For tonight's blog, please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
Format:
"...." (#).
Question:
Answer:
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Question:
Answer:
"I'm sort of glad they've got the automatic bomb invented. If there's ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell top of it. I'll volunteer for it, I swear to God I will." (p.156)
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that Holden keeps repeating that he's going to commit suicide? This is the third time he's doing it and all the while slightly joking. Is this a rising climax to something bigger? Is he actually going to try it or is he just messing with us?
I think that maybe at some point in the book- seemingly just for the heck of it- Holden is going to attempt to commit suicide. All the times he's stated he's depressed in the book and all the times he's said he'd kill himself are leading me to believe that he just might do it, despite the fact that he's a completely unreliable narrator. Using that excuse for him (unreliable narrator) I think, doesn't make any sense. In the end Holden is still a teenager, and like all teenagers he's going through some tough issues. There's just too much wrong in Holden's life to let him pass up the idea of killing himself. It's what makes the most sense. I strongly believe that we should pay close attention to the potential threat Holden has on himself- especially with the peculiar ways he spends his time.
I agree with the fact that Holden is definitely going through a rough patch in his life. However, when you said that he was semi-joking about suicide, that was true in previous passages but I don't believe so in this chapter. I feel that Holden is seriously contemplating suicide and that he doesn't want to deal with his troubles anymore because its become too much for him to handle.
DeleteI kind of agree with Divine on this. Although Holden thinking about committing suicide is a serious matter, I'm still unsure if he actually means what he says about commuting suicide. The first time he brings up this conflict, it was pretty serious. He was fantasizing about killing people and committing suicide, which should not be ignored. Here though, I think he is just saying to show how tough and horrific wars can be.
DeleteI agree with you Divine 100% I've been thinking about his mental state for a while now in the book. He seems to be going through a lot now and the fact that he still talks to Allie to try and vent means something. Would it be possible that he wants to die to be closer to his brother? He's been moving really quick these past chapters planning out his whole life , I forget he's still in his teens. Something about his actions tell me he wants this journey to end
Delete"I swear to God I'm crazy. I admit it." (138)
ReplyDeleteHolden stated this after he saw Sally Hayes coming toward him for their date. He says he's crazy because he said he didn't like her much, but she looked so beautiful that he wanted to marry her. This goes back to one of the class discussions based on Holden's view of women. Holden objectifies women and has very little respect for them. He treats them as if they're in a display window for sale.He thinks that you can't like a girl based on personality, but you can based on how pretty she is. The fact that he says he's crazy brings a question to mind: does he say he's crazy for wanting to marry her because she's a phony in every way? I think Holden says he's crazy because he dislikes Sally and thinks she's phony. He is probably questioning his thoughts on marrying her and why those thoughts would even come to his mind.
I agree. I think that Holden is mad at himself for having feelings for such a "phony". While I don't believe that anyone should every objectify women, I don't think Holden is that bad. I think he went too far to say he's in love with her. That's mean to do when he doesn't love her. But I think there was an actual part of him that thought he could be in love with her, even for a second. Where he went wrong was saying these feelings out loud because immediately after, he admitted to himself that what he said was false.
DeleteI do agree with most of your comment. Just to add on, on page 139, Holden says "Then just to show you how crazy I am, when we were coming out of this big clinch, I told her I loved her and all. It was a lie of course, but the thing is, I meant it when I said it. Im crazy, I swear to god I am." Rather than being a complete lie, I actually think that this is actually Holden's unpredictable narrator voice kicking in to try to mask his true feelings for her. I believe that he sees her as an actual nice girl, he is just afraid to say that because his everyday self is a bad boy kind of "don't care" attitude while his flashback childhood memories and friends attitude is trying to push through. Holden changes depending on who he is around and I believe that when he is around people he's known for a long time like Sally or Jane, his attitude changes because of the prior connections he dad to them.
Delete"I ordered a Coke for her-she didn't drink-and a Scotch and soda for myself, but the sonuvabitch wouldn't bring me one, so I had a Coke, too" (129).
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden so desperate to grow up?
Holden keeps trying to get these drinks, and so far in the book, he hasn't been able to get one because he's too young. Based on what he's told us about his passed few days living the "adult life", he doesn't seem to be doing to well on his own. Spending money, getting beat up, constantly thinking bout how depressed he is. I think that the reason he is so desperate to grow up is that he can only see the bad parts of his childhood. Things like Allie's death or Jane crying over her stepfather. I think that what happens a lot of the time when there's a tragedy is that people associate everything around that time to the bad thing that happened. I think Holden believes that once people will think that he's an adult, his problems will magically disappear, as well as the pain he has felt in the past.
When I was reading the part where you said "I think Holden believes that once people will think that he's an adult, his problems will magically disappear, as well as the pain he has felt in the past." I thought of a quote that i stumbled upon awhile ago, "When we were children, we used to think that when we were grown up we would no longer be vulnerable. But to grow up is to accept vulnerability... To be alive is to be vulnerable." -Madeleine L'Engle I thought of this quote because I thought that it related to when you were talking about Holden thinking that as he grows up in to a young adult all his problems will just vanish in to complete oblivion but as the quote says I feel like to grow up means to accept vulnerability.
DeleteHolden does not look to the negative parts of his life most of the time because he always tells us how educated Allie and his sister Pheobe are meaning that he is actually proud of them and looks to this as motivation. Allie and Pheobe in my point of view are like models for Holden to follow. Throughout the book Holden always tells positive things about them meaning that he looks up to them. Holden is desperate to grow up because he is tired of being treated like a person who doesn't have a future. Holden is trying to grow up quickly not to escape the past, but he is looking forward to his future and what he is going to become.
DeleteI get what you are saying about him being desprate to grow up, but evenn when he tries to grow up, like he has been trying to do the past few days, he has been, like you said, not doing so well. My quetion is, if he isn't doing to great acting like a grown up and having a taste of adult life, why then is he still so desprate to grow up? I mean, he got drunk and did a bunch of stupid things, but he still insists on trying to order alcoholic drinks. That is what I dont get about Holden. He is trying to grow up too hard, which is causing his to have issues, but he still insists on trying. He has a will that makes him look like a fool, anmd he doesnt notice it. That is what makes me so crazy about Holden.
Delete"The funny part is, I felt like marrying her the minute I saw her. I'm crazy. I didn't even like her much, and yet all of a sudden I felt like I was in love with her and wanted to marry her." (pg. 138)
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this quote it instantly stopped me in my tracks and kind of shocked me because Holden barely even knows Sally and doesn't even like her so I don't understand why all of a sudden he felt like he was in love with her or wanted to marry her. I think it was because Holden hasn't seen her in a while and was shocked to see her look this good on a date. I feel like Holden takes appearances a little too seriously and feels like all there is to a girl are her looks. Holden judges women on their looks and I feel like he judges everyone in general because he doesn't really give them a chance to explain themselves or get to know them. Which I feel is why he constantly calls people phonies and talks about them negatively.
I totally agree with all the points you made in your post! It relates to my post too. I definitely think Holden judges women on their looks. He judges people so fast, that he doesn't take the time to actually get to know them well. He is always jumping to conclusions. One reason I think Holden speaks highly of people like Jane, Phoebe, and Allie, is because these are a few of the people he has ACTUALLY taken the time to get to know. I think Holden needs to learn, and understand that people have many layers, and are more then what they come across as upon first meeting.
DeleteWhen I first read that passage, I was disturbed by how much he seems to care about looks. He says himself that he doesn't like her, yet he wants to marry her. I feel like he became that way based on his parents. We haven't gotten to know them very well, but maybe he thinks that a marriage is only based on appearances. I don't like the way he thinks of women, but I'm pretty sure his father is to blame.
Delete"Then just to show you how crazy I am, when we were coming out of this big clinch, I told her I loved her and all. It was a lie of course, but the thing is, I meant it when I said it. Im crazy, I swear to god I am" (pg 139)
ReplyDeleteHow does Holden actually feel about Sally? Is he actually crazy or is he just trying to mask the feeling that he did mean it?
These lines really stood out to me because it reminded me of the strange uncertainty that Holden often has when describing things he sees. Holden in this scene is trying to make it seem like he didn't actually mean that he loved her. I think that this is just Holden's current self speaking to him, just trying to keep his reputation of not loving girls truly. The force causing this uncertainty is his current self who often thinks about the joys of the past, before the transition into adulthood where he would need to take responsibility for his actions and be a leader. Holden is just trying to Hold on to the past as he did when discussing Jane Gallagher. Holden just is taken somewhere else when he is thinking of the nice girls of his childhood with personalities rather than the hookers he meets and talks to in clubs and his hotel room.
"I asked her how come she could date a show-off... She said he had an inferiority complex." (150)
ReplyDeleteI think this goes back to show what many of us said about Holden being jealous. Holden is being jealous here and I think he has the right to be. People are not seeing people for what they are or the world for what it actually is. Holden is mad, upset with that. People always seem to get away with wrong doings, except for Holden. He called Sally " a pain in the ass" when he was angry and Sally didn't forgive him, even though he apologized like a madman. Holden is phony sometimes, but everybody is phony sometimes. The fact that makes Holden angry is the fact that some people are phonies at times that matters most and they get away with it.
I can see why you'd make a statement like that. Do you feel as if Holden thinks it's unfair what people get away with it? Perhaps his jealousy and anger is fueled by always "ending up on the wrong side of the stick." He probably feels a sense of right to demonstrate phony action, because of the way treat him. This type of social response he gives isn't one he'll get positive feedback on. To pull through an obstacle in which you describe Holden is suffering from, he'd have to confront somebody that doesn't even think of the word "phony." Somebody who has neutral opinions.
Delete"I could see them all sitting around in some bar, with their goddam checkered vests, criticizing shows and books and women in those tired, snobby voices". (142)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because Holden is talking about what these guys do and how theire phonys and how those guys kill him. However, I ask myself why is he criticizing them about what they do when basically Holden does the same. For example, when he was at Ernies he was criticizing him and the audience and he also judged the girls that were at the club with him. I mean I think Holden is a phony himself but I guess he doesnt see it or considers himself one.
I think this relates to what we were talking about in class today. I think that Holden is really insecure and this is how he choses to Handle it. He puts others down and criticizes what they do when the only reason he hates it so much is because he does the same. Holden is unhappy with who he's growing up to be, and I personally think that this is why he criticezes the boy from Andover, and all other successful and wealthy people for that matter.
Delete"'No kidding. I'm sorry," I kept telling her.
ReplyDelete'You're sorry. You're sorry. That's very funny.' she said. She was still sort of crying, and all of a sudden I did feel sort of sorry I said it."' (148).
In Holden's eyes, what is the difference between being sorry and feeling sorry?
I think that for Holden, saying sorry is just a way of getting someone to shut up and feel better. But when she continues to cry and makes a remark about how he isn't really sorry, and that's when he says he actually feels sorry. Before he admits to feeling sorry, he even kept repeating to her that he was sorry. Does he think that his apologies will change the situation?
To add on to your though process, I don't think Holden really understands how people usually feel in general. The emotions Holden usually feels can be described using the words depressed and lonely. He also does not really care about other peoples emotions enough to truly be sorry for something he does.
DeleteWhen I read that part I said to myself I know his just saying that to her so that she could just shut up.even after he said he felt bad, at the end he still kinda showed that he didn't care. I feel like when it come to apologizing his just like "yeah yeah whatever get over it". He doesn't really care about how other people feel. After the whole situation he just left, like most girls lie and say "yeah just leave, I don't care" but deep inside they're like don't leave. That's just my opinion.
DeleteI think that Holden really doesn't feel sorry for her. This is because he feels so sorry for his own life, that he doesn't have any time for feeling sorry for anyone's life. He's basically just sorry for his life because he is emotionally strained. Throughout the story, Holden presents a number of actions that might show, how he is emotionally strained. Holden runs through the snow to Spencer’s house, he writes Stradlater’s English composition about Allie’s baseball glove, attacks Stradlater for joking about Jane, leaving his dorm forever in the middle of the night, and yelling an insult down the hallway on his way out. These are just previous reasons that are described in the book that are enough to describe how Holden is just emotionally strained. He first has to get his life together, to feel sorry for someone's life.
DeleteI understand what you mean Lynsey, and I agree with you. This reminded me of how we were talking about the scene with Mrs.Morrow in class and why we were so confused on why Holden was sorry for giving her the wrong name and not sorry for lying completely. I feel when Holden is not genuinely sorry something he just says it to appear humane and to have morals. But when he really is sorry you can feel the guilt he has for something and the grievance it is causing him.
Delete“…there were about a million girls sitting and standing around waiting for their dates to show up. Girls with their legs crossed, girls with their legs not crossed, girls with terrific legs, girls with lousy legs, girls that looked like swell girls, girls that looked like they’d be bitches if you knew them. It was really nice sightseeing if you know what I mean.” (137)
ReplyDeleteTime and time again we see Holden blatantly put woman into groups based on their appearances. Why does he do this? Why does he objectify them in this way so often?
This quote stood out to me because it clearly showcases Holden classifying woman and girls unfairly. He comes right out and judges these girls based solely on appearance. Holden sounds so sure of him self when he observes that there are girls that look liked “swell” girls, and also girls that looked like they’d be “bitches” if you knew them. I feel like this is a control thing for Holden, and that being able to judge these people so openly- (yet in his own head,) makes him feel better about himself. Holden may even feel powerful, when he talks about these girls as objects. The last line of this quote really aggravated me. Holden says that watching the girls going about their business was really nice sightseeing. What kind of a way is this to talk about females? Holden clearly sees them as objects if all he took time to notice was whether or not they had nice legs, or seemed like they’d have a “bitchy” personality. This quote also brings to the surface his obsession with identifying “phonies”. Holden himself doesn’t want to see people as they really are, but he only judges them based on appearance, (in this case, in a sexist way.) He doesn’t seem to get to know people enough to make real reliable statements and judgments.
I again agree with your post Anjali, and I think this is the source to his all around hatred to the majority of the people around him. He doesn't think twice when judging someone or even give them a chance to find out their real personality. As an example, he quickly assumes because someone has bad-quality suitcases, he can't be friends with that person. If Holden wants to be less lonely be accepted by people, he's going to have to accept people himself in the first place.
DeleteI never noticed that Holden never gets to know people enough to make real reliable statements and judgments until you pointed it out. However I still believe that there are a couple people that he (hopefully) gives us reliable judgments on. Examples of these people include Jane, Pheobe and Allie. Though it is wrong for him to judge people he doesn't even know we still have to compare this to the real world. If you were to see someone on the streets and made judgments about them, maybe about the way they look, what they're doing or anything small- anyways we all do it once in a while- do you think that your judgments would be correct? Holden is basically doing what we do but just at a higher more morally wrong level, just to make it clear that he's still wrong. We also need to remember that Holden being the narrator means that we're intruding into his innermost thoughts and obviously they're not pleasant according to your quote.
Delete"I hate living in New York and all. Taxicabs, and Madison Avenue buses, with the drivers and all always yelling at you to get out at the rear door, and being introduced to phony guys who call the Lunts angels, and going up and down in elevators when you just want to go outside…" (145)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden chose to open up to Sally like this?
Holden is clearly mentally unstable. This is clear to all readers. This is the first time in the book where Holden fully and explicitly expresses his pure hatred for the world around him, and this brings me to my initial question: Why did he chose now? I have a few possible answers.
One possibility is that he really felt that he could trust Sally. But if that is really the case, why? Why did he feel so comfortable around her after not having seen her for such a long time? What was it about Sally that made him so comfortable?
Another possibility is that that the boy from Andover pushed him over the edge. Maybe Holden just couldn't fight the urge to ramble after having seen him. When analyzing the situation, I realized that the boy from Andover is everything Holden hates: successful, wealthy, and, of course, phony. Maybe Holden's interactions with him drove him absolutely crazy.
I agree with most of the things you said, except for the part about Holden being mentally unstable. To add on to what you said about him opening up to Sally, I think it mainly has to do with the fact that he's lonely and he's been keeping all these feelings in. Then sally comes along and she's a nice, pretty girl, and I think Holden needs to say his feelings out loud to someone who's there and spending time with him, so that they aren't trapped inside, because that is what can make him more upset. Also, adding on to him being unstable, I don't think that is the case. Similar to what I said before, Holden has had a rough life, and the fact that he is so quick to judge, and is so negative all the time, can't be blamed on him, it has to be blamed on the tragedy he faced after losing Allie, and the isolation he feels from almost everyone he has ever met
Delete"So finally I did. I went inside and got my shoes and stuff, and left without her. I shouldn't've, but I was pretty goddam fed up by that time. " -pg 149
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden get himself in situations that could have been avoided?
This line stood out to me because it really showed how Holden is still a child and how because of his impulses he gets himself into problems. Although Holden has admitted to himself that he thinks sally is " a real pain in the ass" Holden still wants to get out of Manhattan with Sally, who he has seen for the first time tonight in a long time. After Sally tell him that they can't go because they are only children Holden gets angry and depressed and insults her. This situation could have been avoided by Holden simply thinking about what she would say, before asking her to go with him. Holden also does this when he is dealing with Sunny and Maurice in the hotel. Holden had the five dollar extra that they wanted and knew he would not fight Maurice in a fist fight. Although he could have ended the situation by giving them five dollars, he did not and let the problem expand. I think Holden does this because the more time he spends with some one, whether he likes their company or not, is less time he spends by himself feeling lonely and depressed.
"Here's my idea. How would you like to get the hell out of here?...No kidding. We'll stay in these cabin camps and stuff like that till the dough runs out..."(146)
ReplyDeleteHere we see an emotional breakdown occurring, this moment stood out to me because it is one of the few moments where Holden actually reveals his hatred of society to another person. Most of the time, these thoughts sit confined in his mind because he thinks no one would be able to relate or understand. As he realizes he is alone with his thoughts, Holden has become more and more lonely and depressed. This outburst to Sally releasing all his agitations and pleads to come with him away to a different place was just a result of the severe loneliness Holden has developed when he moved into the hotel in New York. He wants someone to share his views and thoughts with, and the emotional breakdown was just a plead for someone to understand him.
"I thought he might want to have dinner with me somewhere and have a slightly intellectual conversation" (page151)
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden always inviting people out to eat or out to the movies? It always has to be him inviting somebody somewhere.
When you invite somebody out that means you're paying for them, I'm assuming that every time Holden invites somebody out, he's paying, meaning his very wealthy. I feel like Holden is lonely, his a lonely teenager boy. Some people think that people who have money are always happy people, I feel like Holden is a good example that not all wealthy people are happy. To me the fact that he always has to be the one to call people up and invite them somewhere shows how bored and lonely he is, it also shows how many close friends he has; throughout the book we haven't seen somebody call Holden up and ask him to go out some where. Holden might have people who his meet through out his life but none of them stick around. This make me feel like Holden is somebody that doesn't interest many people, in the sense that they don't call him and invite him to places. Most 16 year old usually like to go out with their friend, Holden hasn't had anybody inviting him out.
I agree with what you are saying, and we talked about this a bit in class. I think that since Holden keeps spending all this money, constantly buying people things, paying for a place to stay and to go places, he thinks of himself as worth more because of his money. He thinks everyone will want to hang out with him if he buys them drinks or dinner but doesn't realize the real worth of money, especially as a teenager alone in New York.
Delete“She kept walking ahead of me, so that I’d see how cute her little ass looked” (143)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden assume that things are done for his attention, when he has never had an successful relationship with any one?
Previously in the novel, Holden explains why Dick kept taking Holden's suitcases out and putting them back on the rack so that people would think they were his. This is probably the reason why Holden started to feel that people actually like him and would want his attention if they had something nice to showoff. However, I still think that Holden is wrong. No one really wants his attention. In fact, Holden never had a strong relationship with a woman. On the other hand, I also can conclude that Holden is a pervert. He might think that she's trying to impress Holden with her "ass," since he probably had his mind on her "ass." Basically, he views all the females in the novel, aside from Pheobe, as boring and phony such as (Sally Hayes) or others he claims to be beautiful and pretty, such as (Jane Gallegher). I think that Holden's thinking about people wanting his attention, and him being a pervert leads him to his statement.
"The terrible part, though, is that I meant it when I asked her " pg.149
ReplyDeleteThroughout the whole book we've heard wonderful things about Jane and how Holden's been wanting to call her up and catch up with her . However in this part of the book things shift on to Holden's ex lover Sally. We haven't heard much good things about Sally which is why I question , Holdens true feelings toward women. Does he really have feelings for Jane and Sally? Or is he simply taking advantage of the little company He can get ? I feel that because Holden had to make the sudden change from boarding school back to New York he's not accustomed to being so alone. He's been beaten up, ignored , rejected and lonely this whole time in New York so when he finally sees Sally I doubt he loves her , but loves her company instead. Holdens been in desperate need of somebody and if he doesn't find an outlet soon , he might be tempted to just turn even more into the "phony" people he criticizes.
I like this part of the book a lot. I think that Holden truly does like Jane and values her company which is why he is so afraid of calling her. However, Holden does not really like Sally. Sally is the first person in the whole who has not rejected him and has chosen to be with him. Towards girls Holden thinks he can just judge them and does not think many girls are as good as him, towards women I think Holden likes women because he feels he can lie to them and that women are clueless.
DeleteI agree with you. The same thing got me thinking as well. I was quite confused. He seemed to have feelings for both Jane and Sally, however he loved one of them more. I agree with the fact that he would turn into all the things he dislikes and criticizes others about if he doesn't find someone. This shows that Holden really is lonely.
Delete" They were different, though, I'll say that. They didn't act like people and they didn't act like actors. It's hard to explain. They acted more like they knew they were celebrities and all. I mean they were good, but they were too good." ( pg. 140)
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden so against actors, even though he admits that they are talented, and what does he mean "they were too good" ?
I think Holden is against actors because he is against the idea that someone can change their entire self to be someone else, this leading to the phony accusations. It seems like Holden doesn't like when other people act like someone their not to make their "ranking" in society higher, although he seems to do it a lot . Also, when Holden says the actors were "too good," I think he thinks that the actors have gotten so used to playing the role of someone else, that they lost themselves while becoming great actors. As well as that, I think Holden could also mean that the actors weren't completely acting anymore, and all the emotions they were portraying for somebody else are also the emotions they feel. The fact that Holden thought the actors were acting too well, shows another side to Holden. Holden could feel sympathy for the actors because he could see that they were hurting about something, and as we already know about Holden, he is nicer and not judgmental with people he feels sympathy for.
I completely agree with what you said, but one thing can be added. Holden is taken aback by the topic of changing yourself to be somebody else, but he also might be jealous of the actors and be upset that they've found a life for themselves, while Holden is still finding his place in the world.
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ReplyDelete"It'd be entirely different. We'd have to phone go downstairs in elevators with suitcases and stuff. We'd have to phone up everybody and tell 'em good-by and send 'em postcards from hotels and all"(133).
ReplyDeleteIs Holden afraid of growing up? Holden often throughout the book acts very grown up, he has gray hair and he is always ordering drinks. He is often bragging about this to other people. When he is talking to Mrs. Morrow he nonchalantly says that he can just order drinks because he looks much older. Most kids would not even considering leaving their boarding school before they could go home and staying alone for a number of days. Holden often views himself as older but some of the things he does like the horsing around show how he is still a kid. This again shows Holden's teenage struggle between being a kid and being an adult.
"If you want to know the truth, I don't even know why I started all that stuff with her. I mean about going away somewhere, to Massachusetts and Vermont and all. I probably wouldn't've taken her even if she'd wanted to go with me." (174)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Did Holden want to just take a shot in the dark with his statement? Was he just taken aback by her looks he wasn't thinking about what he was willing to do?
I feel Holden at the time meant what he was saying, but in reality he would have been to scared to go through with it. Holden says he lives a life that is amazing and full of a ton of things, but in reality he does none of this and he is the real phony. Holden didn't even want to go out with that girl (Sally) but he didn't want to do nothing. He goes from doing nothing, going out with a girl he doesn't want to be with, then beg her to run away with him. Holden has to understand he's 16. I know it was different back in the time when this book is portrayed in, but Holden has to sit down and ask himself, what the hell is he doing with his life right now. He has no foreseeable future, and if he keeps dropping out of schools, he's bound to fail in life, and keep dreaming instead of living.
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ReplyDelete"Girls with their legs crossed, girls with their legs not crossed, girls with terrific legs, girls with lousy legs, girls that looked like swell girls, girls that looked like they'd be bitches if you knew them." (137)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden not judge older women like he judges girls?
Holden judges these girls like its no ones business, but why does he not judge older women like he judges these teenage girls? We have seen many examples of this throughout the book such as Mrs. Morrow and the women in the lavender room. He treats them with some respect, but when it comes to girls that are young he treats them with absolutely no respect and blasts them with complaints in his mind. In this particular moment he judges the girls in the lobby of the show without even meeting them. Holden just looks at their legs and automatically tells us who they are, this is not something Holden would do to an older woman. He calls these people "Girls" and not women which shows that he still thinks they are young and not mature enough to be an actual adult. Holden most likely thinks that older women are not going to judge him as much as younger women so he gives younger women less respect. Holden probably thinks that younger girls are not good enough for him and that they are worthless since he judges them like they mean nothing to him.
I think that Holden would like to believe that he's superior to all teenagers. I absolutely agree that he does not respect young women but could this be because of the lack of female role models in his life? I feel like with Holden when he judges females you can either mean as much to him as Jane or as little to him as the prostitute, but I don't think there's an in between. Whats Holdens relationship with his mom like? I think this could play into the way he treats girls
DeleteI agree with you and I never actually realized how he treated girls compared to women. He definitely has more respect towards women than girls. I also feel like Rosalyn's point about how he would like to believe that he is superior to all teenagers makes sense. he always talks about teenagers like he is somehow wiser or better than them.
Delete"I could see them all sitting around in some bar, with their goddam checkered vests, criticizing shows and books and women in those tired, snobby voices." (page 142)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden feel the need to criticize people who are so similar to himself? What is he trying to prove?
Holden does the exact same thing as these men do. The only different is that he criticizes these things by himself. He judges women constantly. He is always complaining about plays and shows and movies that he thinks are rubbish. He is continuously calling books phony. What is it that he sees in those people that he doesn't see in himself? Maybe he is trying to convince himself that he's not like everyone else. He seems like the kind of person who tries so hard to be different that he becomes just like everyone else, but he is in denial of that. Or maybe it's his way of saying that he is a phony himself, and that he hates himself.
I agree that Holden is possibly trying to convince himself that he is not like the people he is criticizing. He most likely knows that deep down he is like those people, and that is probably why he hates himself. By convincing himself that he isn't like them, he feels better about himself, which is probably why he does it.
Delete"Then, just to show you how crazy I am, when we were coming out of this big clinch, I told her I loved her and all. It was a lie , of course, but the thing is, I meant it when I said it," (p.139).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because Holden is saying that he loves Sally. He told her that he loves her! But it draws a few questions to my mind. Why is Holden saying that he loves Sally, when he actually doesn't? Or does he? Did he really not mean it? I think that Holden was saying that he loved Sally just for the heck of it. He probably just in the moment and decided to tell a lie...but wasn't actually a lie. Maybe Holden just said that because of her looks. She probably looked so pretty that he couldn't help what rolled off of his tongue. But perhaps Holden actually cared for Sally or still has some feelings for her since he said, "'Why don't you go on over and give him a big soul kiss, if you know him?..." (p.141). Holden said this to Sally when she kept saying how she knew the guy at the other end of the lobby. In this moment, Holden seemed a bit jealous. Perhaps he was annoyed. But I knew for sure that Holden certainly didn't like the guy, George. Holden probably acted this way because Sally wasn't really paying attention to Holden when she noticed George.
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ReplyDelete"I could see them all sitting around in some bar, with their goddam checkered vets, criticizing shows and books and women in those tired, snobby voices. They kill me those guys. " (166)
ReplyDeleteWhy is a problem when he assumes other people could potentially be judging other people when he does it all the time?
In class we are constantly discussing if the reason Holden is constantly judging people is because he's not happy with himself. I think that if everyone around Holden saw Holden the way he really saw himself then they'd just see a young teenager crying out for help. I think Holden passes judgments to make himself feel better but when people could even be slightly judging him it worries him because he really does care what people think. Since Holden is our narrator we have to see things through his eyes, but most his depictions of people are pretty pessimistic which makes me question his judgement of character. Are these people as phony as he says? Or is Holden just really harsh on everyone around him? As I progress into the book i'm constantly struggling to understand Holdens external fight that he seems to put onto others
"I told her I loved her and all. It was a lie, of course, but the thing is, I meant it when I said it." (pg. 139)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out because it really confused me. Why would Holden say that he meant it, if it was a lie? Maybe it was because in the moment, He actually did mean it. He could have just been lost in the moment and didn't realize what he was saying. Or maybe he did realize what he was saying, but he was just trying to lead Sally on, to make her like him, to possibly help raise his self esteem. I don't know, this quote really got me thinking because I don't really understand it, or what Holden is trying to say.
"He never stopped talking, and what was awful was, he never said anything you wanted to hear in the first place. But he could do one thing. The sonuvabitch could whistle better than anybody I ever heard"(137). This line stood out to me because it can apply to multiple scenarios. With this in particular, Holden sees this character's skill of whistling as the only good quality he obtains. Holden seems to be the same way with himself. He was failing every class but English. Holden does not have an endless stream of redeeming qualities and I think he is aware of this so he is not very proud. I know this because i wouldn't be. Once Holden finds a person that can realize that he doesn't need to have great obvious traits but just be himself to be accepted. It could be Jane, Sally, even his mother. However Holden has not conveyed any clues as to if he has gotten closer to his destination on his road to self discovery. When, and if, he does find out who he is will he like the outcome he comes too? Will he be disappointed? I think if Holden becomes friends with someone who shows him self-worth and self love then he will understand how to accept himself and others around him.
ReplyDelete“I’d be working in some office, making a lot of dough, and riding to work in cabs and Madison Avenue buses, and reading newspapers, and playing bridge all the time, and going to the movies. It wouldn’t be the same at all. You don’t see what I mean all”
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this line on page 148 in chapter 17, I realized that Holden was aware of the image he can put out. I think through his “excessive fantasizing,” we can see what he really wants to become. The quote above shows what Holden hopes (or hoped) to be doing after school. This would seem like a reasonable dream to anyone, however Holden talks about it like it can never happen. From his point of view, we can see why. He’s gone from school to school, failing classes, and suffering from all the things that come with society. It’s hard to believe that Holden thinks highly of anything! Holden’s confidence plays a major role in this book. If he can find a way to take the confidence of the Holden he sees in his “dream world,” and use that power in real life, than he can fulfill his fantasies he visions himself in. Yet, there is a missing key. We (the readers,) see so many easy ways for Holden to be happier, but he can’t seem to find a single way. What’s keeping him from that? Are the social norms really that bad? Is money the only way he can make himself happy? I hope to find out in the remaining chapters of the story. I really do hope that Holden can get feel better about himself soon.
"I had quite a bit of time to kill till ten o'clock, so what I did, I went to the movies at Radio City."(177)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: If Holden thinks people that go to the movies for fun are phonies, then why does he go?
This line stands out to me because earlier, Holden makes a big deal about people entering to see a movie. He says that he can barely stand looking at them and talks about how big of phonies they are. But then, he goes to the movies because he feels like and has time to. He could have done anything else, but he decided to go to the movies. By doing so, he is contradicting himself. Does Holden realize this? Does he call people phonies, knowing that at most times he acts like one? Honestly, Holden and his actions confuse me. He seems to be so caught up in other people's business, but doesn't realize what he is doing.