Choose a line from the text and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in general?
Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
** Make sure you use your full name
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Continuously throughout the story, Holden makes himself appear strong and independent. He gives off the vibe that he doesn't need anyone to love him or care for him. When Jane comes up in the book, you see a new, caring side of Holden. One that makes you want to know him better, understand him more clearly. Constantly in the story Holden thinks either out loud or in his head about how he wants to contact Jane either over the phone or in the Annex room at Pencey Prep. Every time he thinks of this, he decided not to with the excuse "I'm not in the mood right now" (33). At first, I was confused because Holden was so excited to hear that Jane was here, at his school! Later, on page 63, I understood. Holden thought up exactly what he was going to say when he called her, but then gave his same excuse of "I wasn't in the mood" (63). That's when I realized why he kept putting off this reunion with his old friend. Holden loves Jane, and he doesn't want to be vulnerable because he knows that loving someone makes it easier for them to hurt you. He learned this because of what happened to Allie. In the beginning of chapter 3, Holden talks about what a great liar he is. But now I know, he's only lying to himself.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with this statement. I believe that Holden has an achilles
Deleteheel and it is the subject of Jane and the subject of Allie. On page 38, Holden seems to be asking for Stradlater's help to relay messages to Jane. I personally believe that this is because of his fear of change. Holden sees a girl like Jane going out with a guy like Stradlater and I think this makes him nervous. According to Holden, "but I stuck around the can for a while, thinking about old Jane" (38). When he says "old Jane", this leades me to believe that she reminds him of his childhood which is his main soft spot, the place in his heart where Allie and innocent little Jane are, but with Jane's change to dating someone like Stradlater, he longs for those childhood times.
I agree, but I do not think that Holden is not calling Jane in order to protect himself. I feel like Holden is not calling her to protect HER. Holden knows that Jane went through a rough childhood. Holden obviously has feelings for her and so much so that he got beat up about it. I think that Holden feels that if he got on the phone with her, he would only end up admitting those things to her, making her confused. He doesn't want to put her in that awkward position of having to make the choice, after all she had been through. So, in that way, I think he is almost protecting her more that he is himself.
Delete"'Holden Caufield's my name.' I should have given her a phony name, but I didn't think of it."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because throughout the book, Holden always seems to get himself into situations where he lies and regrets it moments later. In chapter 3, Holden even tells the readers about his terrific lying ability. What I have learned in the last few chapters is that he is not good at lying, he just lies a lot. Whether he lies about having a brain tumor or seeing a celebrity, he never seems to tell the truth. This line specifically stood out to me because it shows that his default is lying. When he doesn't think fast enough to give a fake name, he surprises himself. I also found it interesting that he uses the word "phony" instead of fake or another word. Holden always seems to go off on phony people and things, so why does he use that word?
I want to touch on the part where you talked about how he isn't "The most terrific liar you ever saw in your life." (22) Holden thinks he's all of these great (and not great) things, like being a good liar. When he was talking to Ernest Morrow's mother he says something along the lines of his mother buying everything he says. In reality she could be the one playing him. Even though it is the weekend and the students are allowed out, she could think about why he'd be out so late, and just leaving now. She could just see through all the lies, and be playing him. Seriously, the escalation of a casual conversation to a brain tumor is a little over the top. He could have also just seen it in the wrong way, she could have been a bit confused or something along the lines of that, but Holden couldn't see it cause he was so caught up in his lies.
DeleteP.S. I was going to go with this quote. :(
Matt, I like the idea of Ms. Morrow playing Holden. I didn't even think about that until now, but now that I go back and read that part, it seems like that. Smart thinking,
DeleteI agree with you Matt. We were so caught up with the lies of Holden, we never gave Ms.Morrow a second thought. Ms.Morrow went along with everything Holden says. She even invites him to their beach house. It seems weird for a 45yr old to invite to their beach house, even though he tells he knows her son. Also there were many seats on that train. Why did she choose to sit right next to Holden instead all the other empty seats.
DeleteThis makes me wonder why Holden decided to lie to the girls at the club when he told them his name was Jim Steele on page 82. Why did he feel the need to lie to them, and Ms. Morrow as Matt pointed out. It's hard to tell what's going through Holden's mind when he comes up with crazy lies, like the ones he told to Ms. Morrow. Why didn't he feel like need to lie to Faith Cavendish? What was it about that phone call to her that caused his real identity to slip out? Was he just in such a lost and confused state of mind that his natural instinct to lie had faded away? Or was it just that he for some reason felt comfortable with Faith? And if so, why was he so comfortable with her?
DeleteAdding on to Adelaide's comment, I agree that it was an extraordinary idea to swap Holden and Ms. Morrow. The fact of how the tables could've been so easily turned in that situation blew my mind. Ms. Morrow could've totally played Holden. I love the fact that you got in thinking so deep about what happened on the train. Smart move
DeleteThroughout the story, it is very hard to be able to tell what Holden thinks of himself because he often has very mixed emotions when talking about what he expects of himself. Often you will find Holden worrying about personal appearance and felling self conscious such as when Holden enters the hotel. "I'd put on my red hunting cap when I was in the cab, just for the hell of it, but took it off before I checked in. I didn't want to look like a screwball or something." (68). Here, Holden seems nervous when seeing people for the first time, as if he is scared that their impressions of him will last for his entire life. But, contrary to that, in the beginning of the book, Holden seems to not be so self conscious. When talking to Ackley, Holden seems uncomfortable around him, but at the same time, Holden is spilling out his emotions and he is not afraid to tell Ackley what he thinks of himself and others. They both openly talk about their opinions on how Stradlater is a phony tool and how both of them despise him. Hidden connections i that Holden has with people allow him to open up to speak as he wishes to about others.
ReplyDeleteI feel the same way, when Holden was at Pencey he would put the hat on and be comfortable and content an he thought he looked good too. Even as he was leaving he put the hat on and said he didn't care because no one would've seen him anyway. Then he is too nervous for whether or not he wanted to put it on in the cab or hotel. Once he says the whole hotel had "screwballs all over the place" (68) he seems to think he would've been fine if he put it on because he would BLEND IN therefore, i think that even sometimes he wants to be 'normal' and actually cares how people see him.
DeleteI also agree with what you're saying, and I think the reason it's so difficult to understand who Holden really is goes back to the unreliable author factor in the book. Holden repeatedly says he despises fakes and social norms, but in the end he takes off the hunting hat in fear of being judged by people around him. There are many more occasions of where Holden's thoughts and views contradict what he ends up doing. The way I see it is that there are two sides to Holden in the book, his thoughts and his actions, which can easily lead to the reader's confusion of who Holden is
Delete"You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your life...I swear to God you'd like her. She was smart even when she was a tiny little kid." (75 & 76)
ReplyDeleteHolden rarely speaks highly of people, and he almost never speaks highly of his family (besides Allie, of course). This is the reason the beginning of chapter ten really stood out to me. Holden goes on a ramble about his little sister, Phoebe, and speaks of her as if she is his biggest role model. He goes on and on about the good times he and Allie shared with her, and even compares her looks to Allie's, which is a big deal considering how much of an impact Allie had on Holden's life. Phoebe seems to be one of the very few people Holden admires and actually cares about. While Holden was feeling lost, confused, and alone, the only person he wanted to talk to was Phoebe. It's clear that when Holden is with Phoebe, he is truly happy. He isn't afraid to let readers know how he feels about his little sister, and that comes to show just how important he is to her, because Holden usually doesn't want people to know he has a soft side.
I really love this quote because I feel like it reveals a lot about Holden. He compared Phoebe's red hair to Allie's and describes all the fun times they had together and I feel like that is really important because it's almost as if Phoebe is Holden's last connecting thread to Allie and I think that is why Holden speaks so highly of her and cares about her so much.
DeleteI definitely agree with you. This really says a lot about Holden. He doesn't really open up to people, but when it came to talking about Allie and Phoebe, he really couldn't stop rambling! He really does care for her. She seems to have quite an impact on Holden's life. He seems really happy when he talks about her and it seems like what he says about her just isn't enough. It's like words couldn't describe how amazing she was.
Delete"I damn near sent a telegram to old Stradlater telling him to take the first train to New York. He'd have been the king of the hotel" (81)
ReplyDeleteEven though Holden is gone from Pencey, he still remembers the people that were there (including Stradlater). Holden wants to let go of his past, but he just doesn't know how yet. When he walked away from school, he made sure he woke everybody up to make sure he could do one more "bad" thing. Even thought Holden and Stradlater had that huge fight, and Holden didn't say goodbye, Holden still thinks about Stradlater, and he will for a long time. I think Holden will remember the past (Pencey) until he is happy, he currently may think he's happy, but in reality he isn't. He needs somebody or even something to help him forget the past, and look towards the future.
I totally agree with this. This quote caught my attention too. I thought it was interesting that he was saying something very negative, yet there was sort of a joking, friendly thing about it. I really loved the point that you brought up because I was also wondering about whether or not Holden was going to miss his life at Pencey, because as soon as he gets off the train, he thinks about who he can call up. I think it seemed easy for Holden to leave without saying goodbye, other than the "Sleep tight, ya morons!" (52), because if he says goodbye, he's admitting to caring about the people at Pencey, and that goes against everything Holden stands for.
DeleteI definitely agree with both of you guys. It's kind of what I said in my post. I feel like in a way Holden is going to miss Pencey even though he didn't like many things and complained about many things like the people he was friend with. I agree with you Matt that his going to remember his past until his happy. He needs somebody or something to help him forget, I think that when he left Pencey he already started missing Pencey which is why he wanted to call people to use as a distraction for his emotion and also when he told the taxi man where drive him, he didn't give him one address he gave his several address.
DeleteI agree almost completely with Matt's statements,though I don't think Holden needs anyone except himself to forget about the past. For the most part Holden never really shows himself fully in the main arch of the story. Which ultimately shows how held back a narrator he is. Matt, I think you hit it dead center with the Holden's remembrance of the past and how it will stay with him until he understands himself. Your argument is clearly backed up by Holden's own ranting on the subject of his old schools, roommates, and "girlfriends" (like he's ever really had a true connection with any women other then Jane).
Delete"But when I'm with somebody that's corny, I always act corny too" (68)
ReplyDeleteHolden Caulfield's character is very mysterious too me. There is an ample amount of assumptions that can be made about him but i cant seem to determine exactly who he is and why he is this way. He himself probably cannot explain his decisions. Looking back at the first impression I took in of Stradlater with the way Holden spoke of him, he seemed like a person who knew exactly what he is and isn't. but then him and Holden have an argument that even leads to a fight while he was thinking of how shady Stradlater was being about explaining his date. This same change of Holden's perception of people is shown in this quote. at first the cab driver was a corny wise guy but later he offers to take him out for drinks and refers to him having a "terrific personality" and being "good company". Although this can be sarcasm Holden can be aware of this action and it may be the reason as to why he tries to be one-track minded so people don't assume things about him that he wouldn't want to let then know about or become true.
l completely agree with the statements you've made. It is definitely hard to pinpoint Holden's many layers. This quote stood out to me too because it makes me question a lot of Holden’s morals, specifically his hatred of “phoniness”. Holden is all about not being “phony”, yet we see all of his own phoniness shine through quite frequently. Throughout the book so far I’ve been wondering what exactly Holden defines as “phony”, someone who acts differently to fit in with the rest of society? A person who’s not true to what is evidentially the truth? Here we clearly see Holden saying that he is a follower. If he is with someone who is a certain way, in this case, “corny”, he says he will act corny too. This line just adds to the complexity of his character, because he clearly contradicts his main belief and "hatred" of phoniness, but isn't that what Holden is, a phony?
DeleteI totally agree with what you said, especially the part about when you talked about when Stradlater and Holden got into a fight about how Stradlater was acting "shady" about the date night. I feel that what you said related back to when the principal was talking to all the parents, and was really phoney to the ones that looked corny, but showed good company to the nice rich families that he liked.
DeleteP.S. I read your entry AFTER I published mine (they are the same quote but touch on different topics).
I agree with what you're saying, I feel like he doesn't know who he is or who he wants to be, like you said Besa throughout the book we have had different impression about Holden because he doesn't stick with one person. He talk about how he doesn't like phony people but yet he be acting like a phony person sometimes.
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ReplyDelete"...If you get on the side where all the hotshots are, then it's a game, all right-I'll admit that. But if you get on the other side, where there aren't any hotshots, then what's a game about? Nothing. No game."(11)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because it illuminates how lonesome Holden actually is. He clearly indicates that he is not on the side where all the hotshots are, and from the views he shared on Stradlater, I think he even envies these people. And because he is not part of this "superior" crowd, maybe he lacks a drive to work hard in life. Holden's constant lying and criticizing of the people around him are choices he makes to try to disguise the fact that he is no better than the people he despises. This quote is the only statement by Holden where he actually acknowledges that he is a sort of outcast from the society around him, which is why I think it is so important in the book
I really love this quote, and i understand what you mean i would just like to add that this statement can also be the root as to why Holden adapts so well to the things and people around him. He can be trying to be apart of the game he possibly wants to be a hotshot too. The game is only fun when you know how to play.
Delete"[Phoebe] killed Allie too. I mean, he liked her too." (89, in the big book)
ReplyDeleteI found this line to be interesting. Throughout the beginning of the book, whenever something is funny, or emotional, Holden describes it as "killing" the person. Here though, he somewhat checks himself, which is something that I don't think that he usually does. Holden is very sensitive about Allie and his death, but I also think that he has a very similar connection with Phoebe. Holden seems to care a lot about Phoebe, describing her as "so pretty and smart". I think that Holden respects her in a way that is very protective, yet he is showing her all the things not to do. This is going to sound like a weird connection, but in a way I think Holden is very much like Malachy, in the way that he loves his siblings, and wants them to do their best, but doesn't know how to show them the right things to do and feels that pressure. The way Holden connects the two of his younger siblings together in these two sentences, really shows how much he cares about them, because he will stop and take time to rethink something, which he doesn't seem to normally do.
I had a similar though as to yours. Since Holden is usually so impulsive, he does not think if the consequences of his actions. For example, when he decided to leave in the school in the middle he was not really thinking things through. He was letting his emotions control his actions. However when he talks about people or things he cares about, he becomes more careful with his words, rethinks phases, or becomes a forced causal version of himself.
DeleteI want to touch on what you said about Holden "somewhat checking himself". Do you think that another reason he did that was because Allie was actually killed (by leukemia)? It's probably really hard for Holden to say that something "killed" Allie, even if it's in a jokey way, and even if what he is talking about has nothing to do with Allie's death. It's still most likely really difficult to talk about Allie's death, even inadvertently.
DeleteRuby: Yes, I do think that Holden has a had time saying that. I find it interesting that he can say all that negative stuff about people, including his parents, but her becomes so sensitive about things when he talked about Phoebe and Allie.
Delete"I hate saying things like 'traveling incognito.' But when I'm with somebody that's corny, I always act corny too." (68)
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me think about Holden's situation because throughout the book, Holden keeps repeating that he hates phoneys and corny people, but in this quote, he's acting just like one and just because the cab driver is acting like one. This made me wonder why Holden said all those things about other people, but he's just like them. I think that he wants to prove to himself that he's not fake, like everyone around him. I think he feels that if he convinces himself that he's not like those people, he will be able to believe that he's right, and they're just fake and phoney. Also, in this part of his life, Holden seems conflicted with himself and is trying to find out whats right and whats wrong.
I just want to connect this to Lois' response at the top. Maybe Holden is lying to himself, like she said, about whether HE is actually a fake. Thats why he doesn't like them, because he doesn't like himself. (not in like a totally depressed way though.)
Delete“He was even more depressing then the room was. He was one of those bald guys that comb all their hair over from the side to cover up their baldness. I’d rather be bald then do that… I suppose he wasn’t too intelligent or anything, but it was terrible anyway.” (68-69)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it just adds on to the long list of opinionated statements Holden makes frequently throughout the book. (I suppose Holden finds the fact that the man is trying to hide his bald spot, a degree of phoniness, which is why he goes on to say he’d rather be bald then cover it up himself.) A few pages before this quote, Holden states “But when I'm with somebody that's corny, I always act corny too" which clearly lays out that he’s a bit of a follower himself which would, form his point of view make him a phony as well. Time after time we see Holden contradict himself this way, he’ll state something (highly opinionated,) and then go on to say something that makes him seem just as bad as the rest of the phonies. This makes me think that Holden just isn’t aware of what he is saying sometimes, and how, from an outsider’s perspective he is just as phony as all the phonies he is describing. I also think that deep down, Holden does think he himself is a bit phony, which is why he may feel like he has to point out all the phonies he sees to compensate for his own phoniness.
I agree with part of this statement. Holden is a walking contradiction himself and he does often act phony just as he called another person phony. However, if he just did not talk to or insulted all the people he called phony he would completely isolate himself from everybody else. This is a lot to ask of a sixteen year old kid to isolate himself from everybody around him.
Delete"It was even depressing out in the street...I got feeling so lonesome and rotten, I even felt like waking Ackley up."
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kenneth. Holden loved Allie and he was devastated when he died. Holden became in a "what's the point" situation after Allie's death. Although he still had another brother and sister, they were nothing like Allie. Holden felt lonely and his loneliness is causing him to act the way he is. When he was in New York, he didn't try to call up people to bother them. He just wanted someone to talk to. Although Holden keeps calling himself a "sex maniac" after calling Faith, it was only because Holden was feeling lonely and wanted some company. Holden is not a maniac or dumb, he just wants to share his feelings, but he is afraid and unsure of who to talk to.
I totally agree with you. I feel like theres has been so much for him to say about his life but he is obviously unsure of himself. I also think he feels lonely because his childhood has not been the same as before. Now Holden is just very reserved and likes to keep his opinions to himself.
DeleteI totally agree with you. I also think that this quote can be contrasted with your quote. "I'm so damn absent-minded, I gave the driver my regular address, just out of habit and all--I mean I completely forgot I was going to shack up in a hotel for a couple of days and not go home till vacation started." (67). In this quote, I basically think that Holden is describing that he is emotionally and mentally strained, but not very specifically. This would be an example of "what's the point." He is just lost up in everything especially the fact that Allie died. However, Allie's death, isn't the only reason why Holden is mentally and emotionally strained. Throughout the story, Holden presents a number of actions that might show, how he is mentally and emotionally strained. Holden runs through the snow to Spencer’s house, he writes Stradlater’s English composition about Allie’s baseball glove, attacks Stradlater for joking about Jane, leaving his dorm forever in the middle of the night, and yelling an insult down the hallway on his way out. To conclude, I think there are many other reasons that Holden is upset about, despite the fact about Allie's death.
DeleteI agree with both Abdullah and Emily. Holden needs to open up a bit more. He is constantly undermining who he is and what he is. It is clear that he's smarter than he may seem, but there has never truly been someone to support him. Hopefully later in the story, somebody like Jane can aid him. I think we can all agree that with her help, Holden can be unstoppable. That is the kind of motivation that Holden needs. I believe that eventually, he can find that courage in himself.
Delete"I'm very fond of dancing, sometimes, and that was one of the times. So all of a sudden, I sort of leaned over and said, "Would any of you girls care to dance?" I didn't ask them crudely or anything. Very suave, in fact." (pg. 78-79) This quote stood out to me because in this particular scene where Holden is in the club trying to get the blonde to dance with him, he seems so confident and at ease with himself. Yet as we have seen throughout the previous chapters we have read, he is a very contradicting person and constantly doubts himself. This also brings me to my next point, if he can easily pick up a girl at a club, then why doesn't he go and call Jane and ask if she wants to hang out or something. I feel like Holden doesn't want to reunite Jane because it might bring up feelings that he has never felt before and that gives him a chance to be vulnerable. He's been hurt so much in his life already, dealing with Allie's death and the teenage angst, he doesn't want to be hurt anymore.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point and also asked myself the same questions. Holden constantly goes from saying he's the "sexiest man alive" to then not being confident enough to stand up to Stradlater (at the right time) or to call Jane. However, this is not the only time we see Holden with different personalities. He always seems to be jumping from person to person within himself; another example is when he is nice to Stradlater and lets him wear his jacket and does his composition, but then jumps on him and tries to punch his throat in rage. All of this goes to show how Stradlater is an unreliable narrator; he is always being someone different.
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ReplyDelete"You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole life.She's really smart"... (75)
ReplyDeleteThis quote relates to when Holden talks about his brother Allie because he decsribes them both in a good way.I feel like he really loves his sibilings a lot because he never says anything negative about them and to me it seems like he loved his childhood better when they were around. For example, he says "when she was a very tiny little kid, I and Allie would take her to the park with us, especially on sundays. This shows that they bonded a lot together and Holden seemed happy.Now Holden is all deppress with having his brother dead and apart from his sister and having to go to school with "phonies" and "morons" who he doesnt like. Lastly, the way he talks about her shows that he really misses her.
"You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole life" (p. 75).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because this is another moment where Holden starts to open up some more. He really describes Phoebe in great detail and every single thing he said about her were all good things. For example, Holden was talking about how smart and pretty Phoebe is. He even mentioned a couple of great memories he had with her, Allie, and D.B., together. One memory was when Holden and D.B. took Phoebe to the movies and she knew the whole movie word for word, which showed how bright she was. Holden seemed to be very fond Phoebe and it seemed like he missed her.
" I'm so damn absent-minded, I gave the cab driver my regular address, just out of habit and all-- " (p. 67).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because it gave me the impression that Holden, although he may not realize it, wants to go home. He may want to go home, so he can be reunited with his sister who he seems to genuinely love. Yet, after he is halfway through the park he tells the taxi driver to turn around. He does this because he lacks the confidence to face his parents and is afraid of the confrontation between him and his parents about being kicked out of yet another school.
Yes, I agree with you . I feel the same way that Holden doesn't want to confront his parents about being kicked out of school. I also think that he doesnt want to try to dissapoint his parents especially before the holidays.
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ReplyDelete"I felt so lonesome all of a sudden. I almost wished I was dead"(48). Holden is finally feeling how alone he really is. Ever since Allie died I think Holden has felt lonesome but he has truly been alone as he is in this part of the book. I don't know how Holden was before Allie died but I can imagine that he did not judge people as often as he does now and Allie who he truly loved died and made him realize his mortality and left him alone. Now Holden cannot stand to be alone, right when he gets to New York he thinks about calling all these different people even Stradlater but instead later calls some woman who has never even met before. Allie's death made Holden suddenly face his mortality and it left him completely alone.
ReplyDeleteI deeply like this quote and i also feel like it brought up so much important topics that can be considered as to why he was feeling so lonely. He was even desperate enough to wake up Ackley. He has noone and i feel bad for him and i think he is starting to realise it to. He is lost.
DeleteP.S. I like that you referred to his mortality its very thought provoking
"I was probably the only normal bastard in the whole place--and that isn't saying much." (69)
ReplyDeleteThe one thing that gets to me about Holden is that he is always judging people with the sense of his own normality. When Holden gets to his room, he is just relaxing. He looks out his window, however, and sees things that he doesn't regularly see and he thinks that it's weird. When he looks out the window, he saw a man and a woman squirting water out of their mouths and at each other. He made it very clear that he was grossed out by what these people were doing; yet he continued to observe what they were doing. Why would he continue to watch these people if he was so disgusted by them? Perhaps he was fascinated by what these people were doing. Everyone has the right to do what they want, so why is Holden one to judge these people for their personal choices? He basically does whatever he wants and doesn't seem to care. He shouldn't care what other people do or give himself the satisfaction of his own personal 'normality' when he doesn't care what he does with himself.
I definitely agree. He is so consumed with phonies and people who act like everyone else, but he also dislikes people who are different. If he cares so much about phonies, shouldn't he embrace or appreciate those who are being "weird", as he puts it? Another person he looks down on for doing something out of the ordinary is Ackley. He complains about him in almost every passage that he's in. He's continuously contradicting himself. He hates social norms, but he also finds people who defy social norms annoying.
Delete"They gave me this very crumby room, with nothing to look out of the window at except the other side of the hotel. I didn't care much. I was too depressed to care whether I had a view or not" (pg 68)
ReplyDeleteThis line in the book stand out to me because it make me think that the reason why Holden is depressed was because either he doesn't like the fact that Stadlater went on a date with Jane or that he deep inside doesn't want to leave Pencey. Once Holden found out that Jane was the girl Stadlater was going out with his mood changed; once Stadlater got home from his date Holden was feeling annoyed that "He didn't say one goddam word about Jane" (pg 46). And even before Stadlater got home he was worried. I think thats one reason Holden is depressed, because the whole idea that Jane went on a date with Stadlater bother him. But it could also be that he was depressed about leaving Pencey which is why he doesn't care weather he had a view or not. Holden was kicked out of Pencey a while ago and even though he could have left a long time ago he stood for a couple days and when he left he felt like calling somebody, I feel like he was starting to miss being in Pencey and the fact that once again he had to leave and things were going to change once again, talking to somebody would distract him from feeling the way he was, and when he was in the taxi, he tells the taxi man to take him to different locations and he even asked him, "Would you care for a cocktail" (pg 64) To me he was trying to distract himself. I could connect to Holden with this because sometimes when there things going on I do anything to distract myself from feeling these emotions, if I were to have to leave a place that I lived in, leaving would bring so many emotions and I'm sure deep inside Holden doesn't want to leave.
I completely agree with what you're saying, when you say why he was upset and the reasons for him continuously trying to talk to someone. I think the reasons for him constantly asking people to have drinks with him is because he hates being alone especially when he is upset. While he was at Pencey he would go to Ackley's room, to get his mind off of it, whenever he and Stradlater would have a disagreement. Every time he would want to call someone to talk to, he would make and excuse as to why it wouldn't be good if he did. I think Holden is afraid of rejection especially when he is already feeling vulnerable.
DeleteYou know those ducks in that lagoon right near Central Park South? That little lake? By any chance, do you happen to know where they go, the ducks, when it gets all frozen over? Do you happen to know, by any chance?" page 60
ReplyDeleteThis is either the second or third time that the ducks on the pond have come up. I feel like he's asking this question not only out of sheer curiosity, but also because he's asking about himself. The ducks are in a place that is very temporary. They can't stay there forever, and I think that's how Holden feels. It might be the reason he continues to flunk out of school. The ducks never truly get to settle down in one area, and neither does Holden. The ducks leave every winter and return every spring. Holden flunks out of a school and enrolls in a new one. It's a cycle. He seems to be floundering around, unsure of where his place is, and I think that the question has less to do with the ducks and more to do with where his place is in the world.
I disagree with you because it takes Holden a real long time to realize the fact that he is leaving Pencey. When there is a football game going on, Holden take the time to visit a teacher Mr.Spencer (Page 8) to tell him not to worry that he flunked Holden. This shows Holden's conpsssion to Pencey and how much he cares about this school. Holden is drawn to Pencey and when he finally leaves the night of the fight with Stradlater he says “Sleep tight, Ya morons" (Page 59) making his last memory of Pencey a negative one so he doesn't have to remember all the good times that have occurred at Pencey. The fact that it took Holden a long time to realize the fact that he is leaving Pencey shows how much he cares about Pencey and that his experience there was a very important one.
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DeleteI definitely agree with you. Like the ducks, Holden's place is temporary. But unlike the ducks, Holden doesn't have a place to go back to. I feel like because of this, Holden is lost and unsure of his place.
Delete"The only reason I didn't do it was because I wasn't in the mood. If you're not in the mood, you can't do that stuff right?" (71)
ReplyDeleteWhile reading this quote I get the sense that Holden seems to not think much of lying and the consequences. Throughout the book Holden has been telling lie after lie for what seems like no reason. He calls himself a "terrific liar" and earlier in the book he talks about when he started lying and couldn't stop. If lying comes so easily to him, if it is such a natural thing for him and he seems to like the attention he gets as a result of doing it, why does he, in this quote, talk about it like it is boring and he's not in the mood. In my opinion, I think the main reason he lies is because he enjoys the attention he receives when he does. Before this line, he says that he knew that if he pretended to be Jane's uncle and told Jane's mother that her aunt died, and that he needed to speak with Jane, it would work. My question for this is what does he mean it would have worked? Yes, he wanted to talk to Jane on the phone, but even then the lie would hurt someone he supposedly really cares for.
"Sex is something I really don't understand too hot. You never know where the hell you are. I keep making up these sex rules for myself, and then I break them right away."(Page 70)
ReplyDeleteThis line shows me that Holden is growing up, and is starting to mature. The fact that he creates his own "sex rules" and breaks them shows me that Holden is confident in himself and how he acts. This makes me ask what kind of decisions Holden is going to make with his life. This line also confused me because this line shows that Holden is starting to grow some confidence in himself. Before he barely had confidence in himself, but now he is starting to become an adult and makes the decisions he agrees with. What this line says about Holden is that he lives life the way he wants to live his life. When he tries to follow his "sex rules" he fails because he decides not to go with the way that is correct, but with the way he wants to go with. When Holden creates his own "sex rules" and breaks them, this shows me that people can actually change if they stick with their gut and that they are confident in their decisions.
I agree with you, there is definitely maturity in him. I feel like his just a regular 16 year old teenager where his in between two world of the child word and adult world. I feel like there are times where he just chooses to act more like a child and then there are times where he acts like a grown up and the fact the he actually came up with "sex rule" is one example of the mature side.
Delete"As a matter of fact, I'm the only dumb one in the family." (78)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stands out to me because it helps me understand Holden a bit more. This quote makes me question if Holden is insecure. If so, his insecurity might be the reason he didn't want to see or talk to Jane yet, not just because he "wasn't in the mood." He was probably scared that Jane might reject him if he shows too much affection. Holden is also constantly judging people, calling them morons and stupid girls, when he thinks that he himself is dumb. Therefore, Holden is a bit hypocritical. Holden also talks so much about how he hates phonies, even though at times he acts like one. This makes me feel that maybe he knows that he is a phony and he just doesn't like himself. Holden's insecurities can be an explanation of why he judges people and behaves the way that he does, trying to give the reader the impression that he is carefree.
I agree with a lot of the things you said but one thing I do not agree with is Holden being insecure. Yes Holden is basically a walking contradiction and is constantly judging people but I do not think he's insecure with himself. I just think he has this idea of the way he could've been or should've been and instead of implementing it he takes the easy way out by lying. I think that Holden has the potential to not be dumb or flunk out of his classes but just choses not to because he's afraid. Afraid of what could happen if he actually opened up to people and actually tried to make something of himself that made not only himself and his parents proud but Allie as well. Also I do not think Holden is carefree at all, I feel like when you try so hard to make it seem like people think your carefree thats a form of caring, because to some extent you care about whether or not people perceive you to be the way you want them to.
Delete"I wasn't too crazy about doing it, but I couldn't think of anything else discriptive. Besides, I sort of liked writing about it." (pg. 44)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because It really shows that Holden is still trying to figure out who he really is. He really contradicts himself here, and I think that perfectly expresses his confusion. Does he want to be the guy that isn't too crazy about writing a composition, or does he want to be the guy who sort of likes writing it? Thats what he is trying figure out. This relates to something that we talked about in class where we said that Holden is sometimes almost shielding his true self with a "mask". This quote makes you wonder which one is his true self and which one is the "mask". Does his true self like writing about Allie's baseball mit? Or is his true self not too crazy about it? That's for Holden to determine.
"I'm so damn absent-minded, I gave the driver my regular address, just out of habit and all--I mean I completely forgot I was going to shack up in a hotel for a couple of days and not go home till vacation started." (67)
ReplyDeleteTo me, this quote explains how Holden feels throughout the story. I think that this reveals that, Holden is out of his mind and he is emotionally and mentally strained. I think this because he basically describes himself "trouble-minded," even though he doesn't say that he is undergoing an emotional strain. All he describes is that his increasingly desperate behavior without much explanation. Throughout the story, Holden presents a number of actions that might show, how he is mentally and emotionally strained. Holden runs through the snow to Spencer’s house, he writes Stradlater’s English composition about Allie’s baseball glove, attacks Stradlater for joking about Jane, leaving his dorm forever in the middle of the night, and yelling an insult down the hallway on his way out. To conclude, in this section Holden's loneliness and lying imply that he is not well mentally or emotionally.
The fact that you say Holden is emotionally strained opens my eyes a little bit. However, I think that him being emotionally strained may just be an excuse for why he didn't lie very well (or at all) that time. Maybe instead he doesn't want us to question his credibility about him having poor credibility. At the same time were just giving Holden a break, we're letting him slip, cutting him some slack(you get the point!); though I like him as a character we all know you'd be a fool to trust a liar.
Delete" I was going to say her aunt got killed in a car accident and I had to speak to her immediately...The only reason I didn't do it was because I wasn't in the mood"
ReplyDeleteDoes any one recognize this line? This is the second time that Holden is using the excuse "not in the mood" to explain why he doesn't lie or why he doesn't communicate with Jane. I feel like there is something about Jane that scares Holden; he doesn't want to damage a damaged person, it's that or it's that Jane is the type of person in Holden's life he doesn't want to do anything wrong to. At the same time I question his lying ability. Maybe it's not as compulsive as we think. It's very suspicious how at times he is a very good liar, but when he most needs it or when it most benefits him, he is unable to lie. Ultimately he ruins things for himself!!
"I'd put on my red hunting cap when I was in the cab." (79)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because although its very brief it really showed me alot about Holden. I've noticed that time and time again Holden comes back to this red hunting cap from the time its introduced in the book till the end of chapter 10 its continuously mentioned. Could the red hunting cap be a symbolism of some sort of normality or stability in his life aside from the fact that he is constantly switching schools and doesn't really have friends and is a compulsive liar? Ive noticed that Holden turns to the hat when he is either scared or nervous. After Stradlater beats up Holden the first thing Holden does before even going into the bathroom is find his red hat. After something as traumatic and gruesome as a physical fight why would a hunting hat be at the top of someones concerns? As seen previously the strangest things have the most meaning to Holden, like his brothers mitt. These strong attachments to inanimate objects really contradict with my initial impression of Holden. I used to think Holden was just an unruly judgmental teenager but now i'm really starting to see that Holdens not just one sided and that maybe he is holding on to these objects as a way to hold on to the way things were before Allie died.
"When I got off at penn station I went to the phone booth, I felt like giving somebody a buzz. I left my bags right outside the booth so that I could watch them, but as soon as I was inside I couldn't think of anybody to call up."
ReplyDeleteThis really got to me, and even if he didn't mean it this way it showed me how lost Holden May really be. He leaves Pencey, gets to New York and as soon as he gets there he doesn't even know what to do with himself. I also feel like he may have made the wrong decision all because of a rough night of arguing,fighting, and feeling unwanted. He really has it bad and can't make the right decisions for himself, I'm curious to see what he does in the morning.
"The first thing I did when I got off at Penn Station, I went into this photo booth. I felt like giving somebody a buzz." This quote stood out to me, because it helped me classify Holden as a person. Little moments like this are happening more then often throughout the story.
ReplyDeleteHolden takes joy in the smallest things such as the ones described in the quote. This made me think about Frank McCourt. Frank said that he would never change his childhood, because it let him acknowledge the joyful things in his life. Holden's struggle with Jane and Stradlater causes him anxiety, which I believe helps him realize what life really can offer and how he can enjoy them. I wonder if Holden thinks that there is a meaning to life. Perhaps his way of finding a more deeper meaning to life is by visiting old friends and speaking his mind throughout the book.
John Murphy
ReplyDeleteA quote that really stood out to me was, "I laughed. 'Thank you for the compliment,' I said- suave as hell." Pg. 73
The reason why the stands out for me is because of the wording choice. The word "suave" means charming or elegant, which is not that strange when you are taking in the fact that Holden is a sarcastic. But suave is odd because it means charming in a more exaggerated manner, so that would mean that would mean that he was talking in a very fake and exaggerated tone of voice. But also when says "Good night, morons!" I would think that he would say that in a voice that is obviously sarcastic but he is speaking to Miss Cavendish which is he should not be rude to. It seems that Holden is sarcastic by nature and is always like this. This why everybody (almost everybody) does not like him, and it is in this respect that they do. This is what makes Holden himself and maybe if he changed then he would be a much different person.