Wednesday, October 17, 2012
B-Band: Chapters 16 & 17
Post your responses here! Remember: Choose an actual line from the text. Use the text to reflect on the world and human nature. There's no right answers here. The point is to use this writing to push your thinking forward. Ask questions! Wonder about things. Look closely at the text. Respond to someone else's response. This blog will be graded out of 5 points.
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"Alfred Lunt and Lynn Fontanne were the old couple, and they were very good, but I didn't like them much. They were different, though, I'll say that. They didn't act like people and they didn't act like actors. It's hard to explain. They acted more like they knew they were celebrities and all. I mean they were good, but they were too good."
ReplyDelete-Chap. 17 page 164
I think what Holden is trying to describe in this quote is that those actors were not acting real. They were not acting because it's what they love and learned to do, but they were acting knowing that they were celebrities. Overall, he means that they were not showing they true talent. They actually forget about being actors. Holden feels in some way that those actors are phonies like Ernie playing the piano. The fame lead Ernie to forget about being a good piano player. He knows that people will always clap for him, so he doesn't put a lot of effort on what he does. So, basically Holden thinks that people like that aren't real. Which is a really hypocritical statement. Holden isn't real himself because he trying to discover who he is. So, he never shows what he is truly feeling to others. We are only able to know his emotions and feelings because we are inside his head and I think at least he is true to himself sometimes.
I think that line stands out to me because it shows various thoughts about what Holden thinks, and it also shows his personality. The fact where Holden describes the actors, and then mentions that they were not acting like people nor actors really stand out to me also because I can picture in my head, and the first thing that comes up is that the actors were not being real. So, I think the whole point of this quote is to tell the reader that fame should not replace your talent. Which I agree with Holden.
I agree with your comment. Now there are a lot of people famous for doing crazy things or for being rich or for making bad decisions. Talent isn't necessarily a requirement for fame anymore, and I think this was true in the 1950s too. Holden must hate all actors because they pretend to be people they aren't(act PHONY) for a living. But maybe his hatred of actors also has to do with D.B. leaving him to work with actors and screenplays in Hollywood.
DeleteYes Francesca, I thought so too! Holden has lots of hate in his heart.
Delete"The worst part was, the jerk had one of those very phony, Ivy League voices, one of those very tired, snobby voices." page 128.
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of many things. First off, when we first started reading this book we saw Holden as a very wealthy and someone who was very ignorant. However, now the shoes on the other foot and he's pointing out that someone else is snobby. I think Holden gets most irritated when he doesnt get the attention from the person he wants it from, and then he critisizes everyone around him. Second off, he compared the voice to an Ivy League voice. It almost seems as if Holden has a problem with every little thing and doesnt mind talking about other people or stuff. He can be considered a hipprocrit because he hates when people act like something they arent although he lies 99% of the time. Lastly, He called the person a Jerk and phony. Holden doesnt know the person and never spoke to him to know how he really is. I think this part is kind of relating to his brother because his brother writes what people want to hear and the act was written based off what people would like to see.
I agree with you, Holden does lie to himself all the time, he can't help it, I feel like that became part of him. I feel like in our society we tend to judge a person before meeting and making assumptions. Holden seemd to feel alone so he finds people's flaws or things he finds wrong on everyone which is wrong in my opinion. I feel like during every person there is that one point in life, you feel lost and i think that is holden right now.
Delete" But the worst part was that you could tell they wanted to go to the movies. I couldn't stand looking at them. I can understand somebody going to the movies because there is nothing else to do, but someone really wants to go, and even walks fast as to get there quicker, then it depresses the hell out of me."
ReplyDeleteAs I keep reading, Holden is such an amazing and unexpected character. He seems to really have a negative feeling for happiness. Its like he really wants to be happy and enjoy life like every one does,but nobosy gives him what he wants. He grieves and as he says, he is depressed. The world now at days seems to act like that, they seem to try to ignore their feelings towards on another and themselves. Meaning that they wish others could read and understand their minds, but the world is not like that, you have to show the world what you believe in order to be heard. Holden just wants someone to listen, I think thats why he had such a great connected with sally and wanted to be with Sunny. He wants to be babied and sometimes people in the real world dont want to grow up. They can't tirn the page in life, which makes it difficult for themselves. They try to lie to themselves and they can;t beacause deep inside they know what they want, but they dont work for it, they want it to be handed to them and life doesn't work that way, you have to earn what you want and have.
i agree with you in a few things. i do think he is a complicated character because if finds happeness in a differnt way than most people. i dont think he wants to be babied i think that as a child he didnt get enough attention and now more then ever he needs some to hear him out so he does turn to Sally like you mention. i also think that he does lie to him self even though he knows that he is alone and is a phoney as well.
DeleteI agree. I think that Holden doesn't want to be babied. However, i do think that he does want the innocence of being a child, which makes him so complicated. I think, when he was little, he just wanted to grow up, because he hated being babied. However, now, like many other people, he just wants to be little again. He misses that innocence he had as a child.
Delete"'Which museum?' I asked her. She shrugged her shoulders, sort of. 'I don't know,' she said. 'The museum.' 'I know, but the one where the pictures are, or the one where the Indians are?' 'The one where the Indians.''Thanks a lot'" pg. 119
ReplyDeleteI thought this quote is significant because it reveals that Holden really knows how to talk to kids. Instead of asking the little girl about the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the American Museum of Natural History, he inquires about the museum with Indians and the one with pictures. Holden understands kids, and makes an effort to ensure they understand him. He also respects kids-maybe their innocence. Holden doesn't lie to children like he does to adults, or purposely condescend and confuse them the way adults act towards Holden himself. Holden thanks this little girl, and only says good things about the boy on the sidewalk and Phoebe. He doesn't call them phonies or morons. I think Holden wishes we lived in a radically honest world, where everyone is themselves and speaks their mind. He hates the way others and himself are forced to lie and mask their thoughts or personality, to abide by society's conventions. Holden admires and respects children because they live their lives honestly and free of societal norms. They haven't learned to blend in and not question the world, yet. Maybe Holden wishes people didn't have to.
I definitely agree with your statement. Holden seems to be fond of kids and know how to communicate with them. He seems to really enjoy talking about children such as his brother Allie and his sister Phoebe. I think Holden thinks that children ARE real and not phonies that's why he doesn't judge them unlike others.
DeleteFirst of all, I totally agree with your moment about how Holden seems to have a better bond with kids than older people. But you said that he hates the way others and himself are forced to lie. Why do you think they are forced to lie and from who? I think he is saying that when you grow up, you have to live up to the expectations of others around you and you are forced to lie to have it easier and that's what make them phonies. They choose easy rather than challenge themselves for the better.
Delete"Boy, it made me happy all of a sudden. I could hardly wait to get to the park to see if old Phoebe was around so that I could give it to her." Pg. 116
ReplyDeleteEveryone has that one person that is younger than you and because of their innocence you like being around them. For Holden its his little sister who makes him happy and at his age he goes through a lot and the thoughts of her make him smile. For me i look up at my little cousin becuase she doesnt things that i know are stupid and not right but it puts a smile on my face. Just like Holden looks up at Phoebe this happens because there is a time when you need to be around younger people to get your mind off of things.
This type of relationship that Holden has with Phoebe usually happens when people are sad or feel lost. When i began turning to my cousin i had just lost my grandmother and just to have a child knew nothing about what was going on helped me forget everything. In this world many things go on that make people sad and go through lonesome like Holden its a matter of finding your "Phoebe". I did, did you?
I completely agree, innocence is something to cherish because you wont always have it. The world looks upon small children in a certain way because they are amazed with how little they know compared to themselves. Holden misses the days of his innocence and that is exactly why he likes to talk to his younger sister, Phoebe.
Delete"Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be so much older or anything. It wouldn't be that, exactly. You'd just be different, that's all. You'd have an overcoat on this time. Or the kid that was your partner in line the last time had got scarlet fever and you'd have a new partner. Or you'd have a substitute taking the class, instead of Miss Aigletinger. Or you'd heard your mother and father having a terrific fight in the bathroom. Or you'd just passed by one of those puddles in the street with gasoline rainbows in them. I mean you'd be different in some way--I can't explain what I mean. And even if I could, I'm not sure I'd feel like it" -Page 121-122
ReplyDeleteI think this quote was significant and powerful. Holden mentioned how happy he was looking back at this childhood memory. He enjoyed going to the museum every Saturday and found joy in these simple things. Then, he mentioned being different. Not in the sense that you'd be older and more mature looking, but I think he was talking about your mentality. Holden longs for the innocence and genuineness of being a child. Never has he judged a child, in fact, he always praised them. The reason for this is children AREN'T phony. They are true to themselves and to the world. They don't find the need to ACT phony because they don't know how to. Holden wants to be a child again and I can definitely understand why. You can't really expect much from children and there aren't as many responsibilities. I think when you grow older, people's expectations of you become higher, which gives room to be fake. For instance, if you have a teacher you don't like, you CAN'T be disrespectful and not pay attention during her lessons, although you despise her, you have to pretend to be obedient and attentive for a good grade. Being a child is so much easier than being a teenager and I think this is how Holden feels.
“The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody’d move. You could go there a hundred thousand times, and that Eskimo would still be just finished catching those two fish, the birds would still be on their way south, the deers would still be drinking out of that water hole, with their pretty antlers and their pretty, skinny legs, and that squaw with the naked bosom would still be weaving that same blanket. Nobody’d be different. The only thing that would be different was you.”
ReplyDeleteI thin that the main thing that Holden hates is change. He hates growing up, he hates people beginning to expect more of him, and he hates seeing other people who are supposed to be so innocent, and watching them become grown up. This quote really stood out to me because it shows this good memory Holden has of going to the Museum of Natural History. He likes it so much, because he remembers all of these great exhibits, but mainly because he knows that those exhibits will never change. Even today, in 2012, almost all of them are still there. I think that the main reason that he hates growing up, is because he wants to remain innocent. This is because, after people loose their innocence, to Holden, they become phonies. The only people that Holden likes are people who stay true to themselves, or are little kids with innocence. Allie and Phoebe, his two younger siblings, are his favorite people in the world, mainly because they are not Phonies, and still have innocents. D.B, his brother, is a phony in Holden’s eyes because he did not remain true to himself, and “prostituted himself”. He stopped writing good stories, ones that he liked, and started writing stories that only everyone else liked.
I agree with you, I agree that Holden doesn't want to loose his innocence because he feels he will become a fake. I also agree with the fact that you said that he loves his two younger siblings the most because they were innocent and true to themselves and not trying to appear something they aren't. I also think you chose a great line I never thought of it the way you did but after reading your post I now do.
Delete"In the first place, I hate actors. They never act like people. They just think they do. Some of the good ones do, in a very slight way, but not in a way that's fun to watch."-page 117.
ReplyDeleteHolden is quite the critic; He tends to think critically of various aspects of life. When it comes to actors, he views them as what he refers to as "phonies" because actors are never like themselves whilst performing. Holden prefers those who are who they are and embrace themselves for what they are as an individual. In a global perspective, people tend to hide their true selves from others because they do not want to take a form of critisism for something that cannot be altered like ones' personality; it cannot be changed. There is also a great sense of insecurity in the world because there are traits that would be considered desirable to have and in most cases, people claim to have these traits because they want others around them to see them in a positive light. Overall, actors are like chameleons; they adapt to any personality that they are supposed to portray and in Holden's perspective, that makes them huge "phonies".
This is a really great insight. I've never thought of connecting the two things he hates before. Good job!
DeleteHi Connor! I agree with you, Holden has a special hate towards actors! I mentioned that in my paragraph too, and also Francesca made a comment above saying that the reason for that is because of his brother D.B that left him. Great connections, keep it up!
Delete“He was singing that song, “If a body catch a body coming through the rye.” He had a pretty little voice, too. He was just singing for the hell of it, you could tell... It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed any more.” -Page 115
ReplyDeleteThis passage is significant because it is the first time that Holden is feeling happy and cheered up, he felt in a way just by seeing this little kid singing on the street. It’s also interesting that he was singing about a “catcher in the rye.” I think that Holden is very fond of children because of their innocence. He wants to be this “catcher in the rye,” meaning that he wants to guide these children through the phase of growing up. He wants to do this maybe because he doesn’t want them to lose their innocence. This is ironic though because Holden is a terrible example for children.
I totally agree. I think because Holden is not a good role model, he knows how to prevent little children from losing there innocence. I also think Holden just likes being around kids to remind him of his blissful days. Being around kids probably upsets Holden too though because it makes him see all his mistakes that can't be undone. He just has to move on and figure out his life, and on his own because he has nobody to help him.
DeleteKatya
I used the same quote. I agree with your point about innocence. I totally forgot about that and I think thats a great point that really is proven by your quote. I agree, good job.
Delete"In the first place, we're both practically children."-page 132
ReplyDeleteThis line stands out to me because Holden loves kids but he seems to want to escape the fact that he is still a kid regardless of how tall or big he is. For a possible personal experience, Holden has a very different perspective toward life compare to other teenagers around his age. Rather than enjoying being a teenager and having fun, Holden worries about things that he shouldn't be worried about. But why does he do that? I think, the people he's surrounded himself with have a big influence on him and they've set a bad example for Holden. Or maybe because of the lack of attention at home, Holden becomes more aware and afraid to turn into something that he hates. Maybe having someone like Sally to remind him that he is still a kid would be helpful or what he's needed most right now- a reassurance.
Matt Baldwin
DeleteI totally agree with this post, Holden thinks he is an adult but he really is still a kid because he is 16. I think because has to do things for him self, in the book he grows up fast, but in the world he is still a kid. he also acts like one, he judges people and how he doesn't have attention at home pushes him to be his own person even more. Since his experience isnt great he has to life away from home.
Shayne Coplan-Ch.16-17
ReplyDelete"The kid was swell. He was walking in the street, instead of on the sidewalk, but right next to the curb... The whole time he kept singing and humming. I got up closer so I could hear what he was singing. He was singing the song, "'If a body catch a body coming through the rye.'" (115)
This is possibly the most important moment in the book and undoubtedly where the name came from. The most interesting thing about this quote is that he claims the child was "swell". He's never had any interactions with him and although we rarely see him talk nicely about another person he already thinks this 6 year old kid is swell. I think this is significant because he almost relates to Holden. Although it states he's poor he's still not being monitored by his family and standing up for him self even though he's six. I feel that the kid walking in the street rather than the sidewalk related to Holden and interested Holden in two ways. The first is because Most people walk on the sidewalk and this child was doing something different that was not phony. The second is because standing on the street is very dangerous in New York City. Here is a 6 year old putting his life on the line while in eyesight of his parents. His parents fail to do anything to get him on the sidewalk and pay no attention to him as he walks alone through the streets of New York. I think Holden really feels a connection to this kid because although he's a different age and comes from different wealth, he is not on his parents' priorities list.
I totally agree. I think because Holden is not a good role model, he knows how to prevent little children from losing there innocence. I also think Holden just likes being around kids to remind him of his blissful days. Being around kids probably upsets Holden too though because it makes him see all his mistakes that can't be undone. He just has to move on and figure out his life, and on his own because he has nobody to help him.
ReplyDeleteKatya
"In the first place, I hate actors. They never act like people." pg 117
ReplyDeleteThis line in the book really stood out to me because of the way Holden said that actors don't really act like people. I'm a little confused about what he means, does he mean that actors are playing other parts and other personality and portraying a character that isn't them so he therefore considers that they aren't acting like people. Which I find kind of interesting because actors are people and the roles they play are of people so shouldn't that mean that they know how to act like people? I think maybe Holden finds that actors are fake/phony because they are playing other roles and not playing them successfully, and that shows that they can't play other people because each person is unique and different and people have different ideas of how they should appear. Also I thought that maybe Holden didn't like actors because he doesn't find that they do a realistic job of portraying the role they are given leading them to not act like people.
I completely agree with you! I think that Holden might also hate actors because of his brother- he might feel like his brother changed and stopped acting like a real person once he went to hollywood.
Delete"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody’d move. . . . Nobody’d be different. The only thing that would be different would be you."- pp121
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it represents how holden doesn't like change and illusion. Holden has gone to the natural history museum multiple times and he enjoys how it stays the same even though he's been gone for so long. I think that this has to do with the element of Holden hating phonies. I think this because he dislikes how people are always changing over time and he finds some sort of comfort in realizing how the museum never changes.
I agree with you for many different reasons. I think this quote does indeed show that Holden dislikes change and enjoys the element of knowing what to expect. He wants everything to remain the way he's always seen it, and doesn't like change. Hence, he disapproves of 'phonies' so much. HOWEVER, disregard the fact that he doesn't want anything to change in the museum, the narrator does state that 'you' will still be different. In this case, like most others in the book, he's referring to himself as 'you.' I think Holden enjoys being different from everyone and kinda being the social outcast. Though, he refuses for anyone to change. So, this quote really makes you wonder whether or not Holden is an enormous hypocrite, or a just a teenager trying to find himself.
Delete"God, I love it when a kid's nice and polite when you tighten their skate for them or something. Most kids are. They really are....She said she had to meet her friend. Kids always have to meet their friend, that kills me." -Page 119
ReplyDeleteThis quote summarizes Holden's personally very swiftly. If you evaluate the quote closely, you'd understand exactly what I'm referencing. In the first part, he's talking about his love for children's politeness and how nice they are. This reminds the reader of Holden's appreciation for innocence. Children are taught to say thank you and appreciate a nice gesture, and so Holden adores their innocence, and in a way, wishes he had that aspect of their lives. Then, the second part of the quote discusses in what emotional state Holden currently is. Because the child was meeting a friend, I think the narrator pointed this out because he himself doesn't have anyone. When he went to see his sister Phoebe, she wasn't there. Not only this, but the only person he had to talk to, was leaving. I think that his loneliness has affected how he views everything in life. In conclusion, I think he envies Phoebe's friend for not only her innocence, but the fact that she's not alone. Why does Holden continue to remain alone? Why doesn't he seek talking to someone?
I really love your insight. As to Holden's insitance of being a loner, I think he isn't ready to let someone into his life, and he's too scared to talk to the people who matter to him, such as Jane, Phobe, or D.B. I think Holden wants to believe he can do perfectly well by himself and he is perfectly happy without associating with phonies. He loves children, I belive this is because they are too young too become phoney and they are innocent and sweet. Two things that Holden lack yet desires in his life. I think he just wants to go back to before his brother Allie died and stay that way. He doesn't want to grow up, he'll just continue to be a wannabe Peter Pan. Allie's death seems to have really broken him emotionally, mentally, and socially and no one will try to help him, or if they do, he'll just turn them away.
Delete"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody’d move. . . . Nobody’d be different. The only thing that would be different would be you." page 121
ReplyDeleteI choose this quote because I think it really says something about Holden and how he sees life. We can infer that Holden has a hard time dealing with his conflicts and problems. I feel Holden likes the museum because of how frozen, and constant everything is. Holden can judge the things he see in the museum, but they can't judge him back. the museum is a perfect world for Holden, a world that's simple. I think Holden wishes he lived in that world. Again, as we have seen from before, Holden says "you" and not, me, at the end of the quote. I think this is just a way Holden can be less emotionally attached to the reader. Also, I think Holden would like to be in that perfect fantasy because maybe Holden is tired of being such an outcast and so different, so he would want to be in a place like this. a place where "Nobody’d be different.". Also, maybe Holden just wants to stop growing and to freeze right then. Holden is very ignorant to change and growing up, so maybe if he was frozen he wouldn't have to deal with that stuff. He also wouldn't have to deal with conflicts, confusion, and depression in his life if this were true. Holden has to confront his problems like a mature person in order for them to get better.
I agree with your comment, and I love the quote you chose. He probably does want to be frozen in time, he doesn't want to change. He doesn't seem to know who he is, and so I agree that he wouldn't like to deal with all the issues he has now. He does seem to want to be emotionally distant from the reader. Holden does have to deal with his problems, but he doesn't. He doesn't really do anything about them, so maybe the things in the museum parallel how he deals with problems.
DeleteI never really thought about it like that, but I could honestly say that I agree with you with Holden wanting a world where everyone is the same and there's no judgement. Also the part about being frozen makes sense too. I believe that if Holden had the option of being an adult or child he would chose to be a child. I really like how you broke down your thoughts based on this quote.
DeleteMatthew Baldwin
ReplyDelete"walks fast so as to get there quicker... long, terrible lines, all the way down the block, waiting with this terrific patience..."
This quote shows that he doesn't really like to wait for things, this also shows that he is a kid in a way. kids don't have any patients and how they can't wait for anything. Kids and even teens just want things to go as fast as possible and to rush into and out of everything. Holden also shows in this quote that he complement people by also putting them down and i think he wants to be able to wait in lines when he is older. but hat metaphor is to just grow up. if he can be able to wait in line, he will technically be a grown up.
I agree, we see Holden as a impatient person in the book also because not only did he not want to wait on the line but he also gets annoyed quickly at many things.
Delete"She thanked me and all when I had it tightened for her. She was a very nice, polite little kid. God, I love it when a kid's nice and polite when you tighten their skate for them or something. Most kids are. They really are." (p. 119)
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows how he likes kids. He likes children because they are innocent, and are not "phonies." They haven't grown up enough to be fake, so they are real because they don't know any better. Kids are generally very honest, they say things how they are. They don't lie and they aren't fake, so Holden likes that about them. They have that innocence of not knowing much, which Holden misses. He is trying to find who he is, so he is jealous of children who don't have to worry about that, they don't need that. Holden seems to be confused about who he is, he keeps telling the reader that he's a madman or he's crazy because he makes rash decisions and acts spontaneously in ways he even doesn't understand. But this brings me to the question, why does Holden like them? I would think he wouldn't like them and instead would be jealous of them. Maybe he's more judgmental about real and fake personalities.
"The cars zoomed by, brakes screeched all over the place, his parents paid no attention to him, and he kept on walking next to the curb and singing "If a body catch a body coming through the rye." It made me feel better." - Chapter 16
ReplyDeleteThis line really catches my attention for various reasons. For the most part when Holden states that he felt less depressed when he saw the little boy walking next to the curb it gave me a sense that he was being sort of sadistic because he was enjoying the fact that the little boy’s parents weren't paying attention to him. Made Holden feel a whole lot better about himself.
In my opinion people can relate to Holden and how he feels in this section of the book because people in general often feel satisfied towards someone else's misery. It's like when a student fails a test and asks a friend how they did and find out they had failed too. It makes one feel good knowing that there's others just like them. I honestly think that's why Holden refers the kid as "swell" because it reminded him of himself as a child.
I still wonder what Holden’s childhood must have been like because as I recall in the very beginning of the novel he states that he had a lousy childhood and that before his parents had him they have always been kept busy. I believe that Holden probably feels like he was and still is a burden to his parents; because he never really seems to talk about them, it’s like he’s avoiding the topic.
I agree with you, I think that Holden sees a lot of himself in that little boy. I also like how you used the example of checking to see if your friend failed when you did too to explain how Holden feels satisfied when he sees other people's misery.
DeletePage - 118
ReplyDelete"It made you depressed, and every once in a while, for no reason, you got goose flesh while you walked."
This line stood out to me, because he was describing central park, and how the way it looked depressed him. Holden doesn't admit many things to himself, and the fact that he only admits depression and loneliness when it is something small surprises me. In this part, Holden had just walked down Browdway, and was disgusted seeing everybody going to the movies. Holden is alone, and that is when he is at his worst, whenever he is alone, he is judging someone else, but I feel as if he really envys them. Even now, when soome teenagers feel lonely, they bully the people that they envy. Holden may not actually speak up about his opinions, but he is always judging peoplel. I think that he is afraid to admit that he is a phony and a moron. Holden finds comfort in the flaws of others.
I agree I definitely found Holden more vulnerable in these chapters. It’s true that people who bully are the ones with the problem. Holden is afraid to admitted he is a phony and a moron, maybe he thinks if he admits it his whole ego would demolish.
Delete“It was the phoniest quote in the book”
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden took Sally the movies it was very special to him. He hated the movies but sacrificed to go with sally. Going into the date Sally thought it would be fun. Holden expected it to be like that summer they spent together but is wasn’t. I think Holden didn’t really mind that Sally was speaking to the guy. I believe he was more worried about Sally being a phony. I have experienced this in my own life when I met someone and I really like him or her, but then 5 months later they are completely different. I usually blame Holden for everything but this time I think he had every right to get upset.
"God, I love it when when a kids nice and polite when you tighten their skate for them or something." (page 119)
ReplyDeleteI like this quote because it shows how comfertable Holden is around children. When he is talking about the "polite child" i think he is thinking of the "innocent adult." Both of these personalitys are really rare to find in people and I think what draws holden to them is the fact that by being something different you are disobaying the laws of humanity given to you by birth. Though Holden himself thinks he is like this I think he is too much of a coward to try and be different. I think Holden as a person is very lost and confused and so he makes his own facts out of opinions.
I agree with you when you say "when he is talking about the 'polite child' i think he is thinking of the 'innocent adult.'" I also think it is interesting that Holden doesn't like "phony" people, but yet he "loves" a polite child, which is very phony because, naturally, children are not polite. Why does Holden like polite children if they are phony? I think this is because they are too innocent to know the difference from being real and being phony, they are just nice.
DeleteKatya Bakal-Schlomann
ReplyDelete"I asked her if she'd care to have a hot chocolate or something with me, but she said no, thank you. She said she had to meet her friend. Kids always have to meet their friend. That kills me." (pg 119)
My main question is why does this 'kill' Holden? Maybe Holden thinks she is making up and excuse to not hang out with him. Wouldn't Holden rather the girl say she was busy than just plainly say no? I would. Also, little girls don't just go off with strangers, especially an older male, for hot cocoa nowadays. Maybe they did back then, and the girl was just politely saying no. But maybe Holden wish the girl just said no because he doesn't want her following his path of lying. This is only if the girl lied though.
Another reason Holden might be upset by the girl meeting a friend is because he doesn't have any friends to meet. At least not friends that he really likes to spend time with. He is so lonely. He must also be upset that he can't spend time with the girl is because he would've really enjoyed hot cocoa with her. This is because Holden generally likes kids because of their innocence and genuineness. Holden also kind of admires children because they can be so true to who they are and can make mistakes without getting in a lot of trouble.
"At first she didn't want to, because she had her lipstick on and all, but I was being seductive as hell and she didn't have any alternative." pg 125
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it made me laugh, and it was the first time I actually saw Holden as like a "cool" guy. Throughout the book I saw Holden as kind of a invisible person in the eyes of those around him, but here I see that he maybe isn't all that awkward and maybe has some of the qualities that girls like that he always talks about with "dopey" and "phony" guys who he thinks are morons. I also go back to the unreliable narrator idea because it's hard to believe that Holden who isn't really socially popular is capable of this, especially because he says Sally is so attractive. Is this true? Or is it another attempt of Holden trying to come across as something he's not to prove something, as he often does?
I agree! Very interesting take on this. Holden kind of transforms, the unreliable narrator thing definitely shows up here. Maybe Holden is only writing what he wants to believe happened, that he's this cool guy at this moment. Even though is a loner and a failure in school. Hm.
Delete"In a way, it was sort of depressing, too, because you kept wandering what the hell would happen to all of them. When they got out of school and collage, I mean." p. 123
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it raised the question, why would that make him depressed? I think it is because it reminds him of Phoebe, and how she will be after schooling. He wouldn't want her to be unhappy, especially with a guy who didn't treat her properly. I think this quote also might be referring to Sunny the prostitute. It might make him sad thinking of the possibility that the girls could end up as prostitutes, and have to hide their identity. I think Holden also worries about his future when talking about the women. He failed out of Pencey Prep and he is contemplating his future. This relates to people in the world, why do people become so consumed with regret if it is in the past? I believe this is because when people make mistakes, it affects their future. I think Holden regrets failing out of Pencey and is worried about how it will affect his future.
I agree with what you said. To add on to what you said about Pheobe, do you think Holden may also find this depressing because it means that Pheobe will come of age and lose her innocence. Holden has shown that he likes inncoence and children and if Pheobe grows up he wont know any more children or anyone innocent.
Delete"..it wasn't too nice for walking. But there was just one nice thing. This family that you could tell just came out of some church were walking right in front of me - a father, a mother, and a little kid about six years old. They looked sort of poor. The father had one of those pearl-gray hats that poor guys wear a lot when they want to look sharp." (page 115)
ReplyDeleteThe question that came to mind when I read this was: where does Holden see poor people? His family is rich and he goes to boarding school. I wonder where Holden got the idea that poor people wear hats like that man. In this statement, Holden is basing this family's financial situation off stereotypes. It's ironic because throughout the book he talks about how he hates fake-ness yet stereotypes such as these are (in my opinion) used by fake people.
When I read these lines, I realized that Holden thought that this family was a "nice thing" because he thinks of this family to be real. He thinks this because of stereotypes. The stereotype of a rich family is fake people with fake smiles not caring about anything but their money while the stereotype of a poor family is a loving family who toughs through the worst together and are kind and happy with what they have. Holden is the most fake in this book because he is a hypocrite and he does commonly does things that he gets mad at other people for doing.
"She was a very nice, polite little kid. God, I love it when a kid's nice and polite when you tighten their skate for them or something. Most kids are. They really are."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it completely shows how much Holden loves and appreciates innocence. There have been many examples throughout the book that suggest that Holden might prefer more innocent people, but I think this is the first time that it's completely obvious. I think that Holden is comparing this little girl to his sister, Phoebe, because he seems to love her (and his dead brother Allie) more than anyone else. Because of this, Phoebe probably symbolizes innocence, because Holden loves her, Allie, and their innocence. This quote and everywhere else in the book where Holden brings up innocence made me wonder about whether or not something might've happened to Holden that had made him lose his innocence. I don't think he wanted to grow up; if he did, he probably wouldn't appreciate innocence as much as he does. Most people seem to want to grow up throughout their whole childhood, but once they do grow up and lose their innocence they want to go back. I think that this quote shows how we shouldn't try too hard to grow up and lose innocence, because it's something that should be appreciated.
"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody'd move. You could go there a hundred thousand times, and that Eskimo would still be just finished catching those two fish, the birds would still be on their way south, the deers would still be drinking out of that water hole. . . Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be so much older or anything. It wouldn't be that exactly. You'd just be different, that's all. You'd have an overcoat on this time. Or that kid that was your partner in line last time had got scarlet fever and you'd have a new partner. Or you'd have a substitute taking the class, instead of Miss Aigletinger. Or you'd heard your mother and father having a terrific fight in the bathroom. Or you'd just passed by one of those puddles in the street with gasoline rainbows in them. I mean you'd be different in some way – I can't explain what I mean. And even if I could, I'm not sure I'd feel like it.” (Page 121)
ReplyDeleteIn this quote, Holden is describing his dislike for change. He wants everything just to pause, nothing will get worse, nothing will change, nothing will hurt him, Allie wouldn't die. Holden's dislike for modernity is quite shocking in the eyes of the modern team, but to Holden, it's all just a reminder of lost innocence and his dead brother. What does Holden even classify as loss of innocence. Is it in terms of sexual activity or knowledge, (which seems unlikely since he is still a virgin), seeing someone get attacked, learning something that disrupts your mental peace forever? Or is it that he sat their watching his brother, his little brother, who HE was supposed to protect and take care of, die slowly of a disease of which Holden could not offer much help to stop?
Holden was just a caring normal happy kid who's perfect world was suddenly turned upside down. He tries to create a perception of the world in his head that would make his behaviour and opinions seem normally critical and not dramatically hypocritical, but it is clear he is just in denial. He was changed by his brother's death and his parent's not hiring a physchiatrist or therapist to work with him after he broke all those windows in a wave of frustration and rage was just the first step on a long staircase of depressing everyday life for Holden Caulfield.
"Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you."
ReplyDeletep:121
To me, this represents how holden feels about changing himself. He sees this museum as a place where things are preserved. To him, it is the least "phoney" place on earth. Nothing changes or hides. Everything is out in the open, and always will be. Holden wishes that the world were like this. There would be no lying, no false hope, and no disappointment. I think that the last part of the quote is the most important though. It shows that Holden feels that he is capable of change. He knows that he doesn't have to feel the way he does. But throughout the book, he is actively refusing to change. In my opinion, Holden, no matter how much he will say other wise, Likes the way that he feels. He likes to be his own "bad guy". It makes him feel unique, it differentiates him from his friends and family. It allows him to look at the world in a way that isn't necessarily forgiving because of how its "wronged" him. Salinger uses this as an analogy for how self loathing makes us weaker. Since the book is semi-autobiographical, Salinger must have felt some of these feelings at some point. To me, he is saying that when we are hate ourselves, we give up on ourselves and refuse to change. He is warning the reader that we cant give in to the idea that we aren't worth our own effort.
"It was the phoniest conversation you've ever heard in your life." Holden says about Sally and George "Something." This is classic Holden here. Blocking out what he really feels, which is jealousy, by telling us what phonies Sally and this George guy were being. Even though he's just jealous that he's stolen Sally's attention. He ingeniously writes this in kind of a second-person style. Holden is saying this to us. He's saying "It's the phoniest conversation YOU'VE ever heard in your life." He's the one listening. He's using his audience as someone to agree or connect with him, saying that this conversation that George and Sally are having is phony as if it were a fact because it was written in the book. The truth is we have no say. We can't hear the conversation. He's the one hearing everything. Such a unique way of expressing Holden's emotions. This quote really stands out to me.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with everything you said in your response. He blocks out a lot of his true feelings, covering them up with jealously and sometimes anger. Why else do you think he keeps referring to us rather then himself? Is he ashamed of himself? Is he trying to act like something he's not?
Delete"His parents paid no attention to him, and he kept on walking next to the curb and singing 'If a body catch a body coming through the rye'. It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed anymore."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because the song reminds me of the the actual name of the book The Catcher in the Rye. I think that Holden also made a connection with the little boy because the fact that his parents aren't paying attention to him when he's walking on the curb but the fact that he's young makes it more innocent since he really doesn't know how dangerous it is and Holden misses that type of innocence. I think the fact that Holden can relate to him because of the lousy childhood that he had. I also think that Holden that made him feel better and not so depressed was because he probably saw a little bit of himself with that boy on the curb and it can also be that he actually likes to see other people's misery to make himself feel better.
"His parents paid no attention to him, and he kept on walking next to the curb and singing 'If a body catch a body coming through the rye'. It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed anymore."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because the song reminds me of the the actual name of the book The Catcher in the Rye. I think that Holden also made a connection with the little boy because the fact that his parents aren't paying attention to him when he's walking on the curb but the fact that he's young makes it more innocent since he really doesn't know how dangerous it is and Holden misses that type of innocence. I think the fact that Holden can relate to him because of the lousy childhood that he had. I also think that Holden that made him feel better and not so depressed was because he probably saw a little bit of himself with that boy on the curb and it can also be that he actually likes to see other people's misery to make himself feel better.
"His parents paid no attention to him, and he kept on walking next to the curb and singing 'If a body catch a body coming through the rye'. It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed anymore."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because the song reminds me of the the actual name of the book The Catcher in the Rye. I think that Holden also made a connection with the little boy because the fact that his parents aren't paying attention to him when he's walking on the curb but the fact that he's young makes it more innocent since he really doesn't know how dangerous it is and Holden misses that type of innocence. I think the fact that Holden can relate to him because of the lousy childhood that he had. I also think that Holden that made him feel better and not so depressed was because he probably saw a little bit of himself with that boy on the curb and it can also be that he actually likes to see other people's misery to make himself feel better.
"His parents paid no attention to him, and he kept on walking next to the curb and singing 'If a body catch a body coming through the rye'. It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed anymore."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because the song reminds me of the the actual name of the book The Catcher in the Rye. I think that Holden also made a connection with the little boy because the fact that his parents aren't paying attention to him when he's walking on the curb but the fact that he's young makes it more innocent since he really doesn't know how dangerous it is and Holden misses that type of innocence. I think the fact that Holden can relate to him because of the lousy childhood that he had. I also think that Holden that made him feel better and not so depressed was because he probably saw a little bit of himself with that boy on the curb and it can also be that he actually likes to see other people's misery to make himself feel better.
"You could tell, for one thing, that they never went anywherre swanky for lunch. It made me so damn sad when I thought about it, their never going anywhere swanky for lunch or anything. I knew it wasn't too important,but it made me sad anyway."
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me a lot in the two chapters because I caught his 'You' again. He likes to refer to the reader a lot when we all know he's talking about himself. Also, why does something so small like nuns not going out to fancy, elegant lunches bother him, or make him sad? He even said it's not important, he knows, but it just made him sad. I think their innocence might bother him, because nuns are very holy and pure and he's out in the city doing the opposite. I think their kindness made him uncomfortable, that's why he kept offering money, maybe? Do you think he wants to be pure? Or he had his chance already?
“He and his wife were just walking along, talking, not paying any attention to their kid… he [the kid] was walking in the street, instead of on the sidewalk…he was walking a very straight line” (115).
ReplyDeleteI think that this kid is supposed to resemble Holden’s childhood because this kids parents aren’t paying attention to him and as Holden said earlier in the novel that his parents weren’t there for him as a child. One may also see that the kid is walking on the street which is considered the wrong place to walk. I think the kid on the street represents Holden taking the wrong path in life as a child and even now as he is a little older. The wrong path could be seen as Holden’s bad childhood or how he doesn’t try in school and has been kicked out of many. The quote also says that the kid was walking in a straight line. I think this represents that Holden has chose to stay on the wrong path and is not getting off it.
" I started thinking how old Phoebe would feel like if a i got pneumonia and died. It was childish way to think, but I couldn't stop myself."
ReplyDeleteHolden still seems to crave attention. When he got drunk he started thinking about death and remebering Allie's death. I fee like he references Allie's death because it meant so much to him. He had so many memories with him as a child and he feels like if he grows up, Allie will go away and he doesn't want that. He seems to see himself through Phoebe and realize how he felt when Allie died. He doesn't want Phoebe to feel the hurt he felt when Allie died. Ifeel like he hides himself because of that and feels alone. When someone you love dies you feel empty like your missing a part of you and you feel like you cant live life without them, but you grow and learn it part of life. Holden can't seem to grow uo and move to that stage which makes him act the way he does.
"Have just one more drink," I told him. "Please . I'm lonesome as hell."
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me becuase as a reader this is one of the only times Holden actually says that he is lonely. To me its a big step becuase not everyone can say that they are lonely most people just block that out and forget that feeling. Holden was sort of begging for him to stay with hime and give him company. Everyone gets lonely but when you tell some one I 'I'm lonely' you have grown for it and are reaady to go on a different path.
I agree. To cure the problem, you first need to accept the problem. Therefore, I think there are implications that Holden doesn't want to be lonely in fact he doesn't want it at all. It's the same with everyone. Nobody wants be lonely without a reason for it.
DeleteI really agree with your point. This line shows that Holden is maturing and it is a big step for him to admit he is lonely. I also really liked how you related it to everyone in the real world, it does take time for people to accept the fact that they are lonely and when do accept it, you feel relief because they are finally admitting to the world and to themselves that they need comfort.
DeleteChapter 18-20
ReplyDelete"Anyway, I'm sort of glad they've got the atomic bomb invented." -end of chapter 18.
I always think of atomic bombs as a very bad invention but Holden seems to have an opposite opinion. I was surprised to hear that of course. Why would Holden be glad? I don't really understand anymore. Atomic bombs can kill up to millions of people in seconds. I think it's such a harsh thing for him to say because many lives can be killed just by dropping this bomb. During WW2, the United States decided to drop one on Japan killing many people but it would have costed many American soldiers to come and battle the Japanese at the same time. Holden may be glad for the bomb because it would save many American soldiers during war but doesn't he think they are phonies?
I agree with what you're saying but in context he had some sense to it. If you look at it the other way maybe atomic bombs stop countries from performing ludicrous acts because they are scared of the consequences of being bombed themselves.
DeleteCh. 18,19,20
ReplyDelete"I started thinking how old Phoebe would feel like if I got pneumonia and died."
Holden is really getting more and more depressed. The reader realizes his depression far earlier in this book but this is truly an extremely depressing thought to have in your mind. As far as the other depressive thoughts Holden has had this is really the most extreme. Pheobe is a child and Holden cares for her a lot, if I started thinking how my family would feel if I died I would feel sad. As a viewer of anyone in that situation you can tell they are not feeling mentally well and feel sorrow for them. I feel sorry for Holden because he has no one to talk to that could help him work out how he was feeling.
Hi Shayne, I don't think that Holden is getting depressed. I think he is just a negative person. He is always thinking about the worst and judging people. Holden is a very complex character, so he is always causing attention. I think Phoebe is the only important person that he thinks he has, and that is close to him. So, he feels that she is the only one that one care for him. Why would he say "I started thinking how old Phoebe would feel like if I got pneumonia and died."? why wouldn't he say his parents, Jane, stradlater or etc?
DeleteChapter 18-20
ReplyDelete"Girls. you never know what they're going to think. I once got this girl Roberta Walsh's roommate a date with a friend of mine. His name was Bob Robinson and he had an inferiority complex. you could tell he was very ashamed of his parents and all, because they said 'he don't and she don't' and stuff like that and they weren't very wealthy. But he wasn't a bastard or anything."-page 136
What Holden is trying to say here is very interesting; it seems that by the way he said this that he means that your social class and the amount of wealth you have does not define you as a person. This guy that Holden was talking about is a nice guy and Holden respects the fact that he hasn't been affected by his social class and that the world around him doesn't alter his personality. We can't let outside influences change who we are as people, our personality is what makes us who we are and if we let others change that then we're not ourselves anymore. Holden knows this too well and has struggled to maintain his his identity throughout the book. Everyone at some stage in their lives struggles with identity and not allowing outside influences to affect our personalities.; this happens because of the fact that there are 7 billion people in this world and we're all bound to have a profound affect on each other. At the moment, Holden is trying to rid himself of outside influences and admittingly, he is having a hard time but the truth is, he has to stay true to himself for his own good.- Connor O'Rourke B band
I really agree especially with the part about how were made of outside influences. As much as Holden would like to rid himself of outside influences and be true to himself, a certain mixture of outside influences is what will make Holden who he is. I think in order for Holden to find himself he has to realize what a person is made of, not physically, and then figure out which influences he wants to be made of. In other words he has to realize that everyone is influenced by each other, and figuring out the personalities that he wishes he could have, will help shape who he is.
DeleteKatya
Katya Bakal-Schlomann
ReplyDeleteCh. 18,19,20
"The only good thing, I knew she wouldn't let Phoebe come to my goddam funeral because she was only a little kid. That was the only good part?" (pg 155)
Holden really confuses me because we have very different and strong views on certain topics. Why wouldn't Holden want Phoebe at his funeral? If I died I would want all my loved ones at my funeral especially my siblings and parents. I would think that Holden would want Phoebe at his funeral because he loves her, and he doesn't love his other relatives who he says would be at his funeral. Maybe Holden wouldn't want Phoebe there because he doesn't want her around jerks and phonies and becoming like them. That answer doesn't quite satisfy me though. Holden says it is because she is a little kid, and I guess wouldn't want to scare or upset her. However, if I were in Phoebe's shoes I would regret not attending my close sibling's funeral. Also, Phoebe isn't a very little kid, she's old enough to attend a funeral. I think the real reason Holden wouldn't want her at his funeral if because he wouldn't want to be at hers. As much as Holden loves Phoebe, he would hate to attend her funeral because his family that he dislikes would be there, and he wouldn't be able to cope with Phoebe's death. He thought of what he would do if Phoebe died and would hope she would do the same for him. Holden also has a hard time facing the reality, but he also can't face a fake world like a show. This shows how Holden is caught on two sides, and what a complex character he is, which demonstrates a big theme of the book: identity. Holden has yet to find out who he is, and which side he is on.
Chapter 18-20
ReplyDelete"If there's ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell on top of it. I'll volunteer for it, I swear to God I will."
Chap. 18 page 183
This quote from the book stands out to me because it seems like Holden is trying to act mature, and old. His older brother D.B said he was too young to understand the books that he likes to read. So a way to express that he is not young to understand those books is by volunteering for a war like his brother did when he was younger. So that might be the reason why Holden said that. Therefore, I don't think he meant it because he is very spoiled, and he wouldn't be able to live in the war without money even though he likes to be equal to everyone. I think that Holden does not like when people treat him like a little kid. Even though he likes innocence, I think he likes to feel grant sometimes.
" It's one those places that are suppose to be very sophisticated and all, and the phonies are coming in the window." pg 141
ReplyDeleteThe reason this line stood out to me was the fact that Holden said all the phonies come in and it was swanky. It made me realize that the people who Holden calls phonies the majority of the time are people who have money. He called his older brother fake and he works in Hollywood and he called many of the students at Pency fake. But when he interacts or sees someone who doesn't have a lot of money or is a kid/younger than him he doesn't think of them as fake. I kind of think that Holden follows the stereotype that says that people who have money aren't real and they have fake/phony personalities. This also made me think whether Holden thinks of himself as a phony because he also has money. I personally don't think he is fake but I do believe he is a hypocrite and contradicts himself a lot all throughout the book. I think the book doesn't portray people correctly I think the author has a very specific point of view of how Holden sees people but in reality not everyone is a phony.
Matthew Baldwin
ReplyDeleteOld Lace
I don't know why Holden really wants to hang out with this guy. he was wanted to have dinner with him then it turned into a drink. When i read the chapter I pictured him as a guy from England that had a really strong accent. I would also think Holden would think of him as a phony, and he said that before he left school with him her could him one.but in this chapter Holden seems very innocents, the way he asks all of the questions to him. he also seems like he want s to know a lot about philosophy.