"That kind of stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was kid. I can't stand it." pg. 193
This line really shocked me because Holden told us something about his childhood that seems really really personal. He says perverted stuff has happened a lot since he was kid which makes me think maybe he was abused or made felt uncomfortable. Is that why he maybe has problems trusting people? I mean in life when people go through certain situations like that they dont leaarn to trust people that easily. Also is that why Holden treats people like they are phony and he just doesn't like anyone? This line right here just opened up my eyes and amde understand Holden better and way differently than before maybe this is the reason why he is the way that he is and thats why it takes him a long time to be able to trust others.
I agree, maybe there is more to just Holden being mean and judging others. Maybe we just looked at him the wrong way. Most times when someone says or does something mean or has a unfriendly relationship we often think oh! Maybe something happened in her childhood. I do agree that something happened to Holden before he went to Pencey, but I just don't know what.
i sort of agree with you, in the way that that may be the reason that he never fit in with people at his old boarding schools, because he maybe was very cautious. However, i don't agree with you in the way that he never trusts people. He never really gets into situations where he has to trust people, but he asks random cab drivers that he meets on the street if they want to get drinks with him, or invites random piano players or performers he sees in clubs if they would like to get drinks with him. I think that its not so much that he doesn't trust people, since he doesn't have any problem talking or drinking with strangers.
“’Feel my forehead,’ she said all of a sudden. ‘Why?’ ‘Feel it. Just feel it once.’ I felt it. It didn’t feel like anything, though. ‘Does it feel very feverish?’ she said. ‘No. Is it supposed to?’ ‘Yes-I’m making it. Feel it again.’ I felt it again, and I still didn’t feel anything, but I said, ‘I think it’s starting to, now.’” This quote really stood out to me, because it reminded me of our discussion about the museum, and how he wants to put everything in a glass case. This quote relates to that, because Holden doesn’t want Phoebe to think that the trick of crossing your legs and holding your breath, etc. is just a children’s joke. He doesn’t want her to loose her childhood innocents, filled with games of trying to fake that you’re sick. He pretends that he feels a temperature, so she will believe that the trick works, so he can preserve her innocents. This relates to the museum, because he talks about wanting to just put everything in a glass case, so that it would stay the same, so that nobody would ever have to grow up and loose they’re innocence. Both of these parts of the book show that Holden is mainly concerned with thinking about, or trying to, preserve people’s innocents. This also relates to the idea that he had of becoming the catcher in the rye, in which he would prevent kids from falling off of a cliff when they where not watching where they went, which I think is a metaphor for catching kids before they loose their innocents. Overall, I think that Holden’s main focus is preserving kids innocents, and that this quote shows that very well.
i do agree with you, all Holden is really trying to do is preserve his youth and cherish it because he can no longer go back to it. He's just struggling to get rid of his lingering feeling of nostalgia for his days as a carefree child.
I agree with you. I feel like Holden wants to preserve the innocence of children because he doesn't have that anymore. He lies and he admits that he is a terrific liar. He doesn't want kids to grow up and be like him. Do you think he hate himself or hate who he is becoming?
“ I didn’t know what the hell to talk about while I was waiting for the elevator” I like quote, it is from when Holden went to sleep over at Mr. Antolini’s house. Holden was a little uncomfortable because I don’t think he understood why Mr. and Mrs. Antolini’s was being super nice. He is not completely wrong; usually in this crazy world today and back then people just don’t welcome you with open arms into their home, and personal life. I feel like a Holden is very insecure and doesn’t think he is worth anything. In my last blog post I said that nothing good will ever happen to Holden and he had enough. But I do think that Holden, after this experience will a nicer person. But I think the loneliness will grow. Sometimes seeing happy people can make you even more unhappy.
"Then, all of a sudden, i started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it. It scared the hell out of old phoebe when i started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can't just stop on a goddam dime."- page 179
When i saw this quote it reminded me of the fact that sometimes its okay to release all the stress and pressure in your life by crying. Everyone cries but of course, they would never admit it because in this world that we live in today, to show weakness would be to show a lack of strength in what you do. Holden never likes crying because he doesn't like to feel sympathy from others because of the fact that he wants everyone to see him in a positive light and by crying, people wont show you the respect that you crave in life, people don't want to be treated like a joke and Holden would be a pure example of that. He is afraid of letting his inner feelings and emotions out for the world to see because he is uncertain as to what there reaction might be. Holden just wants things to go back to the way they were when he was a child but sadly, he cannot go back to his old ways which leads to his depression and sadness. Most people in Holden's age group can relate to that, even I can relate to it; it's simply something we must all go through whether we like it or not. - Connor O'Rourke B band
I totally agree, as a matter of fact I picked the same quote as you. I do agree that to society crying is a sign of weakness, but sometimes you need to cry because its part of life. Everyone has that moment where they break down and can't help but just cry and release all that. Holden kind of seemed to show a new side
" Then, all of the sudden , I started to cry. I couldn;t help it. I did it so nobdy could hear , but i did it. It scared the hell out of Phoebe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can't just stop on a goddamn dime." pg. 179
This quote really touched me and suprised me. Holden cried, but at that moment was the significant part. at this part Phoebe gives her brother 8 dollars and a few cents, he feels touched and can;t hold in his emotions. Phoebe took it with a huge suprise and really didn't know what to do, but the best thing was comfort him. I know realize why he actually, truly loves her so much. She seems to be the only person who actually truly cares for him and understands his feelings. Holden loves that and in his eyes she is perfect. In life, people need a Phoebe, we need someone to be teher for us when we break down, someone who will be there to put their arms arouns us when we need to cry. He felt touched that no matter how little bit of money she gave him, she cared and made it seem like it was alot. We got to see a new part of Holden, the part that is sensitive, which kind of helps explain his mixed emotions. Even though he was emotional, in the quote you can still notice Holden's other side
I, in a way, agree with you. I think that the surprising part of this quote is the fact that Phoebe was surprised. She is the one that Holden claims to share all his feelings with, and the one whom he feels most comfortable around. Thus, it's shocking to think that even she was surprised to see this even though Holden claims they are extremely close and he admires her. I think that because he admires her so greatly, he doesn't want to show weakness in front of her. He's clearly kept his feelings bottled up before, and thus, refuses to let his younger sister see him like that. I also liked that he mentioned he couldn't stop crying. It certainly shows what holding in his emotions for so long has done to him. He really can't hide himself from Phoebe.
"Many, many men have been just as troubled morally and spiritually as you are right now."-page 189
This line stands out to me because Holden needs to know that he is not the only one who feels what he's feeling right now. It's his teenage years where he develops into an adult and so he is confused most of the time. He needs someone to reassure him that he is going to get pass this stage if he decides to try and not giving up. This quote's not only applying to Holden's situation but it also applies to all teenagers in the world. Teenage years are probably the most important years of everyone's life because they're changing and trying to find their true identity. It's difficult and confusing but as long as you keep trying then you will find who you truly are. I think this lines will help Holden reflects on himself but also help him realizing that it is normal to not know what you want to be yet or not knowing if you are real.
I love the quote that you chose, it really describes Holden! I also loved the way that you voiced you'r opinion about it, and how you connected it to the concept of being a teenager!
"I mean, he'd keep telling you to unify and simplify all the time. Some things you just can't do that to. I mean you can't hardly ever simplify and unify something just because somebody wants you to." -page 185
I think that this quote has great significance to the entire novel. I believe that through this quote, Holden was in a way referring to his character. People have always tried to make Holden fit in with society, and tried offering him help, however Holden has consistently chosen not to accept it. He doesn't plan on simplifying himself to fit in with society. He doesn't like to be unified with a bunch of people that he himself makes fun of all the time. I think that because people WANT Holden to fit in with people and do well, it, in an odd way, makes him do the opposite. His brother's death and the fact that his other brother practically abandoned him and his beliefs, Holden refuses to believe and do what others want. He doesn't plan on fitting in with society and simplifying himself because of other people's wants. Holden wants his brothers back, but that doesn't seem to be happening, does it?
“Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn’t help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it.” -Page 179
I chose this quote because it is a moment where we see the emotions that Holden keeps inside. We also see his love for Phoebe since he’s crying about having to take her money to spend on Christmas presents. Whenever HOlden would feel hurt, we would never see him show his emotion. He usually thinks of himself as a strong person emotionally, he also probably doesn’t like people feeling sorry for him since their apology would be phony. I can relate to this because some days just one thing that happened can trigger tears. Even if we think we can be so strong, we end up seeing that there’s nothing that we can do to stop this force.
I really agree with this. we can see the real Holden and how he k=holds things in side and not tell people. He cry's in this part because he is leaving phoebe, and doesn't want her top have bad memories of him. he crys because he has been thinking of Pheobe the whole book and now he meets her and she he is leaving her. this is why i agree with this quote and how we can finally see the inside of Holden.
“I have a feeling that you’re riding for some kind of terrible, terrible fall. . . . The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn’t supply them with. . . . So they gave up looking.” page 194
This is a quote said by Mr. Antolini in a conversation with him and Holden right after he left his parents house and talked to Phoebe. This is Holden's last attempt to save himself. Although, Holden's encounter with Mr. Antolini really unsettles him and completely confuses him. Like Holden, Mr. Antolini is trying to catch Holden mid "fall", just like Holden said he would like to do, when he was talking to Phoebe. Mr. Antolini describes holden as falling apathetically, its almost as if Holden is giving up. Holden sees himself as a protector, and trying to save/help people, instead of being protected. Holden hides all of his real emotions and feelings from most people just to fit into the "norm" which if you ask me is pretty phony. Holden is very disconnected to the world and his surroundings and I think he needs someone to put him back into place.
I completely agree with you I believe Holden is giving up on himself and it's ironic because he wants to catch people before they fall; yet he's not going on the right path. Also what caught my attention was the quote "were looking for something their own environment couldn't supply them with... so they gave up looking" because that's exactly what Holden is doing. He's grown up as being a wealthy guy that is provided with many opportunities that others wish to have, but it's not enough for him. In his perspective it seems that the environment he is surrounded by is full of phonies. It's hard not to turn into something that you've been surrounded by your whole life. At this point it seems that Holden is going to give up on himself.
I actually believe this has something to do with Mr.Antolini's life. I think Mr.Antolini's is saying that after he discovered he was gay, everything started to go downhill. He might he talking about his marriage. How he tried to find someone the same sexuality as he was whom he enjoyed being around, but he couldn't find anyone, so he just settled on his wife who is maybe twice his senior.
"I didn't feel much like thinking and answering and all. I had a headache and I felt lousy. I even had sort of a stomach ache, if you wanted to know the truth." Page 184 At this point, Holden is at an interveiw for a job at a farm. I have realised that when Holden is sad, hurt or happy, he wont admit it. For example, in this quote, Holden said he SORT of had a stomach ache. At this point, Holden is very nervous about the interveiw, and trys to make up excuses to hid his nerves from himself. Holden feels under pressure from his parents and Pheobe because he wants to make them proud, but no matter what, he gets kicked out of school, or stays in a hotel for a week to hide it from them. Holden isn't getting this job for the money, because he has more then enough, but he got it to make his family proud. That is why this quote stood out to me.
Hi Mary, I totally agree with you! I think Holden knows he didn't do a good job when he got kicked out Pencey. So he wanted to do something that his parents and his sister Phoebe would be proud of him. I think he going through lost of pressure in his life. Good job!
"For one thing, I didn't give much of a damn any more if they caught me. I really didn't. I figured if they caught me, they caught me. I almost wished they did, in a way." Chap. 23 page 234
I love this quote. It's ones of my favorite quotes in the entire book so far because I see him like a little kid wanting to go back home. I feel like this quote tells me so much about Holden. Even though Holden's parents did not caught him, I think he wanted to stay home and never get out. I think for him is a safer, and comfortable place for him because he is near the person he loves so much (Phoebe). In a way, he feels ashamed because he was kicked out from Pencey, that was probably why he left, but I don't think he actually wanted to go. Even though Holden is a teenager, I feel like he is very lonely and empty because his parents didn't give a lot of attention to him. So he craves for attention which his sister (Phoebe) always gives him. He is also a person that likes to be understood, and not only heard. Like I said in my of my blog posts, Holden is a very complex and difficult character. He has a hard time interacting with other; anyhow, I see Holden as a kid that is lost and need love. I think there is still a little bit of innocence hidden in his cold barren heart.
I really like your comment! I agree that a part of Holden is a scared kid who doesn't know where to turn and doesn't want to grow up. It makes Holden more likable and relatable that he doesn't want to leave his home and Phoebe. But I also think this line was some foreshadowing in it. "I almost wish they did..." seems ominous, maybe something wouldn't have happened if he hadn't left home again. I don't know...that's just my impression.
"You got any dough, Phoeb? I'm Practically broke. Just my Christmas dough... You want some?
This might just seem like a small part of the dialogue between Holden Caulfield and his sister Phoebe. This quote shows the bond and kindness about Phoebe to her brother. And this segment is something do disprove how much of an irresponsible narrator that he actually is. Though Phoebe might be a pain at some points, she's really kindhearted though, like Holden said alot of the time she understands what he is talking about and understands what he feels, she might not feel it physically but it shows how incredibly strong their relationship of brother and sister is.
"'The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." pg. 188
This quote stood out to me because I think it really describes Holden. He is the essence of the immature man envisioned by the psychoanalyst Mr. Antolini quotes. Holden talks about dying all the time. He says he wants to sit on top of the nuclear bomb if there ever is another war. He says he'd jump out a window if people didn't look at him when he was all gory. He thinks about his funeral, who would come and what it would be like. Holden even imagines he is dying with a bullet in his gut on several occasions. The way he is fed up with life, afraid it will "go lousy" if he doesn't DO something shows that he is immature. He can't really appreciate that people he sees as phonies might be happy, that following the norms of society might not bother others who prefer to live an unremarkable, everyday life. Of course, I think this is part of being a teenager. At our age, we want to be unique, do big things, make an impact in the world. I don't think this is wrong, in fact it's amazing. But I also think part of growing up is realizing that doing the small things that bring you joy and fulfillment, changing your own life and the lives of those around you, can make be just as valuable as doing daring deeds that influence others. I always liked the quote, "I cannot change the world, but I can change the world of one person."Maturity is coming to understand that a humble, quiet life doing good isn't less important than a loud, popularized one.
This is an amazing point. I've never thought of anything in the book this way. I love the quote you chose and the amount of good evidence you used is impressive. I completely agree with your point of Holden being immature. He is always talking about death, as you explained, but it is in such a fake way.
" 'Phoebe have you been smoking a cigarette in here? Tell me the truth, please, young lady.' 'What?' old Phoebe said. 'You heard me.' 'I just lit one for one second. I just took one puff. Then I threw it out the window.' 'Why, may I ask?' 'I couldn't sleep.' 'I don't like that Phoebe. I don't like that at all,' my mother said. 'Do you want another blanket?' "
This stood out to me because it's surprising how she moves on so quickly after thinking that her young daughter tried smoking a cigarette. It's weird to see a mother thinking so little of something like that. This makes me wonder if Holden's mom is a bad influence on him. She seems to not care that much in general and it makes me think that has brushed off onto Holden, making him not care about school, therefore getting the axe from so many. It's also weird how she didn't scold Phoebe at all. This makes me think that she didn't scold Holden or do anything to show that getting kicked out of school isn't ok, so he continued to get kicked out without a care. It also shows that she doesn't really care what her kids are doing, which is weird because you would think after the death of Allie she would be even more protective.
I do think it is interesting that the mother cares so little, but then again, smoking wasn't really limited for any age at that time. Right now, it's a big deal if a fourth-grader tries smoking. I like your idea that Holden's mom is a bad influence on Holden, and that's where he gets his bad attitude from.
I agree. I also think the parents loss of interest or concern when they just found out that there daughter smoked a cigarette is also shown when Holden leaves Pency, and the parents don't know a thing. I think Phoebe's life is going to turn out similar to Holden's because she didn't get the support or discipline she needed from her parents. Although right now kids don't like it when their parents tell them what to do, and get them in trouble, but in the long run, you end up making better decisions in life and knowing how to handle situations. I think Holden needs to be there with her and help her get the support he didn't. Phoebe looks up to him so he needs to try to be a better role model.
I agree with Shoshana, I think her mother's behavior as is indicative of the time period as it is of her bad parenting. I also agree with Leo that this lack of discipline will most definitely hurt Phoebe in the long run. Look where Holden's lack of discipline got him.
"That kind of stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can't stand it." ch. 24
This quote really caught my attention because in this chapter Holden is sleeping on Mr. Antolini's couch and he feels his hand patting him on the head in the dark. Holden describes this scene as being inappropriate describing Mr. Antolini as a pervert.
Holden emotions in this part were really surprising he was all nervous and anxious to leave right away. This line was a good way to end the chapter because as a reader it makes me wonder if his childhood was brutal since he states that this sort of stuff happened to him about twenty times as a child.
How? Were his parents not there for him as a child. Were they there physically, but not mentally? Going back to the book it also reminds me of the little boy near the curb and what a connection they actually have. We're finally getting to a conclusion that probably answers why he wants to be the catcher in the rye. I honestly believe he wants to catch people before they fall into making more life like mistakes in order for them to keep there innocence. Simply just protecting them from anything that can harm them.
“She put the dough in my hand…I tried to give it back to her, but she wouldn’t take it…Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry” (179). When Holden tries to give Phoebe her money back it reminds me of when adults argue over who will pay for something. I think Holden was reminded of the same thing, when she refused to take her money back. This means that Phoebe is acting like an adult which is what makes Holden cry. Holden feels like Phoebe is one of the last things in his life that is childish and he wants to preserve her innocence for as long as possible. Holden at the beginning of the novel didn't want to admit that he was growing up until he finally felt like he couldn't save himself. From then on he wanted to save other kids from growing up. So that is why when Holden sees that Phoebe is maturing it makes him feel like he couldn't save her.
I agree with the part about how Pheobe acting mature and adult like is one of the reasons why Holden cries but I don't fully agree with the "reminds me of when adults argue over who will pay for something." part. I find that a bit irrelevant, I feel its more that the currency she's dealing with is the same used by rich adults, poor adults, and all kinds of adults in the USA. This is why I think she is acting mature, not necessarily about arguing for money.
"Hey, I don't need all this," I said. "Just give me two bucks, is all. No kidding-Here." I tried to give it back to her, but she wouldn't take it. "How much is it, for God's sake?" "Eight dollars and eighty-five cents. Sixty-five cents. I spent some." Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it." (p. 179)
This quote shows how much Phoebe cares about Holden. She gave him all her Christmas gift money because he asked her if she had any since he didn't have money when he wanted to leave. Phoebe really understands Holden, and loves him, because he opens up to her. I think it is significant that Holden bursts into tears here. This scene is where Holden realizes somebody actually loves him. The other love in his life is gone, which was D.B. and Allie, so all he has left is his little sister. Holden is probably afraid that his companion will lose what she is when she gets older. Phoebe has the innocence of a little kid. Holden is worried once Phoebe grows up, and has more experiences, then her personality will change and she won't love him as much anymore. I think a lot of people are afraid of losing someone that loves them, especially after they've lost loved ones.
"Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it. It scared the hell out of old phoebe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can't just stop on a god damn dime." pg 179
The quote above on pg 179 stood out to me and was very deep because I can understand how Holden is feeling, especially when he says "I couldn't help it" because when you get to that limit where your so upset, or so sad or angry or whatever you may be feeling, the best thing to do is to let it out and I feel like in this society in this day and age it's not acceptable. For example, as a kid if you got even a little bit upset, hurt, or even embarrassed you'd cry and no one would judge you for it. Now, it takes a lot to get a teenage boy to cry. If you ask any 9th,10th,11th,12th grader the last time they cryed, it probably wasn't recently. I think this shows that Holden just had a moment to kind of go back to a kid because with only Phoebe there it was OK for him to cry, and no one could see him pouring out all that stress inside of him, so he couldnt be judged. I think this part of the book was very sad and I feel bad that Holden feels so stressful and depressed constantly.
I agree with you when you say "I feel like in this society in this day and age it's not acceptable." I think this may be because people, adults and teens, don't want to appear vulnerable by crying. This raises the question, why do people avoid be vulnerable?. I think the reason is because it shows weakness by letting others "inside" of your emotions. Another question is, why is Holden crying when Phoebe gives him the money? I believe this is because it is innocent. Phoebe doesn't really know the value of money yet, which is very innocent because she is not exposed to the responsibility of managing finances, or greed, or "phony" people just trying to obtain money.
"Among other things you'll find that you're not the first person who was ever confused and frightened and even sickened by human behavior. (...)" p. 189
This line stood out to me because I really feel it speaks to Holden, and all teens. I feel that what Mr. Antolini is saying, is something that we all feel at times and it is comforting to Holden. In the world everyone feels that what others are doing is wrong, and we try so hard to understand those sick behaviors but we can't. In Holden's case, he feels so many people are phony that he is the only one who sees it, and he can't fit in if everyone else is different from him. He is unique, but he also shares opinions with others, he's not alone. This goes back to our discussion on identity and raises the question, is everyone really different and unique? I think yes, we are all different, some of us just share opinions and beliefs, parts of us. Though, as a whole we are all made up of a different "combinations" of those shared aspects of a people, and it is our "combination" that makes us unique.
"Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it." (179)
Holden can't hold in his emotions due to Pheobe's generous offer. It's not that $8 and some change is a lot but the fact that his little sister had to give it to him. He is in an unstable mental state and as the reader you can tell he just can't hold it in anymore. He finally feels comfortable enough to let it all out and cry. " It scared the hell out of old Pheobe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop." Pheobe tried to help instead of making fun of him for being old and crying which is what most her age would do.
I think the most significant part in this quote is that he feels so comfortable with Pheobe that she is truly the only one he can be truthful with. This makes me feel like Holden is a phony. We see his true colors here and he has not shown us his true self until now. This means he's been acting different than himself to others. This makes him the epitome of a phony.
I agree with you 100% beacuse he finds comfort in a little girl and then this is the only time he is being real. He lets out everything which is something he hardly does and its hard for any one to get things out. Holden is a phony but then again every one has that little side.
“Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn’t help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it.” (pg. 179)
He cried in this part of the book because i think he was reflecting on the beginning and how through out until now he was talking about being with Phoebe, and now he is leaving her. he keeps all of his emotions inside so he can hide. he doesn't let them out until now because it hits him that he is still a kid and that he can't keep running away. he says later on the page that he wishes that his parents wold find him but he doesn't let that happen. if his parents found him they would be really mad but also glad to see him. i would think that Holden would end the book there but he still didn't get closer yet from his family.
I agree that Holden cried that because he had to leave Phoebe which must've been difficult for him because we know how much he loves her. I also think he is crying because he feels so lucky to have a generous sister that will cover for him to keep him out of any more trouble with their parents, and that will be so generous in lending her money. Katya
"I don't hate too many guys. What I may do, I may hate them for a little while, like this guy Stradlater I knew at Pencey, and this other boy, Robert Ackley. I hated them once in a while..."
This quote stood out to me because for once he is being honest with us and himself. Earlier in the book Holden practically said how much he despised these people, but towards the end of the book when he see's Phoebe h sort of has this new soft spot and he realizes that he really doesn't hate anybody, And that he actually likes them in his life no matter how annoying or insubordinate someone really is.
"If they caught me, they caught me. I almost wish they did, in a way." p.180
This line stood out to me because it shows how much Holden wants to stay, but why he is also glad he wasn't caught. Holden really wanted to stay home so he wouldn't be so lonely, and more importantly, he would actually enjoy his company, Phoebe. After dancing and having a nice talk with his sister Phoebe, that he adores and admires, how could Holden leave so easily. I think that is also part of why he cried when Phoebe gave him some of her money. Phoebe giving Holden some of her savings was not just an act of generosity, but also a way to say good-bye. However, Holden also knows that Phoebe is right in the sense that Holden's father would 'kill him' if he was caught and found out he was kicked out of his school. If there is one thing Holden doesn't want, it is probably more trouble, like whatever punishment is awaiting him for when he really goes home on Wednesday and delivers the news about getting kicked out of Pencey. Holden has faced enough trouble like getting beat up by Maurice, or having an awful date with Sally. Fear of trouble is the only thing that kept Holden from staying home.
"Then I took my hunting hat out of my coat pocket and gave it to her."
I can tell that Phoebe is very important to him becuase he gave his hat to her. To me this big because that hat symbloizes his strength and weakness. For example, if i gave my grandma shirt to my brother, he is a very important to me but so is that item. To give that to him it means more than trust and being real it. After all he turns to her to give her this gift.
“I think that one of these days,' he said, 'you're going to have to find out where you want to go. And then you've got to start going there.” - Page 188 This quote stood out to me because it showed the confusion Holden hand. It highlighted his main conflict in the book and we SURELY know now that Holden doesn't know where to go in life. He's stuck in between adulthood and childhood but he's losing time, so he has to make a decision. He wants to do both at the same time but he can't and he has to choose the right path. His old teacher, Mr. Antolini gave him a reality check, which was what he needed. He needed to know that he needed to think about his life and his future. He had to figure out what we wanted and then do it quick because he was running out of time. No one ever told Holden this so he didn't know, but now I think he's going to realize what he needs to do and try his best to pursue it. He can't just stay a child forever.
"Then all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it." (page 179)
This quote most people would think shows Holden dislikes crying because then he has to be himself when he cries but I think he likes it. Holden likes most sad things because he himself is sad. I would think crying would not only let him express his confusion but capture his sadness. When you cry without sound I think the crying hurts more because you are not releseing your sadness.
"Then, all of the sudden , I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear , but I did it." P:179 I think this shows how insecure Holden is about his feelings. He never expressed himself in this way before, even when fighting Stradlater, or Maurice. He only expressed some of his anger, not all of it. He just he lets things build and build till he just can't take it anymore. This is another big problem for Holden. The fact that he's insecure, makes him unable to share his feelings with others. This makes it difficult for people to relate to him. If people cant relate to him, he feels isolated and sad. Which leads to more feeling suppression and so on and so forth. What Salinger is saying is that when we hide ourselves even from those closest to us, we send ourselves down a vicious spiral that ultimately ends in our spirit breaking.
I definitely agree with you when you say that Holden has never really shown his emotions. I also think that Holden might've started crying because he missed home and Phoebe so much, or because he might actually miss Pencey.
Quote #25 Then something happened. I don't even like to talk about it. I woke up all of a sudden. I don't know what time it was or anything, but I woke up. I felt something on my head, some guy's hand. Boy, it really scared hell out of me. What it was, it was Mr. Antolini's hand. What he was doing was, he was sitting on the floor right next to the couch, in the dark and all, and he was sort of petting me or patting me on the goddam head. Boy, I'll bet I jumped about a thousand feet.
"What the hellya doing?" I said.
"Nothing! I'm simply sitting here, admiring – "
"What're ya doing, anyway?" I said over again. I didn't know what the hell to say – I mean I was embarrassed as hell.
"How 'bout keeping your voice down? I'm simply sitting here – "
"I have to go, anyway," I said – boy, was I nervous! I started putting on my damn pants in the dark. I could hardly get them on I was so damn nervous. I know more damn perverts, at schools and all, than anybody you ever met, and they're always being perverty when I'm around. (pages.191-192)
Is Holden's judgement of Mr.Antolini's gesture extreme and irrational?
I think not. If I were Holden and I woke up to an adult of the same sex who is not related to me patting my head and staring at me, I would probably run away in fear of being abused or harrassed. There is reasoning to support Holden's theorey. Mr.Antolini asks about Holden's love life and says he is handsome. Also, Holden said his wife was much older than him, so possibly are they married in order to give Mr.Antolini, and possibly Mrs.Antolini, social acceptance and not getting them discriminated against due to their sexual orientation. Also, as disturbing as this sounds, Mr.Antolini was the one who carted off Holden's classmate who committed suicide. Who knows what happened after. These pieces of info about Mr.Antolini give the reader insight into Holden's point of view and cast a completely different light on Mr.Antolini's character. However, Holden could've just been misinterpreting the gesture. Maybe Antolini was just doing it to comfort Holden, maybe he thinks of him as a son. Maybe him and his wife are truly in love with each other. Maybe he just asked about Holden's love life to keep up a conversation and maybe he actually did carry away Jame's body out of respect and sympathy. So Holden's hypothesis does not come without proper evidence.
“Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn’t help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it."
This line stood out to me because Holden is finally breaking down and admitting that he really was upset before. He's mentioned his depression, but i feel like he's never been great at expressing his depression or any other emotions he might have. This is the first time in a while that Holden has shown any emotion besides being annoyed, mad, or lonely. This might be another sign of Holden growing up- he's kind of accepting his own emotions and not trying to hide anything from himself. He's becoming less and less phony as the book progresses. I think that in general, people don't really like to show their emotions. It makes many people uncomfortable, feeling like they're letting other people into their own minds and showing them exactly how they feel. Many people, like Holden, might not know exactly how to express their own emotions. Holden's depression and loneliness has probably built up over the course of the book, and now he's finally letting it all out.
"Then all of a sudden i started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me but I did it. I scared the hell out of Phoebe when i started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you started, you just can't stop on a goddam dime. I was sitting on the edge of the bed when I did it, and she put her old arm around my neck, and I put my arm around her, too, but i couldn't stop for a long time."
This quote stood out to me because it shows how much of a strong relationship that Holden shares with his sister. Holden cries because Phoebe gave him some of her Christmas money. That surprised me because Holden doesn't cry around other people because he doesn't want to seem weak. The fact that Holden just starts crying in front of his little sister probably makes her think why is he cry I only gave him money, but she still comforts him trying to make him stop like a sister would do because she cares about her big brother Holden. I also think that Holden was crying and why he he put his arm around her for so long because he really didn't want to leave Phoebe he cared about her and he would miss her. Also if you think about shouldn't be the other way around instead of the little sister comforting her big brother to make him feel better?
"I figured if they caught me, they caught me. I almost wished they did, in a way."
This line stood out to me because of how left out Holden seems. It actually made me sad, to see him want to be caught, so he can stay with Phoebe, deal with his parents, but still be home. I think he might regret leaving, but is happy he at least got to see his sister. What if he goes back, turns around? Do you think he'll do something showing how homesick he is? Or will he try to act tough and forget about it?
"Eighty dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. All of a sudden I started to cry. I couldn't help it." (pg. 179)
I think this is significant because it shows that Holden does have feelings and that he does care. He is always talking about calling Phoebe up and how he loves her and wants to be with her and can just be himself with her. When he is crying, it is almost like he is letting out all the accumulating bad feelings and is just telling Phoebe everything. It also shows that their family definitely has a lot of money. When I was younger, I never got even close to having ten dollars. WIth their family, if the kid had 200 dollars, the parents would probably never even notice. Why he starts crying, maybe is because this is the first time that he isn't just being given money because he needs it but he is also being shown love. People don't give almost $100 to random strangers, even with friends, someone would only give a few dollars. Phoebe is giving him this money because she loves and cares about him, and that is something Holden is not used to. He just wishes the whole world were like Phoebe.
"That kind of stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was kid. I can't stand it." pg. 193
ReplyDeleteThis line really shocked me because Holden told us something about his childhood that seems really really personal. He says perverted stuff has happened a lot since he was kid which makes me think maybe he was abused or made felt uncomfortable. Is that why he maybe has problems trusting people? I mean in life when people go through certain situations like that they dont leaarn to trust people that easily. Also is that why Holden treats people like they are phony and he just doesn't like anyone? This line right here just opened up my eyes and amde understand Holden better and way differently than before maybe this is the reason why he is the way that he is and thats why it takes him a long time to be able to trust others.
I agree, maybe there is more to just Holden being mean and judging others. Maybe we just looked at him the wrong way. Most times when someone says or does something mean or has a unfriendly relationship we often think oh! Maybe something happened in her childhood. I do agree that something happened to Holden before he went to Pencey, but I just don't know what.
Deletei sort of agree with you, in the way that that may be the reason that he never fit in with people at his old boarding schools, because he maybe was very cautious. However, i don't agree with you in the way that he never trusts people. He never really gets into situations where he has to trust people, but he asks random cab drivers that he meets on the street if they want to get drinks with him, or invites random piano players or performers he sees in clubs if they would like to get drinks with him. I think that its not so much that he doesn't trust people, since he doesn't have any problem talking or drinking with strangers.
Delete“’Feel my forehead,’ she said all of a sudden. ‘Why?’ ‘Feel it. Just feel it once.’ I felt it. It didn’t feel like anything, though. ‘Does it feel very feverish?’ she said. ‘No. Is it supposed to?’ ‘Yes-I’m making it. Feel it again.’ I felt it again, and I still didn’t feel anything, but I said, ‘I think it’s starting to, now.’”
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me, because it reminded me of our discussion about the museum, and how he wants to put everything in a glass case. This quote relates to that, because Holden doesn’t want Phoebe to think that the trick of crossing your legs and holding your breath, etc. is just a children’s joke. He doesn’t want her to loose her childhood innocents, filled with games of trying to fake that you’re sick. He pretends that he feels a temperature, so she will believe that the trick works, so he can preserve her innocents. This relates to the museum, because he talks about wanting to just put everything in a glass case, so that it would stay the same, so that nobody would ever have to grow up and loose they’re innocence. Both of these parts of the book show that Holden is mainly concerned with thinking about, or trying to, preserve people’s innocents. This also relates to the idea that he had of becoming the catcher in the rye, in which he would prevent kids from falling off of a cliff when they where not watching where they went, which I think is a metaphor for catching kids before they loose their innocents. Overall, I think that Holden’s main focus is preserving kids innocents, and that this quote shows that very well.
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Deletei do agree with you, all Holden is really trying to do is preserve his youth and cherish it because he can no longer go back to it. He's just struggling to get rid of his lingering feeling of nostalgia for his days as a carefree child.
DeleteI agree with you. I feel like Holden wants to preserve the innocence of children because he doesn't have that anymore. He lies and he admits that he is a terrific liar. He doesn't want kids to grow up and be like him. Do you think he hate himself or hate who he is becoming?
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ReplyDelete“ I didn’t know what the hell to talk about while I was waiting for the elevator”
ReplyDeleteI like quote, it is from when Holden went to sleep over at Mr. Antolini’s house. Holden was a little uncomfortable because I don’t think he understood why Mr. and Mrs. Antolini’s was being super nice. He is not completely wrong; usually in this crazy world today and back then people just don’t welcome you with open arms into their home, and personal life. I feel like a Holden is very insecure and doesn’t think he is worth anything. In my last blog post I said that nothing good will ever happen to Holden and he had enough. But I do think that Holden, after this experience will a nicer person. But I think the loneliness will grow. Sometimes seeing happy people can make you even more unhappy.
"Then, all of a sudden, i started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it. It scared the hell out of old phoebe when i started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can't just stop on a goddam dime."- page 179
ReplyDeleteWhen i saw this quote it reminded me of the fact that sometimes its okay to release all the stress and pressure in your life by crying. Everyone cries but of course, they would never admit it because in this world that we live in today, to show weakness would be to show a lack of strength in what you do. Holden never likes crying because he doesn't like to feel sympathy from others because of the fact that he wants everyone to see him in a positive light and by crying, people wont show you the respect that you crave in life, people don't want to be treated like a joke and Holden would be a pure example of that. He is afraid of letting his inner feelings and emotions out for the world to see because he is uncertain as to what there reaction might be. Holden just wants things to go back to the way they were when he was a child but sadly, he cannot go back to his old ways which leads to his depression and sadness. Most people in Holden's age group can relate to that, even I can relate to it; it's simply something we must all go through whether we like it or not. - Connor O'Rourke B band
I totally agree, as a matter of fact I picked the same quote as you. I do agree that to society crying is a sign of weakness, but sometimes you need to cry because its part of life. Everyone has that moment where they break down and can't help but just cry and release all that. Holden kind of seemed to show a new side
Delete" Then, all of the sudden , I started to cry. I couldn;t help it. I did it so nobdy could hear , but i did it. It scared the hell out of Phoebe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can't just stop on a goddamn dime." pg. 179
ReplyDeleteThis quote really touched me and suprised me. Holden cried, but at that moment was the significant part. at this part Phoebe gives her brother 8 dollars and a few cents, he feels touched and can;t hold in his emotions. Phoebe took it with a huge suprise and really didn't know what to do, but the best thing was comfort him. I know realize why he actually, truly loves her so much. She seems to be the only person who actually truly cares for him and understands his feelings. Holden loves that and in his eyes she is perfect. In life, people need a Phoebe, we need someone to be teher for us when we break down, someone who will be there to put their arms arouns us when we need to cry. He felt touched that no matter how little bit of money she gave him, she cared and made it seem like it was alot. We got to see a new part of Holden, the part that is sensitive, which kind of helps explain his mixed emotions. Even though he was emotional, in the quote you can still notice Holden's other side
I, in a way, agree with you. I think that the surprising part of this quote is the fact that Phoebe was surprised. She is the one that Holden claims to share all his feelings with, and the one whom he feels most comfortable around. Thus, it's shocking to think that even she was surprised to see this even though Holden claims they are extremely close and he admires her. I think that because he admires her so greatly, he doesn't want to show weakness in front of her. He's clearly kept his feelings bottled up before, and thus, refuses to let his younger sister see him like that. I also liked that he mentioned he couldn't stop crying. It certainly shows what holding in his emotions for so long has done to him. He really can't hide himself from Phoebe.
Delete"Many, many men have been just as troubled morally and spiritually as you are right now."-page 189
ReplyDeleteThis line stands out to me because Holden needs to know that he is not the only one who feels what he's feeling right now. It's his teenage years where he develops into an adult and so he is confused most of the time. He needs someone to reassure him that he is going to get pass this stage if he decides to try and not giving up. This quote's not only applying to Holden's situation but it also applies to all teenagers in the world. Teenage years are probably the most important years of everyone's life because they're changing and trying to find their true identity. It's difficult and confusing but as long as you keep trying then you will find who you truly are. I think this lines will help Holden reflects on himself but also help him realizing that it is normal to not know what you want to be yet or not knowing if you are real.
I love the quote that you chose, it really describes Holden! I also loved the way that you voiced you'r opinion about it, and how you connected it to the concept of being a teenager!
Delete"I mean, he'd keep telling you to unify and simplify all the time. Some things you just can't do that to. I mean you can't hardly ever simplify and unify something just because somebody wants you to." -page 185
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote has great significance to the entire novel. I believe that through this quote, Holden was in a way referring to his character. People have always tried to make Holden fit in with society, and tried offering him help, however Holden has consistently chosen not to accept it. He doesn't plan on simplifying himself to fit in with society. He doesn't like to be unified with a bunch of people that he himself makes fun of all the time. I think that because people WANT Holden to fit in with people and do well, it, in an odd way, makes him do the opposite. His brother's death and the fact that his other brother practically abandoned him and his beliefs, Holden refuses to believe and do what others want. He doesn't plan on fitting in with society and simplifying himself because of other people's wants. Holden wants his brothers back, but that doesn't seem to be happening, does it?
I really love how you took this quote and brought it back to the whole novel. I totally agree with what you said how he's referring to himself.
Delete“Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn’t help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it.” -Page 179
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it is a moment where we see the emotions that Holden keeps inside. We also see his love for Phoebe since he’s crying about having to take her money to spend on Christmas presents. Whenever HOlden would feel hurt, we would never see him show his emotion. He usually thinks of himself as a strong person emotionally, he also probably doesn’t like people feeling sorry for him since their apology would be phony. I can relate to this because some days just one thing that happened can trigger tears. Even if we think we can be so strong, we end up seeing that there’s nothing that we can do to stop this force.
Matt Baldwin
DeleteI really agree with this. we can see the real Holden and how he k=holds things in side and not tell people. He cry's in this part because he is leaving phoebe, and doesn't want her top have bad memories of him. he crys because he has been thinking of Pheobe the whole book and now he meets her and she he is leaving her. this is why i agree with this quote and how we can finally see the inside of Holden.
“I have a feeling that you’re riding for some kind of terrible, terrible fall. . . . The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn’t supply them with. . . . So they gave up looking.” page 194
ReplyDeleteThis is a quote said by Mr. Antolini in a conversation with him and Holden right after he left his parents house and talked to Phoebe. This is Holden's last attempt to save himself. Although, Holden's encounter with Mr. Antolini really unsettles him and completely confuses him. Like Holden, Mr. Antolini is trying to catch Holden mid "fall", just like Holden said he would like to do, when he was talking to Phoebe. Mr. Antolini describes holden as falling apathetically, its almost as if Holden is giving up. Holden sees himself as a protector, and trying to save/help people, instead of being protected. Holden hides all of his real emotions and feelings from most people just to fit into the "norm" which if you ask me is pretty phony. Holden is very disconnected to the world and his surroundings and I think he needs someone to put him back into place.
I completely agree with you I believe Holden is giving up on himself and it's ironic because he wants to catch people before they fall; yet he's not going on the right path. Also what caught my attention was the quote "were looking for something their own environment couldn't supply them with... so they gave up looking" because that's exactly what Holden is doing. He's grown up as being a wealthy guy that is provided with many opportunities that others wish to have, but it's not enough for him. In his perspective it seems that the environment he is surrounded by is full of phonies. It's hard not to turn into something that you've been surrounded by your whole life. At this point it seems that Holden is going to give up on himself.
DeleteI actually believe this has something to do with Mr.Antolini's life. I think Mr.Antolini's is saying that after he discovered he was gay, everything started to go downhill. He might he talking about his marriage. How he tried to find someone the same sexuality as he was whom he enjoyed being around, but he couldn't find anyone, so he just settled on his wife who is maybe twice his senior.
Delete"I didn't feel much like thinking and answering and all. I had a headache and I felt lousy. I even had sort of a stomach ache, if you wanted to know the truth."
ReplyDeletePage 184
At this point, Holden is at an interveiw for a job at a farm. I have realised that when Holden is sad, hurt or happy, he wont admit it. For example, in this quote, Holden said he SORT of had a stomach ache. At this point, Holden is very nervous about the interveiw, and trys to make up excuses to hid his nerves from himself. Holden feels under pressure from his parents and Pheobe because he wants to make them proud, but no matter what, he gets kicked out of school, or stays in a hotel for a week to hide it from them. Holden isn't getting this job for the money, because he has more then enough, but he got it to make his family proud. That is why this quote stood out to me.
Hi Mary, I totally agree with you! I think Holden knows he didn't do a good job when he got kicked out Pencey. So he wanted to do something that his parents and his sister Phoebe would be proud of him. I think he going through lost of pressure in his life. Good job!
DeleteMary-- I'm not sure what you mean, "He's at an interview for a job at a farm." Can you explain?
Delete"For one thing, I didn't give much of a damn any more if they caught me. I really didn't. I figured if they caught me, they caught me. I almost wished they did, in a way."
ReplyDeleteChap. 23 page 234
I love this quote. It's ones of my favorite quotes in the entire book so far because I see him like a little kid wanting to go back home. I feel like this quote tells me so much about Holden. Even though Holden's parents did not caught him, I think he wanted to stay home and never get out. I think for him is a safer, and comfortable place for him because he is near the person he loves so much (Phoebe). In a way, he feels ashamed because he was kicked out from Pencey, that was probably why he left, but I don't think he actually wanted to go.
Even though Holden is a teenager, I feel like he is very lonely and empty because his parents didn't give a lot of attention to him. So he craves for attention which his sister (Phoebe) always gives him. He is also a person that likes to be understood, and not only heard. Like I said in my of my blog posts, Holden is a very complex and difficult character. He has a hard time interacting with other; anyhow, I see Holden as a kid that is lost and need love. I think there is still a little bit of innocence hidden in his cold barren heart.
I really like your comment! I agree that a part of Holden is a scared kid who doesn't know where to turn and doesn't want to grow up. It makes Holden more likable and relatable that he doesn't want to leave his home and Phoebe. But I also think this line was some foreshadowing in it. "I almost wish they did..." seems ominous, maybe something wouldn't have happened if he hadn't left home again. I don't know...that's just my impression.
Delete"You got any dough, Phoeb? I'm Practically broke.
ReplyDeleteJust my Christmas dough... You want some?
This might just seem like a small part of the dialogue between Holden Caulfield and his sister Phoebe. This quote shows the bond and kindness about Phoebe to her brother. And this segment is something do disprove how much of an irresponsible narrator that he actually is. Though Phoebe might be a pain at some points, she's really kindhearted though, like Holden said alot of the time she understands what he is talking about and understands what he feels, she might not feel it physically but it shows how incredibly strong their relationship of brother and sister is.
"'The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." pg. 188
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because I think it really describes Holden. He is the essence of the immature man envisioned by the psychoanalyst Mr. Antolini quotes. Holden talks about dying all the time. He says he wants to sit on top of the nuclear bomb if there ever is another war. He says he'd jump out a window if people didn't look at him when he was all gory. He thinks about his funeral, who would come and what it would be like. Holden even imagines he is dying with a bullet in his gut on several occasions. The way he is fed up with life, afraid it will "go lousy" if he doesn't DO something shows that he is immature. He can't really appreciate that people he sees as phonies might be happy, that following the norms of society might not bother others who prefer to live an unremarkable, everyday life. Of course, I think this is part of being a teenager. At our age, we want to be unique, do big things, make an impact in the world. I don't think this is wrong, in fact it's amazing. But I also think part of growing up is realizing that doing the small things that bring you joy and fulfillment, changing your own life and the lives of those around you, can make be just as valuable as doing daring deeds that influence others. I always liked the quote, "I cannot change the world, but I can change the world of one person."Maturity is coming to understand that a humble, quiet life doing good isn't less important than a loud, popularized one.
This is an amazing point. I've never thought of anything in the book this way. I love the quote you chose and the amount of good evidence you used is impressive. I completely agree with your point of Holden being immature. He is always talking about death, as you explained, but it is in such a fake way.
Delete" 'Phoebe have you been smoking a cigarette in here? Tell me the truth, please, young lady.' 'What?' old Phoebe said. 'You heard me.' 'I just lit one for one second. I just took one puff. Then I threw it out the window.' 'Why, may I ask?' 'I couldn't sleep.' 'I don't like that Phoebe. I don't like that at all,' my mother said. 'Do you want another blanket?' "
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me because it's surprising how she moves on so quickly after thinking that her young daughter tried smoking a cigarette. It's weird to see a mother thinking so little of something like that. This makes me wonder if Holden's mom is a bad influence on him. She seems to not care that much in general and it makes me think that has brushed off onto Holden, making him not care about school, therefore getting the axe from so many. It's also weird how she didn't scold Phoebe at all. This makes me think that she didn't scold Holden or do anything to show that getting kicked out of school isn't ok, so he continued to get kicked out without a care. It also shows that she doesn't really care what her kids are doing, which is weird because you would think after the death of Allie she would be even more protective.
I do think it is interesting that the mother cares so little, but then again, smoking wasn't really limited for any age at that time. Right now, it's a big deal if a fourth-grader tries smoking. I like your idea that Holden's mom is a bad influence on Holden, and that's where he gets his bad attitude from.
DeleteI agree. I also think the parents loss of interest or concern when they just found out that there daughter smoked a cigarette is also shown when Holden leaves Pency, and the parents don't know a thing. I think Phoebe's life is going to turn out similar to Holden's because she didn't get the support or discipline she needed from her parents. Although right now kids don't like it when their parents tell them what to do, and get them in trouble, but in the long run, you end up making better decisions in life and knowing how to handle situations. I think Holden needs to be there with her and help her get the support he didn't. Phoebe looks up to him so he needs to try to be a better role model.
DeleteI agree with Shoshana, I think her mother's behavior as is indicative of the time period as it is of her bad parenting. I also agree with Leo that this lack of discipline will most definitely hurt Phoebe in the long run. Look where Holden's lack of discipline got him.
Delete"That kind of stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can't stand it." ch. 24
ReplyDeleteThis quote really caught my attention because in this chapter Holden is sleeping on Mr. Antolini's couch and he feels his hand patting him on the head in the dark. Holden describes this scene as being inappropriate describing Mr. Antolini as a pervert.
Holden emotions in this part were really surprising he was all nervous and anxious to leave right away. This line was a good way to end the chapter because as a reader it makes me wonder if his childhood was brutal since he states that this sort of stuff happened to him about twenty times as a child.
How? Were his parents not there for him as a child. Were they there physically, but not mentally? Going back to the book it also reminds me of the little boy near the curb and what a connection they actually have. We're finally getting to a conclusion that probably answers why he wants to be the catcher in the rye. I honestly believe he wants to catch people before they fall into making more life like mistakes in order for them to keep there innocence. Simply just protecting them from anything that can harm them.
Holden's*
DeleteWere his parents not there for him as a child?*
errors.
“She put the dough in my hand…I tried to give it back to her, but she wouldn’t take it…Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry” (179).
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden tries to give Phoebe her money back it reminds me of when adults argue over who will pay for something. I think Holden was reminded of the same thing, when she refused to take her money back. This means that Phoebe is acting like an adult which is what makes Holden cry. Holden feels like Phoebe is one of the last things in his life that is childish and he wants to preserve her innocence for as long as possible. Holden at the beginning of the novel didn't want to admit that he was growing up until he finally felt like he couldn't save himself. From then on he wanted to save other kids from growing up. So that is why when Holden sees that Phoebe is maturing it makes him feel like he couldn't save her.
I agree with the part about how Pheobe acting mature and adult like is one of the reasons why Holden cries but I don't fully agree with the "reminds me of when adults argue over who will pay for something." part. I find that a bit irrelevant, I feel its more that the currency she's dealing with is the same used by rich adults, poor adults, and all kinds of adults in the USA. This is why I think she is acting mature, not necessarily about arguing for money.
Delete"Hey, I don't need all this," I said. "Just give me two bucks, is all. No kidding-Here." I tried to give it back to her, but she wouldn't take it.
ReplyDelete"How much is it, for God's sake?"
"Eight dollars and eighty-five cents. Sixty-five cents. I spent some."
Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it." (p. 179)
This quote shows how much Phoebe cares about Holden. She gave him all her Christmas gift money because he asked her if she had any since he didn't have money when he wanted to leave. Phoebe really understands Holden, and loves him, because he opens up to her. I think it is significant that Holden bursts into tears here. This scene is where Holden realizes somebody actually loves him. The other love in his life is gone, which was D.B. and Allie, so all he has left is his little sister. Holden is probably afraid that his companion will lose what she is when she gets older. Phoebe has the innocence of a little kid. Holden is worried once Phoebe grows up, and has more experiences, then her personality will change and she won't love him as much anymore. I think a lot of people are afraid of losing someone that loves them, especially after they've lost loved ones.
"Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it. It scared the hell out of old phoebe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can't just stop on a god damn dime." pg 179
ReplyDeleteThe quote above on pg 179 stood out to me and was very deep because I can understand how Holden is feeling, especially when he says "I couldn't help it" because when you get to that limit where your so upset, or so sad or angry or whatever you may be feeling, the best thing to do is to let it out and I feel like in this society in this day and age it's not acceptable. For example, as a kid if you got even a little bit upset, hurt, or even embarrassed you'd cry and no one would judge you for it. Now, it takes a lot to get a teenage boy to cry. If you ask any 9th,10th,11th,12th grader the last time they cryed, it probably wasn't recently. I think this shows that Holden just had a moment to kind of go back to a kid because with only Phoebe there it was OK for him to cry, and no one could see him pouring out all that stress inside of him, so he couldnt be judged. I think this part of the book was very sad and I feel bad that Holden feels so stressful and depressed constantly.
I agree with you when you say "I feel like in this society in this day and age it's not acceptable." I think this may be because people, adults and teens, don't want to appear vulnerable by crying. This raises the question, why do people avoid be vulnerable?. I think the reason is because it shows weakness by letting others "inside" of your emotions. Another question is, why is Holden crying when Phoebe gives him the money? I believe this is because it is innocent. Phoebe doesn't really know the value of money yet, which is very innocent because she is not exposed to the responsibility of managing finances, or greed, or "phony" people just trying to obtain money.
Delete"Among other things you'll find that you're not the first person who was ever confused and frightened and even sickened by human behavior. (...)" p. 189
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because I really feel it speaks to Holden, and all teens. I feel that what Mr. Antolini is saying, is something that we all feel at times and it is comforting to Holden. In the world everyone feels that what others are doing is wrong, and we try so hard to understand those sick behaviors but we can't. In Holden's case, he feels so many people are phony that he is the only one who sees it, and he can't fit in if everyone else is different from him. He is unique, but he also shares opinions with others, he's not alone. This goes back to our discussion on identity and raises the question, is everyone really different and unique? I think yes, we are all different, some of us just share opinions and beliefs, parts of us. Though, as a whole we are all made up of a different "combinations" of those shared aspects of a people, and it is our "combination" that makes us unique.
"Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it." (179)
ReplyDeleteHolden can't hold in his emotions due to Pheobe's generous offer. It's not that $8 and some change is a lot but the fact that his little sister had to give it to him. He is in an unstable mental state and as the reader you can tell he just can't hold it in anymore. He finally feels comfortable enough to let it all out and cry. " It scared the hell out of old Pheobe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop." Pheobe tried to help instead of making fun of him for being old and crying which is what most her age would do.
I think the most significant part in this quote is that he feels so comfortable with Pheobe that she is truly the only one he can be truthful with. This makes me feel like Holden is a phony. We see his true colors here and he has not shown us his true self until now. This means he's been acting different than himself to others. This makes him the epitome of a phony.
I agree with you 100% beacuse he finds comfort in a little girl and then this is the only time he is being real. He lets out everything which is something he hardly does and its hard for any one to get things out. Holden is a phony but then again every one has that little side.
DeleteMatthew Baldwin
ReplyDelete“Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn’t help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it.” (pg. 179)
He cried in this part of the book because i think he was reflecting on the beginning and how through out until now he was talking about being with Phoebe, and now he is leaving her. he keeps all of his emotions inside so he can hide. he doesn't let them out until now because it hits him that he is still a kid and that he can't keep running away. he says later on the page that he wishes that his parents wold find him but he doesn't let that happen. if his parents found him they would be really mad but also glad to see him. i would think that Holden would end the book there but he still didn't get closer yet from his family.
I agree that Holden cried that because he had to leave Phoebe which must've been difficult for him because we know how much he loves her. I also think he is crying because he feels so lucky to have a generous sister that will cover for him to keep him out of any more trouble with their parents, and that will be so generous in lending her money.
DeleteKatya
"I don't hate too many guys. What I may do, I may hate them for a little while, like this guy Stradlater I knew at Pencey, and this other boy, Robert Ackley. I hated them once in a while..."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because for once he is being honest with us and himself. Earlier in the book Holden practically said how much he despised these people, but towards the end of the book when he see's Phoebe h sort of has this new soft spot and he realizes that he really doesn't hate anybody, And that he actually likes them in his life no matter how annoying or insubordinate someone really is.
Katya Bakal-Schlomann
ReplyDelete"If they caught me, they caught me. I almost wish they did, in a way." p.180
This line stood out to me because it shows how much Holden wants to stay, but why he is also glad he wasn't caught. Holden really wanted to stay home so he wouldn't be so lonely, and more importantly, he would actually enjoy his company, Phoebe. After dancing and having a nice talk with his sister Phoebe, that he adores and admires, how could Holden leave so easily. I think that is also part of why he cried when Phoebe gave him some of her money. Phoebe giving Holden some of her savings was not just an act of generosity, but also a way to say good-bye. However, Holden also knows that Phoebe is right in the sense that Holden's father would 'kill him' if he was caught and found out he was kicked out of his school. If there is one thing Holden doesn't want, it is probably more trouble, like whatever punishment is awaiting him for when he really goes home on Wednesday and delivers the news about getting kicked out of Pencey. Holden has faced enough trouble like getting beat up by Maurice, or having an awful date with Sally. Fear of trouble is the only thing that kept Holden from staying home.
"Then I took my hunting hat out of my coat pocket and gave it to her."
ReplyDeleteI can tell that Phoebe is very important to him becuase he gave his hat to her. To me this big because that hat symbloizes his strength and weakness. For example, if i gave my grandma shirt to my brother, he is a very important to me but so is that item. To give that to him it means more than trust and being real it. After all he turns to her to give her this gift.
“I think that one of these days,' he said, 'you're going to have to find out where you want to go. And then you've got to start going there.” - Page 188
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it showed the confusion Holden hand. It highlighted his main conflict in the book and we SURELY know now that Holden doesn't know where to go in life. He's stuck in between adulthood and childhood but he's losing time, so he has to make a decision. He wants to do both at the same time but he can't and he has to choose the right path. His old teacher, Mr. Antolini gave him a reality check, which was what he needed. He needed to know that he needed to think about his life and his future. He had to figure out what we wanted and then do it quick because he was running out of time. No one ever told Holden this so he didn't know, but now I think he's going to realize what he needs to do and try his best to pursue it. He can't just stay a child forever.
"Then all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it." (page 179)
ReplyDeleteThis quote most people would think shows Holden dislikes crying because then he has to be himself when he cries but I think he likes it. Holden likes most sad things because he himself is sad. I would think crying would not only let him express his confusion but capture his sadness. When you cry without sound I think the crying hurts more because you are not releseing your sadness.
"Then, all of the sudden , I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear , but I did it."
ReplyDeleteP:179
I think this shows how insecure Holden is about his feelings. He never expressed himself in this way before, even when fighting Stradlater, or Maurice. He only expressed some of his anger, not all of it. He just he lets things build and build till he just can't take it anymore. This is another big problem for Holden. The fact that he's insecure, makes him unable to share his feelings with others. This makes it difficult for people to relate to him. If people cant relate to him, he feels isolated and sad. Which leads to more feeling suppression and so on and so forth. What Salinger is saying is that when we hide ourselves even from those closest to us, we send ourselves down a vicious spiral that ultimately ends in our spirit breaking.
I definitely agree with you when you say that Holden has never really shown his emotions. I also think that Holden might've started crying because he missed home and Phoebe so much, or because he might actually miss Pencey.
DeleteQuote #25
ReplyDeleteThen something happened. I don't even like to talk about it. I woke up all of a sudden. I don't know what time it was or anything, but I woke up. I felt something on my head, some guy's hand. Boy, it really scared hell out of me. What it was, it was Mr. Antolini's hand. What he was doing was, he was sitting on the floor right next to the couch, in the dark and all, and he was sort of petting me or patting me on the goddam head. Boy, I'll bet I jumped about a thousand feet.
"What the hellya doing?" I said.
"Nothing! I'm simply sitting here, admiring – "
"What're ya doing, anyway?" I said over again. I didn't know what the hell to say – I mean I was embarrassed as hell.
"How 'bout keeping your voice down? I'm simply sitting here – "
"I have to go, anyway," I said – boy, was I nervous! I started putting on my damn pants in the dark. I could hardly get them on I was so damn nervous. I know more damn perverts, at schools and all, than anybody you ever met, and they're always being perverty when I'm around. (pages.191-192)
Is Holden's judgement of Mr.Antolini's gesture extreme and irrational?
I think not. If I were Holden and I woke up to an adult of the same sex who is not related to me patting my head and staring at me, I would probably run away in fear of being abused or harrassed.
There is reasoning to support Holden's theorey. Mr.Antolini asks about Holden's love life and says he is handsome. Also, Holden said his wife was much older than him, so possibly are they married in order to give Mr.Antolini, and possibly Mrs.Antolini, social acceptance and not getting them discriminated against due to their sexual orientation. Also, as disturbing as this sounds, Mr.Antolini was the one who carted off Holden's classmate who committed suicide. Who knows what happened after. These pieces of info about Mr.Antolini give the reader insight into Holden's point of view and cast a completely different light on Mr.Antolini's character.
However, Holden could've just been misinterpreting the gesture. Maybe Antolini was just doing it to comfort Holden, maybe he thinks of him as a son. Maybe him and his wife are truly in love with each other. Maybe he just asked about Holden's love life to keep up a conversation and maybe he actually did carry away Jame's body out of respect and sympathy.
So Holden's hypothesis does not come without proper evidence.
“Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn’t help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it."
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because Holden is finally breaking down and admitting that he really was upset before. He's mentioned his depression, but i feel like he's never been great at expressing his depression or any other emotions he might have. This is the first time in a while that Holden has shown any emotion besides being annoyed, mad, or lonely. This might be another sign of Holden growing up- he's kind of accepting his own emotions and not trying to hide anything from himself. He's becoming less and less phony as the book progresses. I think that in general, people don't really like to show their emotions. It makes many people uncomfortable, feeling like they're letting other people into their own minds and showing them exactly how they feel. Many people, like Holden, might not know exactly how to express their own emotions. Holden's depression and loneliness has probably built up over the course of the book, and now he's finally letting it all out.
"Then all of a sudden i started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me but I did it. I scared the hell out of Phoebe when i started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you started, you just can't stop on a goddam dime. I was sitting on the edge of the bed when I did it, and she put her old arm around my neck, and I put my arm around her, too, but i couldn't stop for a long time."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it shows how much of a strong relationship that Holden shares with his sister. Holden cries because Phoebe gave him some of her Christmas money. That surprised me because Holden doesn't cry around other people because he doesn't want to seem weak. The fact that Holden just starts crying in front of his little sister probably makes her think why is he cry I only gave him money, but she still comforts him trying to make him stop like a sister would do because she cares about her big brother Holden.
I also think that Holden was crying and why he he put his arm around her for so long because he really didn't want to leave Phoebe he cared about her and he would miss her. Also if you think about shouldn't be the other way around instead of the little sister comforting her big brother to make him feel better?
I agree with you Yvonne, I liked this line as well. It really portrays his feelings, something we don't get to see very ofter.
DeleteGood, Yvonne. I wonder why he cries at this particular moment? Why is taking Christmas money from Phoebe the trigger?
Delete"I figured if they caught me, they caught me. I almost wished they did, in a way."
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because of how left out Holden seems. It actually made me sad, to see him want to be caught, so he can stay with Phoebe, deal with his parents, but still be home. I think he might regret leaving, but is happy he at least got to see his sister. What if he goes back, turns around? Do you think he'll do something showing how homesick he is? Or will he try to act tough and forget about it?
Why do you think he "almost wishes" they catch him??
ReplyDelete"Eighty dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. All of a sudden I started to cry. I couldn't help it." (pg. 179)
ReplyDeleteI think this is significant because it shows that Holden does have feelings and that he does care. He is always talking about calling Phoebe up and how he loves her and wants to be with her and can just be himself with her. When he is crying, it is almost like he is letting out all the accumulating bad feelings and is just telling Phoebe everything. It also shows that their family definitely has a lot of money. When I was younger, I never got even close to having ten dollars. WIth their family, if the kid had 200 dollars, the parents would probably never even notice. Why he starts crying, maybe is because this is the first time that he isn't just being given money because he needs it but he is also being shown love. People don't give almost $100 to random strangers, even with friends, someone would only give a few dollars. Phoebe is giving him this money because she loves and cares about him, and that is something Holden is not used to. He just wishes the whole world were like Phoebe.
(the website showed up properly . . . finally)