For tonight's blog, please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
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ReplyDelete"You should've heard the crowd, though, when he was finished. You would've puked. They went mad. They were exactly the same morons that laugh like hyenas in the movies at stuff that isn't funny. I swear to God, if I were a piano player or an actor or something and all those dopes thought I was terrific, I'd hate it. I wouldn't even want them to clap for me. People always clap for the wrong things. If I were a piano player, I'd play it in the goddam closet. " (pg. 94)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Does Holden envy others because of the attention they receive?
I do believe that Holden envies others because of the attention they receive. He despises them because they have a social group and have other people in their lives that they can rely on. Holden is not in the habit of socializing with people therefore all the things that these other groups do for amusement seem foreign to him and in his eyes make them look idiotic. When the piano player, Ernie, was finished, the whole crowd applauded him. Holden envied Ernie for all the attention and recognition he was receiving. He tells the reader how they may have "puked". Holden attempts to hide his envy towards social groups by making many excuses. For one he says how he would hate the attention if he was a piano player. He "wouldn't want them to clap for" him. This is his way of trying say how attention and clapping is for morons and they have no idea that their clapping for the "wrong thing". However, deep on the inside I feel like he's striving for attention and wants a path to break away from his lonely world. In previous chapters, he would go through his list of contacts just to find someone to call. Furthermore, Holden attempts to make a conversation with anyone he finds just to keep him from being lonely. For instance, the two conversations he had with the cab drivers. Holden envies other social groups because he strives to have some form of socialization and not be lonely anymore. He attempts to cover it up with reasons but honestly, it was apparent to me how much Holden just wants someone to talk to and trust.
I agree with your main point that Holden envies others because of the attention they receive but I don't think that Holden necessarily wants too much attention. Even though Holden likes to be a 'performer' I think the trouble is that he hasn't found the right audience. All he really needs is one person, maybe Jane, who can understand him and in return allow him to understand and learn from them. As a social outcast, Holden hasn't been able to connect with anyone on a deeper level and despite all his criticism and judgement, I think he knows he could learn a lot from someone if they'd let him in.
DeleteI definitely agree that behind his apathetic exterior, Holden just wants people to like him. This could be an explanation for why he just always lying and making up names for himself when he talks to people. He is afraid of being himself and being rejected, so he feels the need to "shoot the bull" and be someone else when he talks to people. He could also want to lie all the time because of the fact that he can't confront his own emotions, leading to him always lying when a personal question is asked.
Delete"It's no fun to be yellow. Maybe I'm not yellow at all yellow. I don't know. I think maybe I'm just partly yellow and partly the type that doesn't give much of a damn if they lose their gloves." -page 117
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What does Holden mean by being "yellow" and why is that a bad thing?
I think that by "yellow" Holden means weak. He doesn't like to fight and can't stand thinking of hurting someone else's face in a fist fight and this makes him think of himself as weak but on the other hand, he doesn't believe he has anything worth fighting for. In the text, when Holden gets into a fight with Stradlater he doesn't try to punch him until the last possible moment and then when Stradlater pins him down, he starts bawling. He tries to shake off the pain by joking around with Ackley after and then leaving Pencey but the truth is that he really got hurt not just externally but internally. Despite what he says, Holden does have things and people he cares about like his red hunting hat, Jane, and Phoebe and even through his unreliable account I can see that he would fight for any one of those causes. Another possible answer to my question is that being "yellow" represents being indecisive. Yellow is a bright color that is also typically gender neutral; it's kind a middle color in the way that it has no specific ties to girls or boys or a certain type of person. In a way, Holden is very similar to this description of the color yellow because he's very contradictory and impulsive, saying something one minute and another the next, making it impossible to label him as honest or a liar just like the color yellow can't really be labeled a "boy" or "girl" color. However, in the end whether "yellow" means indecisive or weak, both these adjectives are negative to Holden, who believes that he should be tougher. Despite his wit and ability to manipulate people by shooting "the bull", he's not big on arguing with people. He says in the book that if he caught the person who stole his gloves, he wouldn't call them a thief he'd just back down. Holden struggles between expressing his anger and trying to be 'tough' while at the same time making sure his arguments don't escalate to a point where he can't hide behind is words. Without his witty words, Holden would be completely exposed as a sad loner; hiding behind his rants allows him to be "yellow" and weak or indecisive but only allow people to know this if he wants them to.
I agree with you! As I read this same quote, I interpreted yellow to mean that he wasn't strong, or like you said, weak. To start off with, Holden doesn't like simple confrontation, such as talking to someone. This makes me immediately infer that he doesn't like physical confrontation such as fighting. I also agree with you that Holden was hurt physically and verbally. Although Holden doesn't show many emotions, through the thinking that he shows throughout the book since this point, I can infer that Holden felt more mentally abused than physically abused.
DeleteYou made some really interesting points but I don't really agree with your interpretation of the color yellow. To me, yellow seems like a happy, bright, sunshine-y color and Holden's attitude toward most everything seems the opposite of happy, bright, and sunshine-y. I think that Holden's dislike of yellow symbolizes the fact that he never really wants to be happy after losing Allie. I know from personal experience that after losing someone it feels so hard to want to do anything, especially be happy. I think that by avoiding happy colors like yellow, Holden is blocking anything happy so that he can sulk is his sadness over Allie.
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ReplyDelete"Then she really started to cry, and the next thing I knew, I was kissing her all over-anywhere-..."(88)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because, Holden clearly likes Jane alot. She's a good listener and is interested in the thing Holden is interested in. Holden feels comfortable around her. I think Holden is a man of impulse that never thinks much. So I think what happened was an action of spontaneity. Of course that little part was just a sort of intimacy between them but It looks like it didnt lead to anything in there relationship since Jane was upset about something. To me Holden confuses lust with sympathy. This could have been one of Holdens chances at the 'real' not just sexual intimacy. Ironically, Holden sees the same kind of approach when he witnesses a Yale looking guy telling a girl about his suicide of a friend/while trying to grope her under the table. He's appalled by the behavior but doesn't seem to connect it to his own.
I totally agree!! You have a point, Holden is able to be himself when he is around Jane and although Holden had the 'real' chance of not just sexual intimacy, he didn't do it cause it wasn't what he wanted to do.
DeleteI think that Holden does not understand that his actions are the same exact as those he hates when other people do them. He fails to see his wrong but never others.
DeleteQuestion: What does Holden truly feel about Jane?
ReplyDelete"I really got to know her intimately" ( page 85)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is Jane so special to Holden?
This quote really stood out for me for a couple reasons. The first reason is because it answers a question that I had about this book. My question was, "What is so special about Jane?" This answers my question because I now know that Holden was able to have a friendship with her. This is significant because it has been challenging throughout the book for Holden to have a relationship with girls, as we discussed in class today. On page 85 of the class set of books, the text says "I knew old Jane like a book." This supports the idea that they had some type or relationship/friendship, and that they could probably relate to each other. I think that Holden continues to think about her because he may be able to remember the good times that he used to have such as playing checkers and talking about sports as he also mentioned on page 85. The other reason this quote stood out to me is because in the tone that Holden is saying this quote, he is saying it like they were really close. This is important to the book because it shows that he was capable of having friends and having a relationship where he wasn't judging the other person. These are some of the reasons that the quote "I really got to know her intimately" on page 85 stood out to me!
I totally agree with what you said about how the quote shows that Holden is capable of a non-judgmental relationship. It's interesting because if Holden in really connecting with someone like he did with Jane, he's not actually thinking about how that person is corny and he's not judging them because he wants to be close with someone. By saying he got to know Jane intimately, Holden's actually saying so much more because he's telling the reader that he really cares about Jane. He hasn't admitted to having an intimate relationship with anyone else and the fact that he did for Jane just proves how much she really means to him.
DeleteI definitely agree with your reasoning. And just to add on, I think that Jane understood the fact that Holden needed to be reserved after the death of Allie and getting kicked out of several schools. The fact that Jane went through similar if not worse things through life makes her less "corny" and "phony" and more real. Jane is so special because she understands and goes out of her way to befriend Holden--- something that is so rare in his life.
Delete"She was the only one, outside my family, that I ever showed Allie's baseball mitt to, with all the poems written on it." (101)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: The only other person that Holden told the mitt was about was Stradlater. What does that say about Holden and Stradlaters relationship?
I think the fact that Holden has told Stradlater about the mitt tells a lot about their relationship and the way Holden thinks of Stradlater. Considering the way he talks about Jane and how close they seemed to be, it seems normal that he would tell her personal things. Since Stradlater is his roommate one could think that they were close and told each other lots of stuff. But after examination, it almost seems as though they have different definitions of the type of friend that they are to each other. Since Holden is telling Stradlater something that is very personal to him, Holden perceives Stradlater as a close friend and someone to confide him. On the other hand, when Holden asks "'What'd ya do?' I said. 'Give her the time in Ed Banky's goddam car?'" and Stradlater answers, "'That's a professional secret, buddy.'" That shows that Stradlater doesn't confide in him the same way Holden does.
I definitely agree with what you said about Holden and Stradlater's relationship. Holden tries to have some form of a relationship with Stradlater but he just doesn't see it. Instead Stradlater takes advantage of Holden and just uses him. The other thing was, when Holden was talking about the baseball mitt. Its like he got really in-depth and very detailed about the mitt when he showed it to Jane. However, I think that he writes about the mitt, but doesn't say its's history behind it (Allie's leukemia). I was still kind of shocked though that he even wrote about the mitt especially on Stradlater's assignment. That just basically showed how much of a friend Holden viewed Stradlater.
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ReplyDelete“The fish--- that’s different. The fish is different. I’m talking about the ducks” (92)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What significance do the fish in this quote hold in uncovering Holden's personality?
Holden falls into the archetype of that rich kid stuck in a family full of hot shots without being one himself. Through his conversation with the taxi driver, the driver keeps mentioning the fish in lake, as if they are the sole inhabitants of the lagoon. Tying it back to Holden’s life and the fact that he is trapped within a successful family, Holden is the duck on the lagoon, while his family and the people around him are the fish. The fish, or his family, belong in the lake and many just pay attention to their appearance when looking at the water; no one can deny the fact that the fish are where they are supposed to be. However, the duck, or Holden, is just living on the surface of another’s habitat; the duck leaves occasionally to come back only when food is needed. Holden similarly leaves the places he once knew, yet, when his loneliness or boredom needs to be satiated, Holden quickly finds his way back through his heart and mind. I think that so far we have been watching Holden fight for the attention a duck never receives. All that people can see are the amazing fish who swim around in the pond. Holden is screaming out and saying that the same rules do not apply to him. A duck is not a fish but does deserve an equal amount of love and compassion.
This reveals that despite how meniscal the object/organism is Holden still would consider it as equal value despite if other people consider it like the same thing like the cab driver Horwitz did. Which also shows how Holden doesn't want to be phony, trying to be defiant, and not following the decisions that other people make.
DeleteI used a quote from the same scene in my post, but I had a totally different take on it. I thought that Holden had to choose which animal he wanted to be, a fish or a duck, but I liked seeing your idea that the fish represented his family and that Holden was the duck. However, I think your analogy with the duck who "leaves [the lake] occasionally to come back only when food is needed" does not make sense when you think about Holden and what he was keeps asking the cab drivers. Holden asks where the ducks go when winter comes and the lake freezes over, so the lake could not represent his home or as you said, "heart and mind." I believe the freezing lake symbolizes his life now, at the hotel, which is getting cold because of his loneliness and depression. In my eyes, he is asking the cab drivers how to fly somewhere warmer, or how to get home.
DeleteYour look on the quote was quite interesting and mind opening. However, you say that the lake cannot stand for his heart and mind when it actually can. Holden is at a state of mind when he, as a whole, is "frozen over" and can't properly feel or think. What does a boy do when his mentality freezes? Where does he go?
DeleteIn chapters nine through eleven we learn more about Holden’s past with Jane and how he had many memories with her. The thought of Stradlater being in the car with Jane was very depressing for Holden and we know that he has lots of feelings for her. Also, he mentions the ducks again to another cab driver (Horwitz) but this time they talked much longer about it and got into more detail. Horwitz thought that the ducks and fishes stayed there all year long and got frozen over while Holden new that wasn’t true and questioned it which made Horwitz very “touchy”. Holden then meets up with an acquaintance named Ernie who plays the piano very well. While he is listening to him one of D.B.’s old friends walk up to Holden with a guy from the navy and asks all about D.B. wanting to get back with him because he is in Hollywood. Holden then leaves and goes back to the hotel when an elevator guy named Maurice asks him if he wants to have a prostitute. Holden being in a very depressed state just says yes and goes with the flow. But, fifteen minutes later when the prostitute arrives at his apartment he doesn’t want to have *** with her and just wants to be conversational and makes up lies that his leg was injured. Finally, the prostitute leaves and asks for ten dollars even though Maurice specifically said five dollars for a throw and she then leaves the apartment with only five dollars leaving Holden even more depressed then he was before.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why was Holden not willing to have *** with her only wanting to be conversational? Is it because he doesn't want to be phony?
"They get frozen right in one position for the whole winter," (92).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Does Holden believe he has the power to change his life? Specifically, his current, negative, path?
This quote is from the scene with the cab driver, when Holden discusses what happens to the ducks and fish in Central Park when the lake freezes over. The cabby explains that the fish can't go anywhere, and they freeze, along with the chilly waters around them. Holden keeps asking questions, seemingly unwilling to believe that the fish have to stay there, trapped, until the frost thaws. I believe Holden must pick which animal to be, the fish, who is frozen the entire winter, or the duck, who can migrate to a warmer climate. If Holden stays on his current path, he will dig himself too far into his little hole of loneliness and depression to be able to get back out again. In that sense, he will freeze, like the helpless fish. But I don't know if Holden can "fly away," simply because he doesn't believe in himself. Relating back to what I said in my previous post, Holden lacks confidence and security with himself. I'm afraid that Holden won't even try to find a better path any time soon because he is too afraid that he will fail. But in time, I believe Holden will acquire that confidence to clean up his life and move on.
I love how you’ve made this part of the book to be like a metaphor for Holden’s life. One part I specifically like is when Holden says, “They can’t just ignore the ice. They can’t just ignore it.” (Pg.92) This part really sticks out to me because him saying the statement twice is like him trying to dig deeper, but also him sort of second guessing himself. He says it twice to confirm that he is right. He’s been under a lot of pressure and he wants to make sure that he made the right decision for leaving “Pencey” and not trying as hard in class. He wants to make sure he’s doing the right thing by leaving everyone and being alone. But he’s not sure if his best decision would’ve just been to “ignore the ice” and do good in school and all. I like how Holden is really questioning this cab driver about his own life in a symbolically way. So yes, I agree that Holden is like the fish in the lagoon, just trying to figure out if there's anyway out of the mess he's in.
DeleteI love your analysis Sophie. I agree with everything you said; Holden seems content to stay where he is, but it's only because he's given up on himself. It's also because others have given up on him; Holden now calls himself dumb, while we all know he isn't. Holden's very intellectual, but he just doesn't try. He refuses to fly away like the ducks in the pond because of his concrete belief that it's impossible for him to do so. Holden doesn't know how to fly away, so he's going to stay where he is, lying his life away. I also agree with how you said "In time, Holden will acquire the confidence to clean up his life to move on" because I feel that "In time" is the key phrase here. Judging by Holden's current position, he doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but I definitely believe that he will find away out of the misery he's experiencing now.
DeleteThis analysis was super helpful and interesting. I knew there was a reason for the discussion of the fish, but i couldn't figure out what. This cleared it up for me perfectly. Your idea that Holden has a choice in what "animal" he will be is very insightful. Bringing that back to Holden's lack of self confident and glaring insecurities wrapped up this post perfectly.
DeleteSophie your analysis was so insightful! You really dug deeper into the fish-duck metaphor. I agree with everything you said and I think that maybe Holden needs someone like Jane to steer him onto the right path. He's unable to find the right path himself because he's very close-minded and set in his judgmental ways.
Deletesophie I love this post and your deep intellectual thoughts. your comparisons between holdens life and the animals in the pond felt spot on and really gets me thinking will he change and confront his conflicts for the better? or slowing keep strolling down his current negative path and ultimately never discover true happiness or rid himself of his loneliness?
Delete“They went mad. They were exactly the same morons that laugh like hyenas in the movies at stuff that isn’t even funny. I swear to God, if I were a piano player or an actor or something and all those dopes thought I was terrific, I’d hate it.” (pg. 94).
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden criticizing all these people? Why did he say he’d hate it if the “dopes” thought he was terrific?
This goes back to what we initially said about Holden being “lost”. Holden doesn’t know what he’s doing, and to be quite honest he doesn’t even belong in this place. Not only is he underage but also he has nothing to do here rather then talk about the flaws of other people. Holden criticizing these people for laughing and clapping after Ernie plays the piano just shows that deep inside he is actually aspired by it. Holden wouldn’t actually hate it if the “dopes” thought he was terrific, he’s just saying that because he’s confused and doesn’t know his place in the world. This goes back to Holden saying his brother is a “prostitute” for going to Hollywood. I believe Holden is just a little bit mad his brother found his place in the world and people are proud of him for it. Holden hates on others like Ernie when they do things that people applaud for because he himself hasn’t found his purpose yet. Holden wants the attention and for people to applaud him for something, he just won’t admit it because that would make him a “phony”.
I agree with you because Holden does seem lost in the world. He doesn't know what he is doing and he doesn't know what he wants. He says all this stuff about people because he is in denial about himself. He never wants to be himslef he always wants to be someone else to keep him from being himself.
DeleteI totally agree with your point that Holden makes rude remarks about people who are doing well simply because he hasn't found his place in the world yet. Overall, a lot of Holden's rude comments are stemmed from jealousy. I noticed that he never approved of any of the couples he saw that night, calling them "funny-looking" and making fun of their conversations. This was most likely because he was alone whereas those guys had dates, and the bottom line is that he was jealous. If Holden finds his place in the world or finds someone meaningful to him, his overall outlook on life may change and he will stop, as you put it, "hating on others."
DeleteQuote: "I don't feel very much like my self tonight. . .I'll pay you and all, but do you mind very much if we don't do it?
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden never go through with sex?
In the book, Holden invites a prostitute over. He gets himself ready, changes his shirt a couple times, combs his hair, and tries to be as sexy as he can. Before she arrives, he's definitely anxious, but still very excited. However, once the prostitute gets to his room, Holden becomes terrified. Supposedly, she makes him "depressed." As true as this may be, Holden's sudden outburst of "depression" is yet another excuse to get him out of something he says he'll do, but never does. Truthfully, Holden is really afraid to lose his virginity. Not only that, but from reading the last few chapters, I think he's still committed to Jane. From the way that he talks about her and acted with her compared to his behavior with other girls, Jane was incredibly special to Holden. He thinks about the value of a lot of things, and sex is one of them. Holden doesn't want to lose his virginity to some prostitute he found from some guy in an elevator; he wants it to be something special. Something special, very much like Jane is to him.
I love your explanation and I completely agree with all of your points. Your argument that Holden's sudden "depression" is simply an excuse to not go through with what he paid for relates to what I wrote about in my previous post. Although in this case it may have been a good thing that Holden didn't go through with it, he needs to stop making excuses and find enough confidence to do what he wants, like finally call Jane.
Delete"ALL OF A SUDDEN, on my way out to the lobby, I got old Jane Gallagher on the brain again. I got her on, and I couldn't get her off." (Pg.85)
ReplyDeleteQuestion:Why is Jane so important to him?
Answer:Even though he likes her he is always talking about girls like they are so complicated and that he never understands them. On the other hand I think he feels this way is because she is special she isn't like any other girl he says "I know her like a book" which makes me think this is one of the only girls he thinks he understand. But to me I think boys/men will never fully understand girls/women. Another reason y I think he might care so much for her is because they have been friends since a young age. She has always been there for him and he just really doesn't want to lose at least not yet. Maybe he just feels like that is her only friend and he is just going though a lot at the moment and he is confused about her. He wants to talk to her but he can't and that's why he can't take her if his mind.
I also agree that Jane is special to Holden. I think that she is special to him because he could share his emotions with her instead of keeping them to himself which causes him to be depressed. I think that he cares for her because they both have had or have something bad in their life,(drunk dad and a dead brother) and they can relate to each other. I also agree that he wants to talk to her but can't because they haven't seen each other in a long time and he is afraid of what she'll think of him.
DeleteI agree that the fact that Jane understands Holden makes her special in his mind. This is very similar to Holden's sister Phoebe. He seems to hold deep respect for women or even anybody that understands him. I think this is because of how different and unusual Holden is. Many people just ignore Holden for his differences. But Jane respects and even likes Holden. That's like you said why Jane is so special to Holden.
DeleteI agree with your idea on how Holden can't talk to Jane because of his confusion. I think that what made him confused about his friendship with Jane was when he found out she went out with Stradlater. Holden himself knows that Jane would never go out with a "phony" like Stradlater, and the fact that she did, makes him think that Jane changed. Now the next question is, is Jane really changing? and what made her change?
Delete"I mean most girls are so dumb and all. After you neck them for a while, you can really watch them losing their brains."
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Where does Holden's disrespect for women come from?
Throughout the book, Holden has shown disrespect and general rudeness towards women. Where this comes from takes some searching. I think there are a few possibilities. One is from Stradlater. He sees how he has his way with girls, and thinks that all girls just give in. He thinks all you need is a "sincere" voice and you're in the clear. Another source of this disrespect is from always going to an all boys school. There was no opinion from a woman's perspective. All he was exposed to was guys talking about girls, possibly in a negative or condescending way. This leads him to believe all women are dumb and oblivious. Another big influence on him is the time period. He most likely inherited some of the disrespect from society. Holden's rude and false thoughts on women stem from a variety of places.
Kyle, I completely agree with your first few lines in response to your question. I too, think its possible Holden may have gotten his disrespect for Women from a guy like Stradlater. But I also thing Holden isn't just disrespectful to women. While it is significantly shown in the book how his feelings towards women are inappropriate at times and often disrespectful, Holden was also disrespectful to men. Back at Pencey, he wasn't always respectful of his peers as he sometimes would pick arguments with them or narrate rude things 'behind their backs'. Also, Holden knows what Stradlater does is wrong, as he shows when he is upset over the possibilities of Jane and Stradlaters' night. I don't think Stradlater is the only reason Holden disrespects women, but it is definitely a contributing factor.
Delete"You never even worried, with Jane, whether your hand was sweaty or not. All you knew was, you were happy. You really were."
ReplyDeleteThis quote helped me understand Holden's relationship with Jane. He really liked her and he was very comfortable with her, with other girls he had to act like like he was older than he was with a deeper voice or act suave. With Jane he didn't have to be someone he isn't, which is what he does with other women. I think that Jane could help him to be less lonely because he could tell his emotions to her because she is the only one that Holden ever talked to about Allie. He is still a little uncertain because he isn't happy about who he is now and doesn't want the people he cares about to leave or disapprove of him.
Question: Could Jane help Holden emotionally if they met again?
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with what you posted before your question, i hope they do meet up later on and see how they have changed, or not have changed. He was the only girl Holden probably fell fully in love with, since he stated he 'half fallen" in love with the others. She is the only girl he is able to be himself with, but a phony with others, which contradicts his sturdy belief in that he does not like phonies. I think she will definitely will change him, since he is always depressed with the other people and was pretty lonely with others because they didn't understand him, but she does.
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ReplyDelete"I still couldn't get her off my brain. I knew her like a book.."
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost, I recalled a few accounts where other did quotes near and similar to this one, however I am bringing out another point here. He claims that he knew her like a book. First, just like he stated in chapter eleven (memories that he shared with her and things he remembers about her that proves he knew her very well) he knew a lot about her. He cares about her, and still continues to and can't get her off his mind. One thing I wanted out is that he specifically chose to say 'a book'. Others might think that is it just a simple simile, but i saw it differently. In a prior chapter, he described how whenever he picks up and reads a good book, he would always like to contact the author as if the author was a friend. This shows how much he values certain pieces of literature, and is able to value it so much compared to the rest of his life, where he states he doesn't really care much about other objects, like when something of his 'gets lost'. This way shows how much he loves books, (specific ones not just any, which he judges critically, just like people), shows how he feels about Jane. He appreciated her because she was interested in what he had to say, what they did, and more. He even showed her his late brother's baseball mitt, filled with poems, which is a huge part of Holden. The fact that he does share it with her, shows how immense he trusted and communicated with her. He even said, just like Susannah had, 'she was the only one' outside his family to be able to see that glove. They had a strong bond, and I hope in future chapters, are able to meet again. I hope Jane is still the girl that keeps her king in the back.
I really like the way you paired Jane with the Holden's book, which he finds so interesting he thinks of the author as a friend. This also relates to how Holden objectifies women in certain cases, how sometimes all he can see is their "pretty little butt" and nothing else. But Jane is like a book to him, with complex plots and characters, symbolism and figurative language. I think this is a very accurate comparison to Jane, not only because of how complex and valued she is, but also because she reads a lot of books and is very intellectual.
DeleteQuestion: With what you have garnered so far with the book, do you think Jane has changed? Any guesses, or predictions?
ReplyDelete"Well you know the ducks that swim around in it? In the springtime and all? Do you happen to know where they go in the wintertime, by any chance?" (91)
ReplyDeleteMy question for this passage was a topic we touched on slightly today in class. Why are the ducks so important in this book, what is the meaning or symbolism behind the ducks. As Ms.Kauffman mentioned in class the lagoon in central park with all the ducks seem to play a significant role in Holden's life, especially when he first returns from Pencey.
In my opinion, the ducks are a sign of New York for Holden, I think Holden gets very attached sometimes to objects other than people. For example, he loves Allie's baseball glove, his red hunting hat, and of course the ducks. I believe Holden is actually feeling homesick the first few nights after he gets of the train. For example throughout chapters 10-13 he asks several people if 'they would care to get a cocktail with him'. A little later on in the book, Holden actually asks the taxi driver, whom he wasn't really getting along with, not to mention a complete stranger, if he would like to grab a drink with him.
All of these signs point to loneliness in Holden's life. The ducks I feel are something Holden can compare himself to, as they are always moving, just as he seemingly is.
I totally agree with what your saying about how Holden is lonley and how the ducks remind him of his home
DeleteI do think that Holden has a strong urge to not be lonley... he thinks of the ducks as a keepsake of his new york life I think that he almost has a concearn for the ducks thats why he always asking where the ducks go... I think he likes the ducks so much that he wants the ducks to survive the winter. Holden is concearned for the Ducks.
I dont agree how you were saying about how the ducks remind him of his home New York. Earlier in the book when someone mentions going home to New York he thinks about the ducks in the pond right away... and gets concearned right away.
I am a little confused by what you mean when you say that he can compare himself to the ducks? You have me a little stuck there.
"She made me so nervous. I kept on lying my head off "I'm still recuperating" I told her."
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is Holden always lying?
In this part, Holden has hired a prostitute, but doesn't want to have sex and pretends he had an operation as an excuse. He does things like this throughout the book- lying needlessly to get out of situations. It seems like Holden does this because he is insecure about his feelings. He is afraid to admit his feelings to anyone, even himself. To avoid confronting his feelings, he is constantly lying about who he is to get around it. He even does this kind of thing with Ackley when he refuses to tell him what the fight was about. He is so afraid of even acknowledging his true feelings that he pretend that to be other people with different situations. He also often uses false names. This is probably because he is so afraid of rejection and so insecure about his persona that he takes on different identities He feels safer in other names and identities his own identity.
"I asked her, on the way, if Mr. Cudahy - that was the booze hound's name - had ever tried to get wise with her. She was pretty young, but she had this terrific figure, and I wouldn't have put it past that Cudahy bastard" (88).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: How does having a drunk parent affect someone?
As soon as I read about Cudahy, the first thing that popped into my head was "Oh my god! It's Malachy McCourt!" The two characters are very similar. Although Malachy never hurt his family by cheating or sexual abuse, they are both drunks and their family and friends resent them. I think this opens up a really great opportunity to compare the personalities of Frank McCourt and Jane Gallagher. Frank learned to respect his elders and how to be kind from his father, and it was also his absence that forced Frank to care for his family and be the man of the house. (We've discussed all of these points in class before.) However, having a drunk father seems to have the reverse effect on Jane. Holden tells us that she "keeps all her kings in the back row", and we inferred that she's a cautious and reserved person because of this. During the scene on 88, she doesn't talk or look up from her game, but she begins to cry, trying to keep her emotions hidden within. Alcoholic parents can have very different effects on a person, as we see from the examples of extroverted Frank and introverted Jane.
I love how you connected Angela's Ashes to The Catcher in the Rye, as both books show the struggles of self finding. I would like l add that the analysis you were able to make about Frank McCourt and Jane Gallagher shows how her childhood has shaped her personality. Holden, being aware of everything she has been through knows what her limits are and that even though, he doesn't have an alcoholic parent he does have a complicated relationship with them and he knows that Jane would understand. This makes assures me that Jane's childhood only adds strength to her relationship with Holden. Not only does he know he can count on her and trust her, like he did with Allie's baseball mit, but that she can count on him. I feel like Holden doesn't view Jane as a "moron" because he knows what's she's been through and the type of girl she is. Thank you for making the connection between those two very similar characters.
Delete"He was the most boring guy I ever listened too, you could tell she wasnt interested." (pg 95)
ReplyDeleteIs the reason Holden is so quick to judge others and not reflect on himself due to his lonlieness?
Holden contradicts himself a lot. We all know this... Holden often points out the flaws in other people to try to cover up his own flaws when in reality he has many too, Holden is so fast to judge others and doesnt even slow down to see that him himself is the one who has the problems... for example through this quote Holden is talking about a couple sitting next to him at the club and is commenting about how boring the guy is while talking to his date. Holden is saying how "he would give this girl the time of her life" he's saying all of this to cover up how he is very lonley inside and trying to use his judgmental thinking as a way to make himself feel better about his sturggle to get girls.
Holden does this more often in the book to, when talking about the blondes he was with at the bar lounge of his hotel he says that they are morons and completly dumb just because they wont dace with him, or show him any kind of affection. Holden despite him knowing it craves attention and hates it when he doesnt... he relies on judging other people and to make them look bad for him to feel good yet he often wishes that he could be like the people that he judges. Holden lives a very unhappy life by trying to judge other people to sustain his happieness, if he focuses on himself more and what he needs to be happy he would be a much happier person.
""How marvelous to see you!" old Lillian Simmons said" (96).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden address people form his past as old...?
In this scene in the book, Holden encounters Lillian Simmons, a girl that used to date his brother D.B. In the moments where he talks to her he refers to her as old Lillian. I think he calls her old Lillian because she was part of her past and even though he can clearly see that she has changed and is married to a Commander he still refers to her as the old Lillian because he's afraid to admit she has changed. Not only is he afraid of the change that happens to him but also to the people around him. Earlier in the book he also addressees Jane as 'old Jane.' Holden is afraid that the old Jane that he used to know has changed. He prefers to save himself the pain by denying it and still referring to her as old Jane. Throughout the book, we have seen how Holden doesn't know how to deal with pain and change and I think his way of being under control is by referring to people who affect him in some way emotionally and have changed from the last time he saw them as 'old..'
I really like the way you connected this to his incapability to deal with pain and change. I do agree with you that he addresses them as 'old' because of this, and it also shows how people in his past can make him who he is, due to the way they influence him. They are a part of his history and by him not accepting that they have changed, he in turn believes that he also hasn't, and is still in the process of doing so.
Delete"Sometimes you get tired of riding in taxicabs, the same way you get tired of riding in elevators. All of a sudden, you have to walk, no matter how far or how high up" (88).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What does walking on his own two feet mean to Holden?
There are many ways one can interpret this quote. From what we can see, Holden is the kind of guy who doesn't want to be influenced by anything at all, so perhaps being able to choose between walking on his own and letting others drive him around gives him a sense of control and power as he feels he can decide for himself. Also, walking enables him to find a destination and set out for it, while choosing many different ways to get to it. Holden might not want to follow the same path as everyone else, and his feet (he) can lead him wherever he wants. Adding on, the part where he says, "All of a sudden, you have to walk, no matter how far or how high up," can be taken another way, as Holden has a lack of dependency on people. I believe that he faces sudden changes in his life where he is forced to change courses, and that in turn, forces him to not believe most people in general because of how quickly they could change. Finally, it shows that no matter what you do, you'll have to support yourself, because while there are things to guide you on your way, ultimately you make the final decision on where your feet take you.
“Then all of a sudden, tears plopped down on the checkerboard. On one of the red squares boy, I can see it. She just rubbed it into the board with her finger. I don’t know why it bothered hell out of me…. I practically sat in her lap, as a matter of fact.” (Pg.88)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden still have these strong feelings for Jane? What about her crying bothers the hell out of him?
Answer: Holden still has these feelings for Jane because the relationship between the two of them is unique because no matter what happens between Holden and other girls, he still has feelings for her. On page 88, Holden is saying that he got so close to Jane that he was nearly sitting in her lap. Also the fact that Holden states earlier that Jane is “fond of all athletic sports”, shows his passion and love for Jane. I believe that Jane’s crying is bothering the hell out of Holden because Holden actually loves her and cares for her.
"One of my troubles is, I never care too much when I lose something," (pg. 89).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What causes Holden to think this way?
Holden just doesn't seem to care about anything he loses. He just left a school in which there had to be at least a couple people that Holden was friendly with. Yet, he didn't say goodbye to anybody. He just lost a group of people in his life, but he seems to not care at all. Same scenario with his gloves. He didn't care at all that his gloves were stolen. I believe that after the loss of Allie, Holden just stopped caring in life. I think that the loss of Allie affected Holden so significantly that he just stopped caring about loss. He didn't want to feel the pain of loss so now he just blocks it out. This goes back to the discussion we had in class today about how Holden deals with rejection and how he insults the person for rejecting him to stop himself from feeling the pain of rejection.
i disagree he does care about what he loses but doesn't want to show it because he's afraid of judgement. he wants to be a "typical teen" he is show everyone he knows he doesn't car including himself. when you lie to others you lie to your self as well.
Delete"Well you know the ducks that swim around in it? In the springtime and all? Do you happen to know where they go in the wintertime, by any chance?"
ReplyDeleteas well, as:
“The fish- that’s different. The fish is different. I’m talking about the ducks”
question: why does holden keep mentioning ducks and now fish, at random moments, and are these moments really random?
i think ducks are not reminding of his home i believe he is looking through a mirror at the ducks. now he mentions fish fish are all in the water they are not half and half where as ducks are conflicted creatures like holden. fish swim and nothing else. ducks can swim and fly. there are moments when these animals are mentioned and these are not random there when holden is feeling lost so he terns to the ducks!
"All of a sudden, on my way out to the lobby, I got old Jane Gallagher on the brain again. I got her on, and I couldn't get her off."(p.85)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: If Jane always gets on Holden's mind, why doesn't he talk to her again? Like they did before when they were younger?
Answer: Jane is someone who Holden obviously admires. He cares for her in a way that no other boy could. The only thing is that he doesn't show her it. They've been close ever since they were younger. On page 88, Holden explains how they used to hang out all the time, go to the movies, hold hands, things that he wishes he could do now. But I think that Holden is afraid that Jane has changed. In previous chapters, Holden discovers that Stradlater goes out with Jane. Never in his life would he think that Jane would go out with a guy like Stradlater, Jane was “keeping the kings in the back row.”
Holden asks Stradlater all these questions about Jane and what they did, where they were, he wanted to know all the details. Clearly, he couldn’t talk to her himself, because he’s worried that old Jane Gallagher isn’t the same anymore. So Holden tries to get with other girls, to see if they would ever make him feel the way Jane did.
"I almost was once in a movie short, but I changed my mind at the last minute. I figured that anybody that hates the movies as much as I do, I'd be a phony if I let them stick me in a movie short." (page 86).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me because Holden is, once again, beating himself up and being very hypocritical. He says that he would be a phony if 'they' stuck him in a movie short, however, he already is a phony in a way because he is a hypocrite and also unconsciously follows society's rules which to him are (as he always says) 'phony' in themselves. Holden's thoughts don't make much sense if you think about it, because he starts ranting on and on about how 'dumb' things are and how he isn't influenced by those things, but at the same time he actually does follow those certain objectives. To me, Holden is lost in his own little world of thoughts and doesn't actually pay much attention to who he is on the outside, but rather who he is on the inside.
"I walked all the way back to the hotel. Forty-one gorgeous blocks. I didn't do it because I felt like walking or anything. It was more because I didn't feel like getting in and out of another taxicab. Sometimes you get tired of riding in taxicabs the same way you get tired riding in elevators. All of the sudden, you have to walk, no matter how far or high up. When I was a kid, I used to walk all the way up to our apartment very frequently. Twelve stories."
ReplyDeleteThis paragraph, to me, can be seen from two perspectives: 1) Holden gets tired of doing the same thing over and over, and 2) Holden gets tired of taking the easy route. The first perspective relates to how he treats Marty in the Lavender room. He gets tired of her and lies to change the situation. However, the second perspective relates to Holden's lifestyle. Sometimes I forget that Holden is wealthy: private schools, wads of cash from rich grandmother, and owned a 90 dollar typewriter (which was expensive for that time). Throughout Holden's life he has been given more than he needs without having to work for it. Maybe he feels that he doesn't deserve these privileges, sort of like how he says “Almost every time someone gives me a present, it ends up making me sad”.
“Would you care to stop on the way and join me for a cocktail? On me. I’m loaded” (pg. 60)
ReplyDeleteIn this scene, Holden has arrived in New York and is taking a cab to the Edmont. On the way, he invites the cab driver for a drink. This line shows Holden’s desperation for companionship and attention. Like all people, he needs someone he can truly relate to, talk to, or even just go out for a drink with. But, in the end this goes back to the fact that he is lonely. So lonely in fact, that he is willing to invite a total stranger, which he met moments ago (cab driver), to get a drink. But, on top of that he will even pay for their drinks just to finally spend time with someone he feels he can have a decent conversation with and most importantly distract him from the pain of feeling like he has nobody.
"she was depressing...she was a pretty spooky kid. Even with that little bitty voice she had, she could sort of scare you a little bit" (pg. 96 +99)
ReplyDeletein this part of the book, Holden has paid Maurice (elevator boy) for a night with sunny, the prostitute. However, Holden ends up not having sex with her at all and despite her cheerful name, he describes her as depressing. But, what scares him the most, is how young sunny looks and how nervous and sad she seems. it surprised him to see a girl about his age doing such a job but mostly not seeming to be truly happy with her lifestyle. I think that sunny unintentionally caused Holden to view or look at his own life and where he is heading. Since he honestly doesn't even have a clue of what to do or even where to go.
"Do you happen to know where they go in the winter time, by any chance?" (91).
ReplyDeleteHolden is a taxi cab while he starts to talk to the driver about the ducks in the lagoon. He tends to mention them when he is either feeling lonely or lost. Since Holden is going to Ernie's, the possibility of him being lonely is highly impractical. Holden mentions earlier in the book how his brother D.B. used to take him some times to Ernie's. Holden is feeling lost; he is so accustomed to having someone to look up to when he is there, but this time nobody. He has began to realize the harsh truth that there will not always be someone to look up to all the time.