Post
your reader responses here: Choose a line from the text and explain why
it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem
important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a
connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about
Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in
general?
Then, respond to someone else's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
"A nice telephone voice, mostly. She should've carried a goddam telephone around with her." (Page 54) This quote interested me because of the language he uses to describe her voice. Holden, as it shows, seems to like her voice since its so smooth like an operator. This line was very appealing to me because he gives a compliment, but it sounds still a little rough. Holden doesn't really seem much of a person who gives compliments or if he does, he doesn't mean them. In this quote, its different from what Holden usually says, which is either complaints or what annoys him. Which is why it shocked me to hear Holden complementing the mother of the boy he doesn't like.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with you. This line interested me too. It's weird because as you said, Holden is always complaining or talking about what annoys him but it was different with this woman; I think that when it comes to girls, Holden changes his perspective. Instead of complaining, he compliments. Although in his own perspective of compliment.
DeleteIt was also interesting because on page 54 he also says, "'Rudolf Schmidt', I told her. I didn't feel like giving her my whole life-history. Rudolf Schmidt was the name of the janitor of our dorm". In this quote it kind of further supports what you were saying but also brings along the idea of lying. Holden likes this women and probably afraid that she would ask her son about Holden, made up a name and then lied saying "I didn't feel like giving her my whole life-history", when really he just didn't want her to know the truth about him. I think that Holden lies to protect himself but sometimes he feels bad afterwards.
"I was sort of crying... I put my red hunting hat on, and turned the peak around to the back, the way I liked it, and then I yelled at the top of my goddam voice, 'Sleep tight, ya mororns!'" -page 52
ReplyDeleteThis line was really important because it showed how Holden actually felt about leaving. In the beginning of the book he said that he always needed something to happen so that he knows that he's leaving whether it's sad or happy. When Holden leaves he puts on his red hunting hat that he really likes as well as putting it on in a way that he likes. I think that the hat symbolizes happiness. He was crying because he was sad that he was leaving, but happy because he had a good experience. When he yells "Sleep tight, ya morons!", it symbolizes his "goodbye" or his awareness that he was leaving. He says the quote in a humorous way but I think that Holden will secretly miss them even though he won't admit it. I can understand why Holden is sad about leaving but won't admit it because after all of the things he's said he doesn't want to change his mind and many people can relate to that.
leo lambert
ReplyDeleteDid Holden do the right thing and leave?
After Holden left the dorm to go to New York I feel as if he made the wrong decision. Even though Holden evidently "dislikes" most people, he seem's to desire human contact more and more. As soon as he gets off the train, Holden wants to call someone, especially Jane, but then decides other wise and says he's too nervous and doesn't 'feel like it". However in chapter 8, Holden describes liking the solitude of late-night train rides, but evidently Holden doesn't actually like being alone. Then once he gets to his hotel holden looks out the window. Holden gets sexually aroused and wants to make a date with a girl he meet at a nightclub. After she said she couldn't right that second, Holden becomes impatient and hangs up. All Holden needs is someone who he feels comfortable around, so he could talk and trust them. It was wrong of him to leave the dorm when he was surrounded by people. even if they are not people he "likes" or "dislikes" I still think Holden likes company.
Holden ran away from his problems, like the sadness and loneliness he felt in his dorm, which is very childish and immature. I feel teens today that are around my age do this too.
I agree with your statement. He does seem to want human contact although he does push people away. He would probably be happier if he were back in his dorm in Pencey, around people, but then again he seems to be less destructive alone. He likes to anger people, like the way he agitated Ackley and Stradlater.
DeleteWhy does Holden like to lie so much? There is the scenario when Holden is on the train with Ernest Morrow's mother, and he lies about his identity, he says his name is Rudolf, and lies about his opinion of her son. On page 56, he says, "Then I really started chucking the old crap around.
ReplyDelete"Did he tell you about the elections?" I asked her. "The class elections?"
She shook her head. I had her in a trance, like. I really did." Then Holden goes on and falsely describes how he and some other guys tried to nominate Ernest to run for president, but he was too shy. Holden didn't tell Mrs. Morrow his real name, nor did he tell her his honest opinion of her son. Also, Mrs. Morrow pointed out that "Rudolf" was bleeding, and he lied and said he was bleeding because he was hit by a very icy snowball. Holden didn't seem to want to talk about himself, he didn't want to open up to her, although he did say that he liked her, and that she was attractive. Holden even asked Mrs. Morrow to have a drink with him, but yet he wouldn't tell her his true identity. Does he lie because he doesn't want anyone to know the real him? Is he trying to hide who he really is? I think he wants to be someone else, so he lies to other people about himself so others think he's that person he wants to be. It's natural for us to want to be better, so maybe that's what Holden does, but through lying. Or, he doesn't want anyone to know about him. He could want no one to understand who he really is, so he makes a persona for himself.
I really liked your piece and I completely agree with you! Holden probably feels really insecure and lies to make himself fell better, great points!
DeleteI agree with a lot of the things you're saying. Holden pretends to not care about what other people think, but he really doesn't want anyone, even people he likes, to know the real him. He want people like the woman on the train to think of him in a good light and so lies. If he really was as confident as he says he is, he wouldn't lie constantly as a defense mechanism. I think this quote really did illustrate this. What do you think influenced Holden to need to act thsi way?
Deleteleo lambert
DeleteFirst of all, Holden lies to the woman about her son to make her feel good, so it seems as if he has the right intentions, right? It wouldn't be nice to tell someone their son is loser. I think Holden lies because he doesn't like his reality, so he makes one up. Very deep questions.
I agree with your post a lot. But, I feel like, and again it's just my opinion, that he doesn't lie as much as the readers portray him to. Of course, in the novel, he states himself that he lied to the women. However, like Leo said, it was for good intentions. I'm sure no one wants to hear that their son is a loser, and as he witnessed what a nice lady she is, he decided to tell her something that'll make her smile. And I think the only reason he lied about his name, was to not make his identity known in case she mentions it to her son. He secretly can enact his emotions, but doesn't want others to think so.
DeleteI agree with much of what you said. However, I also agree with Leo and Rina that Holden, like any other person, praised the woman's son out of courtesy. I think that this little lie is what caused him to really get in to his "fiction". Like he said, once he starts lying, he simply can't stop.
Delete"So I ended up not calling anybody." pg. 59
ReplyDeleteThis line and whole passage stood out to me because it shows how lonely Holden is-but also that this loneliness is self-inflicted. In this scene Holden decides to call someone from a phone both in New York City but rejects each person he might call for one reason or the other. Either Holden doesn't have any friends...or he finds reasons not to get to close to people. In the real world, many people who have had hardships in life (such as the death of Holden's brother at a young age)are afraid of getting too connected or invested in the lives of others to others. They don't want to get hurt. I think this applies to Holden's show of not giving a damn about anything, his constant lying, and of calling anyone and everyone a phony or a moron. The way he ends up calling no one in the end illustrates how he'd rather be alone (and safe, free from commitment) than close to any one person, like his brother D.B., his friends from school, or Jane Gallagher.
I agree with the fact that you believe that this quote shows how lonely he is. On page 62, he explains about how someone "normal" would react to a girl he likes and he compares it to how he acts. He imagines being with a girl and it shows his loneliness.
DeleteI agree with you becuase it shows how he is trying to reach out to others but stops because he doesn't want to get to close to anyone to then lose them like he lost his brother. Personally i think he is just confuse and that why he doesn't call anyone at the end as you said. But also i diagree with you about him not giving a damn because in the class we talked about how he does care about what people think he just doesnt show it.
Delete"Practically the whole car was empty, because it was pretty late and all, but she sat down next to me, instead of an empty seat..." Pg. 54
ReplyDeleteThis line did not only stand out to me but i can also connect to it. I think anyone and everyone who takes the bus or train can relate to this happening. In my mind i always wonder "why must you choose this seat." This line stood out to me because it goes back to his humorous and sarcastic personality. This is also the part where he realized that the "suspicious" lady who sat next to him was the parent of another student at Pencey Prep. He still however lied about his identity and instead of telling Ernest's mother his real name he creates one. This shows us the imaginative part of his personality and how he wants to be something he's not.
Why does holden like to lie so much?
ReplyDeleteI think that holden really lies so that it makes him feel better. In chapter 8 through 9 he goes on the subway after being kicked out of Pencey. He meets a woman who happens to be Ernest Murrow's mother. And for a while he "chews the fat" with her, though almost everything he says is a lie, he states that he was friends with Ernest Murrow, which in fact he actually hated, and he tries to make himself seem as like able as possible though he really isn't, since most of us are just phonies to him. Though he did lie to this woman, can't not help feel, that maybe after he "chewed the fat" with this woman with all the lies that he told, i can't help feeling like, maybe he regretted that. He did state himself that she was pleasent to talk to.
"I felt like giving somebody a buzz... but as soon as I was inside, I couldn't think of anybody to call up."-page 59
ReplyDeleteHolden was a loner because he spends most of his time criticizing others around him and by the end of the day, he doesn't have someone to talk to. By focusing on judging the negativity of others, he doesn't get the opportunity to see people from a positive point of view. He doesn't have anybody to talk to because he thinks they aren't worthy of his time. It's sad how he doesn't trust anybody to share his thoughts and emotions but instead, he has to keep it all inside. But even when he actually calls someone up to go out for a cocktail, the reciever turns him down just like he decides against the idea of calling the people he thought about calling. I guess this quotation tells everyone that sometimes, you have to view the world around you in another perspective to actually see the whole picture or else you're missing on something big that you will regret in the future.
I agree with you Holden is a loner, but I don't think it's because he spends most of his time criticizing others, he probably chooses to be a loner. It's not that he believes people aren't worthy of his time, he probably just hasn't found that someone who actually understands him that he can open up to and express his feelings with. Maybe in the past he did have someone, but they had let him down maybe someone like his brother. We have to remember that people change because of their past. You are right though sometimes we have to view the world in a different perspective before we miss out on something that can effect our future in a positive way.
DeleteI chose the same quote and i 100% agree with you. By Holden always judging others he has missed out on having friendships with anyone.
DeleteBand - B
ReplyDelete'He was all alone, too."
This line stood out to me because Holden admits to himself that he was alone. The way he was saying it, was that it was late at night, and he had nobody to call, or talk to, but he really ment that he was alone. Holden felt like everybody was judging his every move, and he couldn't even talk to his parents. At one point, when he is in the taxi, he mistakenly gave the taxi driver his home address, and claimed that it was out of habit. I think Holden wanted to feel at home. He started to talk about how he was the idiot of his whole family. He thinks so low of himself, and believes everybody else does, even his own family. Then, once again, in the taxi, Holden wants to go somewhere where he won't see anybody that he knows. He ends up going to a weird hotel, with a bunch of 'phony's'. He said that he felt normal there.
I completely agree with what you're saying and when you brought up the idea of that Holden just wants to be at home and fit in, it reminded me a lot of the book, The Outsiders, where all those characters just wanted to fit in and yet, like Holden, they go through all this unnecessary steps to make them what others want them to be. It makes me think that in a way, when trying to change himself and fit in, he loses an important part of who he is.
DeleteI agree 100% because as we read the book we can see how he is alone and doesnt have anyone to be there. this shows how as a person he is growing and learning that in life you have to accept the things you dont like as well. Like when you said he said he felt normal when he was in a hotel with a much of phony's. I really like your connections and i think we mis judged him.
Delete"I don't believe this is a smoker, Rudolph," she said. Ruldoph. That killed me. (pg. 55)
ReplyDeleteWhy would Holden tell a lie if he's going to complain about it later?
If Holden cared enough about who he is just to make himself more likable to some lady, why does he complain about it after? He said the only reason he didn't want to tell his true name was because he, " . . . didn't feel like giving her my whole life story." (pg. 55) Like anybody asked for it! I don't understand what he is so afraid of and isn't being known as a liar to others the last thing you want to happen? I feel like he is trying to make himself known to the world in his own messed up way and yet constantly contradicting himself; that makes him even more confused as to who he is. Even though the book is just about him, he still makes himself seem like a really self centered guy who wants attention and has too much self doubt, without letting the whole world know. I think he is mainly worried about his self image, he just doesn't know how to show the right one. He is clearly socially awkward but he doesn't want help. His whole personality and being definitely falls under the stereotypical teenager; confused yet not wanting help, careless on the outside yet freaking out on the inside. Although he lies and it doesn't give a good sense of who he is, there are some things like this, the confused liar who wants to be one thing but hates what he has to do to get there,
What's up with that?
"Women kill me. They really do. I don't mean I'm oversexed-although I am quite sexy. I just like them, I mean. They 're always leaving their god damn bags out in the middle of the aisle."-pg 54
ReplyDeleteI thought this line was essential to Holden as an entire person. The part where he states that he;s not oversexed although he's sexy, shows what great contradiction lies within Holden. He proves himself to be quite hypocritical throughout the entire novel, like the time he argued with his roommate and later claimed to be a pacifist. In addition, the last part of the quote truly shows who he is as a person I believe. He basically professes his love for women, and proves this love by stating that they leave their bags everyone. It's quite interesting because the lady on the train that put her bags in the middle of the aisle, was causing an obstacle for the other people. She was only worried about herself, and not quite aware of how she'd be affecting others. I feel as though Holden claimed to love such women because he himself could be the lady's clone. HOWEVER, he can't necessarily be claimed self-centered. He's simply a person detaching his emotions from the human eye. Quite frankly, we all do it at some point. Some more than others.
" I got hit with a snowball," I said . "One of those very icey ones."
ReplyDeleteThis line kind of suprises me in a way. It helps prove the discussion we had in the class. About him being the best liar. It kind of helps to prove that he is a liar. First off, in the beginning he lies about his name to the women, but alsoe makes up lies about the bruises on his face which is amazing. It seems like everything that comes out of his mouth are lies. It makes me wonder if this is just a phase that he is going through or its just him. As I read along, I hope to be able to understand that. This helps to connect to teens now at days. Sometimes lies fly out of there mouths without them even noticing. It shows that Holden is in fact a liar. It helps to notice that it is really hard to believe people in this world.
I agree with you when you say "It kind of helps to prove that he is a liar." In addition, if Holden is a liar isn't he also a hypocrite? He is a hypocrite because, in the book, he is always talking about how he hates phony people. When he is lying, he is saying many things that are simply fake, or "phony." You give the example where he is on the train and gives the woman a fake name. When he does that, he is being phony because he is pretending to be something that he's not.
DeleteWhy does Holden make negative judgements/ opinions on everyone he meets?
ReplyDeleteHolden is not a mean character, he is just socially awkward and stubborn. Whether, it's his sister whom he adores yet says is too attached and emotional, to an older bellboy's profession, which he thinks is dumb. He always sees the glass as half empty instead of half full and seems to have difficulty admitting to personal flaws. If Holden does admit to a personal flaw, he later attempts to cover it up or contradict it. Everyone is bad in some way in his opinion and the unfavorable qualities of those who surround, no matter how insignificant, always overrule the more positive qualities.
A really good question that I've never thought about before. I also agree with you that it's him being stubborn, or maybe it's because he's a teenager and is just angry and having to judge every person he meets since he's moody. Nice thought!
Deletehow has holden grown through this chapters?
ReplyDeleteHolden begins to grow because he accepts himself as a person and knows that he is alone by his choice. Holden realizes that he is alone and has no one to call to talk to which get him to open his eyes. But also when he goes to the werid hotel he said he feels normal with the phony's. He might not think that he is a phony but he doesnt know he feels at home with them. After he lost his brotehr he began to lie a lot more because he was alone. I feel that we misjudged him because all humans lie and i feel like he turns to this to gain cofident, but who are we to blame if we all turn to something to feel better about oursleves.
I agree, in the real world we have to prove ourselves to people. If you stand waiting for people you will be alone, but if you put yourself out there someone must respond. I think when Holden was at Pencey he knew how cool he was and he just expected other people to know, but he realized that they didn't, his last day at Pencey his "friendships" started to crumble. Stradlater didn't apperciate him, Ackely didn't care what he had to say. When he got home and had no one to he realized.
DeleteWhy does Holden choose to lie about realities to make others feel better? I think Holden tells lies so he can have control over big ideas that scare him. The fact that many questions in the world don't have answers scares a lot of people so they tell lies to maintain some sort of control over life. What confuses me is that I view Holden as a very opinionated and intelligent person and i don't know why he would feel he must lie to make a difference. Also Holden tends to be pestimistic and sinical, I wonder if by lieing to these people he thinks his lies are almost " improving the world." He claims to be doing this out of fun or boredom but I think it must be a lot more serious.
ReplyDeleteI like how unique your question and your opinion is but I disagree with some of your answer. I think Holden's lies have become almost like a reflex, somethings that comes so naturally to him that he can no longer control it. He is struggling to maintain a view on the world as it actually is but I think he has started to lie so constantly that he is starting to believe some of them. I agree with you that he is intelligent but as to why he must tell lies in order to feel as though he is making a difference, I believe he isn't trying to make a difference, he is instead trapped by his lies in a somewhat made-up environment and this is just how he wants to imagine everything, yet it's become so much a part of him that he can no longer differentiate in his mind what is a lie, and what is reality.
Delete"I think if you don't really like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her at all, and if you do like her, then you're supposed to like her face, and if you like her face, you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it, like squirting water all over it." (p.62)
ReplyDeleteI thought this line was very sweet and really demonstrates Holden's personality. I thought it really shows Holden's caring aspect of his personality. Holden really loves people that are innocent and not fake. I believe Holden thinks of women as innocent which is why he cares about how men treat them. In addition, he's is somewhat of a hypocrite, because he hates people who are fake, or phony, but yet he constantly lies, which is actually the very essence being phony. Holden's personality also applies to the world and people in general. People try so hard not to be what they dislike the most in people, but by focusing so much on what you don't want to be, you somehow become that very thing without even realizing it.
I really agree with how Holden is hypocritical about hating phonies and then he lies, I also wrote about that. Another reason you know he care about women is because he was so worried for the girl he used to know that went on a date with Stradlater. Strangely, though, Holden tried to grab a cocktail with the mother of a student he knew.
DeleteKatya
Matthew Baldwin
ReplyDelete“Just to stop lying. Once I get started, I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours.”
I just think that he is over reaction way too much. He can’t lie for hours and hours, and if he can that is really bad, he just strings lies together. Like when he was on the train. He was talking to the woman on the train who was the mother of a kid that he hated that went to the school he went to. He also said his name was the name of the janitor at the school, instead of his own. But to top it off, he said that he had a brain tumor and that he was having surgery, and that is why he was going home, instead of getting kicked out.
This lying problem is a really big problem!!!!!
I agree with what you said on Holden's lying. If he continues to lie throughout the book he could have serious issues. I am predicting that something bad will happen to Holden on account of his lying. People shouldn't see Holden's lying as a mentor, but as what not to do. There will be a moral to the story if something happens to Holden because of his lies.
Delete"The hotel was lousy with perverts. I was probably the only normal person in the whole place-and that not saying much."
ReplyDeleteI think that this important because it shows how Holden sees himself. Obviously he doesn't see himself as a normal person, but, since he is so objective about himself, he can give reasons why. He has people to "blame" for how he is, but since he is in capable of seeing things through the eyes of others, he judges the couple that was playing with the water badly. He refuses to see people through their own eyes. To me, this says something about how we view the world in general. If we are not careful, it can be easy to judge others without seeing things through their eyes. I think that Salinger was trying to use Holden's thoughts as a cautionary measure, as well as use them to build Holden's character.
I definitely agree with you- think that Holden really does blame others for most things he does. This connects to the idea we were talking about in class, about how Holden lies about a lot of things and he's an unreliable narrator.
Delete"Sensitive. That killed me. That guy Morrow was about as sensitive as a goddam toilet seat."
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because Holden is basically describing how he hates when people are wrong, or when people lie. There are a few other examples of this throughout the book, and I think this is very ironic. Holden has stated numerous times that he thinks he's a great liar, and that it's hard for him to stop lying once he starts. The fact that Holden is a liar who hates other liars brings me to the conclusion that Holden is a hypocrite. Many people do the same thing as Holden is doing- they find things that are annoying or flaws in other people, when they do the same thing (or maybe even worse). I think people do this because they're annoyed with themselves, but since it's hard for them to change their own habits they take it out on other people with the same traits or habits instead. Hypocrisy seems to be a commonly found trait in people, both in The Catcher in the Rye and in the real world.
I totally agree with this. It is like what we were talking about in class today, I feel like Holden bottles up his feelings, and doesn't say them out loud to other people, but will show his feelings through his thoughts. I think that you touched upon this really well!
DeleteI agree with you. I definitely think your evidence shows Holden being ironic. Your quote backs up your evidence as well. Your quote proves Holden is a hypocrite. Good job!
Delete“I couldn’t think of anybody to call up” (59)
ReplyDeleteA big part of Holden’s personality is his relationship with people. In the book we learned about several of his relationships with people. With his “friend” Ackley he says he is annoying but yet he asked if Ackley was allowed to tag along to the movies. The reason why Holden doesn’t like Ackley is because Ackley goes into Holden’s room blabbing about everything but isn’t necessarily giving Holden his direct attention. Another relationship that shapes Holden’s personality is his relationship with his roommate Stradlater, in the book Stradlater comes off as a womanizer and “cool kid”. I feel like he thinks: Holden oh yeah I don’t have time for him. Holden did the homework assignment for Stradlater because I think he wanted to please him and give attention from. Holden acts to way he does because he will do anything for some personal attention.
"Rudolf Schmidt. I told her. I didn't feel like giving her my whole life history. Rudolf Schmidt was the name of the janitor of our dorm." -Page 54-55
ReplyDeleteThis sentence really stood out to me because it was the first time I saw Holden tell a lie. Before in class we were discussing the quote where HOlden says that he's the best liar in the world and there was suspicion if we could trust him with this statement. The fact that the woman believed him leads to wondering if Holden is a reliable narrator. I always thought he was but this is now proof for me. This also exposes the sneaky teenager side of Holden which we have seen a little bit. Most teenagers can relate to this even if they're lying, but they still do at Starbucks.
"I felt like giving somebody a buzz...but as soon as I was inside, I couldn't think of anybody to call up." PG 59
ReplyDeleteIn this quote, I get a sense of loneliness on Holden's part because he wanted to call and talk to someone but couldn't think of anybody to call. This makes me think that his harsh judgments of people all the time causes him not to have any one that is close to him that he can just call and talk to, instead he makes harsh accusations and judgments of people based on their appearance.
Katya Bakal-Schlomann
ReplyDeleteSummary of passage: Holden was on the train with Mrs.Morrow, and he was lying about her son Earnest. He was also flirting with her.
I think it is very strange that Holden lies a lot because lying is fake or phony, and Holden despises phony. Maybe Holden doesn't consider lying phony because it entertains him. I think Holden gets a kick out of lying because it makes others seem silly or thick by not catching the lie.
I also think Holden lies because it is almost his way of storytelling or sharing his imagination. I think that's why Holden likes books so much; because even though books are technically phony, for Holden they are another world to take him out of his lousy life. Holden doesn't mind a fake reality, it's just fake people that really bother him. They bother me too because they're very unpredictable because you don't know what they're truly like.
Seeing Holden interact with Mrs.Morrow was quite strange because he was trying to flirt with a fortyish year old women which is very wrong. What's worse is she's married and is the mom of someone he knew. I think this shows Holden doesn't know all the boundaries of who he is allowed to date or flirt with. It may also show age doesn't matter to him.
"It's really too bad that so much crumby stuff is a lot of fun sometimes"
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because in reality people tend to do a lot of crumby stuff without realizing it at the moment, but we know most of the time our actions become consequences that can effect another emotionally or physically. Before he makes this statement he talks about if you don't like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her; even though he wouldn't mind doing crumby stuff if the opportunity ever came up. Holden seems to know his boundaries, but since he's human he doesn't follow the boundaries that he has set for himself. We could all relate to this because people usually know right from wrong, but it's a lot harder to do the right thing.
“I felt like giving someone a buzz… I couldn’t think of anybody to call up” (59).
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows two familiar feelings from Holden. They are loneliness and desperation. This shows Holden’s loneliness because Holden is all by himself in Penn Station with no one that he can call. We have seen this when Holden was the only one on top of the hill and in his dorm. This quote also shows desperation from Holden because it is really late at night and he still feels like he has to be with someone. Desperation has also occurred when Holden wanted the company of Ackley who he doesn’t even like and when he tries to get Ernest Morrow’s mom to have cocktails with him. When Holden is with Ernest Morrow’s mom he lies about how good of a kid Ernest is so that he will have the company of his mom.
Ch. 7 and 8 (Just realized I posted in the wrong forum earlier today)
ReplyDelete"I usually buy a ham sandwich and about four magazines. If I'm on a train at night, I can usually even read one if those dumb stories in a magazine without puking. You know." (53)
A magazine is something that most likely is aimed to interest the majority of society. Holden hates how phony these articles are but he claims he still can read them. He exaggerates by saying that normally he would puke reading the magazine stories but won't in the night. At the end he says "you know" as if the reader understands what he's talking about. I personally don't understand what he's talking about. If he hates the magazine articles so much and normally figuratively pukes how can he read them normally during the night?
"'Would you care to stop on the way and join me for a cocktail? On me. I'm loaded."
ReplyDelete"Can't do it, Mac. Sorry.' He certainly was good company. Terrific personality."
This quote shows how Holden is a good liar. He invites his cab driver to a cocktail when Holden himself isn't even old enough to drink. The quote also shows how he uses sarcasm in his writing. Holden kept trying to ask questions to the cab driver and he found his questions as a joke and he still didn't say anything after that until they got to 19th Street. He wasn't the type of person that was good company or a terrific personality. Holden likes to speak his mind in the book whether its sarcasm or criticism to certain people.
Jenna Lief
ReplyDelete"Then I started reading this timetable I had in my pocket. Just to stop lying. Once I get started, I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours." (58) This line does not confuse me whatsoever. He is always bragging about his lying skills. I am not surprised that he did it again. It popped out to me because the bragging is starting to annoy me. His constant bragging about things that shouldn't be bragged about makes me ask the questions: is he as smart as he makes himself out to be? Does he know what's right for him?
Another question that comes to mind as well is: why does he always have to put himself up all the time? The way he is always upping himself makes it seem like he has some sort of self esteem issue that he's trying to cover up with bragging. It is hard for me to see who Holden really is.
Jenna, I definitely agree with you. Doesn't he feel some sort of regret lying so much? It's really sad to read about this boy who can't even tell his own story without making himself unreliable and untrustworthy. I think he brags about nothing to make himself feel good. I think he has no actual place in the world right now, not in school, not in a sport, not in a family (yet, anyway), etc. He only has himself right now to, if you will, amuse/entertain him, or whatever he needs to motivate him to keep trying at whatever he's doing. What's keeping him busy (lying) is probably all he's got right now, don't you think?
DeleteI agree with Jenna and Samantha. Holden is a very complicated person. It's very difficult to see what is going on in the back of his head because he is always saying things about himself and trying to make a joke like everything is fine, but it's not. You can see it deeply that he hides who he really is inside himself, and he tries to be something that is not even him. Maybe he really does have low self-esteem.
DeleteSamantha Ramirez
ReplyDeleteBand B
"That guy Morrow was about as sensitive as a goddam toilet seat."
This line really stood out to me in the reading today. It was interesting to read how he related sensitivity to a toilet seat. Did he mean like those soft, cushioned, warm seats or those hard, unbalanced, uncomfortable seats? It took me a little bit of time to really grasp what he was trying to say here, but I came to this conclusion: He mean't that Morrow was not sensitive at all. He was being very sarcastic, especially while on this roll of lies with Morrow's mother. I think he couldn't help himself to such a good time to make a joke. Relating someone to a toilet seat would be offensive though, don't you think? Why of all things? Did he make you sick? Did you not like the kid so much? What he'd do so bad to be compared to such an disgusting thing? This is what was running through my mind when I read this line, and that's why it stood out to me.
There wasn't really a specific quote for me, but the whole scene of him on the train talking to Ms. Morrow is priceless. We've seen Holden as a lazy, spoiled kid, the one who's a failure in school, the one who thinks it's funny to leave behind all of the equipment for his fencing team, the one who's a chain smoker. This is Holden's external self. We haven't totally seen really deep into his character yet, though there have been hints of his good-heartedness, his internal self. This is one of them. Hoden, instead of assuming the worst of Ms. Morrow because he hates her son Ernest's GUTS, has a very friendly conversation with her. Boy does he put on an act, but an act of KINDNESS. Instead of telling on Ernest and showing her what a horrible little human being she's created, he makes her seem like an angel. This is a taste of who Holden Caufield really is, kind, considerate, unselfish, but just insecure and troubled, He even asks her to join him for a drink! Now this breaks my heart. You can see Holden is just looking for someone to spend time with, someone who will listen to him, someone he can share his thoughts with. He's in desperate need of a real friend. This is a deeply moving moment for me. This shows me that Holden is really not who he appears to be. That on the inside, he's a kind hearted, thoughtful, but just an altogether wholly lonely boy. This scene takes place on pages 54-58.
ReplyDeleteThis is a really thoughtful response, Thomas. I agree with you that his conversation with Mrs. Morrow shows his kindness. This is ironic, however, because he is lying to her the whole time. Question for you though: Why do you think he likes her so much, when he hates her son? Why doesn't he assume that she's phony, too?
Delete"I think if you don't really like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her at all, and if you do like her then you are supposed to like her face, and if you like her face, you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it, like squirting water all over it." Chapter 9 (page 81)
ReplyDeleteWhat I liked about this quote is that shows that Holden isn't that bad boy as we all think he is, and what he describes himself. If you really analyze it deeply you will see that he actually tries to see things in a good perspective. Even though he judges people, and even himself sometimes he seems to be interested in what people do, and it fascinates him. I like the way he observes things and keep it to himself. He is not a person that judges people and go around telling everybody, and that's what I like about Holden's personality. Therefore, maybe he keeps too much to himself that ends up hiding who he is.
"Once I get started, I can go on for hours."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it sparked questions. If he could lie for hours, how true can his stories be? He was lying about Ernest and he was telling his mother all these good things that make Ernest look like an angel. Why would he do that? That's probably because that's what Ernest's mother wanted to hear. If that's the case is he just telling us stories that WE want to hear? He can be contradicting and confusing at times.
"If I'm on a train at night, I can usually even read one of those dumb stories in a magazine without puking. You know. One of those stories with a lot of phony, lean jawed guys named David in it, and a lot of phony girls named Linda or Marcia that are always lighting all the goddam David's pipes for them." -page 53
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because again he is being an unreliable narrator. This is because he always mentions in his book how much he hates "phonies" but he enjoys reading about them so much. Doesn't that kind of make him a phony? I guess it sort of does because why spend so much time excessing about how much you hate phonies when your sitting down reading about them. However, at the same time I feel like there is a little bit of envy coming from him. I can tell because of when he said "lighting all the goddamn pipes for David's". I felt this way because it kind of sounded like he wanted to be David and have a LInda or Marcia light a pipe for him.
Matthew Baldwin
ReplyDelete"A marriage needs love. And God. And a little money.That's all. The rest you can deal with,. It's not about black or white." (233)
I think this quote, after thinking about it after reading the chapter, shows how people other than Dennis family and Ruth think totally differently than other people back then. Ruth tell James how people were racist against Ruth and Denis behind her back and to her face. When Ruth say, And God, I think she foreshadows how she converts to Christianity. This chapter tell us a lot about how Ruth got to where she is now and also what James wants to know about his mom. In class we were talking about when do you thinks this interview or talk between Ruth and James happened, well i think it happened after he is done with the book. I think he interviews Ruth, or his mom, after he learns about her him self from people in Suffolk.
3 questions:
When did this talk between James and Ruth actually happen?
Why were people just so mean to interracial marriages?
Why is James so interested in his moms past?