G-Band: Chapters 21 & 22
Post your responses here! Remember: Choose an actual line
from the text. Use the text to reflect on the world and human nature.
There's no right answers here. The point is to use this writing to push
your thinking forward. Ask questions! Wonder about things. Look closely
at the text. Respond to someone else's response. This blog will be
graded out of 5 points.
"She wouldn't come out, though. You can't even reason with her sometimes. Finally, I got up and went out in the living-room and got some cigarettes out of the box on the table and stuck some in my pocket. I was all out." -page 172
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me. Holden finally decided to come see Phoebe and risked getting caught by his parents. Holden described Phoebe in past texts as a good listener and someone who usually understands what you're talking about. I think Holden came to see Phoebe because he missed her but also because he values her opinion. Maybe he came to see her because he wanted to know what she would think about him getting kicked out of school again? When Phoebe was upset by this Holden immediately grew defensive and pointed out all of the alternatives. I think that Holden relied on Phoebe but when she was upset he realized how badly he messed up and he was trying to reassure himself because she couldn't. When Holden started to feel upset because it was almost like he "let down" Phoebe again he left the room. I think that this made Holden the most unhappy. He loves Phoebe so much and for her to look down on him makes him feel really bad. Sometimes people smoke when they're depressed or stressed out about something and I think that perfectly symbolizes how Holden felt after. He had been smoking packs of cigarettes all day because he was stressed/depressed and when he felt even more depressed after talking to Phoebe he put more cigarettes in his pocket. I'm still wondering why Holden won't just confess to his parents though? Maybe it isn't that he's afraid of getting in trouble necessarily, maybe he's afraid of being a disappointment?
I agree, I also think that phoebe is a great listener and a person who he can talk to since she gets him as Holden has described previously. I think that Holden does care about her opinion, I think that he didn't realize how badly he messed up until he saw phoebes reaction.
DeleteI completely agree with you. I think Holden is disappointed in himself for giving up, and doesn't want anyone else to be disappointed in him. Thats also why he plays it off to be no big deal. He wants to make it seem like its not big deal, and he's glad it happened, and I think he is glad in some ways, but he knows now that it was a mistake, and he should have done more to avoid this.
DeleteI agree with you. I think this is a really important moment in the book because hes starting to take risks. Like going to his house with his parernts still there to see his sister who he has been mentioning throught the wole book and who he obviosly misses and here he shows those emotions
DeleteI too agree with Morgan's point, that Holden values Phoebe's opinion. My blog post was also about Holden receiving Phoebes judgement about him flunking out of Pencey Prep. I thought Holden's sad reaction showed why he doesn't want Phoebe to grow up like him. It also showed that Holden needs something or someone like Phoebe to push him to do better in school and life in general. It's almost as if Phoebe is more mature then Holden sometimes.
Delete"You know what I'd like to be? I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. That's all I'd do all day."-pg. 173
ReplyDeleteThis passage has to be my favorite part in the whole book. Holden seems so sincere and sweet when he's talking to Phoebe. It's as if this whole time he was someone else and now finally we get to see the real side of him :). I thought that this quote was significant because it brings to light so many things that has happened in Holden's life. Holden is, I believe, truly heading in a downwards spiral because he's so lost and can't seem to fit in-anywhere. So, I feel like... since he thinks he can't really do anything in his life and because he loves and wants to preserve innocence he could combine those two things to be a catcher in the rye so to speak. Although, I honestly think Holden wants someone to catch him from destroying his life. However, its just hard for anyone to do that since his pessimist thoughts doesn't agree with his innocent emotions.
I agree with you. It seems he rarely opens up to people. But with Phoebe, he gets a sentimental and innocent side. Maybe its because she's a child, and in his mind she's filled with innocence and he feels more sensitive. With other people though, he never shows much of Holden, himself. He either makes up an excuse for why he isn't so open with them, with children, he's more different.
DeleteI agree with you as well Nirvani, I think its very important for Holden to open up to Phoebe because as you said we definitely see his true emotions. As readers, we learn more about his personality we he's talking to her then we would if he were talking to us. However, I don't think Holden wants anyone to "catch" him, but I d think he wants to be the person to help Phoebe succeed and become a better person then he is.
DeleteI agree that he is much open to Phoebe , and he seems like a different person. But I still can't change my mind about Holden because no matter what he's still the same rude person. Yes he's different with kids, but I think that's because they can't judge him and they're not a messed up teenager like he is. Is that true? or am I the only one who thinks this way.
Delete"All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they'll do practically anything you want them to." (Page 158)
ReplyDeleteThis is a quote I like, because it is very psychological. Its true. If you want someone to do something for you, at times, say a very confusing thing and it'll happen. Yet, not always does it happen. Its very hard to understand the human mind. Of course, say a confusing thing to Holden, he'll either think you're a phony or hate you. Maybe in the schools that he failed, he was confused. And that's why he didn't do the work and failed. Holden's mind works more differently than other people. So, if you say something confusing to a person, they'll do something for you, but for Holden, he'll just quit.
I think you make a great point. I also thought the same things you mentioned in your analysis. But I think your right, the human mind is very complex and people react to certain things very differently. However, with Holden, we might get mixed reactions if something confusing is said to him. He'll probably think the person is very smart, though, because I though "Old Luce" was a huge jerk towards Holden, yet Holden said he was a very intellectual guy! He could be a bit unpredictable at times so logic doesn't play into Holden's perspectives.
Delete"You know what I'd like to be? I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. That's all I'd do all day."
ReplyDeleteThis part is so vital to the entire story. It's where everything kind of comes together. Holden finally realizes what he wants. He doesn't want kids to grow up and become adults. He wants them to keep their innocence. The catcher in the rye signifies that the catcher would be be catching kids from growing up and hitting adolescence. I believe Holden doesn't want them to grow older because he fears that they might end up like him. Holden is afraid of himself in some way. He doesn't want to see Phoebe grow up and end up a screw up like himself. He doesn't want the kids to become phony and be judged when they're older. When you're a kid your innocence protects you from the outside world. As a kid you can be or do anything you want without being judged.
I agree, this is obviously a very significant part in the story because it's the title. It is the only time that Holden actually says what he would like to be. I also agree that Holden doesn't want Phoebe to grow up. Phoebe is exactly the kind of kid that he would like to "catch," so to speak, from adolescence because she is so smart for her age and she "kills" him, but once she grows up, that will wear off and she will be susceptible to judgement.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"A million of reasons why. It was one of the worst schools I ever went to. It was full of phonies. And mean guys. You never saw so many mean guys in your life. For instance, if you were having a bull session in somebody's room, and somebody wanted to come in, nobody'd let them in if they were some dopey, pimply guy." Chapter 22
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out because I felt that it truly reflected Holden's personality. It reflected his personality in the sense of that it showed him as a much different and caring person. Is Holden a better person than we really think he is? What I mean by that is Holden may seem like a judgmental guy who is extremely anti-social with a tough personality, but he's really not like that at all. Once you get to know Holden, you definitely see his true feelings towards people who are selfish and mean and you can see that Holden is not one of them. Reading more about Holden makes me see that he's not wrong for judging people, like the ones in Pencey, because he truly tells us who these people are. Holden shows us that most of the people he knows judge others on how they look, what thy wear and what job they have. I feel like Holden uncovers these characters for us and being observant is one of the traits he holds for himself.
Yes, I agree, and I found it interesting how vulnerable Holden truly was in this part of the book. He's really putting himself out there, and finally he's not being judged. I think this is a reason why he likes Phoebe and children so much as well. They don't judge because they haven't learned to yet.
DeletePAMELA YIADOM
ReplyDelete"Boy, was she wide-awake". (Page 162)
This line stands out to me because we get to see a different side of Holden. A moment with him and his little sister Phoebe. And my main point is that it tells us more about Phoebe, How she get's excited talking about this play she's in with her brother, holding his hand, and being wide awake. But this moment doesn't last for long, instead of Holden listening to his sister about the movie, he is too busy worrying about being caught. So the old Holden is back :(.
"But the trouble was, I couldn't concentrate. About all I could think of were those two nuns that went around collecting dough in those beat-up old straw baskets...and this boy I knew at Elkton Hills." page 170
ReplyDeleteThis whole passage stood out to me because Phoebe, who is ten years old, is questioning Holden about something that he has never even asked himself before. It would be easy for most people to think of something that they like, but Holden barely likes anything. The only things he could think of were people whom are not in his life anymore but who had made an impact on him for some reason. He mentions the nuns, the boy who died at Elkton Hills, and Allie. I think that he likes the nuns and the boy, James Castle, and of course Allie, because they all in a way were innocent. I think this relates to when he says he wants to be "the catcher in the rye" because he wants to make sure that no more innocence is lost to the cruel world.
I agree with your analysis. Phoebe seems to know more about Holden then he does, and it surprises me how Holden isn't even embarrassed by that.
DeleteI agree with both of you. Holden is using his thoughts and memories to escape the question he is being asked. This part reminded me of when Holden was talking to the teacher at Pency and he started to think about the ducks in the lagoon. He uses his thoughts to escape from having to really think and talk about his feelings. Both times he is discussing something that obviously could make him a bit uncomfortable. And both times he begins to think about something that seems completely unrelated. How is a guy killing himself by jumping out a window, or two nuns that he liked related to a conversation about positive thinking with his sister? Or even related to each other for that matter?
Delete"You know what I'd like to be? I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. That's all I'd do all day."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because obviously its the title of the book but because of the meaning behind the quote and the title. I think that this quote is trying to convey that Holden wants to save children or people in general from losing their innocence. This is very important to Holden because he did not have anyone to save him from losing his innocence or "falling down". Holden wants to be the Catcher in the Rye because he wants to make a difference and he doesn't want the rest of the world to become like him because he despises himself. I think that by Holden being the Catcher in the Rye he can "save" his sister Phoebe , and preserve the moments with his brother Allie.
I agree with you but I also think that holden doest want children to take their innocence for granted because maybe for Holden that is what made him turn out the way he did. I think Holden doesnt want any child to go down his path, therefore I also think that what/where your inncoence takes you is also a big thing not only in the story but what Holden doesnt want others to lose and is upet that he lost that.
Delete"You don't like anything that's happening,"
ReplyDeleteThis quote by Phoebe really stood out to me because of the relationship that Holden has with Phoebe. First of all, Holden denies getting kicked out of school, but Phoebe knows him to well to know that he is lying. I thought that was really impressive and kind of cute in their relationship. I also liked how Holden really feels modest around Phoebe. When Holden is in public and around people he doesn't know, he judges them and as a narrator, makes it seem like he thinks he's better than everyone else. I liked how he gets modet around Phoebe because she really keeps his feet on the ground. Holden as a narrator makes it seem like he has a plan, or doesn't have a plan and doesn't care, but when he talks to Phoebe, his ranch idea is immediately shot down and he realizes he doesn't have anywhere to go. Holden should not have gone to boarding school because a person like Phoebe in Holden's life would turn him around, and maybe turn his situation around.
I like what you said about Phoebe keeping Holden's feet on the ground. I completely agree with that. I also agree with what you said about Holden not going to boarding school. I think if he had gone to another school and had been living at home, he might not be in such a bad situation.That being said, absence does make the heart grow fonder. I wonder if Phoebe and Holden would have the relationship that they have now if he hadn't gone to boarding school.
DeleteI think what you say about him saying he's great and got it all figured out when he really doesn't is very interesting. I noticed that when she said that to him he got very defensive. He said, " 'Yes I do. Yes I do. Sure I do. Don't say that. Why the hell do you say that.' " I think that he got caught really off guard because he is so used to Phoebe being all lovey dovey that when she criticized him of being such a cynic he got depressed.
Delete" 'You did get kicked out! You did!' old Phoebe said. Then she hit me on the leg with her fist."
ReplyDelete"...put the goddam pillow over her head." "...She wouldn't take it off, though. You can't make her do something if she doesn't want to. All she kept saying was 'Daddy's gonna kill you.' " PAGE 165
Throughout this entire book, Holden talks about how much he admires his sister. He talks about how much he admires, cares, and loves her and also how he wants the best of her because she deserves it. He made it very clear that she cared for him as well. And that was proved on page 165. When Phoebe confirmed that Holden had been kicked out of school, she got so worried about him. She kept on saying "Daddy's gonna kill you" which showed the other side of their parents. Holden only ever talks about his mother. The only time he ever talks about his father is when he briefly talks about how he is always working 24/7. This quote was so significant because it gave more information about Holden, Phoebe, and their relationships with each other and their parents.
Holden said that his dad would send him to military school and he would just go to the ranch up in Colorado. Holden kept on asking Phoebe to take the pillow off her head. He knew that she was fine and that she didn't want to. Was he worried about something? Did the pillow over her head make him nervous after Allie's death?
I completely agree with what you said! And i have a few things to add. I think in addition to what you said, Holden doesn't like when people feel bad for him. It may seem that Phoebe is just pissed at him but really she feels bad. One of the biggest things he cares about is that Phoebe has a good like and that she isn't like him. I feel like he cares more about what happens to her than what happens to him. Why? Do you think that Holden cares about his own life?
Delete“ ‘Anyway I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobodies around --- nobody big, I mean--- except me… What do I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff… That’s all I’d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all.’ ” (p. 225)
ReplyDeleteThis passage stood out to me because it brought up many topics of discussion. The first thing I noticed, and I think maybe the most important thing we get from this, is that he would be the only big person in this place. Everyone else would be kids. Holden makes it pretty clear, here and in other places throughout the book, that he just likes kids more in general over adults. He misses his childhood. He also thinks they’re less phony. Less afraid to be themselves, therefore less likely to judge other people who are having trouble with that, or might not be comfortable showing who they really are, like Holden. I think he is overall a good person, which is why he wants to do this thing, which in the way that he describes it even though it seems like isn’t a big deal, would be stopping little kids from falling of a cliff. But at the same time, he’s trying to take the easy way out. Trying to do anything to not have to come to terms with who he is, who may not be who he wants to be, or to face judgment if this person doesn’t fit the “cookie cutter lifestyle” that is expected of him. Why is Holden so scared though? Why does he care so much what people think, especially if he doesn’t even seem to like the people who would judge him for not being perfect?
I agree with what you are saying. Holden just wants life to be easy and carefree. You can tell that he wants this because he is always looking back into his childhood memories and he always has such fond memories of being a child. Being a child to him meant having innocence and you can see throughout the book that Holden wishes to be innocent. I think that Holden is scared to become an adult because he's not done being a kid and I think that Holden fell off the cliff to early because of Allie's death. Allie's death seemed to have made him depressed about life.
DeleteThe interesting part about this quote that you cited. Is Holden's self concept of being a "catcher in the rye for thousands of little kids". This is coming from someone who knows that it is hard for him to concentrate and says right afterwards "the trouble is, i couldn't concentrate." The expert on Holden seems to be his little ten year old sister Pheobe who sees through him, tells him the truth, and lets him know that his biggest problem is not liking anything.
Delete"All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they'll do practically anything you want them to." Page 157-158.
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote is signifiant because it shows Holden's understanding of the way people's mind's work. The passage on page 157-158 talks about Holden convincing an elevator boy to take him up to the floor that his family lives on. This passage conveys Holden's sense of dominance that you can see only a rich kid would have. Holden thinks that he can convince anyone but that's not really how the world is. No one is alike, people are always going to be different with different levels of intellectuality. In the book you see that Holden has only been exposed to a certain way of life and that way of life seems to be like a life where the rich are on the top. You also see that Holden has never visited much of NYC he only knows a couple of clumped neighborhoods that all seem to be rich. I think that a lot of people in the world have only seen one way of life and that shapes their view on things just like it does for Holden. Many people have learned only one way about certain things and they think that way is correct because they know nothing else and you can see Holden doing this. He has been taught in a way where he is always on top and he is always right. Holden has never stepped out of his comfort zone. Holden has experienced one way of life.
" One thing? One thing I like ... One thing I like a lot you mean?" P. 169
ReplyDeleteThis is significant because Holden likes very little things. He thinks everyone is phony, he doesn't want to be like everyone else ( lawyer, doctor ), but doesn't want to be unique. Holden is a complex character that is a hypocrite. He complains that other people are phony, but he changes him name to Jim Steele to sound " suave as hell" making him phony. On the next page, Holden told us about a random boy he knew from Elkton Hills, James Castle. You could tell that he didn't want to answer the question because he doesn't like anything ( except for Allie and Phoebe ). He always tries to escape from conversations he does not want to be part of, here and with Mr. Spencer in the beginning of the book.
I agree with you, it does seem like Holden is a hypocrite... great evidence. I never thought about that. Also, I do agree that he improvises a little to avoid questions he doesn't want to answer. I wonder why Holden hates so many things? I think that this is one of the first times that Holden has ever thought about it, I wonder if he'll do anything about it or try to change his perspectives on people.
DeleteI agree with you both, Holden is a hypocrite and is complex. I agree with you Morgan because I think that he does try to avoid questions. Maybe that's probably why he lies to certain people.
Delete"Anyway, I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody's around - nobody big, I mean - except me. And I'm standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff - I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That's all I do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really like to be." (168)
ReplyDeleteThis passage stood out to me because it made me think about how Holden really cherishes children and those childhood/kid years that everyone gets to experience. Once those times are over, we miss it but we can't go back. Holden misses his childhood probably and so thats probably why he cares about Phoebe so much and loves Allie, his two little siblings. He wants them to have a childhood he either never had or he doesn't want Phoebe to grow up to be like him. Holden, even though he feels alone pretty much ALL the time, he has little gateways that help him to not feel alone. One of those ways would be through his little siblings.
I agree with you. I think he likes his childhood years better and doesn't want to let go of them. I also think that he has a stronger social connection to people younger than him. He likes Phoebe and Allie more than he likes D.B, he tried to play along with the kids on the swing set, and he asked a coupe of small kids if he could play with them. He's more mentally and socially connected to younger people.
Delete" You didn't get kicked out or anything,did you?" (pg. 165)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because, it showed what a close bond holden and phoebe had. He didn't even tell her anything and she suspected it. She automatically knew even though he kept saying
" no one told you that I-". I felt like Phoebes reaction was what you would and wouldn't expect. You would expect it because little kids are very emotional and then you wouldn't expect it because I almost felt like Holden mother was talking rather than Phoebe.
I agree with you how Phoebe and Holden have a very close bond. Phoebe is so quick for her age and knows Holden off the back of her hand. She can dissect him so quickly she just knows what he is going to say/thinking. It is like Phoebe is Holden's mother, seeing how quick and what her reactions are for Holden.
DeleteI disagree. I think the Phoebe knew he got kicked out because he has a streak of getting kicked out of schools. I think that it was just because of his history of getting kicked out of schools that she knew, not because they had some deep connection.
Deletei agree with what your saying about that strong relationship between Phoebe and Holden, because Phoebe is at such a young age, where as a child your innocence is heart warming and emotionally attaches you to that person. in addition adding on to what you were saying about Phoebe being compared to Holden's mother , Phoebe takes on a role of asking him questions about , for example "How come you're not home Wednesday?" , which is something that a young kid normally wouldn't worry about rather a mother, which just shows how solid Phoebe's affection is for him.
Delete"All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they'll do practically anything you want them to." page 157.
ReplyDeleteThis qute stood out to me because its a very relateable quote. For Holden the only way he thinks is certified in getting his way is by just mumbling something, and then the people, not wanting him to repeat it, wont question is and just asuming that what he said is true. In this passage Holden is trying to get in the elevator to go to his floor so that he can visit Phoebe. Then the elevator man ask him where he is going, and Holden as usual, lies, but the elevator man catches him in the lie, and like typicial Holden, he is able to get out of it and make it upstairs. In order for this to be done Holden just simply mumbles something, knowing that the elevator guy wont say anything or even try and desifer what Holden said. This qoute shows me that Holden's perspective of people is pretty sad. When Holden speaks to anyone he lies or he trys to trick them. I think Holden see's other people, as not on his level and as if they shouldn't recieve respect from him. I think his belittleing of people is pretty sad and shows that the way Holden has lived as a child really did mold him for what he is going to be like as and adult. I wonder where Holden has seen such actions and if he was heavily influenced as a child? Maybe thats what he is trying to run away from or gain? This quote relates to the real world because in modern times people get there way or get by: by just talking fast,and others usually dont speak up either out of fear or lazyness. This quote is also relateable because many people have tried to get by: by just talking fast but haven't succeed and Holden has so I have to give him credit.
I agree with you that Holden sometimes looks down on people. I also wonder if he does this because he has high expectations for himself to do better than those around him or if its his coping mechanism to deal with not being able to meet the expectations of scoiety.
Delete"You know what I'd like to be? I mean if I got my own goddam choice? ... You know that sing 'If a body catch a body comin' through the rye? I'd like-" page 173
ReplyDeleteI found this part of the book to be interesting. In this part his sister is asking him what he would like to be in a few years and he says a catcher in the rye. I found this funny yet still interesting. It's funny because he choose a fictional poem and wants to claim his life off of that. Yet, it is still, interesting because being a catcher in the rye means helping people. Holden is not very social and would rather stick to him self in situations, and is not very affectionate. Out of all things he chooses to be a catcher that saves people from falling off a cliff, this involves physical involvement and some sort of social attachment to be able to save someone from falling over a cliff. I think he choose this because on page 173 he says " I keep picturing all these little kids," he wants to be a catcher for kids. I think that he's sort of stuck on the limbo/in between stage of adulthood and childhood but is more closer to childhood than adulthood even though he is 16 years old.
"All right, name something else. Name something you'd like to be."
ReplyDelete(Page 172)
Ten year old Phoebe appears to know as well or better than Holden knows himself. She asks him to tell her what he would or could do. This is after telling him that he doesn't like anything, Holden's reaction is "I wasn't listening." It is obvious that Holden should listen very carefully to what his little sister has to say. His reaction instead of reflecting on her opinion and his situation is to pinch her. It would seem that Phoebe may be more mature and realistic than Holden.
I Agree with you. I feel like Phoebe is more concerned about Holden's life then he is about his own life. He seemed really careless when she saw the world at what it really is. She also recognizes the consequences.
Delete"Our foyer has a funny smell that doesn't smell like anyplace else. I don't know what the hell it is. It isn't cauliflower and it doesn't smell like perfume - I don't know what the hell it is - but you always know your home."
ReplyDelete-pg. 205
I like this line because first off I think its true. You know whenever you walk into someone elses house or you hug someone and they have that smell. That smell is unique and saved for you and only you and the person that smells that way cant smell it. And also it shows Holden's desire to be home. I think that this is, yet again another dislay of Holden's venerability tht he doesn't want to show.
"You dont like anything that's happening."
ReplyDeleteI think Phoebe is really wise for her age. I think Phoebe is so clear with her words and she's the only one who could possibly get through to Holden. Holden has a very unique personality, kind of like he doesnt have one at all. He is so cynical and sees the word with a very narrow field, its no wonder Phoebe can see what Holden is thinking on his face. Holden is so ahead of his time to have the attitude of not caring, people can see it written on him.
"'Oh god, Phoebe, don't ask me. I'm sick of everybody asking me that,' I said. 'A million reasons why. It was one of the worst schools I've ever went to. It was full of phonies. And mean guys. You never saw so many mean guys in your life.'" pg. 167
ReplyDeleteI found this line interesting because I had never heard Holden really describe the guys he went to school with as mean. He'd say that they were dopey morons and all, but never mean. This showed the very vulnerable side of Holden, and I also found it interesting that he's saying this all to his sister. I think the fact that she's still a kid has something to do with his vulnerable state around her. He trusts children a lot more because they haven't had the expectations of society forced down upon them yet. Holden now has to deal with society, especially in the 50s, where there was this cookie-cutter image that everyone had to follow, and if you didn't, you would be ostracized. Holden doesn't want to follow this image, because he doesn't fit in there at all, but if he doesn't, then he will be seriously judged and he is terrified of that. This made me think about how everyone really does care about what others think. If someone says that they don't, those are the ones that really care the most.
I agree with your point about Holden saying the guys at his school were mean, for the first time. I think that the reason he's only saying this now is because he feels like he can open up to Phoebe.
Delete"name something you'd like to be. Like a scientist, Or a lawyer or something.." page.172
ReplyDeleteThis quote really impressed me. I've been waiting to meet Phoebe throughout the whole book and i would have never thought her as someone so educated. She really looked up to Holden and worried about his future more then he did. She was so concerned about what his father is going to do to Holden. She couldnt get it off her mind that he may get in so much trouble and she will end up not looking at him the same way. He's always looking for someone to talk to so i wonder is Phoebe really the one. Does she understand him and is she really how he described her to be?
"Stop swearing. All right, name something else. Name something you'd like to be. Like a scientist. Or a lawyer or something." (Page 172, Phoebe talking to Holden)
ReplyDeleteI think, in a lot of ways, Phoebe is more mature than Holden. She tells him to stop swearing. Its a command, she tells him to do it not asks him to. She treats him like he is the younger sibling rathe than vise versa. He should be the one asking Phoebe what she wanted to be when she grows up, but instead she is asking him. She really cares about him, and kind of sees that he doesn't quite fit in with 'normal' society, although she wants him to. I wonder how they would treat each other is Phoebe really was the older one. I don't think it would be the same. Holden likes Phoebe because it is someone he can protect and feel responsible for. He would hate it if some older sister of his was bossing him around, but since Phoebe is younger it is okay. Holden and Phoebe have a really great relationship, although it is more complicated than it appears.
Thats so true! They way that they interact is so odd. One minute Phoebe will be having these huge childlike reactions and acting like your average little sister and then she has these moments of sudden odd maturity that really stand out.
DeleteI wonder does Holden like her better innocent or mature?
That's a really good question, Jack! Somebody try to answer it!
Delete"She says she likes to spread out. That kills me." Pg 159
ReplyDelete"Kid's notebooks kill me." Pg 161
"She took them right out of my hand and then she put them in my drawer of the night table. She kills me." Pg 164
I thought this was funny. He was constantly describing his sister and saying her traits "kill him." I think that now, he's using she kills me as a way to say she's not phony. Everything he describes shows her innocence and childhood. He is showing us how she's not trying too hard or trying to impress everyone. She's just acting like a little girl, without care about how she's viewed. I thought that it was really interesting how he says he finds this humorous. That's how he shows that she's pure and not phony.
"What are you- a child for god's sake?" (pg.213)
ReplyDeletePHOEBE IS A CHILD. Holen seems to love children. He always emohasizes with them and is always talking about how they "kill" him. But here he is asking Phoebe why she's acting like such a child. This confuses me because Holden seems to usually accepting of kids and all their innocent triats but I feel like he may have gotten fed up with this. This may be due to the scene with the kids and the seesaw. He could be feeling despressed because he realizes that he doesn't have a place in childhood and he's jealous of Phoebe because she has one so he asks her to grow up and stop acting like such a child because he was asked to.
"She's a true madman sometimes" p. 165
ReplyDeleteI think that this line is significant and important because I think it shows how alike Holden and Phoebe are. Throughout the book Holden often calls himself a "madman" and "crazy." And here, that is what he's calling Phoebe. I think that it worries him that Phoebe is so similar to him in some ways because he really doesn't want her to end up the way he did.
“Even if you did go around saving guys’ lives and all, how would you know if you did it because you really wanted to save guys’ lives, or because you did it because what you really wanted to do was be a terrific lawyer, with everybody slapping you on the back and congratulating you in court when the goddam trial was over, the reporters and everybody, the way it is in the dirty movies? How would you know you weren’t being a phony? The trouble is, you wouldn’t.” Pg. 172
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it really shows how difficult it is for Holden to decide what do to with his life. He doesn’t want to do what most people would do, like become a successful doctor or lawyer. I think he wants a career that will give him a chance to prove his own self-worth without needing the approval of others. Overall, I think this quote shows the struggle of choosing whether or not to follow social norms. I feel like people only choose to follow social norms because it’s the route that has been proven to guarantee a lot of success. I think people are less likely to do their own thing, because they don’t know where it will lead them. It might seem like a huge risk to them.
It stood out to me when Holden was talking with Phoebe because i noticed that it was the first completely normal and sincere conversation he has had with anyone throughout the entire book. It really shows how important she is to him. Also when phoebe told holden that there was nothing that he liked, i completely agreed with her. Holdens response was that he liked Allie and that if he could be something when he would grow up he would be the catcher in the rye. Phoebe is like Holdens therapist in a way. He can talk to her and they both confront his problems.
ReplyDelete"Then all of a sudden she said, 'Oh, why did you do it?' She mean why did I got the ax again. It made me sort of sad, the way she said it,"(p.167).
ReplyDeleteThroughout the story, Holden speaks very fondly of his sister, and in this scene, the reader, finally meets her. I felt like this quote showed how close he is to his sister, that he value's her opinion so highly when it comes to him flunking out of Pencey Prep. This also reveals that contrary to what Holden has been trying to convince us, he does feel bad about being kicked out of three schools and failing his classes. Holden had no motivation to try hard and do good in school, as he thought it lead to becoming just another "phony," but he cares what Phoebe thinks. Holden doesn't want Phoebe to be like him, because he failed in school and is seemingly lost in life. It is almost as if Holden has given up on himself, and needs someone that matters to him to help him get back on track.
I found it very interesting how just about everyone badgered him about failing so much when it came to school, and it only really got to him when Phoebe said it. She's really the only person place or thing he really cares for. Yeah, he likes Jane. But not enough to be in the mood to call her for the first half of the book. Phoebe and him connect and I believe that she's the only reason he's still alive, or even at the place he is now. On the Humans Of New York (HONY) page, a picture of a man with a few suitcases was posted. The man said (paraphrasingly) that he is 70 now, and even though he's broke, it had taken a lot of money to get him to this point. It's safe to say Holden hasn't accomplished anything, but he probably would have accomplished a lot less had Phoebe not been there, if that makes any sense.
Delete"I told you. They let us out early. They let the whole-" "You got kicked out! You did!" old Phoebe said." (p165)
ReplyDeleteI found this passage interesting because the interaction here doesn't immediately strike me as sibling interaction at all. It reminds me more of a child trying to lie to their parents, and their parents seeing straight through it. Because he went to boarding school, Holden's parents weren't with him as much. As a result he has nobody to tell him when he has crossed the line and needs to shape up. Phoebe is able to tell the truth the minute he starts lying. Like parents usually do, Phoebe makes it obvious to Holden that she's disappointed in him.This is interesting because Phoebe is younger than Holden, yet she seems much wiser.
Oscar Belkin-Sessler
ReplyDeleteOctober 23, 2012
The Catcher in the Rye chapters 21-22
“’It would’ve made you puke, I sear it would,’ I said” (PG. 168)
I feel like this is such a common thing for Holden to say. He says this to us about five times in every chapter, so why is this time so important? For one thing, he isn’t talking to us. He is talking to Phoebe. It is almost like a breath of fresh air to see him confide in someone the way he confides in us. I love how he anticipates the reader, and Phoebe’s feelings on things. This helps with seeing the story through his eyes instead of the eyes of another character or the eyes of yourself. Seeing him talk to Phoebe like this shows that, the reader is like is own personal Phoebe that he can talk and confide to. Maybe he always wants company and attention so that he doesn’t have to rely on us to confide in. When he told Sally his plan of running away I thought he was crazy. I didn’t think his plan was crazy, but I thought he was crazy to ask Sally to go with him. Why Sally? Well really no reason, just because she was the one person that was there and the one person that was listening to him. He just craves someone to rely and talk to, that’s why we, the reader, are not really unique. We just happen to be the only ones listening.
i took the pieces out of my coat pocket and showed her." i was plastered," i said. "Gimme the pieces," she said. "i'm saving them".(page 163)
ReplyDeleteThis quote was taken, from when Holden visits his house to see Phoebe secretly. He had gotten her a record yet it broke, and here it shows her response, to him telling her that it was broken. i feel that this line of the story really captured Phoebe's innocence and how someone can gain such a love for her. i personally, really connected with the book, or at least i felt like i was being put into Holden's shoes, because just by her saying "i'm saving them" makes you feel such a heart warming stage, on how sweet she is. And Holden through out living in New York City for those few days feels lonely and depressed because he doesn't have someone like Phoebe, who he can feel so safe, and loved and more so accompanied by someone who looks up to him in such a way that you don't want to leave them.in other words, she kinda reminds me of having that very motherly vibe.
"He was a skinny little weak-looking guy, with wrists about as big as pencils."
ReplyDeleteHolden constantly judges the people around him negatively, except for this boy. He even goes out on a wing and lends the kid a turtleneck sweater, when he isn't so sure he wants to. I was dumbstruck when I read this passage. Holden may be less of a pessimist than we thought. Maybe he is right about Pencey kids. I just cannot see why none of the boys tried to stop James from jumping. Over some remark. But I think Holden felt so defensive for this kid not only because Holden isn't an asshole(sorry for the language) and cares about human life, but also because this kid did what he never could do. James stood up to the bully. And yeah, maybe he comes off as a wimp, and yes he was pushed to the limit of what he could handle, but before that limit arrived, he refused to take back his words. I want to say i'm proud of him, but I feel as though that may seem to be condoning the whole event. This is also one of the few times Holden isn't materialistic. He talks about his sweater because it is his connection to this boy, but not once does he complain about the loss. It may seem obvious to all of us that we should and would have reacted the way Holden did, but considering his track record, expectations cannot be put too high. And I mean, what a reflection of what he thinks of the school. Phoebe asks him to name something positive and this is what he comes up with? I wonder why Holden hasn't mentioned this before. It's also interesting that for the first time, Holden doesn't try to place all blame on the individual. They were guilty for James's death, no doubt about it, but Holden got mad at the school and legal system for not punishing those boys more. Not his principle, or some chief of police he met that we never hear about. It's more of an issue with structured systems, which is new for us to see.
That's interesting, Rosie. This comment sort of reminds me of our class discussion about what happened to Mr. Antolini. How did he go from being an innocent child to an adult who is inappropriate with children? What social structures/societal ills create such negative behavior, and why are humans so susceptible to it?
Delete“I felt it again, and I still didn’t feel anything, but I said, ‘I think I’m starting to now.’ I didn’t want her to get a goddamn inferiority complex.” (p. 228)
ReplyDeleteThis part stood out to me, because Holden is trying to stop Phoebe from feeling bad for herself, like he feels sorry for himself. Holden is always getting put down, and is always being told that he’s not good enough, or he can’t do something, so even when its something so stupid as making your head feel warm, he doesn’t want Phoebe to feel like that in anyway. He also does this when she says she learned how to belt, and he tells her it was good, but tells us the opposite. When Holden is lying to Phoebe about that stuff, it’s really the first time we see him lying to someone for their benefit. Everyone tells lies every once in awhile, even if its so you don’t hurt someone’s feelings, or to make someone feel better, but Holden seems to lie just for his own enjoyment. This is the first case we see him lying for a different reason, to protect Phoebe. But can Phoebe every really learn to grow from her mistakes, if Holden never tells her when she’s wrong? Did the same thing happen to Holden, which is why he seems to have a hard time moving own and growing up.