
I think that you pose some very good questions in the end of your response, regarding Holden's tend to, simply put, like girls more then guys. It could be because his sister Phoebe is a girl and he has such a close connection with her, but I suspect it is because Holden himself is a guy. He thinks he understands the mentality that guy's have, so when a guy acts "phony," Holden thinks he knows they are acting that way purposefully. Girls on the other hand, as you stated, Holden finds much more innocent, yet also "ignorant." He never once likes a girl because she is smart or an "intellectual." This may be because he cannot think from the mindset of a girl, therefore he doesn't understand their decisions or actions.
Delete"I dropped old Phoebe's record... I damn near cried, it made me feel so terrible, but all I did was, I took the pieces out of the envelope and put them in my coat pocket. They weren't good for anything, but I didn't feel like just throwing them away," (p.154).
ReplyDeleteI feel like this quote reveals a lot about Holden's personality and where he stands in life right now. Besides being extremely drunk, Holden is lonely, even with the crowds of New York City to keep him company. Phoebe is really one person, not in his memories, that Holden can count on for companionship. She's the only person Holden truly connects with, not including Allie. By dropping the record, Holden feels like he is letting his sister down, adding onto his current depressed, lonely state of mind. Yet, instead of moving on and leaving the broken, useless pieces on the ground, or simply throwing them out, he picks them up and puts them in his jacket pocket. This is a good example of how Holden has trouble letting go and moving on after his mistakes in life. Being an unreliable narrator, he hides this, but the reader can find moments where he doesn't want to let go, such as his childhood, or his old schools, or his dead brother Allie.
Oscar Belkin-Sessler
ReplyDeleteOctober 22, 2012
The Catcher in the Rye chapters 18-20
“Very funny,” he said. “Same old Caulfield. When are you going to grow up?
(PG. 144)
As soon as I read this I knew that the coming conversation was not to be a very friendly one. It seems that Carl is one of those people who feels that they must put themselves above others. At the first chance he gets, Carl creates a division between him and Holden. He wants to make it clear that him and Holden are not on the same level. If it were me I think this would tick me off quite a bit. For Holden I think he already knows that he comes off as immature and that’s the way he likes it. The only thing that Holden doesn’t like about this scenario is the fact that Carl has changed. Although is still intellectual and a bit snobbish he has changed. This is a lot like the museum. In the museum everything changes in your life and in everybody’s life, but the museum stays the same. Holden is the museum; everybody else is changing around him but is staying the same. I feel that Holden wants this changing and growing to stop. He liked it better when he was young, and D.B was home. I think that throughout this book Holden will have to except that things change and grow, and he will have to as well.
"You mean go to a psychoanalyst and all?" i said. That's what he told me i ought to do. His father was a psychoanalyst and all." (page 147)
ReplyDeleteThis quote was taken from the passage, when Holden was at a bar having a drink with an old friend who was older than Holden, Luce (Holden considered him as an intellectual). To me, this quote shows how he becomes more curious about analysis, and receiving a better understanding and some help on his problems. it also shows how Holden, knows he has issues , that he needs to go to someone and talk to, but he never adressed his problem clearly to himself. Holden later in the conversation learns that Luce's father "helped me to adjust myself to a certain extent" which connecting to Holden, gives you the idea of how being someone so smart,may also need some help.