Wednesday, October 17, 2012
G-Band: Chapters 16 & 17
Post your responses here! Remember: Choose an actual line from the text. Use the text to reflect on the world and human nature. There's no right answers here. The point is to use this writing to push your thinking forward. Ask questions! Wonder about things. Look closely at the text. Respond to someone else's response. This blog will be graded out of 5 points.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was...the only thing that would be different would be you." (page 121)
ReplyDeleteHolden likes the museum so much because the animals and Eskimos and everything in the glass cases stay exactly the same each time. They won't judge him, he doesn't have to interact with them, and they are frozen in time. This comforts Holden because he can't deal with conflict or consequence, and in the museum, he doesn't have to. He wishes that he, too, could be frozen in a glass case. He also talks about how every time you visit the museum, there is something different about you. I think that this thought is troubling to him because growing up is something he fears. I also think that's why Holden decided not to enter the museum after walking all the way over there, because he didn't want to realize or accept how he had changed over time. Change is difficult for everyone, especially at this age, so I understand why Holden is being so sentimental. I also think that he uses the pronoun "you" instead of "I" to talk about himself to further remove himself from the change he's going through.
I totally agree with what you are saying here... I think this goes back to the idea that he is scared of things that he hates and also the things that he feels he can't handle. I agree that he didn't want to go to the museum because he is afraid of change. Maybe he envies the figures in the glass cases? He even said he wished he was in one. He is always talking about things make him depressed. Do things that he wished he was depress him like the glass cases? Is that another reason why he didn't go in?
DeleteI completely agree with you. I think that Holden is scared of that changes that he has gone through, and the changes he will go through. He doesn't want to grow up, or make choices that could effect him in a negative way. He wants to stay frozen in time like the things in the museum.He also doesn't want to have to reflect on the person he was last time he was in the museum. But why does Holden prefer the person he was, to the person he has become? What did you do to change who he was, to this person he doesn't like?
DeleteI think another reason he might not have wanted to go in is because he does not want to ruin the memories of his childhood with memories of his teen hood. This place captured his innocence and he does not want to go back and ruin those young memories. He loved being a child, and dreads becoming an adult. Because of this, Holden loves the idea of time being frozen. He, much like Peter Pan, does not want to grow up. He wants his childhood to have frozen like the Eskimo at the Natural History Museum.
DeleteYeah you are completely right. I feel like I can relate to this too. Like I used to have so much fun at the museum when I was younger because everything seemed so much more interesting and real. I actually went back last year and it wasn't as cool and fun as I remembered it. I regret going back because I felt like I ended it on a bad note.
Delete"Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you...I mean you'd be different in some way- I can't explain it and even if I could, I'm not sure I'd feel like it." -page 127-128
ReplyDeleteI thought that this quote was really interesting. When I've gone to a museum, I have never thought about how a certain statue was the same in comparison to me being different. Holden observes things closely, but there was something more specific about this quote. I wonder if the museum makes Holden feel better, maybe it's his way of thinking about things, maybe even the world? In another part Holden said that he's so excited to go to the museum but when he gets there he doesn't want to go in. Does this show that Holden wants to try to cope with his problems but when he's facing them he wants to leave?
Also, when Holden says that you're different in some way, I think he might mean that as life goes on, you start to notice things in different ways or start to notice things that you hadn't noticed before. For example you might notice your parents fighting but then you notice a rainbow puddle. They both mean different things and could change you a little bit.
It's in a way ironic that Holden tries to explain what he means by different and then he says that if he knew how to explain it he probably wouldn't. Holden just went babbling on about different not knowing what he meant, I don't understand why he wouldn't babble on about it if he did. I think he might be scared or not use to what he's interpreting as different.
I thought that this quote was the exact opposite of human nature. I do believe that it's common to observe things, but something so small as one statue in a museum wouldn't be identified so strongly. Also, I feel like it's human nature to tell the truth and explain yourself when it's necessary, unlike Holden in this quote.
I found this quote really interesting as well (I also wrote about it) and I agree with what you said in terms of Holden being unable to cope with his problems. I kind of disagree, though, when you say that this is not human nature. Yes, it is true that Holden is not the average teenager, but then again, no one is "normal." Holden has a way of observing small details and using them to convey his feelings. I would argue that this actually is "human nature" because most people don't usually just come out and say "I'm depressed." Or some do, but anyway, I think that for most people, it's hard to articulate exactly what you are feeling, and that's what Holden says ("I can't explain it, and even if i could, I'm not sure I'd feel like it"). I don't think that Holden is choosing not to explain himself or tell the truth, I just think he's confused by his feelings and can't really explain them.
Delete"...I was in love with her and wanted to marry her. I swear to God I'm crazy." PAGE 124
ReplyDelete"...the thing is, I meant it when I said it. I'm crazy. I swear to God I am." PAGE 125
"I probably wouldn't've taken her even if she'd wanted to go with me..." "...I meant it when I asked her. That's the terrible part. I swear to god I'm a madman." PAGE 134
These three almost identical quotes were extremely important because Holden keeps calling himself crazy. The strange thing is that he only said it right after he did something he regretted. He always says "the thing is..." or "the terrible thing is..." "...I meant it." He calls himself crazy like it is his fault. He is always blaming himself. Even if it is his fault why call himself crazy? WHY be so hard himself? Why not blame someone like Sally Hayes when he is constantly talking about how much of a phony she is and how he doesn't even like her? We know from his writing that he has self-esteem issues. He doesn't really ever seems to like himself, he is always trying to give himself more confidence, yet he is always putting himself down and blaming himself. It seems that he doesn't even pay attention to what really goes on and just hates on whom ever he thinks deserves it. In this case he thought it was him. In the moment when him, Sally, and the "phony" actor were walking he thought it was the actor's "phony" friends who he never even met!!!!! I think that Holden needs to abandon the side of him that is prejudice and actually experience things and the people around him.
I really liked this line as well. It showed a vunerablilty that we don't see in Holden often. It showed that olden cared deeply for someone that isn't a part of his family. I think that it showed olden changing or Holden showing us the real him. Holden puts on this armour in public and when hes meeting people but hes starting to show us his gooey insides...his emotional side, is what im trying to say.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"If a body catch a body coming through the rye. It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed any more."
ReplyDeleteThe lyric's significance should be self explanatory. If a body catch a body coming through the rye then that body is a "Catcher in the Rye." The significance to Holden is on any number of levels he interprets the parents to be neglectful of the little boy. Perhaps he is projecting about his own family and circumstances. The whole situation brings him a sense of happiness can it be that this what he is aspiring to? He would like to be that confident little boy singing without a care, with a mother and father in the background.
The child is walking in the street but right next to the curb this could be a metaphor for Holden's actions. He sees himself with being out of bound but still behaving in what he thinks is a reasonable fashion. The singing draws Holden closer to the boy who has "a pretty little voice" and makes him feel better. So, a little boy singing sweetly out in the street instead of the side walk makes him feel happy. This balance and course of action is similar to Holden's, at least as how he would rationalize it.
Page 115
DeleteThis quote was really meaningful to me too, because Holden always seems to have an affection towards children and he really shows it here. He loves their innocence, and he loves the fact that they are a blank slate, available for the changing. This is interesting, because as much as Holden hates the people around him, he finds little flaws in children and admires their curiousity and envies their lack of stress.
Delete"She said she had to meet her friend. Kids always have to meet their friends. That kils me."
ReplyDelete- pg. 155
I really liked this line because I thought it was really realatable. I remember when I was younger I would always find a sort of sanctuary in being with my friends tat I still feel today. But back then you had no idea about the value of being alone that I have now. You felt confertable when you were with your friends as a child, and I think holden misses that confort and that santuary of being a child
I also agree with this. When he met with the nuns and wanted to hang with Sally, he seemed to be looking for someone to vent to. He wants to stop feeling alone, and I think that's the main reason he's depressed.
DeleteI completely agree with you Owen, but I also think that Holden wishes that he could re-live his past(childhood) because maybe he would make it different in a good way, so that his future(now) isnt as bad,and lonely as it because of him being anti-social.
DeleteI agree also! Holden probably misses the comfort and sanctuary of being a child. More than that though I just think Holden feels alone. He wants friends. I also agree with Max that Holden is feeling alone and that's why he's depressed. Maybe if Holden wasn't socially awkward (like Maria said), he wouldn't be as unhappy. I wonder how Holden would turn out though if he had friends. Would he still lie? Would his personality change?
DeleteP. 130 "I don't even know what you're talking about... you jump from one-"
ReplyDeleteIn this scene, Holden and Sally are sitting down having a drink, and Holden just lets everything go. Holden is a very anti-social person, and acts as if it's better for him that he is away from people so often, yet he obviously needs someone to talk to, if he drops this bomb on Sally of all the stresses in his life. It also shows that he is a little stressed for the future, and that he is worried his ruined his life early and won't make anything of himself, even when he pretends that everything is OK. Holden is a very strange character, because he thinks he knows what's best for himself, but if he had a watchful parent, they would understand he needs some mental help and someone to talk to.
That's a good analysis. But why did he spill everything out to her? Why not Phoebe? Sally doesn't understand Holden's spontaneous behavior and thinks he doesn't either understand what he's talking about. Holden, randomly has strange responses that people don't ever seem to understand or want to understand. Have you noticed Holden turns into a "madman" near women. He either lies about his identity with them or makes rash choices that don't make sense.
Delete"...I hate actors. They never act like people. They just think they do." (Page 117)
ReplyDeleteActors are paid to play something they are not. Whether it be human or creature. I believe Holden sees actors as also "phonies", since they are playing something they are not, not very well. Take for instance, an actor having to play a role of a homeless person. His history states he came from a rich family. To play a homeless person, you must have experience as one. No matter how "good" an actor you are, you must know how it feels to play the character you are playing. Holden probably hates them because a rich actor might not be able to play a poor or miserable person well, no matter his skills, and even if they try to make it seem like they've had the experience, they haven't. If that's why Holden hates actors, then I hate them too.
I agree with you. Also i feel like actors do things just to make money or get "hollywood" just as prostitutes. I also agree with the fact that to be a great actor you must know how it feels to play the character that you are playing.
DeleteI agree, but I think Holden is a bit of an actor himself. His personality is extremely volatile and it all depends on who he's with. For example, when he's around women, he tries to be all suave, like when he phones up the prostitute on pg. 64. But when he's alone, he's very sensitive and honest.
DeleteWhile no one likes a phony, someone who is pretending to be something s/he's not and Holden would hate that. A good actor can make you believe that he has assumed the personality of the person he is trying to be portray. The best actors can connect with the real experiences in your own life to convey what they are feeling in another person.
DeleteI agree with you, actors do play people/animals that they are not which make them almost like a "phony", but I also think that he is acting in his own way. I also noticed that when Holden is with different people he acts differently.
DeleteI agree with your analogy and can see where you're coming from. I also agree with what Francesca said about Holden being an actor himself. He acts differently depending on the circumstances, and who he is with. Whenever he meets someone new, instead of just telling them the truth, he lies.
Delete"The worst part was, the jerk had one of those very phony, Ivy League voices, one of those very tired, snobby voices." page 128.
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of many things. First off, when we first started reading this book we saw Holden as a very wealthy and someone who was very ignorant. However, now the shoes on the other foot and he's pointing out that someone else is snobby. I think Holden gets most irritated when he doesnt get the attention from the person he wants it from, and then he critisizes everyone around him. Second off, he compared the voice to an Ivy League voice. It almost seems as if Holden has a problem with every little thing and doesnt mind talking about other people or stuff. He can be considered a hipprocrit because he hates when people act like something they arent although he lies 99% of the time. Lastly, He called the person a Jerk and phony. Holden doesnt know the person and never spoke to him to know how he really is. I think this part is kind of relating to his brother because his brother writes what people want to hear and the act was written based off what people would like to see.
I think this is essential because of all the snobby remarks that Holden was making about peoples suitcases and such earlier. He acts like such a snob in that way yet he gets mad when another rich guy is acting snobish infront of him!
Delete"'Don't touch anything, children,' but he always said it in a nice voice, not likt a goddam cop or anything." Pg 121
ReplyDeleteI thought that this was funny. For Holden, it seems that there is a very thin boundary between nice and phony. I feel like when he was remembering the museum guard say this, the guard wasn't saying it really excitingly, just nicely. Throughout the book, Holden has become more and more depressed. When people seem to happy or cheery, they're known as phony. This seems like it reflects on his state. As if anyone who is in a better mood than him is a fake. I can understand why he calls some people phony (Sally's usage of the word marvelous), but other times, they just seem to be having a good day. Holden just can't handle people who don't have problems.
I agree with this. I also think that he remembers this particular person and the way he said it ( the guard) because it was genuinely nice. Throughout the book there hasn't been a lot of people who are just nice pain nice to him without wanting anything in return. I think the niceness of it also plays along with how Holden thinks people are phony. In the beginning of the book the head teacher would go up to the parents that looked like they had money and would be nice to them, but Holden registered that as being phony. So there is a thin boundary on what Holden thinks is nice and phony.
Delete“The best thing though… was that everything always stayed right where it was… The only thing that would be different would be you.” (p.157-158) This quote stood out to me because I think this really shows how Holden doesn’t like change, and I afraid of change. Holden likes this museum because it stays the same, there is no expectation or pressure for it to grow up, improve, or mature. It can stay exactly how it is, which is what Holden thinks he wants. However, everyone wants to change and grow, but I think Holden, is just scared to. Scared of what he has become, and will become. That is why he did not want to go to the museum once he though about it. He realized that everything in it would be the same, with no change but him. It seems like he hasn’t been there since he was Phoebe’s age (10), and we already know that he liked himself a lot better back then. He doesn’t want to see how much he has changed, and what that change has done to him. That he has not grown, but has shrunk to someone who is exactly the kind of person who he hates. But why does he hate these type of people so much? Why can’t he realize and except this change, and try and fix it?
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think Holden is certainly afraid of change because to him it means taking on responsibilities, which we all know that he's not very good at. However, I also believe to him it means expectations that he can't live up to.
Delete"he kept on walking next to the curb and singing "If a body catch a body coming through the rye." It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed anymore." (pg.150)
ReplyDeleteHolden not depressed? What is this?! This quote sticks out to me because it shows another odd moment where Holden is genuinely happy or cheered up by something. The fact that whats cheering Holden up is a young boy playing around without a care in the world makes my theory that Holden loves children even more prominent. Holden has shown a love for children from Allie to Phoebe and now this young boy. Thinking about Allie or Phoebe always gets Holden excited and you can tell that he cares for each of them deeply. He reinforces this by getting cheered up from seeing a young boy having a good time. He loves kids! I think that he might like this boy especially because he was like him when he was younger possibly. Holden probably felt like he didn't have a care in the world when he was younger and to see this little boy without a care in the world walking and singing in the street reminded him of a time when he was like that before he had the stresses he has now. So he gains comfort from these memories.
I also think it is quite significant that the boy is singing about a Rye. Maybe it will come into play later in the book? I think that the Rye could possibly represent innocence and the bodies could be children running around in the 'innocence.' Just an idea.
I agree with you,I was shocked myself. You're completely right, Holden does love kids, which is proven by the love he has for Allie and Phoebe. And I love that idea you always bring up 'innocence" because you're right about it.
Delete"If you do something too good, then, after a while, if you don't watch it, you start showing off." Chapter 17
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because I felt like Holden was referring to his own brother, D.B. In a way Holden did admit that his brother was a talented writer, but he also mentioned how he started doing what others told him to do. Holden might not be against his brothers writing, but he might be bothered by his incredible success and social status. A major part of "phoniness" to Holden is high success and social status. He assumes if your rich, your phony. Your phony because you wear expensive clothes and go to the lousy movies. I don't believe that Holden realizes that he's a phony too. He might not have an incredible reputation or high standards like his brother, but he certainly comes from money. I feel like by judging the people around him Holden comforts himself into believing that he's not a phony, but he actually is because he goes to places like the movies and bars, wears expensive clothing, went to really rich schools and most importantly he lies and pretends to be someone he's not.
"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody'd move." pg. 121
ReplyDeleteI think this line was significent because it once again shows how Holden wishes he could be a child again. Holden despises change, but in this museum he finds comfort not only because it is a childhood memory, but because nothing ever changes in this museum. I think he is also talking about his sister in this line, because I don't think he wants her to grow up either. His brother grew up, and is now a "prostitute" in Hollywood, and he's scared that if Phoebe grows up, she might turn out phony like D.B. did. This also made me think about why some people hate change so much. Change can be terrifying to a ton of people, but why exactly?
I agree with you and I think that Holden is so scared of change because he knows that when he goes home in a few days after being kicked out of Pencey, his life will have changed a lot and he doesn't really have a bright future. I think that he likes the idea of the frozen people who don't ever change because they don't have to worry about the future.
Delete"It'd be entirely different...And I'd be working in some office making a a lot of dough, and riding to work in cabs and Madison Avenue buses, ... and going to the movies and seeing a lot of stupid shorts and comping attractions and newsreels... It wouldn't be the same at all." Page: 133
ReplyDeleteThis part stood out to me because I think it shows how Holden views the world. He thinks that if he doesn't run away at that moment then his life would never end up the same. He would just be another person on the street that rides buses and taxis to work where he would make a lot of money and watch movies all the time. When he's saying this he makes it sound boring and not something he would want to do, like it is a bad thing to have a well paying job and be able to spend money on short films.
This also struck me to be humorous. He says that he would be "working in some office making a lot of dough," but wouldn't that mean that he has a full education in order to be making that much money. He's sixteen and already got kicked out of four schools because he doesn't apply himself to the work. His fantasy on the future doesn't apply to him according to his past, but yet he says that if he leaves at that moment (while telling this to Sally) that everything would be different, even though he still hasn't said what would be different because his thoughts about how it would be different do not apply to him.
I really liked how you saw humor in "And I'd be working in some office making a lot of dough" because you show that Holden is still a teenager at heart. And I agree with you when you say you need a full education to make alot of money, and I think that Holden is almost afraid of his social class. Since he comes from money, I think he sometimes thinks he can fall back on that, but he knows that it probably wont last forever. And for the last thing you said, I think Holden is stuck in his past and is unable to see the future/present with clear eyes.
Delete"Certain things they should stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone. I know that's impossible, but it's too bad anyway." Pg. 122
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me wonder whether Holden is afraid of reliving moments in his past. I feel like Holden is always hiding something and trying to push away all the memories or thoughts that might remind him of his fears/insecurities. On page 121, Holden talks about how the best part about going to the museum is that nothing there changes. I think the main reason why Holden enjoys the museum so much is because each time he goes, he experiences something different even though it is in the same environment. It also made me wonder whether Holden wishes he could go back to the cheerful moments in his childhood with his siblings since he usually brings them up throughout the book. This quote gives insight into the real world because it shows that sometimes people choose to forget memories that bring back a lot of painful or disappointing emotions instead of reflecting on them.
PAMELA YIADOM
ReplyDelete"The poor father had on one of those pearl-gray hats that poor guys wear a lot when they want to look sharp".
When I read this line I kept picturing Holden as this judge at a court just judging people and acting like he knows everything about them. it's like he knows people based on what their wearing. I said to my self, oh my gosh he thinks he knows everything. But then I looked at it from another point. I then asked myself, what if he actually connected to them, making him judge them because he's been there before. But the point is he thinks he knows every body's life!
I agree. I think that Holden doesn't want to deal with the stereotypes that come with having a lot of money and high social status. I feel like he wants to be accepted into society but he can't seem to find a way to do this while being himself, so he continues to lie.
ReplyDeleteThis was suppose to be a response to Naz's blog post.
Delete"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody'd move."
ReplyDeleteI feel like Holden envies the things in the museum because they don't change. Holden is afraid of change which is why he rebells so much. When Holden thinks about the museum he wants to be the exhibit rather than the vistor because the visitor will continue to change day by day and get older and older while the the exhibit stays the same. Holden doesn't want to grow up. He doesn't want to take on the responsibility of being and adult. Also Holden wants to shield children from becoming an adults as well. He likes innocence and if it were possible i believe Holden would wish for him and the children to be an exhibit to preserve their innocence.
I agree with this. Holden often looks back into the past and recall memories of him being a child. He also thinks about his child brother and sister a lot. I think that these two thing show that Holden likes being a child better than having to grow up.
Delete"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everybody stayed right where it was. The only thing thing that would be different is you. You's have an overcoat this time... or you'd heard your mother and father having a terrific fight in the bathroom." Page 103-104.
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote is significant because it shows how Holden doesn't feel comfortable around change. I also think it show how he doesn't want to grow older and if he could have things his way he would always be living with innocence and simplicity of a child. As you grow older you have to deal with more and more problems yourself. Things don't come as easy anymore. There isn't going to always be someone there to tell you it's alright. Holden realizes this but doesn't want to change because he fears the world he could go to if he leaves the world he is trying to stay, in which is a child's world. Being a child is so simple; it is carefree. As a child everything seems like it is going to be okay, but you can't stay a child and Holden is afraid that he'll change into something he hates. I think he sees adults as phonies and he doesn't want to be that. That is why he wants things to stay the same.
I completely agree with you! I think Holden wants time to just freeze time become a little kid again. I feel like since Allie died, Holden was robbed of a happy childhood. Now, I think that Holden is trying to live his childhood through his teenage years. As we all know, childhood and teenage maturity are two totally different things and I think this is Holden's struggle--trying to find himself through this odd mixture.
Delete" 'Did you ever get fed up?' I said. 'I mean did you ever get scared that everything was going to go lousy unless you did something? I mean do you like school, and all that stuff?' "
ReplyDelete(page 130)
I think this passage, and more on this page. are so important and so curtail. This is the first time the the entire book (more than half way through the book) that Holden puts his exact feelings into words. Not just "lousy" or "depressed", but "I am scared of [my future and what it will bring. Especially if I keep blowing off school]". Holden is scared, very scared, of his future. He keeps trying to run away from his problems, but he just keeps running into more things to upset him. He hates all those "phony people" because they have their life figured out. He hates Ivy League collage students, and businessmen, and his brother D.B. who all have a plan for their future. He is jealous of D.B.! He is jealous that D.B. is fulfilling his dream of being a writer, even if its not in the way he planned. Holden has no plan, no ambition, and a growing sense of insecurity. Not only does he not know what to do with himself, but he is losing hope that he EVER WILL. Holden is an insecure, jealous reck, but acknowledging his feelings is a start. Holden needs someone to believe in him, so he can believe in n himself.
"This little kid was swell.. he was just singing "if a body catch a body coming through the rye." It made me feel better... and not so depressed anymore."- pg. 115
ReplyDeleteThis quote was very significant because I the way Holden was describing the boy singing the song had a deeper meaning than what was being shown on the outside. Holden described the boy as "just singing for the hell of it" as the cars zoomed by and brakes were being pushed, this little boy was carelessly humming this song. I think Holden wants his life to be as simple and careless as it was when he was a child, like the little boy. Holden probably misses not caring about the things that constantly surround people's lives (media, peers) and just wants to do things that he feels like doing. Yet, he feels happier at this point in the book because maybe he's picturing himself as this little boy and hopes to accomplish this little boy's happiness.
"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody’d move. . . . Nobody’d be different. The only thing that would be different would be you."
ReplyDeleteI think this quote/passage is very important for the plot of the story because it shows the nostalgia Holden feels for the past and how he longs for it. Comparing his life to the museum shows insight to what Holden thinks, and how being in a museum, you stay prime and innocent, but once you leave, you slowly change over time-either for the better or worse. Holden is very sentimental about his past and the fact that he wants to go back there shows his conflicts with the present today.
i agree with what your saying about Holden longing for the past, on page 120, when he was in the museum and talking about learning about Colombus "Nobody gave too much of a damn about old Colombus, but you always had a lot of candy and gum and stuff with you, and the inside of the auditorium had such a nice smell... i love that damn museum.", that quote from the book also shows how Holden only feels at place or joyful in the past. And maybe he even feels more at home and safe, like nothing went wrong, and everything was fine from the beginning.
Delete"The kid was swell...It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed any more." p. 115.
ReplyDeleteI think that this passage about the little boy singing on the sidewalk is significant because it is the first time in the entire book that Holden seems to be happy and in a good mood. Previously in the book he talks about being happy in the past and happy memories but in the moment he has always been very sad or depressed. At this part of the book he says that he feels better and on the next page when he's thinking about the museum, he actually says he's happy, but I think the reason seeing this happy little kid makes him feel better is because it reminds him of Allie and maybe also a little bit of Phoebe. The thought of his younger siblings always seems to make him cheer up and when he sees the little boy singing, it reminds him of Allie, which makes him feel happier.
I too noticed that at this point in the book the pages are filled with his depression, but at this moment and when he thinks about Allie he is happy. I do think that the little boy reminds him of his siblings, but I also think that he draws happiness from innocence. I think he gets depressed when he is put in grownup situations. When he pretends to be thirty, drinks alcohol, orders a prostitute, and goes clubbing he always ends up depressed. But when he thinks about his younger siblings, hears kids singing, helps kids fix there skates, donate to nuns, and be innocent, he becomes happy.
Delete"She was a very nice, polite little kid. God, I love it when a kid's nice and polite when you tighten their skate for them or something," (p.119).
ReplyDeleteI feel like this quote very clearly expresses Holden's fondness of children and just childhood in general. I think this is because Holden misses his childhood, and the pure innocence that comes with being a child. Throughout the novel, Holden shows not so subtle signs of this. For example, Holden always talks very fondly of his dead brother, Allie, and his sister Phoebe. Also, he calls his brother D.B a "prostitute" because he writes movies in Hollywood and makes lot's of money. Yet he has many good memories of D.B, when he was younger and a writer. I think the reason Holden loves childhood and innocence so much, is because he is scared of growing up, and what it means to become an adult, dealing with life's endless problems.
Oscar Belkin-Sessler
ReplyDeleteEnglish-Ms. Kaufman, G-band
October 17, 2012
The Catcher in the Rye chapters 16-17
“They both kept thinking of places as fast as they could, then they’d think of somebody that lived there and mention their name. I was all set to puke when it was time to go sit down again.” (PG. 127-128)
This quote gives us another fact that shows that Holden dislikes Sally. He obviously has different views than her, and he finds her a phony. So why did he ask her out? We see again that Holden craves company and somebody to talk to. Even if he doesn’t like a person he still wants to make a conversation with them, like the girls from Seattle. I feel that Holden thinks he is above Sally and her friend. He feels that they are a bit childish and immature. He thinks their conversation topics are weak and phony. But I think he is also a bit jealous. As much as Holden likes being different and having his own views, I get the sense that he is a bit jealous. I feel that sometimes Holden wishes he hadn’t flunked out of school, and he had just strayed to the society norms of a “Rich boarding school kid” Sometimes when listening to others conversations I too feel that I am above them. Some things that people say just really annoy me; in this way Holden and I are alike.
" in a way, it was sort of depressing, too, because you kept wondering what the hell would happen to all of them...You figured most of them would probably marry dopey guys..Guys that always talk about how many miles they always get to a gallon in there god damn car. Guys, that get sore and childish as hell if you beat them at golf..." (page 123)
ReplyDeleteHolden thought this to himself, while sitting in the museum observing the lobby, and how all the girls were sitting. i noticed here that Holden, worries a lot about woman and how their life will turn out. Like if it was guy than Holden, wouldn't really care at all about how the guy will do in life, and who he would marry , or whether he would be successful or not. But for woman Holden grows a really strong attachment, emotionally to their problems, even if he doesn't even know who the girl is. Does he favor guys more than girls? What would he think if it was D.B?
"I passed by this playground and stopped and watched a couple of very tiny kids on a seesaw...and I put my hand on the skinny kid's end, to sort of even up up the weight, but you could tell they didn't want me around, so I let them alone." -P. 122
ReplyDeleteHolden really likes small children. He doesn't think they are phony. When he talks to teenagers and adults ( usually male ), he finds them to be phony. He doesn't like when people do things he doesn't like. With the children here, we understand that he actually thinks some people aren't fake. Is there a purpose in this quote, or is this just a random comment?
"The best thing though,in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody'd move." (Pg.121)
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me because, I thought he was referring to the exhibits don't change or go anywhere,each time you see it, it will always be the same. He likes it because Holden is afraid of change. Therefore I feel like, he doesn't like the workers/people because the workers aren't always the same and they have different shifts and the people that come to the museum are always different and they change.
When Holden saw the kid in the street singing the Catcher in the Rye song it made him happy because it gave him hope that there was someone out there who was "catching" kids from adolesence. Although holden might be the catcher now he will need someone to catch him because like any job, you can't do it forever since you get old. When Holden saw the kid it was probably the happiest he has been in the book so far.
ReplyDelete“When I got to the museum, I wouldn’t go inside for a million bucks. It just didn’t appeal to me- and here I'd walked through the whole goddamn park and looked forward to it and all.” (P.122)
ReplyDeleteI found this quote really interesting. Holden had put in all this effort to make his way to the museum ,yet he didn’t even go inside. I think he would have gone into the museum if Phoebe was with him because it seems that she brings out the best in him. I think Holden chose not to go into the museum because he was feeling pretty crappy. He didn’t want to go into a place that held such great memories for him while he was in such a negative place.
I agree with you completely,Pheobe's presence would have changed the outcome of Holden's trip to the meuseum. I also think that Phoebe not only brings out the best in him, like you said, but brings out the child in him becasue he sees so much of himself in Phoebe. I also think that Holden didnt want to ruin the good memories he had of the meuseum, but it also brought me to wonder, why would he make the trip to the meuseum? Did he not think about the outcome of that, given that Holden alwasy thinks about evrything?
Delete