"Phoebe, have you been smoking a cigarette in here? Tell me the truth, please, young lady ... I just lit one for one second. I just took one puff. Then I threw it out the window." P. 177
This is significant, because the reader learns how careless Holden's mother is. She seems to not care if Phoebe smoked or not. She didn't punish Phoebe in any way, she just told her that she didn't like that. I think Holden is crazy because his mother didn't teach him what was right and wrong. I think he had to do it all by himself and that's the reason why everyone is phony to him. It's also interesting how Phoebe asked her mom if Holden would arrive on Wednesday on page 178. I think she was making sure that they weren't suspicious of Holden getting kicked out and arriving to New York early.
I completely agree. When her mother asked her if she was smoking I thought she was going to kill her. I know my mom would kill me if I told her I smoked. I wonder why her mother is so lenient. Maybe its just the times.
But-- this also shows that their mother is not in the best mental state. She's not completely "with it." She always has head aches, she's very nervous. She's not exactly available emotionally for either Phoebe or Holden to reach out to. I wonder how Holden would have coped with Allie's death if he had had strong parental figures?
I agree with Chris Lopez, many kids started smoking at a very young age and the time period is much different. I did see some signifigance with her mother not really entering the room, but mostly smoking was very different in the time period
"eight dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. Then all of a sudden, I started to cry."
When Phoebe gave Holden her christmas money I think that he started to cry, firstly because he felt bad and secondly because he sort of saw his future. He sees that he won't be successful and he will be without money. I think he feels like he should be the one helping out phoebe, not vice-versa. Maybe he feels guilty because phoebe does so much for him and he barely does anything in return. She makes him feel better she gives him advice she gives him money. All he does is give her the hunting hat. When he gices her the hunting hat i think that it represents him not caring anymore and him giving up on trying to mask his identity.
Since Phoebe acts like the older sibling than Holden, the symbolism shows he's trusting her to lead him. He gave the red hunting hat that he uses to hide himself from people and society and gives it to Phoebe. To show he trusts her worrying and decisions for him and that he doesn't hide from her.
I agree with you. Also the hunting hat symbolized some kind of comfort for Holden. I wonder why he decided to give it to Phoebe. Maybe it was comforting to do something for her like you said. In the text after this quote it said that Holden knew that Phoebe would love it. The hunting hat was important to Holden so I think that it was a bigger deal for him to give her that, but he also knew that it would mean a lot to her. I also think that the hunting hat might represent some kind of "hope". Maybe Holden gave up and decided that Phoebe deserves it more than he does?
I wonder if the reason he liked the hunting cap in the first place is because it reminded him of Phoebe. He said that she loved silly hats like that. Sometimes when you spend enough time with someone, some of their personality and interest rub off on you. Maybe that is what happened to Holden and Phoebe with their hats.
"I did too. I still have the paper he gave me." (Page 188)
I think that's extremely sensitive of Holden. Him keeping the paper his old professor gave him even after he went to another school. If you notice, you ask a person to keep a piece of paper with them forever, chances are they'll lose it in a week. I know, when my friends asked me to keep a good bye letter they wrote and I kept it alright...for only 3 days. Holden keeping a small token of a paper his professor gave him is different than what I'd think he'd do. I feel as if he keeps that paper because it makes him feel less lonesome.
I'm not completely sure I agree with you. I think that he just truly cares about his teacher. I think that he kept it because he wanted this memory of this great teacher.
I completely agree with you Steph but you should expand your thought process a little more to see where it gets you. Holden keeping the paper his proffessor gave him shows me that Holden actually has feelings and has concideration towards others. Its sweet that Holden kept the paper but it also shows that he is actualy,maybe listening to other people. Maybe that proffesor thought Holden an important lesson and by Holden keeping the paper shows that whenever he looks at it he wont forget the teacher and the lesson taught.
@ Max-- Didn't Mr. Antolini ruin Holden's trust, though? I mean, Holden feels like he has to run out of the apartment to escape him at the end of the chapter. Why would he still want to keep a gift from Mr. Antolini?
I agree with you. Also the hunting hat symbolized some kind of comfort for Holden. I wonder why he decided to give it to Phoebe. Maybe it was comforting to do something for her like you said. In the text after this quote it said that Holden knew that Phoebe would love it. The hunting hat was important to Holden so I think that it was a bigger deal for him to give her that, but he also knew that it would mean a lot to her. I also think that the hunting hat might represent some kind of "hope". Maybe Holden gave up and decided that Phoebe deserves it more than he does?
" "If I write something down for you, will you read it carefully? And keep it?" "Yes. Sure," I said. I did, too. I still have to paper he gave me. " (Page 188)
This quote really stood out to me. For the first time Holden talks about the 'present', "I still have the paper he gave me". It reminded me that Holden is telling us his story, he is telling us after it happened. J.D. Salinger made an interesting choice by doing that. He could have made Holden tell us the story in present tense, but he didn't. I wonder why. It shows that Holden must have really grown up and moved on. It takes a lot of will power to look back and remember a time that was hard for you. Remembering and reflecting on your past is extremely difficult. If Holden has gotten to that place, where he can look back on his challenging teenage year with honesty, then he must have moved on. But is Holden even an honest narrator. His story could be completely different and he is reworking it to show himself in a better light. Also, this book is somewhat biographical. We know that this IS a version of J.D. Salinger's teenage years, so he really is looking back and telling us his past.
I think you make an interesting point. We do know that the conversations Holden has does contain some truth within them because his thoughts are proven unreliable. However, I don't really think we know if Holden has grown up and is telling us his story or if he is just somewhere else and decided to backtrack on his ventures. Since this story is somewhat biographical, like you said, I think it tells more about J.D. Salinger and what he was like as a teen rather than Holden because after all Holden is just a character.
I agree and disagree with you. I think this part does show us again that this is written in past tense, and that Holden is now in a different place, and it has us question whether he's really an honest narrator, but I think he's not necessarily in a better place in his life yet. The way the story is told, we get that he's this scared insecure guy, not just from what he does but also the narration. I don't think he is really past everything that has happened to him. However, I think he is in a place where although he's not completely over his past, he's in a place where is working to move forward.
Great attention to detail, Tamar! It's true-- this is one of the few moments that we get a sense of perspective from Holden. I wonder what that tells us, that he still keeps that piece of paper with him? I wonder where he is supposed to be as he's writing this story. How many days, months or years have passed by?
I liked this line too. I thought that it showed a sensitive side of Holden that we don't normally. Its also sorrt of nostalgic and the paper is also an connection to someone else thats not himself or a family member. It shows him reaching out.
"Here's what he said: "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one."-pg. 188
Mr. Antolini was definitely trying to get a quote that captured everything about Holden. Reading Chapter 24, brought so much perspective and understanding to me because I believe Holden is an immature man that wants to die nobly for a cause he believes in, but the world and everyone in the '80's is trying to be the "mature man" that wants to live a humble life. The thing with Holden's reality is that everyone wants to be on the other side (mature man living a humble life) because "the grass is always greener." I came to this conclusion where Holden is just a contradicting person with the rest of the world. His mind is so complex and intricate that he can't express himself and left everyone he ever loves. Then, Mr. Antolini enters and he seems to have figured out Holden's complex demeanor. Mr. Antolini has somewhat figured out Holden partly because he's spent a lot of time with him and partly because he reminds me a lot of Holden. Antolini is not very good with expressing his feeling verbally, but he could express his emotions very well with writing his thoughts down. Holden CANNOT express his feeling concisely, but can write his compositions very well. I am so anxious to finish the book because it seems like as we move closer towards the end, we are experiencing Holden's thoughts from the beginning.
This quote really stood out to me because Holden actually felt something that wasn't depression or loneliness or just not caring. It was finally a different emotion. And he didn't stop for a long time. This made me think/realize that only Phoebe can ACTUALLY bring out all these hidden emotions, the truth, and most of all the REAL Holden. Phoebe is 6 years younger than him but she knows Holden forward and backwards. She loves him and he loves her and they have this close bond that just won't ever change.
I happen to agree with your observations. Phoebe does have an insight into Holden's behavior and emotional makeup. Part of his emotional melt down, when he begins to cry, is probably his realization of how pathetic he must seem when he has to take sisters Christmas money. How great an adventurer can he be if he has to raid his little sister's piggy bank?
I agree with your analysis of Holden's behavior. I also agree with what Gila said about him crying because of Phoebe's christmas money. I remember when I was little, my christmas money was precious to me.I think part of the reason Holden got so emotional was because of of her generosity. She gave him the money without even blinking. This shows how much she truly cares about her brother, and wants the best her him.
i completely agree with what your saying. Phoebe is at such a young innocent age, where her response to what he does will not be judgemental because of her age. Also she is able to connect with him in such a strong way, where Holden can just talk about anything freely, being himself and not his phony self, talking about his emotions or life. it brings out the real Holden, rather than the one that hides his emotions, or isolates himself from being able to share them with his peers.
“I felt it again, and I still didn’t feel anything, but I said, ‘I think I’m starting to now.’ I didn’t want her to get a goddamn inferiority complex.” (p. 228) This part stood out to me, because Holden is trying to stop Phoebe from feeling bad for herself, like he feels sorry for himself. Holden is always getting put down, and is always being told that he’s not good enough, or he can’t do something, so even when its something so stupid as making your head feel warm, he doesn’t want Phoebe to feel like that in anyway. He also does this when she says she learned how to belt, and he tells her it was good, but tells us the opposite. When Holden is lying to Phoebe about that stuff, it’s really the first time we see him lying to someone for their benefit. Everyone tells lies every once in awhile, even if its so you don’t hurt someone’s feelings, or to make someone feel better, but Holden seems to lie just for his own enjoyment. This is the first case we see him lying for a different reason, to protect Phoebe. But can Phoebe every really learn to grow from her mistakes, if Holden never tells her when she’s wrong? Did the same thing happen to Holden, which is why he seems to have a hard time moving own and growing up.
"Then all of a sudden, I started to cry... I was still sitting on the edge of the bed when I did it, and she put her old arm around my neck, and I put my arm around her, too, but I still couldn't stop for a long time." -page 186
This quote stood out to me so much. Holden has never been that emotional. I think that this is the first time that Holden has ever broke down crying because of something mental rather than physical. It also intrigued me that Holden broke down crying with Phoebe. She was the only one in a while that actually showed that she cared about Holden. Also, Holden really cares about his sister which probably was why it was hard for him to stop crying. Phoebe was playing the role of a mother rather than a younger sister and I think that Holden really needed that. Holden wanted to be feel safe and comfortable and he did feel that way with Phoebe which is why I think he gave Phoebe his hunting hat. It was also interesting how Phoebe put her arm around Holden and he did the same. He always says that Phoebe's too affectionate but here he actually responds to her gesture in an affectionate way also. I think it shows that Holden is showing what he truly feels. He's not lying or being a phony or even caring if he's judged. Maybe Holden is starting to realize that sometimes it's good to let things out and be affectionate and trust other people.
I agree, I think Phoebe is being the mother-figure in this moment. When we meet his mother, she seems very austere and phony to me, and Phoebe is being the source of comfort that cannot be found in his own mother.
I also agree that Phoebe is filling in the "mother-figure" for holden because she gets him and I feel like she has to since Holden's mother always has headaches and isn't 100 percent with them all the time.
"'It may be the kind where, at the age of thirty, you sit in some bar hating everybody who comes in looking as if he might have played football in college.'" Pg 186 I think that this is hilarious because this is already who Holden is. He finds those older jocks or preps to be phony. He does sit at bars and hate these people. He already, in his mid-teens, sits at bars and hates people who look more successful than him. While I found this funny, it was also sort of depressing. Because, he's saying that you've hit rock bottom if you do this in your thirties. But he's already hit rock bottom.
"Then I took my red hunting hat out of my pocket and gave it to her. She likes those kinds of crazy hats. She didn't want to take it, but I made her." pg. 180 I found this line significent because I believe the red hunting hat determined how real Holden is when he's wearing it. When he's wearing it, he has this whole facade that he presents to the world where he just despises everyone, but when he takes it off, he's very vulnerable and cares about the world around him. Despite how much he loves Phoebe's innocence, I think he realizes that she has to grow up, and he's giving her the red hunting hat for protection. This hat was Holden source of protection and comfort, and him giving it to Phoebe is him finally acknowledging that Phoebe is going to grow up eventually, and he will have to soon also. I also think he's trying to put his hopes and dreams into Phoebe in hopes that she will suceed, because they are so much alike and I think Holden doesn't want Phoebe to end up like he is at all.
I totally agree, especially when you say that the red hunting hat is Holden's source of protection and now he's handing it down to Phoebe. I also think that the hat is so private to Holden-he usually wears it when he's by himself, and at his most vulnerable state-and it represents a part of him that the world doesn't see. Him giving the hat to Phoebe shows how he really can act himself with her.
I was looking for the meaning in this gesture in Holden giving her the hat and I completey agree. Holden realizes that Phoebe is growing up from the experience he's just had with her. He realizes that he can't stop her from "falling out of the rye" and becoming an adult. Giving her the hunting hat is such a symbolic gesture and I think you interpreted it really well. In response: I think Holden is more comfortable covering up because he doesn't have to talk to other people about his past traumatic issues. When he is wearing the hat he can be boisterous and confident because he has something to cover his past. But without the hat he may feel exposed and his thoughts wander on to darker things.
Interesting idea, Francesca. He definitely feels a sense of comfort when he puts it on. It's interesting that you suggest that when he's wearing it, it's his disguise. Why is he more comfortable incognito? Why can't he open up to the world and live life?
"Eight dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. Then all of a sudden, I started to cry." This quote stood out to me because Holden recieving money from his 10 year old sister, probably gave him a glimpse at what the future has at store for him. Holden, throughout the entire story thought of himself as the dumber sibling of his family. He even thinks his youngest sister is smarter then him and shes only 10. This was probably the turning point for Holden. Him not being able to save up money for himself and having to borrow some, shows him that this is what he will be doing for the rest of his life, borrowing money from his siblings. He will be the duck that has no place to go when the lagoon freezes over, while the rest of his siblings flee. If Holden wants to be able to flee with his siblings and find shelter for when the lagoon freezes over, he is going to have to try and build a better future for himself. Maybe that is what he will learn to do. This relates to the universe because many people are stuck in life, whether its socially, economically, or physically. Many people, like Holden, get stuck and have no place to go until they get their "aha" moment. Although it took Holden a lot of time to get there, he made it and maybe people out in the world will do to.
YES! I totally agree with you. It is what I thought too. Holden getting a glimpse of his future. But I'm not sure if this is the turning point for Holden. It's gonna take a very long time for Holden to change.
I agree with Maria and Pammy-song4. Holden is starting to look into his future and maybe Phoebe did have alot to do with it. However, i dont think that he's going change in a blink of an eye, its going to take alot for him to realize what type of person he is.
"Eight dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. Then all of a sudden, I started to cry."
This line stood out to me because, now we see such a good sister phoebe is. But the main point is Holden realize his future and how messed up he is. I almost wanted to cry because I know how that feels. When you're messed up and your younger sibling helps you and is there for you. And in this world it happens all the time, with people living a certain life, and it taking some one close to them to help them realize how messed up they are. But dose this really mean Holden might change?
I agree. I also thought it was very emotional because Phoebe was trying to help and support her brother anyway that she possibly could. However, it should have been Holden that needed to support Phoebe. As we mentioned in class their roles certainly changed at this point.
"The front door!" she said in this loud whisper."It's them!" (pg.176) This stood out to me because, it showed how Phoebe was protective over her brother Holden, She knew that he would've gotten in big trouble if their mom knew that Holden was there. It also reminded me of how I would protect my brother when he didn't finish all of is homework. I would tell my mom "yeah,mom he did finish it." Then I would quickly help him finish it and explain it to him, we basically have each others backs. But I feel like me being the older one, it's my job to protect my younger siblings but instead Phoebe feels like it is her job to protect Holden.
I agree with you. Phoebe cared more about their parents coming home than he did even though if he was to get caught he would be in trouble. Phoebe is very protective of Holden and I think Holden realizes this because when she finds out that Holden was kicked out of school she is more worried about him than he is about himself and he is okay with that. In this situation like you said, Holden is the little brother while Phoebe is the big sister and she has his back.
"He was doing was, he was sitting on the floor right next to the couch, in the dark and all, he was sort of petting me or patting me on the goddamn head... That kid of stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid."
I think this part is interesting because it explains a lot about Holden and his attitude towards people. In this part of the story he wakes up his teacher sitting on the floor touching his head in the dark while Holden slept. Holden then said that it has happened more than once. I think explains why Holden is not very comfortable around people and would rather be a social outcast. As a child he says that the perverts have done this sort of thing at least twenty times. I don't think Holden trust anybody except Phoebe because this happened. This situation relates to the world because when people have been physically/sexually abused they tend to not trust anybody and be a social outcast because they do not want their secret exposed. This makes me wonder if Holden has ever told anybody about the past twenty times a person has touched him in a strange manner, and if he did who did he tell.
"I thanked him and all and put it in my pocket. It was nice of him to go to all that trouble." pg 188
I thought this quote showed the opposite of what Holden would usually say. Instead of him thanking the man, he would usually probably critisize the man for being nice because Holden know's he would never do that. I think as the book goes on it starts to show the REAL side of Holden and we get to understand him more. Although in the next couple of sentences Holden started talking about people, he still showed empathy and he actually found something nice. Maybe he thought the man was being real or maybe be thought of the nuns and how nice they are to people. Maybe he saw the man as someone who would be someone's catcher in the rye someday. Holden changes up his personality's and does things when he wants to do it.
"He was trying to act very goddam casual and cool and all, but he wasn't any too goddam cool. Take my word." (Page 192) We have to take Holden's word for it yet again, a rare authority figure that he respects violates his trust. We have seen throughout his misadventures how difficult Holden finds dealing with adults. Here, at an admired teacher's house, a place where Holden has sought out, as a sanctuary: he perceives danger. Even under those circumstances at a place he should feel safe he has to flee and feels threatened. Regardless, of Mr. Antolini's motivation, which is unclear to us, Holden's reaction is clear- another betrayal by yet another "phony".
"When something perverty like that happens, I start sweating like a bastard. That kind of stuff has happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can't stand it." (pg.251)
Has Holden had a past traumatic sexual experience? If this is true it could be the reason behind Holden's distrust for people and authority figures in general. If Holden has had experiences in his past where he felt that his "innocence" was violated it could be the reasoning behind his wanting to protect innocence and childness as well. If he felt that he was robbed of his childhood because of a certain event that took place he ould be driven to protect the child hood of other children so they wouldn't be robbed like he was. When I say that Holden could lose his trust for authority figures I'm assuming that these "perverty" experiences have occured with other adult figures in Holden's life. If he really had such a traumatic experience with an adlt figure that he closely trusted then he will lose all faith in other adult figures who try to approach him. It could be the reason jaded personality! It's a dark view but it could be a reason for mutiple things in the book. It's a thing that we can contribute into analyzing Holden's behaviour and why he behaves as such.
I agree with what you said about how this experience could have caused his personality to change drastically. You said it might be the reason for his distrust for people (mostly adults). Maybe it is why he calls so many people phonies. When he talked about Luce, he talked about how he thinks he is a "flit" because of the way he talks and the way he behaves. Will Holden judge other people based off the way Mr. Antolini behaved. Holden kept on comparing Mr. Antolini with his brother, D.B. Will this change the way that Holden sees his brother as a family member and a person in general?
""But what I mean is, lots of time you don't know what interests you most till you start talking about something that doesn't interest you most." Chapter 24
This quote stood out to me because it reminded me of how Holden progressed from the first chapter up till now. To me, Holden saying this reminded me of all the times when he pointed out he was uninterested, but realized in fact he was interested. Like the time in chapter 3 when Holden chooses to ignore and criticize Ackley for barging into his room while he was reading. However, in chapter 22, we realize that Holden did pay attention to Ackley and he felt upset that he was left out because of the mean and phony guys that went to Pencey. Why do people act the way Holden does? Many people do in fact talk about things that don't interest them just to realize that they are interested. Its mostly because we choose to ignore what we actually feel about certain things because were so used to thinking negative towards it. Holden does this too. He so used to negativity that he can't truly tell us how he feels.
"'Phoebe, have you been smoking a cigarette in here?'...'I just lit one for one second. I just took one puff.'...'I don't like that, Phoebe. I don't like that at all...Do you want another blanket?'" page 177
This is the first time that one of Holden's parents appears in the book, and it's interesting because Holden never really describes them. Clearly, Holden's mother is a little bit off. She thought her ten-year-old daughter was smoking a cigarette, and didn't even do anything about it. She is also very nervous and has headaches a lot. We know that Holden's father is a corporation lawyer and he makes a lot of money. He also mentions on the first page of the book that they are both very touchy about personal subjects. They seem like typical wealthy adults of the fifties. The exact kind of people who would not relate to Holden at all. So, would Holden be any different if he had parents who he could talk to and who understood him? Would he feel less outcasted from society if his own parents accepted him? I think that it may have something to do with his behavior.
"Eight dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. Then all of a sudden, I started to cry." I chose this one because it was kind of weird for Holden to take his sisters money. Especially since it's his younger sister. It shows that Phoebe is way more 'grown up' than Holden. It's like Holden will never be that way and this is when he realizes it. Holden finally sees that his younger sister is always going to be the golden child or the grown up one. Holden is stuck as a child and can't seem to figure out how to break away from it because he's afraid or he just can't figure out a way to. Phoebe will always be one step ahead of Holden with her life on track. Holden seems fine with that for now but as he grows older it will make him feel worse and worse.
I agree. I think that this shows how much more mature Phoebe is than Holden. Also that Holden is maybe a little regretful that he didn't make the most of his childhood and education the way Phoebe did.
I agree. Phoebe is definitely more grown up than Holden but I also think that Phoebe is not the golden child. I think that there is no golden child, each kid in Holden's family is special in some way. I don't think that Phoebe will always be more grown up than Holden or always be the golden child. I think that Holden will eventually grow up.
"He was the one that finally that finally picked up that kid that jumped out the window I told you about...He didn't even give a damn if his coat got all bloody." p. 174 I think this quote is significant because it shows more about people who Holden likes. He only likes a few of the people he meets/knows throughout the book, and one of those few people was Mr. Antolini, and another one of them seemed to be James Castle. This quote is significant to this because it shows why Holden likes these certain characters, and I think the main thing that attracts him to someone is how real they are. This quote shows that Mr. Antolini was real and thoughtful and he didn't think too much about what other's though or cared about. Holden likes these people because he does care about what people think, and he if he is with people who don't care about being judged, maybe they will not judge him so harshly.
I agree that Holden likes people who won't judge him so harshly. I think this is why Holden made some sort of effort to listen to Mr. Antolini's advice. I actually think his advice might have had some sort of impact on Holden because he reflects on the conversation later. Holden even calls Mr. Antolini a smart guy.
"Are you smoking now?... 'Just once in a while. I'm a moderate smoker."' Page 182.
Why is Holden lying? Holden is the a very heavy smoker and you read about him smoking quite frequently. He even admits smoking a lot. Somewhere in the book he says that smoking has made him short breathed and he can't do much physical activity without getting winded. Holden has an addiction but I think that he can't admit it. He thinks he can get off the hook any time he wants. Another question that I have is whether or not smoking is a symbol in this book? Is it something like the red hunting hat? What I think about this is that smoking is something that makes Holden feel like an adult. Smoking is something adults tend to do and back in that time period smoking was probably considered cool. Smoking probably makes Holden feel tough and grown up in a cool way. Holden thinks that he can become someone cool like Jim Steele when he smokes. Smoking seems to be something Holden uses to make himself look cooler. I also think that Holden uses smoking as a stress reliever. For example when he's with Mr. Antotolini Holden seems to be stressed by the world and a lack of sleep. I think that a lot of people can relate to Holden because everybody has their own stress outlet or something that they do because they think it makes them look cool. The world is full of people just being people and that is what Holden is doing. Holden has an addiction to something and i'm sure everybody at one point in their lives has been been addicted to something too.
“I don’t want to scare you,” he said, “but I can very clearly see you dying nobly, one way or another, for some highly unworthy cause.” Pg. 188 This quote stood out to me because I agreed with Mr. Antolini that Holden would eventually do something unworthy to find a purpose in his life. He refuses to apply himself in school which I think is closing off many opportunities for him to grow. He will probably end up giving up on his search for a career because he loses interest in things really easily. I think this is why Mr. Antolini told Holden that when he did find out what he wanted do, he would have to start immediately. This quote made me wonder why it takes so long for some people to find an occupation that they are happy with. Is it because they aren’t open-minded or is it because they didn’t know about any other options?
I most definitely agree with you as to how Mr. Antolini gives Holden this piece of advice, and to me it shows that Holden doesn't listen to important advice from teachers or whoever because he really doesn't apply himself at all.
"I made it very snappy on the phone because I was afraid my parents would barge in right in the middle of it" -pg. 226
This line stood put to me because I thought that this line could show a couple ways about how Holden feels towards his parents. One of the ways could be He's afraid of them. He's afrfaid that He'll dissapoint his parents because he's been kicked out of a lot of schools and he knows that he'll let them down again, but he doesn't want to face that. I know I do when I don't do something my parents want me to do something. Or on the other hand he could just resent his parents in the way that all teenagers do. Like they don't understand him or what he's going through or what he wants.
"What he was doing was..." "...he was sort of petting me or patting me on the goddam head." PAGE 192
"...something perverty like that happens..." "...happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can't stand it." PAGE 193
These quotes were extremely significant because Mr. Antolini was one of his most favorite teachers. He looked up to him and suddenly he woke up in the middle of the night with his ex-teacher stroking his face. He started out all embarrassed. He deserved to be with his teacher suddenly touching him. But then he spoke to the reader (us) very casual like. He said "it happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid." How many teachers have touched him? Why does he talk so casual about it? I can only imagine how delicate of a subject it is but how has he not done anything about it!? I wonder how his view of Mr. Antolini has changed after this experience and how he feels about Mrs. Antolini... Will he go back to talk to him? Will he talk to anyone else about it?
"What he was doing was, he was sitting on the floor right next to the couch, in the dark and all, and he was sort of petting or patting me on the goddam head. Boy, I'll bet I jumped about a thousand feet."
This part stood out to me the most because Mr.Antolini was just showing affection in a fatherly way, and Holden totally perceived that the wrong way. Holden kind of rejects affection,and the fact that Mr. Antolini was stroking his hair, it put Holden in a very uncomfortable place. I think Mr. Antolini was just trying to be a fatherly figure, and Holden completely rejects him.
Oscar Belkin-Sessler October 24, 2012 The Catcher in the Rye chapters 23-24
“Then, all of the sudden, I started to cry. I couldn’t help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it.” (PG. 179)
This quote displays one of the few times where we, as readers are exposed the innocence and rawness that is Holden. He starts to cry directly after receiving money from Phoebe. Whenever he cry’s it surprises me, but when I read this I wasn’t sure if it had to do with the money and his sister or if it was just a coincidence. I think that it was a couple of things coming together. It always seems that Holden builds up a lot of stress, anger, anxiety, and other feelings, and finally he has to crack. So he starts to cry. A lot of the feelings that he picked up from these past chapters were just coming out at that moment. I think Holden started to realize that he might be leaving home for good. Holden seems very lost, and even at this point in the book, money wont be able to solve his problems. Another reason that he starts crying is because of his lack of innocence. I think him dancing with his sister was great and it was a way of him letting go and be a little bit of a kid. But now he has real life problems and he has to deal with them…by himself.
I also found it very interesting how Phoebe immediately noticed. She's his anchor and floatie at the same time. He's sad because he has to be supported by a ten year old girl who doesn't even pick out her own clothes. He also feels bad because she's misses out on part of her childhood because she spends so much time worrying about him. And then what's keeping him going, a couple of bucks from some kid on a loan are all he has (for the time being), and after that he's really stuck
"That stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can't stand it." pg 193
During our process through this book, we often referred to Holden's problems as kind of "rich kid" ones. Earlier in this passage, when he talks about his tie, I even took that down as a note. I realized here just another tragedy in the list of ones that seem to plague poor Holden's life, and explain why he is the person that he is. A few pages prior, Holden compares D.B., who, despite what my classmates have said, I do believe Holden quite likes, to his teacher. Though this is out on a limb, I wonder if D.B. has advanced on Holden sexually. I understand that with the chronology of the story there is little to no indications towards it, but the comparison between the two people is definitely an important one. This reminds me of the question of Holden being an unreliable narrator. It takes him so long to mention events which have had so much obvious affect on him. And he can't even see the affect himself. Allie and Jane and James Castle and Luce and pervs and all the in-betweens. We are compositions of everyone and everything around us. I wish he had been composed of happier experiences, but that wouldn't make a story now would it? Just on a separate note, Holden reminds me of Charlie from Perks of Being a Wallflower. Molested, he suppresses the experiences. He's quiet and he thinks too much. No good with people, a social misfit, and as caring as is humanly possible. They're so alike.
" 'i don't like that, Phoebe. i don't like that at all ',my mother said. 'Do you want another blanket?' " (page 176)
This quote was taken from a scene where Holden had sneaked into his house to see Phoebe , and had smoked in her room. Surprisingly Holden's parents come home, so he makes the quick escape to hide in the closet. When the mom comes into the room and smells the smoke, Phoebe covers for Holden saying that she smoked, with mother responding in a very bland way. i feel that the mom doesn't really show the caring and worried side, that every mother should have towards her children. Phoebe is maybe 10 years old or younger, and claiming that she smoked a cigarette to her mother, and all the mother has to say is "i don't like that". Of course she's not gonna like it, but she doesn't make an effort to talk with Phoebe, or interrogate her about the cigarette, like how a typical mother would do. i can connect the way the mother reacts to this, to maybe how it affected Holden, and how Holden always feels he needs someone there, that maybe needs to tell him whats the bad morals and whats the right morals. Which may affect him making him more depressed and choosing the opposite of what he should be going for.
"I don't want to take your christmas dough. I can lend you some. she said" (P178)
I found this passage interesting because Phoebe didn't even hesitate to lend Holden her Christmas money. When I was Phoebe's age, I would have never shared my christmas money with anybody. Holden feels bad taking her money, so she assures him that its okay by telling him that he's just borrowing it. She says this because because she knows he wouldn't have taken the money from her otherwise.Phoebe gives him the money because she knows that Holden needs money at the moment a lot more than she does.
Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry" This quote stood out to me because Phoebe is the only person in the book that has made Holden truly think about his actions and what he did to himself by getting kicked out of Pencey. He avoids it myself, but phoebe really makes him evaluate himself. Would Holden's life be differs if he was schooled in the city and was around Phoebe more often? Would she have made him evaluate himself more and put more effort into important things like school? I think she would've been a really positive influence on Holden's life if he was in regular school and is in the book.
"Phoebe, have you been smoking a cigarette in here? Tell me the truth, please, young lady ... I just lit one for one second. I just took one puff. Then I threw it out the window." P. 177
ReplyDeleteThis is significant, because the reader learns how careless Holden's mother is. She seems to not care if Phoebe smoked or not. She didn't punish Phoebe in any way, she just told her that she didn't like that. I think Holden is crazy because his mother didn't teach him what was right and wrong. I think he had to do it all by himself and that's the reason why everyone is phony to him. It's also interesting how Phoebe asked her mom if Holden would arrive on Wednesday on page 178. I think she was making sure that they weren't suspicious of Holden getting kicked out and arriving to New York early.
I completely agree. When her mother asked her if she was smoking I thought she was going to kill her. I know my mom would kill me if I told her I smoked. I wonder why her mother is so lenient. Maybe its just the times.
DeleteYea, I think so. I think it was common to start smoking at a young age.
DeleteBut-- this also shows that their mother is not in the best mental state. She's not completely "with it." She always has head aches, she's very nervous. She's not exactly available emotionally for either Phoebe or Holden to reach out to. I wonder how Holden would have coped with Allie's death if he had had strong parental figures?
DeleteI agree with Chris Lopez, many kids started smoking at a very young age and the time period is much different. I did see some signifigance with her mother not really entering the room, but mostly smoking was very different in the time period
Delete"eight dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. Then all of a sudden, I started to cry."
ReplyDeleteWhen Phoebe gave Holden her christmas money I think that he started to cry, firstly because he felt bad and secondly because he sort of saw his future. He sees that he won't be successful and he will be without money. I think he feels like he should be the one helping out phoebe, not vice-versa. Maybe he feels guilty because phoebe does so much for him and he barely does anything in return. She makes him feel better she gives him advice she gives him money. All he does is give her the hunting hat. When he gices her the hunting hat i think that it represents him not caring anymore and him giving up on trying to mask his identity.
Since Phoebe acts like the older sibling than Holden, the symbolism shows he's trusting her to lead him. He gave the red hunting hat that he uses to hide himself from people and society and gives it to Phoebe. To show he trusts her worrying and decisions for him and that he doesn't hide from her.
DeleteI agree with you. Also the hunting hat symbolized some kind of comfort for Holden. I wonder why he decided to give it to Phoebe. Maybe it was comforting to do something for her like you said. In the text after this quote it said that Holden knew that Phoebe would love it. The hunting hat was important to Holden so I think that it was a bigger deal for him to give her that, but he also knew that it would mean a lot to her. I also think that the hunting hat might represent some kind of "hope". Maybe Holden gave up and decided that Phoebe deserves it more than he does?
DeleteI wonder if the reason he liked the hunting cap in the first place is because it reminded him of Phoebe. He said that she loved silly hats like that. Sometimes when you spend enough time with someone, some of their personality and interest rub off on you. Maybe that is what happened to Holden and Phoebe with their hats.
Delete"I did too. I still have the paper he gave me." (Page 188)
ReplyDeleteI think that's extremely sensitive of Holden. Him keeping the paper his old professor gave him even after he went to another school. If you notice, you ask a person to keep a piece of paper with them forever, chances are they'll lose it in a week. I know, when my friends asked me to keep a good bye letter they wrote and I kept it alright...for only 3 days. Holden keeping a small token of a paper his professor gave him is different than what I'd think he'd do. I feel as if he keeps that paper because it makes him feel less lonesome.
i posted about the same quote!! Look bellow! :)
DeleteI'm not completely sure I agree with you. I think that he just truly cares about his teacher. I think that he kept it because he wanted this memory of this great teacher.
DeleteI completely agree with you Steph but you should expand your thought process a little more to see where it gets you. Holden keeping the paper his proffessor gave him shows me that Holden actually has feelings and has concideration towards others. Its sweet that Holden kept the paper but it also shows that he is actualy,maybe listening to other people. Maybe that proffesor thought Holden an important lesson and by Holden keeping the paper shows that whenever he looks at it he wont forget the teacher and the lesson taught.
Delete@ Max-- Didn't Mr. Antolini ruin Holden's trust, though? I mean, Holden feels like he has to run out of the apartment to escape him at the end of the chapter. Why would he still want to keep a gift from Mr. Antolini?
DeleteI agree with you. Also the hunting hat symbolized some kind of comfort for Holden. I wonder why he decided to give it to Phoebe. Maybe it was comforting to do something for her like you said. In the text after this quote it said that Holden knew that Phoebe would love it. The hunting hat was important to Holden so I think that it was a bigger deal for him to give her that, but he also knew that it would mean a lot to her. I also think that the hunting hat might represent some kind of "hope". Maybe Holden gave up and decided that Phoebe deserves it more than he does?
ReplyDelete" "If I write something down for you, will you read it carefully? And keep it?"
ReplyDelete"Yes. Sure," I said. I did, too. I still have to paper he gave me. " (Page 188)
This quote really stood out to me. For the first time Holden talks about the 'present', "I still have the paper he gave me". It reminded me that Holden is telling us his story, he is telling us after it happened. J.D. Salinger made an interesting choice by doing that. He could have made Holden tell us the story in present tense, but he didn't. I wonder why. It shows that Holden must have really grown up and moved on. It takes a lot of will power to look back and remember a time that was hard for you. Remembering and reflecting on your past is extremely difficult. If Holden has gotten to that place, where he can look back on his challenging teenage year with honesty, then he must have moved on. But is Holden even an honest narrator. His story could be completely different and he is reworking it to show himself in a better light. Also, this book is somewhat biographical. We know that this IS a version of J.D. Salinger's teenage years, so he really is looking back and telling us his past.
I think you make an interesting point. We do know that the conversations Holden has does contain some truth within them because his thoughts are proven unreliable. However, I don't really think we know if Holden has grown up and is telling us his story or if he is just somewhere else and decided to backtrack on his ventures. Since this story is somewhat biographical, like you said, I think it tells more about J.D. Salinger and what he was like as a teen rather than Holden because after all Holden is just a character.
DeleteI agree and disagree with you. I think this part does show us again that this is written in past tense, and that Holden is now in a different place, and it has us question whether he's really an honest narrator, but I think he's not necessarily in a better place in his life yet. The way the story is told, we get that he's this scared insecure guy, not just from what he does but also the narration. I don't think he is really past everything that has happened to him. However, I think he is in a place where although he's not completely over his past, he's in a place where is working to move forward.
DeleteGreat attention to detail, Tamar! It's true-- this is one of the few moments that we get a sense of perspective from Holden. I wonder what that tells us, that he still keeps that piece of paper with him? I wonder where he is supposed to be as he's writing this story. How many days, months or years have passed by?
DeleteI liked this line too. I thought that it showed a sensitive side of Holden that we don't normally. Its also sorrt of nostalgic and the paper is also an connection to someone else thats not himself or a family member. It shows him reaching out.
Delete"Here's what he said: "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one."-pg. 188
ReplyDeleteMr. Antolini was definitely trying to get a quote that captured everything about Holden. Reading Chapter 24, brought so much perspective and understanding to me because I believe Holden is an immature man that wants to die nobly for a cause he believes in, but the world and everyone in the '80's is trying to be the "mature man" that wants to live a humble life. The thing with Holden's reality is that everyone wants to be on the other side (mature man living a humble life) because "the grass is always greener." I came to this conclusion where Holden is just a contradicting person with the rest of the world. His mind is so complex and intricate that he can't express himself and left everyone he ever loves. Then, Mr. Antolini enters and he seems to have figured out Holden's complex demeanor. Mr. Antolini has somewhat figured out Holden partly because he's spent a lot of time with him and partly because he reminds me a lot of Holden. Antolini is not very good with expressing his feeling verbally, but he could express his emotions very well with writing his thoughts down. Holden CANNOT express his feeling concisely, but can write his compositions very well. I am so anxious to finish the book because it seems like as we move closer towards the end, we are experiencing Holden's thoughts from the beginning.
"Then all of a sudden, I started to cry" (179)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because Holden actually felt something that wasn't depression or loneliness or just not caring. It was finally a different emotion. And he didn't stop for a long time. This made me think/realize that only Phoebe can ACTUALLY bring out all these hidden emotions, the truth, and most of all the REAL Holden. Phoebe is 6 years younger than him but she knows Holden forward and backwards. She loves him and he loves her and they have this close bond that just won't ever change.
I happen to agree with your observations. Phoebe does have an insight into Holden's behavior and emotional makeup. Part of his emotional melt down, when he begins to cry, is probably his realization of how pathetic he must seem when he has to take sisters Christmas money. How great an adventurer can he be if he has to raid his little sister's piggy bank?
DeleteI agree with your analysis of Holden's behavior. I also agree with what Gila said about him crying because of Phoebe's christmas money. I remember when I was little, my christmas money was precious to me.I think part of the reason Holden got so emotional was because of of her generosity. She gave him the money without even blinking. This shows how much she truly cares about her brother, and wants the best her him.
Deletei completely agree with what your saying. Phoebe is at such a young innocent age, where her response to what he does will not be judgemental because of her age. Also she is able to connect with him in such a strong way, where Holden can just talk about anything freely, being himself and not his phony self, talking about his emotions or life. it brings out the real Holden, rather than the one that hides his emotions, or isolates himself from being able to share them with his peers.
Delete“I felt it again, and I still didn’t feel anything, but I said, ‘I think I’m starting to now.’ I didn’t want her to get a goddamn inferiority complex.” (p. 228)
ReplyDeleteThis part stood out to me, because Holden is trying to stop Phoebe from feeling bad for herself, like he feels sorry for himself. Holden is always getting put down, and is always being told that he’s not good enough, or he can’t do something, so even when its something so stupid as making your head feel warm, he doesn’t want Phoebe to feel like that in anyway. He also does this when she says she learned how to belt, and he tells her it was good, but tells us the opposite. When Holden is lying to Phoebe about that stuff, it’s really the first time we see him lying to someone for their benefit. Everyone tells lies every once in awhile, even if its so you don’t hurt someone’s feelings, or to make someone feel better, but Holden seems to lie just for his own enjoyment. This is the first case we see him lying for a different reason, to protect Phoebe. But can Phoebe every really learn to grow from her mistakes, if Holden never tells her when she’s wrong? Did the same thing happen to Holden, which is why he seems to have a hard time moving own and growing up.
"Then all of a sudden, I started to cry... I was still sitting on the edge of the bed when I did it, and she put her old arm around my neck, and I put my arm around her, too, but I still couldn't stop for a long time." -page 186
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me so much. Holden has never been that emotional. I think that this is the first time that Holden has ever broke down crying because of something mental rather than physical. It also intrigued me that Holden broke down crying with Phoebe. She was the only one in a while that actually showed that she cared about Holden. Also, Holden really cares about his sister which probably was why it was hard for him to stop crying. Phoebe was playing the role of a mother rather than a younger sister and I think that Holden really needed that. Holden wanted to be feel safe and comfortable and he did feel that way with Phoebe which is why I think he gave Phoebe his hunting hat. It was also interesting how Phoebe put her arm around Holden and he did the same. He always says that Phoebe's too affectionate but here he actually responds to her gesture in an affectionate way also. I think it shows that Holden is showing what he truly feels. He's not lying or being a phony or even caring if he's judged. Maybe Holden is starting to realize that sometimes it's good to let things out and be affectionate and trust other people.
I agree, I think Phoebe is being the mother-figure in this moment. When we meet his mother, she seems very austere and phony to me, and Phoebe is being the source of comfort that cannot be found in his own mother.
DeleteI also agree that Phoebe is filling in the "mother-figure" for holden because she gets him and I feel like she has to since Holden's mother always has headaches and isn't 100 percent with them all the time.
Delete"'It may be the kind where, at the age of thirty, you sit in some bar hating everybody who comes in looking as if he might have played football in college.'" Pg 186
ReplyDeleteI think that this is hilarious because this is already who Holden is. He finds those older jocks or preps to be phony. He does sit at bars and hate these people. He already, in his mid-teens, sits at bars and hates people who look more successful than him. While I found this funny, it was also sort of depressing. Because, he's saying that you've hit rock bottom if you do this in your thirties. But he's already hit rock bottom.
"Then I took my red hunting hat out of my pocket and gave it to her. She likes those kinds of crazy hats. She didn't want to take it, but I made her." pg. 180
ReplyDeleteI found this line significent because I believe the red hunting hat determined how real Holden is when he's wearing it. When he's wearing it, he has this whole facade that he presents to the world where he just despises everyone, but when he takes it off, he's very vulnerable and cares about the world around him. Despite how much he loves Phoebe's innocence, I think he realizes that she has to grow up, and he's giving her the red hunting hat for protection. This hat was Holden source of protection and comfort, and him giving it to Phoebe is him finally acknowledging that Phoebe is going to grow up eventually, and he will have to soon also. I also think he's trying to put his hopes and dreams into Phoebe in hopes that she will suceed, because they are so much alike and I think Holden doesn't want Phoebe to end up like he is at all.
I totally agree, especially when you say that the red hunting hat is Holden's source of protection and now he's handing it down to Phoebe. I also think that the hat is so private to Holden-he usually wears it when he's by himself, and at his most vulnerable state-and it represents a part of him that the world doesn't see. Him giving the hat to Phoebe shows how he really can act himself with her.
DeleteI was looking for the meaning in this gesture in Holden giving her the hat and I completey agree. Holden realizes that Phoebe is growing up from the experience he's just had with her. He realizes that he can't stop her from "falling out of the rye" and becoming an adult. Giving her the hunting hat is such a symbolic gesture and I think you interpreted it really well.
DeleteIn response: I think Holden is more comfortable covering up because he doesn't have to talk to other people about his past traumatic issues. When he is wearing the hat he can be boisterous and confident because he has something to cover his past. But without the hat he may feel exposed and his thoughts wander on to darker things.
Interesting idea, Francesca. He definitely feels a sense of comfort when he puts it on. It's interesting that you suggest that when he's wearing it, it's his disguise. Why is he more comfortable incognito? Why can't he open up to the world and live life?
ReplyDelete"Eight dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. Then all of a sudden, I started to cry."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because Holden recieving money from his 10 year old sister, probably gave him a glimpse at what the future has at store for him. Holden, throughout the entire story thought of himself as the dumber sibling of his family. He even thinks his youngest sister is smarter then him and shes only 10. This was probably the turning point for Holden. Him not being able to save up money for himself and having to borrow some, shows him that this is what he will be doing for the rest of his life, borrowing money from his siblings. He will be the duck that has no place to go when the lagoon freezes over, while the rest of his siblings flee. If Holden wants to be able to flee with his siblings and find shelter for when the lagoon freezes over, he is going to have to try and build a better future for himself. Maybe that is what he will learn to do. This relates to the universe because many people are stuck in life, whether its socially, economically, or physically. Many people, like Holden, get stuck and have no place to go until they get their "aha" moment. Although it took Holden a lot of time to get there, he made it and maybe people out in the world will do to.
YES! I totally agree with you. It is what I thought too. Holden getting a glimpse of his future. But I'm not sure if this is the turning point for Holden. It's gonna take a very long time for Holden to change.
DeleteI agree with Maria and Pammy-song4. Holden is starting to look into his future and maybe Phoebe did have alot to do with it. However, i dont think that he's going change in a blink of an eye, its going to take alot for him to realize what type of person he is.
DeletePAMELA YIADOM
ReplyDelete"Eight dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. Then all of a sudden, I started to cry."
This line stood out to me because, now we see such a good sister phoebe is. But the main point is Holden realize his future and how messed up he is. I almost wanted to cry because I know how that feels. When you're messed up and your younger sibling helps you and is there for you. And in this world it happens all the time, with people living a certain life, and it taking some one close to them to help them realize how messed up they are. But dose this really mean Holden might change?
I agree. I also thought it was very emotional because Phoebe was trying to help and support her brother anyway that she possibly could. However, it should have been Holden that needed to support Phoebe. As we mentioned in class their roles certainly changed at this point.
Delete"The front door!" she said in this loud whisper."It's them!" (pg.176)
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me because, it showed how Phoebe was protective over her brother Holden, She knew that he would've gotten in big trouble if their mom knew that Holden was there. It also reminded me of how I would protect my brother when he didn't finish all of is homework. I would tell my mom "yeah,mom he did finish it." Then I would quickly help him finish it and explain it to him, we basically have each others backs. But I feel like me being the older one, it's my job to protect my younger siblings but instead Phoebe feels like it is her job to protect Holden.
I agree with you. Phoebe cared more about their parents coming home than he did even though if he was to get caught he would be in trouble. Phoebe is very protective of Holden and I think Holden realizes this because when she finds out that Holden was kicked out of school she is more worried about him than he is about himself and he is okay with that. In this situation like you said, Holden is the little brother while Phoebe is the big sister and she has his back.
Delete"He was doing was, he was sitting on the floor right next to the couch, in the dark and all, he was sort of petting me or patting me on the goddamn head... That kid of stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid."
ReplyDeleteI think this part is interesting because it explains a lot about Holden and his attitude towards people. In this part of the story he wakes up his teacher sitting on the floor touching his head in the dark while Holden slept. Holden then said that it has happened more than once. I think explains why Holden is not very comfortable around people and would rather be a social outcast. As a child he says that the perverts have done this sort of thing at least twenty times. I don't think Holden trust anybody except Phoebe because this happened. This situation relates to the world because when people have been physically/sexually abused they tend to not trust anybody and be a social outcast because they do not want their secret exposed. This makes me wonder if Holden has ever told anybody about the past twenty times a person has touched him in a strange manner, and if he did who did he tell.
"I thanked him and all and put it in my pocket. It was nice of him to go to all that trouble." pg 188
ReplyDeleteI thought this quote showed the opposite of what Holden would usually say. Instead of him thanking the man, he would usually probably critisize the man for being nice because Holden know's he would never do that. I think as the book goes on it starts to show the REAL side of Holden and we get to understand him more. Although in the next couple of sentences Holden started talking about people, he still showed empathy and he actually found something nice. Maybe he thought the man was being real or maybe be thought of the nuns and how nice they are to people. Maybe he saw the man as someone who would be someone's catcher in the rye someday. Holden changes up his personality's and does things when he wants to do it.
"He was trying to act very goddam casual and cool and all, but he wasn't any too goddam cool. Take my word." (Page 192)
ReplyDeleteWe have to take Holden's word for it yet again, a rare authority figure that he respects violates his trust. We have seen throughout his misadventures how difficult Holden finds dealing with adults. Here, at an admired teacher's house, a place where Holden has sought out, as a sanctuary: he perceives danger. Even under those circumstances at a place he should feel safe he has to flee and feels threatened. Regardless, of Mr. Antolini's motivation, which is unclear to us, Holden's reaction is clear- another betrayal by yet another "phony".
"When something perverty like that happens, I start sweating like a bastard. That kind of stuff has happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can't stand it." (pg.251)
ReplyDeleteHas Holden had a past traumatic sexual experience?
If this is true it could be the reason behind Holden's distrust for people and authority figures in general. If Holden has had experiences in his past where he felt that his "innocence" was violated it could be the reasoning behind his wanting to protect innocence and childness as well. If he felt that he was robbed of his childhood because of a certain event that took place he ould be driven to protect the child hood of other children so they wouldn't be robbed like he was.
When I say that Holden could lose his trust for authority figures I'm assuming that these "perverty" experiences have occured with other adult figures in Holden's life. If he really had such a traumatic experience with an adlt figure that he closely trusted then he will lose all faith in other adult figures who try to approach him. It could be the reason jaded personality! It's a dark view but it could be a reason for mutiple things in the book. It's a thing that we can contribute into analyzing Holden's behaviour and why he behaves as such.
I agree with what you said about how this experience could have caused his personality to change drastically. You said it might be the reason for his distrust for people (mostly adults). Maybe it is why he calls so many people phonies. When he talked about Luce, he talked about how he thinks he is a "flit" because of the way he talks and the way he behaves. Will Holden judge other people based off the way Mr. Antolini behaved. Holden kept on comparing Mr. Antolini with his brother, D.B. Will this change the way that Holden sees his brother as a family member and a person in general?
Delete""But what I mean is, lots of time you don't know what interests you most till you start talking about something that doesn't interest you most." Chapter 24
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it reminded me of how Holden progressed from the first chapter up till now. To me, Holden saying this reminded me of all the times when he pointed out he was uninterested, but realized in fact he was interested. Like the time in chapter 3 when Holden chooses to ignore and criticize Ackley for barging into his room while he was reading. However, in chapter 22, we realize that Holden did pay attention to Ackley and he felt upset that he was left out because of the mean and phony guys that went to Pencey. Why do people act the way Holden does? Many people do in fact talk about things that don't interest them just to realize that they are interested. Its mostly because we choose to ignore what we actually feel about certain things because were so used to thinking negative towards it. Holden does this too. He so used to negativity that he can't truly tell us how he feels.
"'Phoebe, have you been smoking a cigarette in here?'...'I just lit one for one second. I just took one puff.'...'I don't like that, Phoebe. I don't like that at all...Do you want another blanket?'" page 177
ReplyDeleteThis is the first time that one of Holden's parents appears in the book, and it's interesting because Holden never really describes them. Clearly, Holden's mother is a little bit off. She thought her ten-year-old daughter was smoking a cigarette, and didn't even do anything about it. She is also very nervous and has headaches a lot. We know that Holden's father is a corporation lawyer and he makes a lot of money. He also mentions on the first page of the book that they are both very touchy about personal subjects. They seem like typical wealthy adults of the fifties. The exact kind of people who would not relate to Holden at all. So, would Holden be any different if he had parents who he could talk to and who understood him? Would he feel less outcasted from society if his own parents accepted him? I think that it may have something to do with his behavior.
"Eight dollars and eighty five cents. Sixty five cents. I spent some. Then all of a sudden, I started to cry."
ReplyDeleteI chose this one because it was kind of weird for Holden to take his sisters money. Especially since it's his younger sister. It shows that Phoebe is way more 'grown up' than Holden. It's like Holden will never be that way and this is when he realizes it. Holden finally sees that his younger sister is always going to be the golden child or the grown up one. Holden is stuck as a child and can't seem to figure out how to break away from it because he's afraid or he just can't figure out a way to. Phoebe will always be one step ahead of Holden with her life on track. Holden seems fine with that for now but as he grows older it will make him feel worse and worse.
I agree. I think that this shows how much more mature Phoebe is than Holden. Also that Holden is maybe a little regretful that he didn't make the most of his childhood and education the way Phoebe did.
DeleteI agree. Phoebe is definitely more grown up than Holden but I also think that Phoebe is not the golden child. I think that there is no golden child, each kid in Holden's family is special in some way. I don't think that Phoebe will always be more grown up than Holden or always be the golden child. I think that Holden will eventually grow up.
Delete"He was the one that finally that finally picked up that kid that jumped out the window I told you about...He didn't even give a damn if his coat got all bloody." p. 174
ReplyDeleteI think this quote is significant because it shows more about people who Holden likes. He only likes a few of the people he meets/knows throughout the book, and one of those few people was Mr. Antolini, and another one of them seemed to be James Castle. This quote is significant to this because it shows why Holden likes these certain characters, and I think the main thing that attracts him to someone is how real they are. This quote shows that Mr. Antolini was real and thoughtful and he didn't think too much about what other's though or cared about. Holden likes these people because he does care about what people think, and he if he is with people who don't care about being judged, maybe they will not judge him so harshly.
I agree that Holden likes people who won't judge him so harshly. I think this is why Holden made some sort of effort to listen to Mr. Antolini's advice. I actually think his advice might have had some sort of impact on Holden because he reflects on the conversation later. Holden even calls Mr. Antolini a smart guy.
Delete"Are you smoking now?... 'Just once in a while. I'm a moderate smoker."' Page 182.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden lying? Holden is the a very heavy smoker and you read about him smoking quite frequently. He even admits smoking a lot. Somewhere in the book he says that smoking has made him short breathed and he can't do much physical activity without getting winded. Holden has an addiction but I think that he can't admit it. He thinks he can get off the hook any time he wants.
Another question that I have is whether or not smoking is a symbol in this book? Is it something like the red hunting hat? What I think about this is that smoking is something that makes Holden feel like an adult. Smoking is something adults tend to do and back in that time period smoking was probably considered cool. Smoking probably makes Holden feel tough and grown up in a cool way. Holden thinks that he can become someone cool like Jim Steele when he smokes. Smoking seems to be something Holden uses to make himself look cooler. I also think that Holden uses smoking as a stress reliever. For example when he's with Mr. Antotolini Holden seems to be stressed by the world and a lack of sleep. I think that a lot of people can relate to Holden because everybody has their own stress outlet or something that they do because they think it makes them look cool. The world is full of people just being people and that is what Holden is doing. Holden has an addiction to something and i'm sure everybody at one point in their lives has been been addicted to something too.
“I don’t want to scare you,” he said, “but I can very clearly see you dying nobly, one way or another, for some highly unworthy cause.” Pg. 188
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because I agreed with Mr. Antolini that Holden would eventually do something unworthy to find a purpose in his life. He refuses to apply himself in school which I think is closing off many opportunities for him to grow. He will probably end up giving up on his search for a career because he loses interest in things really easily. I think this is why Mr. Antolini told Holden that when he did find out what he wanted do, he would have to start immediately. This quote made me wonder why it takes so long for some people to find an occupation that they are happy with. Is it because they aren’t open-minded or is it because they didn’t know about any other options?
I most definitely agree with you as to how Mr. Antolini gives Holden this piece of advice, and to me it shows that Holden doesn't listen to important advice from teachers or whoever because he really doesn't apply himself at all.
Delete"I made it very snappy on the phone because I was afraid my parents would barge in right in the middle of it"
ReplyDelete-pg. 226
This line stood put to me because I thought that this line could show a couple ways about how Holden feels towards his parents. One of the ways could be He's afraid of them. He's afrfaid that He'll dissapoint his parents because he's been kicked out of a lot of schools and he knows that he'll let them down again, but he doesn't want to face that. I know I do when I don't do something my parents want me to do something. Or on the other hand he could just resent his parents in the way that all teenagers do. Like they don't understand him or what he's going through or what he wants.
"What he was doing was..." "...he was sort of petting me or patting me on the goddam head." PAGE 192
ReplyDelete"...something perverty like that happens..." "...happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can't stand it." PAGE 193
These quotes were extremely significant because Mr. Antolini was one of his most favorite teachers. He looked up to him and suddenly he woke up in the middle of the night with his ex-teacher stroking his face. He started out all embarrassed. He deserved to be with his teacher suddenly touching him. But then he spoke to the reader (us) very casual like. He said "it happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid." How many teachers have touched him? Why does he talk so casual about it? I can only imagine how delicate of a subject it is but how has he not done anything about it!? I wonder how his view of Mr. Antolini has changed after this experience and how he feels about Mrs. Antolini... Will he go back to talk to him? Will he talk to anyone else about it?
"What he was doing was, he was sitting on the floor right next to the couch, in the dark and all, and he was sort of petting or patting me on the goddam head. Boy, I'll bet I jumped about a thousand feet."
ReplyDeleteThis part stood out to me the most because Mr.Antolini was just showing affection in a fatherly way, and Holden totally perceived that the wrong way. Holden kind of rejects affection,and the fact that Mr. Antolini was stroking his hair, it put Holden in a very uncomfortable place. I think Mr. Antolini was just trying to be a fatherly figure, and Holden completely rejects him.
Oscar Belkin-Sessler
ReplyDeleteOctober 24, 2012
The Catcher in the Rye chapters 23-24
“Then, all of the sudden, I started to cry. I couldn’t help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it.” (PG. 179)
This quote displays one of the few times where we, as readers are exposed the innocence and rawness that is Holden. He starts to cry directly after receiving money from Phoebe. Whenever he cry’s it surprises me, but when I read this I wasn’t sure if it had to do with the money and his sister or if it was just a coincidence. I think that it was a couple of things coming together. It always seems that Holden builds up a lot of stress, anger, anxiety, and other feelings, and finally he has to crack. So he starts to cry. A lot of the feelings that he picked up from these past chapters were just coming out at that moment. I think Holden started to realize that he might be leaving home for good. Holden seems very lost, and even at this point in the book, money wont be able to solve his problems. Another reason that he starts crying is because of his lack of innocence. I think him dancing with his sister was great and it was a way of him letting go and be a little bit of a kid. But now he has real life problems and he has to deal with them…by himself.
I also found it very interesting how Phoebe immediately noticed. She's his anchor and floatie at the same time. He's sad because he has to be supported by a ten year old girl who doesn't even pick out her own clothes. He also feels bad because she's misses out on part of her childhood because she spends so much time worrying about him. And then what's keeping him going, a couple of bucks from some kid on a loan are all he has (for the time being), and after that he's really stuck
Delete"That stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can't stand it." pg 193
ReplyDeleteDuring our process through this book, we often referred to Holden's problems as kind of "rich kid" ones. Earlier in this passage, when he talks about his tie, I even took that down as a note. I realized here just another tragedy in the list of ones that seem to plague poor Holden's life, and explain why he is the person that he is.
A few pages prior, Holden compares D.B., who, despite what my classmates have said, I do believe Holden quite likes, to his teacher. Though this is out on a limb, I wonder if D.B. has advanced on Holden sexually. I understand that with the chronology of the story there is little to no indications towards it, but the comparison between the two people is definitely an important one.
This reminds me of the question of Holden being an unreliable narrator. It takes him so long to mention events which have had so much obvious affect on him. And he can't even see the affect himself. Allie and Jane and James Castle and Luce and pervs and all the in-betweens. We are compositions of everyone and everything around us. I wish he had been composed of happier experiences, but that wouldn't make a story now would it?
Just on a separate note, Holden reminds me of Charlie from Perks of Being a Wallflower. Molested, he suppresses the experiences. He's quiet and he thinks too much. No good with people, a social misfit, and as caring as is humanly possible. They're so alike.
" 'i don't like that, Phoebe. i don't like that at all ',my mother said. 'Do you want another blanket?' "
ReplyDelete(page 176)
This quote was taken from a scene where Holden had sneaked into his house to see Phoebe , and had smoked in her room. Surprisingly Holden's parents come home, so he makes the quick escape to hide in the closet. When the mom comes into the room and smells the smoke, Phoebe covers for Holden saying that she smoked, with mother responding in a very bland way. i feel that the mom doesn't really show the caring and worried side, that every mother should have towards her children. Phoebe is maybe 10 years old or younger, and claiming that she smoked a cigarette to her mother, and all the mother has to say is "i don't like that". Of course she's not gonna like it, but she doesn't make an effort to talk with Phoebe, or interrogate her about the cigarette, like how a typical mother would do. i can connect the way the mother reacts to this, to maybe how it affected Holden, and how Holden always feels he needs someone there, that maybe needs to tell him whats the bad morals and whats the right morals. Which may affect him making him more depressed and choosing the opposite of what he should be going for.
"I don't want to take your christmas dough. I can lend you some. she said" (P178)
ReplyDeleteI found this passage interesting because Phoebe didn't even hesitate to lend Holden her Christmas money. When I was Phoebe's age, I would have never shared my christmas money with anybody. Holden feels bad taking her money, so she assures him that its okay by telling him that he's just borrowing it. She says this because because she knows he wouldn't have taken the money from her otherwise.Phoebe gives him the money because she knows that Holden needs money at the moment a lot more than she does.
Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry"
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because Phoebe is the only person in the book that has made Holden truly think about his actions and what he did to himself by getting kicked out of Pencey. He avoids it myself, but phoebe really makes him evaluate himself. Would Holden's life be differs if he was schooled in the city and was around Phoebe more often? Would she have made him evaluate himself more and put more effort into important things like school? I think she would've been a really positive influence on Holden's life if he was in regular school and is in the book.