Post
your reader responses here: Choose a line from the text and explain why
it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem
important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a
connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about
Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in
general?
Then, respond to someone else's post. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward. Ask more questions to keep the dialogue going...
"Boy, I felt miserable,. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed." (98)
ReplyDelete"What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window. I probably would've done it, too, if I'd been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed. I didn't want a bunch of stupid rubbernecks looking at me when I was all gory." (104)
I don't think anyone realized how lonely and depressed Holden ACTUALLY feels. Even though, they aren't expected to because he always hides them or covers them up or doesn't tell anyone about them; and he lies about his identity. No one would know how he really feels or what he really thinks because he never discusses them to anyone. He doesn't really have anyone. He insults everyone he meets. I think Holden wants to feel wanted and not alone yet he won't give anyone a good enough chance so he can talk about his feelings or get to know a person. Being the way he is, he probably will eventually find that person who will listen and who he'll open up to. But he's so alone right now.
How do we know that he isn't just saying that for attention. The only way he every expresses his emotion is saying "miserable" or "lonely". But why does he feel that why? He misses Jane, we know that. And we also know he does't have a lot of friends. But I don't think thats worth dying over. Was he SERIOUSLY considering killing himself? No, he wasn't. He turned it into a joke. He didn't mean he literally wanted to die. Or did he? It all goes back to Holden being an unreliable narrator, doesn't it? How can we ever know he is really speaking the truth?
DeleteI agree, he constantly hides,covers up and doesn't even tell anyone about his feelings but I feel when he is talking about Allie, there aren't any lies and also you can feel and understand how he misses Allie and the connection that holden had towards his brother
DeleteI agree with Selma, but I think that Tamar , you should take Holden more seriously in this situation , like Selma said we can tell that he doesn't lie when he's talking about his brother Allie, he loves his brother and hasn't given us a reason to not believe when he talks about his brother. I do understand though, Holden is a very unreliable narrator , however Holden has shown us based on his actions when he's lying and when he's genuinely telling the truth. If we know that he doesn't lie about his younger sibilings what makes this situation any different?
Delete"After they left, I started getting sorry that I'd only given them ten bucks for their collection... I needed to keep some dough for the tickets and stuff.. goddam money. Its always end up making you blue as hell." Page 113
ReplyDeleteHolden keeps on complaining. He always finds thing, even extremely small things, to bug him and make him upset. Holden is a very unhappy person. He is never satisfied with life, it is never good enough for him. Some people are like that, always finding something to complain about. But what about the people who have so much to complain about, but don't. Its all a matter of perspective, i suppose. Holden comes from a very well off family, but is extremely insecure. Holden is a bit of an akward person, and for one reason or another, doesn't really have any friends. I wonder what would really make him happy? What would make him feel good about himself, confident, and happy? I wonder if anything really could.
This is a really good analysis. I would ask the question why, though? Why can't Holden ever be satisfied, even though he comes from a pretty well off family? I don't think that Holden complains just for the heck of it. I think that he is really deeply insecure and even self-loathing, so he always has to question his actions, and of course he will never think that he made the right choice. It reminds me of the time when he was lying to Mrs. Morrow on the train, and after he told her he had a brain tumor he said he was sorry as hell he did it. Holden seems to be constantly regretting his small decisions, but what about big things like getting kicked out of three schools? Does he regret that, too? I think that maybe he does, but he won't let himself dwell on it.
DeleteI agree, that Holden is a very insecure person and that he complains a lot, but since he hasn't had TOO bad of a life, other than Allie dying, what makes him so insecure? Is it just part of his personality or did something cause it?
DeleteYou bring up a great point. He is always complaining about things he hates and how horrible is life is. But then he even admits that he is wealthy and his family and him are very well off?! I think he's a good person, but someday he just has to stop and appreciate the things that he has. Despite his brother's death.
DeleteAlthough Holden is upset it's interesting that previously in chapter fourteen he stubbornly refuses to give up the five dollars that the elevator operator claims he owes the prostitute. In standing up for himself and refusing to give this money, he gets himself beat up. However, after this he decides to give ten dollars to two nuns. The contrast between the five dollars which he refuses to give up and is stolen from him and the ten dollars that he just gives away underlines the mixed emotions he has about money and his own worth.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"Then I'd crawl back to my room and call up Jane and have her come over and bandage up my guts. I pictured her holding a cigarette for me to smoke while I was bleeding and all. The goddam movies. They can ruin you. I'm not kidding." -page 104
ReplyDeleteI think that Holden is feeling more lost and insecure than ever right now. He wants so badly for someone to come take care of him and keep him company, yet he insists on being alone. More specifically, he wants Jane to come take care of him. But why? And why doesn't Holden just call Jane? He says it's because she's still in school, but I think that he doesn't call her because Jane is the only person besides his siblings that Holden really actually loved and opened up to. Maybe it is hard for him to call her up because he's afraid of being real and being himself, which he would have to do when he talks to her. Or maybe he's too nervous to call her because he's afraid of what she would think of him. Either way, it's obvious that Holden wants someone to take care of him because he's scared of being all alone. I don't think that this feeling is uncommon among teenagers. As much as they want to be independent, sometimes it is scary to be on your own and you want someone to come take care of you. Of course, Holden won't come out with his feelings and say "I miss Jane," instead he blames his feelings on the movies.
I completely agree with your response. Holden is feeling lost and can't cope with the unfamiliarity of being alone. I think Holden just doesn't want to call Jane because everything he ever really loves... is taken away from him. I think he feels scared that if he starts interacting with Jane again, he might lose her to something beyond his control.
Delete"I can't stand ministers...I don't see why the hell they can't talk in their natural voice. They sound so phony when they talk."-pg.100
ReplyDeleteI feel like this quote was pretty important because I started to think about actual ministers and why their voices are different when they're giving sermons. I realized that ministers had so much emotion and strength when they speak about a certain topic of God because they feel overtaken by the power of their words. So, as we know all too well as readers, Holden is a very unemotional person and I think his pessimist and bored attitude is preventing him from experiencing the joys of life. Also, the pastor is not trying to be phony. Pastors, priests, and ministers alike act the way that they do... because that's who they are. I think Holden just can't accept people for who they are because he-himself hasn't been accepted by any small part of society.
I agree with you on the fact that Holden is an unemotional person. However, I believe Holden is accepted by society, but he just chooses not to be. It could be because he has a negative outlook on life and the people who surround him. A person in our society wouldn't be bothered by a ministers voice, but since Holden chooses not to be a part of the society, he is bothered by it.
DeleteI agree with you totally. Holden horrible attitude is keeping him from experiencing the joys of life. But what if he thought every body was fake to him. That he can't believe anything they say. And he can't understand them. But you're still right, he just can't accept people for who they are.
Delete"What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed." p. 106
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because it is another example of how different he is when he is alone rather than with other people. Also, it shows a very vulnerable and sad side to Holden that made me feel really bad for him. It is clear that he misses his brother so much that he does crazy things like talk to Allie when he's alone. I think that the reason he does this is because he says that he told Allie he couldn't come bike riding with him and his friend, and he still might feel guilty about it, that's why he tells Allie to go get his bike. Maybe talking to Allie is a way of making up for times when he felt guilty.
yeah i completely agree. He always seems to talk about the good times he had with Allie. Also maybe he thinks of Allie when hes depressed because allie is a big part of why he is depressed
DeleteI agree with your analysis of this quote. I too chose this quote and I also felt like Holden felt guilty, but I wonder why? Maybe Holden feels like he pushed Allie away too much when he was alive and know he wishes allie could be here so that they can spend alot of time together?
DeleteI also agree with your quote. I think that when Holden talks to Allie it's his way of making up for times when he felt guilty, and farther, his way of coping or trying to fix the situation. Maybe if Holden had let Allie join them, he would've looked at things differently. Is it possible that he would have confronted his situations instead of trying to makeup for the situations?
DeleteI agree completely I never really thought of him feeling guilty about the bike thing but now it makes a lot of sense. That's why he talks about/to Allie all the time and that's why he can't let Allie go.
DeleteHoldens memory of Allie really stuck out to me because it showed how much he loved his brother and how devastating his death was to him. Holden says that when hes depressed he talks about Allie. This is because Allie is part of the reason why hes so depressed. Also Holden seems to try to bring him back to life all the time with all these memories or stories about him.
ReplyDeleteWhat quotation specifically stands out to you? What does Holden say to Allie when he gets depressed? Why might this be significant? See Selma's post below...
DeleteI agree with you, but doesn't Holden also feel depressed that he is not with Jane?
Delete"... I started talking, sort of out loud,to Allie. I do that sometimes when i feel depressed."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because while i was reading this passage I wondered why Holden felt guilty? I figured that him and Allie, as fond as he spoke about him, were probably not as close and Holden probably wanted them to be. I think that Holdens feelings toward Allie are strong. Holden probably regrets not going biking with Allie when he asked because maybe he figured that could have been the bonding time that would have been good for their relationship. I just wanted to know why the remorse and guilt Holden was feeling was there?
"I keep telling him to go home and get his bike and meet me in front of Bobby Fallon's house.... Anyway,what happened was , one day Bobby and I were going over to Lake Sedebego on our bikes... Allie heard us talking about it,and he wanted to go, and I wouldn't let him."
ReplyDeleteI feel like Holden is so lonely, and by him constantly saying,"Bring your bike Allie..." it makes him feel a little better and that someone is there with him. Also it makes Holden feel like Allie is still there and in a way connected with him since he was really close to Allie and his death had a big impact on Holden.
I agree, Selma. I also think it's significant that he wishes he could go back in time and re-write history. He regrets not allowing Allie to come play, so he recreates this conversation in his head to make himself feel better-- to make it right. I also think it's significant that he didn't let Allie come play that day because he was too much of a "child" (99). After all we've discussed about childhood vs. adulthood, Holden's coming of age process, and how much he appreciates the child perspective vs phony adults, it's ironic that at that time, the reason he wouldn't let Allie play was because he was a child. What do you think?
Delete"What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window. I probably would've done it, too, if I'd been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed." Page 104.
ReplyDeleteThis quote was significant because from what I've learned about Holden and how much he lies, he must keep in a lot of anger. After he was beat by Maurice, he had a fantasy of killing him with a gun and then right after that he felt like killing himself! I wonder why he doesn't just stop lying and for once telling someone the truth. The author, JD Salinger even said that writing this book was "a relief" and that it was very similar to his teen-hood. Did Salinger hold in the same amount of anger? Did he have the same suicidal thoughts? Holden always says that he regrets the lies he says, but he just keeps on lying. I know he has morals after the scene with the nuns in Grand Central Station, but he holds so much anger and hate in that it damages him and makes him hate himself even more! I know that he is a very private person and lying is his way of locking people out but maybe that level of security just isn't worth it.
Great response, I am so glad that you brought this up! I to have been feeling that he has coped up hatred, and anger. I think that if Holden does start to tell the truth, than his future will change. At this time Holden is heading towards not having a job, not having a family, and living off his parent’s money. Holden needs to let himself go, and he needs to start appreciating, and letting others appreciate his real self.
Delete"'Don't you feel like talking for a while?' I asked her... I sat down again and tried to keep the old conversation going. She was a lousy conversationalist." -page 100
ReplyDeleteThe quote really shocked me. Holden has showed a continuous interest in girls. In the past texts he doesn't really talk negatively about a girl. This leads me to think that Holden more than anything just wants a friend. He wants to talk to somebody, he just feels lonely.
Contradicting that though, Holden also mentioned that he always stops when a girl tells him to stop. Does he not want to have sex because he's scared of growing up? Why doesn't Holden want to grow up?
Many people don't want to grow up, but most people accept the fact that they can't be young forever. Why is it so hard for Holden to comprehend the facts of life?
I agree with you. I think he just wants someone to take care of him, mainly his mother because he seems to have a strong connection with older woman like Morrow's mother and the nuns in the coffee shop. Although he does talk negativly about some girls when he calls up Sally he says that she is an idiot. I think he only has respect for older woman and a few younger girls.
Delete" I don't owe you five bucks...If you rough me up, I'll yell like hell. I'll wake up everybody in the hotel. The police and all." -Pg. 102
ReplyDeleteI think Holden was very scared here, because Maurice (the elevator boy) went to Holden's room and demanded $5 for the prostitute. Holden knew that it was only 5 dollars, but Maurice eventually beat him up for it. This stood out to me, because Holden seemed really scared and started to cry. His emotions don't really come out as much, but here the reader could really see that he was scared. After being hit, Holden continued to insult Maurice which was a very bad idea. He gets hit in the stomach and pretends to be shot. He is a very unusual character.
I liked this line to. I agree with you. It showed that Hoden had some weakness and that he was vunerable.That he was scared. Earlier in the book we saw Holden as this fearless guy, that had these weird impulses but now you see him at his lowest. Well at least the lowest that we've seen him yet.
Delete"But I'm crazy. I swear to God I am. About halfway to the bathroom, I sort of started pretending that I had a bullet in my guts." Chapter 14
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because I felt that Holden could take a totally dramatic moment and turn it into child's play with his creative mind. Maurice, the man who offered him a prostitute, really messed with Holden for not giving him the five dollars that he apparently "owed"him. It was practically terrifying for Holden, he said "I was still sort of crying. I was so damn mad and nervous and all." It also reminded me of how Holden could take a serious moment and turin it into a joke by lying. By acting like he had a bullet in his gut, he brought amusement to his boredom.
I agree, and I also believe that Holden does this as a way to escape. But I disagree when you said Holden was bored. I believe that Holden doesn't just use lying as amusement, but to as a way to get himself out of situations such as this. In this moment, he's basically terrified and he uses his imagination to help him cope, just as a child would.
DeletePAMELA YIADOM
ReplyDeleteWhen he called Sally Hayes. Pg.105, chapter 15.
The line that stands out to me is "It took me years to find it out, in old Sally's case". This line stands out to me because it seems like he is trying so hard to judge Sally,and try to find a way to make her stupid to him. This line seems important to me in a way because this is telling us even more about him. That no matter who it is he tries to find a way to judge them, even if it takes him a long time like he said. My question is that, why is he trying so hard to find a way to judge some one, even when they haven't done anything to him?". This relates to almost every page in the book, when he is judging over and over again at everyone.This line is saying that Holden is messed up and self fish. Instead of finding the good of people, he tries hard to find the bad of people, even if it takes him a long time. Honestly I don't think anybody in the world is like this.
I agree with how your saying that he goes out of his way to find the bad in someone. Holden is a very judgmental person but I don't think he is all that selfish because it says in the book that he gives money to the nuns and he also says that he would have liked to give them more money but then they had to go.
Delete"I felt like praying or something, when I was in bed, but i couldn't do it. I can't always pray when I feel like it." (Page.99)
ReplyDeleteIn light of his reaction to the two nuns, who he hopes won't ask him if he is Catholic (and to whom he gave ten dollars) , Holden's attitude towards religion is unclear to us and himself. He sounds like someone who could easily be persuaded to join a cult given his frame of mind.
This is an interesting observation. What makes you say that he could be persuaded to join a cult? What is it about him, or people in general, who join cults?
DeleteI completely agree. Holden seems very lost, and doesn't quite know who he is yet or what he believes in (in terms of religion). As a result of this, he is quite vulnerable, and people who are lost, and vulnerable are usually more likely to be drawn into a cult.
Delete"What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide... I probably would have done it, too if I'd been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed. I didn't want a bunch of stupid rubbernecks looking at me while I was all gory." Page 104.
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote is significant because it shows how depressed and lonely Holden is. I also think it shows how private and held back Holden is. This passage takes place when Holden gets beat up by the pimpy looking elevator guy named Maurice over money Holden owes. This quote show Holden's attitude toward life. It shows how Holden doesn't want to deal with the outside world and doesn't know how to deal with his problems. I think that a lot of people share the same experience. Meaning that sometimes they just want to give up and not have to face any of the problems that they have. I'm not saying that a lot of people deal with their problems through suicide because they don't. Most people want to live and I think that even though Holden says that he would've committed suicide if nobody was there to care is a lie. I think that Holden wants to live, he wants a better life for himself but he doesn't know how cope with the problems he faces. Teenagers go through the same things as Holden. They also don't know how to deal with situations that they face and I think that is a way we can relate with Holden.
I agree with your response. Though, every time, Holden talks about suicide, he seems to try to make an excuse why he shouldn't do it. Even though he believes he's alone and no one cares for him. Which is incorrect since there's his parents, Jane, Phoebe, D.B., etc... With this thought he talks about killing himself, but at the end of it, he quickly says he doesn't want people looking at his "gory" body. Even though he believes he's alone, he still doesn't really want to commit suicide.
Delete"Goddam money. It always ends up making you blue as hell." Page 113. This quote shows how people have grown too fond of money. Money has strong power over human beings, even though its just little, rumpled pieces of paper. Money is very popular in society, including American society. Holden says money makes you sad. Yet, he comes from a very rich family, where his father is a lawyer and he is sent to private schools. Most children from such families, don't go against it, but enjoy it. Holden probably feels his parents care mostly about money, that's why he doesn't talk to them. He is surrounded by people who care a lot for money, like, Jane's mother. He doesn't want to turn out like them. Also, money makes people lonely, because you never know who is your friend or "friend" that likes your money. Holden is already lonely, and doesn't want to get any lonelier.
ReplyDelete“We’ve enjoyed talking to you so much,” she said. I said I’d enjoyed talking to them a lot too. I meant it, too. Page: 112
ReplyDeleteThese two sentences really stood out to me. At this point of the story Holden just finished talking to a nun about school. I think that he only enjoyed the conversation is because she was older. One sentence before he says that she reminded him of Ernest Morrow’s mother, and he clearly liked talking to her. I think that he’s more comfortable talking to woman but specifically older woman. In the past chapters he talks very strongly about how woman should be treated. (the couple at the hotel squirting water at each other) I think he only gets along with older woman and not men, because in the beginning of the book when Mr. Spencer is talking to him he completely disregards what he is saying. I think he has more respect towards woman than men and gets along with them better because he sort of feels alone and childish leaving school and all. I think he wants to be taken care of because he is out alone in New York and wants his mother to be there and tell him everything will be alright because he knows its not.
"I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed."
ReplyDeleteI chose this line because Holden has such a hard time with life. He's so lonely and he has no one to talk to or turn to for help so instead he talks to his dead brother. He still feels like he can trust Allie. I believe in order for Holden's life to get back on track he has to let Allie go. He has to move on and talk to someone new and who's alive. He's living in the past which doesn't help anything. The he goes on a says he's thinking about suicide which is his biggest cry for help. I feel like if Holden just gets the guts to open up and let go of his past he will be happy and not get into trouble.
I actually never realized that he needed to let Allie go get his life back together great analogy but, I believe that Holden's problem is not really about talking to his dead brother Allie , I think that it makes him feel better talking to Allie but i do understand your point of view. I think that main problem that leads back to all his problems is his Brother D.B and his parents. His parents not paying him attention and D.B growing up and leaving Holden behind to be a "prostitute".
Delete"What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window. I probably would've done it, too, if I'd been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed. I didn't want a bunch of stupid rubbernecks looking at me when I was all gory." (104)
ReplyDeleteThese to quotes really shocked me and actually made me very sad.
I can connect with Holden in a much deeper level now and I understand how he feels. This quote shows that Holden is more than just a grumpy , mean , careless teenager. This quote makes the reader understand how depressed Holden actually is. I also believe that this quote makes this book even more relatable to the reader and helps the reader make a strong connection with this fictional character, Holden.
This quote really struck me as well. Holden is a very strange person mentally, but this is the first time he shows a serious problem with his mind. It is a very dark quote from Holden, and his "reasons" for not doing it are completely different from a normal persons.
DeleteI actually take him a little less seriously after this quote. He seems to be getting depressed throughout the chapter, but I don't think he's serious about this. It seems like another teenage whining, saying that they have enough homework to make them want to kill themselves. It also helps prove the point that he is very self-conscious. He states the main reason he wouldn't kill himself is that he didn't want people looking at his dead body, which I thought was interesting.
Delete"Anyway, these two nuns were sitting next to me, and we sort of struck up a conversation." pg. 109
ReplyDeleteThis line made me think about how lonely Holden really is. He goes and talks to random strangers, even phonies that he absolutely detests, just so that he doesn't have to be alone with his thoughts. I think Holden does this because he really despises himself, and he's devastatingly lonely and wants companionship, but is afraid to open up to people for fear of being judged. He does this with Sally Hayes, and those girls in the club. He doesn't necessarily like those girls, but he talks to them anyway. This also made me think about the reason why humans crave social interaction so much and why we can't just be alone. People frown upon others who don't interact with other people, labeling them as weird and anti-social, but why?
Wow , great analysis and i agree completely and i ask myself the same questions, i can't add more you said it perfectly.
DeleteCrystal-- and anyone else-- try to answer Francesca's question! It's a good one! :)
DeleteGreat post! I really agree with you, especially how you said Holden makes new identities because he's afraid of being judged. He's desperate for companionship, yet he won't open up to anyone because he's too scared to be himself. He thinks if he doesn't like himself, than no one else will. I think people who don't interact with other people are labeled weird just because they are different from everyone else. Some people believe there's such a strict mold of what people should be, that anyone who doesn't fit it perfectly is considered different, or weird, and part of that mold is being social.
DeleteHumans are a very social beings. We created language so we could communicate and socialize with eachother. I think that naturally we craze interaction with others because of our socialness as a species. By ourselves we question to much and possibly scare ourselves by not being able to distract ourselves from these questions or thoughts. For example how Holden's thoughts wander and somethimes become extremely depressing while he is alone. When we are with people we are distracted from these thoughts and can emerse ourselves in the lives of others instead of focusing on our own problems.
DeleteThis is one theory that I have about this but I think that it is a great question and that there are millions of different ways and examples that could be used to answer it.
It often comes down to the type of person the human is. In my opinion.
I love how you really analyzed who Holden is as a character. You can tell throughout the book that Holden really is lonely, or likes to be lonely- depending on his attitude. You broke it down to that Holden just wants to have someone to talk too, and depending on whoever is next to him, he'll start talking to them to fill up the void that's probably inside him. And to possibly answer your question, I think we frown upon the outcasts because they remind us of who we could be or who we use to be. We are fearful of what we see in others, and the only reaction people have is to fill that will fake friendships and attention. Once we fill that, we see ourselves as perfect and complete, making us the perfect person-the one who has all the friends, is social, and accepted by others.
DeletePage 112 "I really did like talking to them"
ReplyDeleteI really liked this part because Holden showed genuine kindness o these nuns that were complete strangers to him, and that took my by surprise. He usually judges people by the way they look, especially when a couple pages before he was talking about how angry it made him when people didn't carry a nice suitcase. Something so materialistic and just plain judgmental being said right before being completely open and happy to talk to two nuns. He also said he was atheist and some atheists are so against religion that they hate religious people. He was very open and very nice to them. Holden surpises the reader again and again with his personality, and never shows a common pattern into who he respects, now his brother, his senile teacher, a prostitute, and nuns.
Maybe Holden likes these people because he admires how open they are over their identity. A nun, walking around in her uniform, has presented herself as one. Religion is part of a quite personal identity, and these two women have had the courage to make theirs public for all eyes to see. This is a feat especially since, as you Stephen mentioned, many atheists as well as people of other beliefs tend to judge very quickly based on this one aspect of a person. Along with the characters you mentioned, the mother of Ernest Morrow was a person of great statement. She has on a flowery hat, sticks her bag in the middle of the aisle, and chooses to sit next to a stranger on a close to deserted bus. She has confidence in herself/her actions, and is clearly not trying to hide who she is, or minimalize attention towards her. Holden however avoids social contact, and is a stranger behind all the lies he is living. I think he admires these people because he wishes he was more like them
Delete"The goddamn movies. They can ruin you. I'm not kidding." page 104
ReplyDeleteJust before this line, Holden is internally dramatizing Maurice's gut punch. He describes himself as this character portrayed so clearly in old fashioned(current for him) black and white films. In the very beginning of this book, Holden warns us not to mention the movies due to his distaste for them, yet continuously not only brings them up, but fantasizes his life and himself into one. I personally find movies to be a wonderful escape. Acting as though we were another person is one of Holden's favorite pastimes, which confuses me greatly. Bogus names and stories, impulsive and odd actions, internal theatrics, I've come to realize that Holden is more phony than any of the innocent bystanders who are simply living their own lives and have the misfortune to pass through his mind. It's is often said that brilliant people are the most likely to underestimate themselves, and vise versa. In this instance, Holden is a phony who can't see this truth. Holden is not happy with who he is, but he sure isn't doing anything to change.
I agree that Holden continuously fantasizes his life and himself into a movie because he can't accept reality. I also think that Holden is jealous and somewhat disappointed that he has not figured out who he wants to be yet. In the movies, everything is planned out for the characters so I think that Holden wishes things could be that simple for him.
Delete“What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window. I probably would’ve done it, too, if I’d been sure somebody’d cover me up… I didn’t want a bunch of stupid rubbernecks looking at me when I was all gory.” (p. 136) This quote stood out to me because although this is a more serious topic than instances earlier in the book, Holden in making excuses again. Claiming that he wants to commit suicide, he just doesn’t want people to see his body. This is obviously untrue, because if he were really that depressed he would just do it. I think Holden wants the reader to feel bad for him, and make it look like that he would be brave enough to do that, when from what he shows us earlier in the book, he likes to act tough and make excuses, for why he doesn’t. But why does Holden want to seem so tough? Why does he care so much what the reader thinks?
ReplyDelete"I fekt like praying or something, when I was in bed. But I couldn't do it. I can't always pray when i feel like it"
ReplyDelete-pg. 130
I liked this line because it showed that Holden was trying to go out of his confort zone. And that he's trying to accept that there is something that is bigger than him. He's letting go of his ego and also asking from help, weather it may be from a friend or god.
Oscar Belkin-Sessler
ReplyDeleteEnglish-Ms. Kaufman, G-band
October 15, 2012
The Catcher in the Rye chapters 14-15
“All of a sudden I started to cry, I’d give anything if I hadn’t but I did.” (PG. 103)
After reading this line in the book, a feeling struck me. This feeling was similar to the feeling of having a bucket of cold water dumped on you. I realized that Holden is only a kid, a teenager, only one year older than me. Throughout this book I have over estimated his maturity. He acts so old, and he rarely shares his emotions with anyone except us. He always wants to come off as cool, slick, and all knowing. But when it comes down to it, he is just a kid. I think at this moment, Holden would give anything to be back as a kid with Allie, D.B, and Phoebe. I imagine him wanting to go back to the times when your weren’t responsible for anything, and when there was no real fear in life. Holden shows his side of sensitivity and his true self, of just being a teenager. He has so many problems and responsibility in his life that I don’t blame him for braking down like this, but it was very unfortunate that it had to happen at this moment. I do think that this did help Sunny feel a bit of emotion and sympathy towards Holden, the same way that Holden felt for her earlier.
"Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get depressed." Pg. 98
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it kind of shows Holden seeking forgiveness from his younger brother. I think the main reason why Holden chooses to talk to Allie when he is lonely is because he believes that Allie won’t judge him or hold him responsible for all his lies. Talking to Allie might make him feel more secure about himself since he is usually feeling guilty. This quote also made me wonder why Holden constantly surrounds himself with other people when he doesn’t really like social interactions. I wonder if observing and criticizing other people is his way of figuring out his self- identity.
"The goddam movies. They can ruin you." (pg.136)
ReplyDeleteHolden always goes off about how phony hollywood is and how much he despises the movies, but here he is talking about some big movie like scene in which he gets shot and crawls into bed and calls up his girl. Holden would probably consider this phony coming out of anyone elses mouth but instead he describes how gory and badass the scene would be with him in it which I find hilarious. I think that Holden really does love the phony Hollywood movies and their dramatic endings but he just never wants to admit it or he doesn't like the Hollywood actors who play the roles in those movies.
To expand on what you wrote, about how Holden criticizes the movies as being "phony", I think that he only does that to make himself feel better. Holden really despises the movies and Hollywood in general because they remind him of his brother D.B. And this reminds Holden of how his brother is a "sellout" and a "prostitute." When in reality, he is simply jealous that his brother became so successful in life.
Delete"Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine... I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when i get very depressed," (p.98).
ReplyDeleteI feel like this is the only time that Holden really lets us, the reader, see what he is really feeling. Throughout the book, he always seems to avoid talking about his real feelings, choosing to distract himself and the reader by pondering silly things, or ranting about how phony people are. This is a significant moment for Holden, finally admitting how he is feeling. I think he has hit a real low point in his journey, feeling very lonely, and as he said, depressed, even though he is surrounded by so many people in New York City.
"I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed."
ReplyDeleteI thought this passage really showed Holden as who he really is and what he thinks. Throughout the book, Holden has a very joking air about him, and as you read this, you get to see the suffering and hurt he's been through. And now, since Holden is actually showing what he reals, you can tell how alone he is in New York and what he really thinks.
i had the same quote as you, and i agree with you, although in addition i feel that he shows to the reader/audience that while he is alone, and thinks about the past, you learn more about him as a person, and you can see the sympathy he shows for the character at a greater view point. For example "i keep telling him to go home and get his bike and meet me in front of Bobby Fallon's house" this was the line after your quote, and you can see that when he talks about someone he really cares deeply about he takes stories from the past.
Delete" What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed.i keep telling him to go home and get his bike and meet me in front of Bobby Fallon's house" (pg 98)
ReplyDeleteThis quote was taken from the text, when Holden was alone in his hotel room, and started talking about how he was so depressed. i personally thought that this quote really showed how Holden reveals his affection for someone he loves dearly. He always gets into telling the audience about it, from stories from the past, which makes me think, is Holden stuck in the past? can he not make happy experiences as he moves foward in his life?
"They said they were schoolteachers and that they'd just come from Chicago and that they were going to start teaching at some convent on 168th street or 186th street or one of those streets way the hell uptown." (P 110)
ReplyDeleteI thought the way he spoke a bout the streets represented how narrow minded Holden is. It shows how he's really only been exposed to so many types of people, and that is why he judges everyone so harshly. He's only been around rich, shallow kids and adults, and assumes that everyone is like that. This is extremely ironic considering his family lives in New York City, which is one of the diverse cities in the world.