Choose a line from the text and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in general?Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
"Certain things they should stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them in one of those glass cases and just leave them alone."-page 158
ReplyDeleteThis line stands out to me because it reveals Holden's inner desire to be a child again. In the context of this line, Holden is thinking about how every time Phoebe or someone like himself visits a museum, the exhibits stay the same but when you look at them you see them from a different perspective because you're changing. I think that by this line, Holden is missing his childhood because being a child is similar to being in a bubble. Every experience is new and exciting and children have a certain innocence and naiveness that allows them to see the world in a different and more positive way than adults. Children don't have to worry about their careers or the horrible things like crimes happening in the world and I think that Holden misses this simplicity of being a child. Now, Holden is lonely and has been kicked out of school and he doesn't know what direction his life is going in. Looking at the museum displays triggers his inner desire to freeze time around a moment; to stay happy and be a child again and never have to grow up. In the real world, many people share this feeling. Childhood is an amazing part of life and even though people may not value it at first, as they grow older they realize the wonder of being a child that they can never get back. Holden misses his childhood because he misses being able to make mistakes and not having to take responsibility for them, and he misses the feeling of unity of with his family that kept him from ever being lonely as a child. Through this line, Holden is expressing his wish to preserve his childhood memories and be able to always hold on to them as if they were in a display case.
I completely agree with your ideas of relating the museum to Holden's desire to be young again. It also relates to what we discussed in class, about how it seems that Holden prefers children and young people to older ones. However, I was wondering why Holden never ended up going into the museum, saying he "wouldn't have gone inside for a million bucks," when moments before he was raving about how awesome and timeless it is. What do you think? As always, your post is detailed and totally relevant. Great job!
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DeleteIt's really cool that you brought that up! I think that Holden won't go inside the museum because he knows the truth is he can't preserve his childhood like the displays in the museum. For him, the museum reminds him of how much time he's lost going from school to school and he can never go back to being a child, or being innocent, or having a clean slate with his family and the other people in his life. Holden's gotten to a point where everything he does seems wrong and he won't go inside the museum because it's full of good childhood memories and he doesn't want to ruin them by coming back to the same, timeless displays with the only change having been him, and maybe he hasn't changed in a positive way from the last time he was at the museum as a child.
DeleteI also thing that this passage triggers thoughts about Holden's childhood. As we discussed in class Holden always seems to like younger characters more than older characters, he always seems to admire Pheobe, his younger sister even though she's a girl and he seems to have trouble respecting women. I think Holden is a very complex character and he longs for his own childhood back, when it was much simpler for him. This was before his younger brother died, he got kicked out of several schools, and he forced himself to fend for himself in NYC. The museum may make him feel even worse about himself or replace his old great memories he had at the museum as a child
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DeleteI completely agree with you Ilana, especially the part where you said that he really wants to be a child again. I didn't think of it that way before, but now I am realizing that that might be the way it was meant by Holden. Something that I would like to add on is that the only reason that he truly misses being a child is because he completely dislikes his life now. Right now, his life consists of no friends and either being in a boarding school or being kicked out of a boarding school. I think that maybe if Holden's life was a little happier, he wouldn't long to be in his childhood again as much as he does during this point in his life.
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ReplyDelete"What I really felt like doing, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window. I probably would've done it, too, if I'd been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed. I didn't want a bunch of stupid rubbernecks looking at me when I was all gory," (117).
ReplyDeleteThis line shocked me because Holden hadn't hinted anytime before that he was feeling so depressed that he would KILL himself. This also confused me, because I'm sure that there is an link between the "stupid rubbernecks" looking at his gory body and real people in his life, but I'm not sure what the analogy is. Perhaps him being "all gory" is referring to his current situation, which is not nearly healthy or even intact. The one person we know Holden really doesn't want to find out about his being kicked out of Pencey is Jane, so she could be one of the "rubbernecks." However, I don't think Holden would call Jane "stupid", so the people who would stare at his broken, crumpled life and body may just be people who expect more from him, like his family or Mr. Spencer. The rubbernecks could also include the people who would judge him in his state of depression, like Stradlater and the other boys at Pencey. Overall, this quote highlighted Holden's current mental state for the first time through his view, and opens up an analogy for interpretation.
I totally agree with what you said. Honestly I think that Holden is so lonely, it's impossible that he isn't having suicidal thoughts, but I don't know if he meant it to be completely literal. I think this was just away for Holden to express his thoughts about himself, but I doubt he really WANTS to seriously kill himself. If he really wanted to die, he probably would've committed suicide at Pencey, considering he was there for a great portion of his life.
DeleteThat's a really interesting point. I liked your idea of an analogy between the "rubbernecks" representing the people in Holden's life although I had a more literal interpretation of the quote you selected. I think that in the line you picked Holden is lonelier than he's ever been before. But I think he doesn't really want to kill himself and in those lines he's really expressing his longing for company because he claims that he wouldn't try to kill himself since he wouldn't want his body to be gawked at and then disregarded by a bunch of "rubbernecks" but he's really saying that he doesn't want to ever be a in a situation where he could die and no one would care. He wants to be with people like Jane who truly care about him and would be crushed if he killed himself. I think that overall, in this quote Holden is depressed because he fears that he's so alone that he could die without anyone mourning him and he doesn't know how to escape this fate.
ReplyDeleteI like your interpretation of the quote and I think it highlights more of Holden's personality, such as his need to feel wanted and cared for. I understand what you're saying about Holden not actually wanting to kill himself, but I'm still not sure if he meant it literally or not. Analyzing his situation, it is pretty bad and he does seem depressed, so I wouldn't be so surprised to hear more honest suicidal thoughts. But knowing Holden, he exaggerates often and those lines could have been another way to show his loneliness, and as you said, his worry that nobody cares anymore.
DeleteSorry this post above was supposed to be a comment on your post Sophie I don't know why it posted as a separate thingy.
Delete"Nobody'd be different. The only that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be so much older or anything. It wouldn't be that, exactly. You'd just be different that's all. You'd have an overcoat on this time." (pg. 135).
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because I kind of viewed this as a comparison Holden made from when he was little to where he is now. Holden is like describing change. More significantly the way he changed. He just claims it as a substitute teacher there for his teachers absence, or new parter in line while the one he was always with is sick. However, honestly I view this as is way of saying that he knows he changed a lot but yet he doesn't want to express it. Holden fears change and attempts to run way from it. It kind of made me wonder if Holden is realizing that he himself has changed drastically from adolescence. He now smokes and 'understands' the nature of women for the good and bad. He acts as if everyone around him has changed when he himself is a victim of change too. Holden is saying how everyone is different somehow, one way or another. He makes change seem as if its something thats just there and is not that important, but I feel that it's something very deep, especially to Holden. He sees change as a negative thing and I realized this when I read about Jane. He fears she has changed because she went out on a date with Stradlater. Holden is very judgmental about people and in some cases it's hypocritical.
We share every similar thoughts on this topic. Holden is afraid of change, because if he re meets someone that he felt was worth his time and they have changed, he would feel lost again. He wants someone in his life that has not changed because he has very high expectations, yet doesn't want to be alone. He believes that he is the only one that remembers things about the past and that he hasn't changed, but really, everyone changes in something.
Delete"I wasnt to crazy about her, but ive know her for years. I used to think she was quite intelligent and all." (pg 117)
ReplyDeleteIn class we went over how Holden values intellegence a lot. Here Holden is talking ab out a girl who he finds pretty attractive but says he "isnt into her" becuase he thinks that she is dumb. Holden values intellegence in a girl more then anything else it seems... not just in girls but in everyone, you can see with his sister and his brother he values that they are both smart and creative people. Holden doesnt look up to his brother DB because he doesnt think DB is a smart person and that he lacks creativity.
Why does Holden think so highly of people who are intellegent?
I think the reason Holden values smart people so much is because he looks for things in other people that he lacks in himself... Holden lacks a lot of intellegence that his sister has... he even says it himself, "she was 500 times smarter then ill ever be" (pg 48) Holdens sister is the perfect example of someone who is very smart that Holden looks up to. I think Holden admires his sister and he wants a girl that he admires just like her.
In conclusion Holden admires the brains that people have and how creative they are Holden has high expectations of people without truely looking at himself.
i agree he does value the intelligence but i think its cause he is such a phony and does not think that he's intelligent so he looks up to the more intelligent to help hide the fact that he does not make good choices.
DeleteI totally agree with this Atilla. Holden does look for intelligence in girls and in people in general and it is very important to him. I think that sometimes when he approaches people, he looks for the attractive ones to give him a basis on who to talk to, but once that step is done, if they aren't intelegent they aren't for him. I like how you pointed out his admiration for Phoebe. He does seem to look up to her more than his older brother. This could also be the result of him disliking his brother but also the fact that he expects more of his brother than he expects of Phoebe since she is younger. That could also be put into consideration. With that point, it could be said that when Holden feels like people judge him based on his gae, he is doing the same thing.
Delete"I went over and bought two orchestra seats for "I know my Love". It was a benefit performance or something. I didn't much want to see it, but I knew old Sally, the queen of the phonies..." (130)
ReplyDeleteThis line really stood out to me because it forced me as a reader to ask myself a question.This passage takes place right after Holden purchases tickets for the theater to go with Sally.
Throughout the book Holden has used the term phony quite often. He uses it to describe a person who he believes is fake or doesn't act like themselves around others. He has used the word to describe negative characters such as Ernie or Stradlater. When he describes "old" Sally as a phony, originally I thought he meant she was a fake person or somebody he didn't like. The ironic part though, was he had just invited her to spend time with him and now he calls her the queen of phonies. This passage really made me ask myself what a phonie is and why does Holden use it so often and why does it have so many meanings?
I agree with this on so many levels. And the best part is that he invited her to a movie he didn't even "want to see", so wouldn't that make him phony? I believe Holden is probably the most phoniest person in the book because he changes around anyone he talks to and he also criticizes everyone but never says it to their face. For example, at the Lavender Club he thinks these three girls are so ignorant and dumb but yet he still goes on to buy them drinks and try to talk to them.
DeleteThis makes so much sense! At first I thought that "phonies" were only "stupid people who I could stand" (to a certain degree), now I think that because he uses the term so often with girls and movie stars, it actually means "people who get more attention or are actually better than me." This really brings out Holden's jealous side. He might be jealous of Sally's beauty, and the skill of actors.
Delete“It made you depressed, and every once in a while, for no reason, you got goose flesh while you walked. It didn't seem at all like Christmas was coming soon. It didn't seem like anything was coming.” (pg.131)
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows how Holden is waiting for something to happen. Holden put this on himself to leave Pencey and to leave his family to go to a hotel in NYC. This book is about a teenager finding his place in the world and Holden is waiting for someone to tell him what he has to do. Holden is waiting for someone to tell him what he was made for, and he needs help because he cant figure it out himself. In the past few chapters he's just been wandering around and hasn't really done anything productive. Holden is expecting someone to do to him what he thinks they do to the ducks and “come around in a truck or something and take them away.”pg 91. But really he's going to have to find his own way and nobody is going to carry him. I think that’s what Holden means by ,”It didn't seem like anything was coming” he really meant to say, “it didn't seem like anyone was going to point me in a direction and say ‘this is what you have to do with your life.’”
I agree with you fully Holden is trying to find his place in the world but he is not willing to work for it. He expects to have everything handed to him but that is not what is going to happen in life. He needs to strive towards what he wants but he seems like he has no motivation at all in his whole life.
Delete"What I really felt like doing, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window" (117).
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden consider suicide after the encounter with Sunny and Maurice?
I really liked Sophie and Ilana's discussion about this quote and who Holden's "rubbernecks" are, but I decided to take a different approach. From the moment I read this quote, I wondered why Holden really wanted to commit suicide.
It's because he thinks he's not manly enough.
Holden has talked before (in chapter 13) about how he's "yellow", which means cowardly. He says that he's the type of person who would want to punch someone, but would only think about it, not actually do it.
In his room with Maurice and Sunny, Holden hates how his voices cracks and shakes when he's nervous. He doesn't punch back when Maurice hits him, and can't do much more than call his adversaries names. Holden considers suicide because he thinks he compares himself to Maurice, and thinks he's more "yellow" than the elevator operator. Being macho is important to Holden because it attracts attention and shows he's not a phony, so when he discovers he's not as manly as others, he wants to kill himself.
I definitely agree with you on this one. Throughout the story Holden thinks of himself so highly. However, through his encounter with Sunny and Maurice he seems to realize how weak he really is. Like you mentioned above, his voice was trembling and he didn't physically fight back. Not being able to physically defend yourself doesn't usually drive somebody to suicide. But to Holden this event was much more than his lack of physical prowess. It showed himself that he is not as "macho" as he thought he was both physically and mentally.
DeleteGarrett, your response is really accurate! Holden does have a huge ego anyway, so now I understand how being weak was even more heartbreaking for him.
DeleteMarcella, your point was so interesting and took a deep look into the text. I cannot help but to agree with you. Holden tries to put up this strong facade to cover up the vulnerability he has. I think now we have to look at the cause of the vulnerability Holden has because it seems to be the root of many of his tactics. Ever since Allie died Holden has become this impulsive boy who feels the need to study others rather than himself. This weakness comes with the need of approval. Having his voice crack and shake and not being able to punch back all leads to Holden's constant need to seek approval of others and himself. He hates phonies and so admitting that he is one himself is a stab to the heart. Holden rather kill himself than know that he is a product of the society he hates.
DeleteI really like your take on the quote. But, if anything, wouldn't being "macho" make someone more phony? Personally, when I think of "macho" I think of Prince Charming when he goes to save the Princess, which I think is something that Holden would think is phony. I think that because he doesn't have any macho-ness he automatically thinks that being macho is phony.
Delete"grand. if theres one word i hate its grand. its so phony." (138)
ReplyDeletegrand what does it mean, it means big or giant or a big gesture. holden is a grand gesture he thinks of him self so highly and everyone else are morons so is what he is saying is he is phony or does holden not like himself so he pretends to be some phony grand guy. through out the book he is a phony but he rarly admits to it but is he delicately admitting to it now. i know that when you don't like who you are you pretend to be some grand person-a phony-
I agree with you on how Holden looks at himself as a grand person. On page 120 he says how he hates when people have cheap suitcases, because Holden of course is the one with the more "grand" kind of suit case. It shows you how Holden thinks of himself as a person. I guess he uses these kind of things to cover up his depression.
Deletethats good comparison and thoughts !
Delete" They were very inexpensive looking suitcases-the ones that aren't genuine leather or anything. It isn't important, I know, but I hate it when somebody has cheap suitcases."(pg.120)
ReplyDeleteThe reason this line stands out to me is because he is saying that it isn't important but yet it is the first thing he notices. I'm still a little confuse about Holden because it's not only about him being hypocritical he is just such a complicated person. Him of all people shouldn't be judging anybody in the situation he is in right now. I can connect this to life because there is a saying don't judge a book by its cover and Holden seems to do the opposite. This line is saying the people are very hypocritical not only Holden but people in general.
I though the same thing when I read this. This made me think about Holden's priority. When he was rooming with Dick who had inexpensive suitcase, he liked him and though he had a great sense of humor. However because he is poorer than Holden, he believes that because of his status ,they can't truly be equal. When he is with Stradlater,although he can't stand him, its alright because they are on a "equal" level.
Delete"If an actor acts it out, I hardly listen. I keep worrying about whether he's going to do something phony every minute," (pg. 117).
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because it really revealed a lot about Holden. It seems that he can't even enjoy a play or movie because he 's "worrying about whether he's going to do something phony." How sad is that? I just couldn't wrap my head around the importance of the word "phony". He says the word "phony" throughout the book and it seems that every person he encounters is in fact a phony. Why do phonies have such an impact on Holden's life? Why are they so annoying to Holden? Phonies probably annoy everyone. Nobody likes a "fake" person. But every little thing or mistake a person makes, Holden becomes instantly judgmental. In the quote Holden is worrying about people he doesn't know. Overall, I think that Holden shows just how judgmental he really is through this quotation.
I completely agree with this. When Holden said that, I started to feel sorry for him. He can't even enjoy a performance because he is so intent on finding phonies and pointing out flaws. He tries to keep himself safe by judging others. He thinks that if he writes off all other people, then they can't harm him. It's like his defense mechanism against all people. No matter what, Holden is judging.
DeleteI agree with both of you and I think it's so interesting how Holden loves to perform but then has a problem with actors. Why would actors be more "phony" than Holden if they both like to perform? I think that really Holden aspires to be like an actor and be able to change into different personas and moods at a moment's notice instead of constantly running from his problems without any goals or direction. Maybe that's why Holden enjoys 'performing' so much because when he performs he can put his life on hold and turn to humor as a depression relief and an outlet for his hidden creativity.
DeleteI agree that Holden is really judgmental and over uses the word "phony." I also agree that throughout the book Holden has been very judgmental of other people and this quote really wrapped most of it up. I cant imagine myself going to a play and only watching the actors to see if they are phony; it really shows how Holden is really fixated on other people. I think Holden tells us that everybody is phony because he only looks at the bad or mistakes in other people. I think this quote shows how he is very fixated on other people's actions.
Delete"Then a funny thing happened. When I got to the museum, all of a suddenI wouldn't have gone inside for a million bucks." (p. 122)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because it is a perfect piece of evidence for Holden running from his past. For several pages, Holden describes his time going to the museum as a kid, and reminisces on the good times he had there. Then after walking all the way to the museum, Holden doesn't even go in. This is because he is afraid. Those times are all gone, and he doesn't want to remind himself of that. As long as he doesn't go in, those memories won't be replaced. This all comes back to Holden not yet being ready for adulthood, and still wanting to be a kid. In addition, after Holden tells of his times at the museum, he puts on his hunting hat. He does this because he feels exposed after sharing these memories. He needs the sense of security the hat brings. Holden feels very insecure and unsafe in this passage.
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DeleteInteresting point... I agree that Holden feels safe and insecure... but why do you think that Holden is running from his childhood? I understand that he doesnt want to be reminded of his childhood and he doesnt want his memories to be replaced... but why do do you think that he doesnt want those memories to be replaced? Why do you think that Holden is so reluctant to make new memories? Is it because he doesnt know who he is yet and that he is to scared to find out? Or do you think that something in Holdens childhood was so precious to him he doent want to loose those memories?
Delete"I took a look out the window before I left the room, though, to see how all the perverts were doing, but they all had their shades down." (139)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because it shows how much of a hypocrite Holden is. By definition a pervert is "a person with abnormal sexual behavior. An example of a pervert is someone who peeks into his or her neighbor's bathroom." (http://www.yourdictionary.com/pervert) Holden keeps calling all of the people who are just keeping to themselves perverts, when he is really the pervert in the situation. Holden is looking through his window and watching these people and even getting aroused. While, for example, the transvestite is strutting around his own room minding his own business. How is it fair of Holden to judge the people so harshly and accuse them of being perverts when they have done nothing wrong? I think that Holden is doing that because he knows that he is being a pervert, but doesn't want to admit it to the reader so he is saying that the people in the windows are. I think that this also shows how much of an unreliable narrator Holden is. Holden is trying to pin names on people who don't deserve those names and giving us false information about them.
I agree with you Susannah. Holden himself is being a pervert but he just doesn't want to admit it. Holden is always looking for someone to blame. I also thought that this and something to do with his loneliness. He has nothing to do so now he looks out the window to see others. He seems os desperate! There are many words to describe Holden, but I think one of the biggest ones would be a hypocrite. Just like you said, how does he have the right to judge other's who are minding their own business when he has some problems of his own?
DeleteI completely agree with you! I think your response links back to what we discussed in class--the fact that Holden is a walking contradiction. The people were only being themselves, by themselves, and gave Holden no right to judge them. I think this shows how unhappy Holden is. The fact that he goes out of his way to point out flaws about other people is really sad. He has nothing else to do, so he turns to the hobby he knows best--finding out the things that he thinks are 'wrong' about other people. He refuses to leave them alone, and, as a reader, it's very frustrating. Holden really is an unreliable narrator, because he's been lying to himself for all that we've read. As readers, we have to make countless different assumptions about Holden that he doesn't even want to know about himself. This links back to Holden's genuine unhappiness--while he loves to look at the flaws in others, he refuses to point out what he needs to do to fix himself. Therefore, not only is Holden unhappy, but he's really scared. He's scared of himself, because once he actually does admit to what he's doing wrong, he won't know what to do afterwards, because it's what he's been doing his whole life.
Delete"I kept walking and walking, and I kept thinking about old Phoebe going to that museum on Saturdays the way I used to." (136)
ReplyDeleteThis line really stood out to me because it shows how much Holden misses his childhood. Before this quote, Holden recalled every exact detail of his trips to the museum as a young child. He remembered who he stood in line with, his teacher's name, what the museum guards would say to him. Everything. Concerning Holden, we have learned that he recalls the exact details of things and people he loves. Jane, for instance. He remembered how she kept all her kings in the back row. Also, going back to Holden's description of his experiences at the museum, nothing he said gave off a negative connotation. Even when he referenced the guard telling him to stop doing something, he said "but he always said it in a nice voice, not like a goddamn cop or anything." He compares the orders of a museum guard--something he experienced as a kid, without any problems--to those of a cop, something he would experience as an older kid, with more worries and more to deal with as a whole. Holden really misses that museum, and all that it represents--a careless, younger, more innocent version of himself. Holden desperately wishes that he could go back to that place, where he didn't have anything to lie to himself about, or hide from his parents, or be afraid of. Holden views his childhood as a way to escape from all the madness he's experiencing as a sixteen-year-old who's by himself, without a soul present for him to willingly open up too. Thinking about his childhood makes Holden feel even more alone than usual, and he doesn't have a clue as to what to do.
“It wouldn't have killed me. But I didn't feel like it. You really have to be in the mood for that stuff” (130)
ReplyDeleteThis is about the third time that Holden has told us that “you have to be in the mood for that stuff” and my frustration with his unreliability has gone through the roof. Holden is never in the mood to speak with Jane, but is always in the mood to speak to prostitutes, ex-girlfriends, and older women. I feel like Holden is teasing himself by continually mentioning Jane and all that is holy yet never wanting to hold on to it. It is like a five year old turning his head over and over again to look at a piece of cotton candy but never feeling the need to walk the extra mile and keep that delicious piece of cotton candy forever. This behavior from Holden might spring from the fact that Allie was once his delicious treat. And when he cherished Allie for as long as he possibly could, that treat vanished. So now whenever Holden sees a piece of cotton candy, he will never “be in the mood” to cherish it. He will only appreciate from a distance but never all for himself because he has understood that when you keep candy for too long it begins to rot.
I completely agree with you. I feel like Holden has a problem with expressing himself or showing how he truly feels. Its like one point he really like Jane and everything but yet he shows affection with the prostitutes and older women. Like the scene in the lavender room.
DeleteI agree with you on that, and I love the comparison! I can see that Holden is afraid to approach Jane, and the excuse of having to "be in the mood for that" must hold some significant meaning as he only uses it when she is the subject in mind. I think Holden is running away from his past because he can't face the feelings or the memories that happened, hence why he has such a problem expressing himself.
Delete“All of a sudden, while I was laying there smoking, somebody knocked on the door. I kept hoping it wasn’t my door they were knocking on, but I knew damn well it was…I was pretty scared.”
ReplyDeleteThis line really stands out to me because when someone knocked on the door, Holden was hoping it was not his door but right after the second knock, Holden figured out that it was Sunny and Maurice knocking. When Holden opened the door, he found Sunny and Maurice standing in the doorway, his voice was trembling and he was scared, he asked what they wanted from him. They answered the “five bucks” for Sunny.
The question that I have is why after the argument about five bucks, did Holden have thoughts about shooting Maurice six times in his stomach? Did he just picture this happening because of his imagination from movies or because he actually wanted to shoot him?
I think at that point Holden was so fed up with Maurice that he pictured his revenge of him shooting him and killing him. Also, I do agree with you and I think that line stands out too to me because it shows a lot of his emotions in the inside versus his actions in the outside.
Delete“If a body catch a body coming through the rye.” Page 115
ReplyDeleteIn chapter fourteen Maurice and Sally come back to Holden for five dollars, after he refuses to give this to them Maurice shoots Holden with a gun in the stomach. Then, Holden feeling very lonesome and depressed he schedules a date with Sally. Holden soon has a memory after of not letting Allie go with him and his friend with BB guns to try and shoot something because Allie was younger. After that, when walking in the street he sees a boy singing this song, “If a body catch a body coming through the rye.” After Holden hears this he becomes much happier and less depressed and he admires the kid singing this a lot and believes he was a great singer in terms of that song despite that he is a kid. This shows that Holden is much less judgmental of people in their adolescence then people who are older than him.
I think Holden is also mesmerized with the childlike innocence of it. He lives in a world filled with people and things that he constantly and actively despises, so it probably cheers him up to see an innocent kid that might have a good future. Holden probably likes children like pheobe, allie and this child because of his hatred of "phonys". Children don't have a perception of social obligations and therefor never do things just to please others or seem cool.
Delete"It made me so damn sad when I thought about it, their never going anywhere swanky for lunch or anything."
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me feel like Holden cared for people who were less fortunate and didn't have a lot of money. It also reminded me of how he was sad about his roommate's suitcase. This made me wonder if Holden only felt bad for people less fortunate than he is, and everyone else is a big-shot phony bastard in his opinion. It also made me think that Holden thinks of other people as only one thing, such as poor, phony or a moron. This could be part of his social problems, he can't talk to people because in his eyes they have only one trait and he can't see past that idea of them.
I agree that Holden feels bad for people who have less money. Also, to add, I feel that quote demonstrates the importance of having lunch in a swanky place to Holden. To me, Holden thinks that everyone wants a swanky lunch and he doesn't realize that there is more to life than luxuries like that, like friendship.
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ReplyDelete“I hate it when somebody has cheap suitcases. Its sounds terrible to say it, but I can even get to hate somebody, if they have cheap suitcases with them.”
ReplyDeleteThroughout the book, Holden judges almost everyone he meets. I feel this quote takes his judging to a whole new level. Instead of judging people on their actions and choices, he is judging people on things they can’t really do anything about, like in this case, being unable to afford an expensive suitcase.
I don’t really think he hates people who don’t have expensive suitcases. I think he just hates feeling guilty about having more money than they do. This brings me back to when he says “almost every time someone gives me a present, it ends up making me sad”, which implies that he feels he doesn't deserve it. The suitcase quote grows from this, adding that he hates people who deserve, but don’t have, what he has.
After the quote, he goes on to talking about his old roommate who couldn't afford expensive suitcases. Holden explains that his roommate used to joke about Holden having bourgeois stuff, but as time passed he wasn't joking anymore. Holden said it in a way that made me think that he liked his roommate at first, but when he changed, Holden "hated" him. I feel this relates to Holden's fear of change, similar to when he feared Jane had changed after finding out she was going on a date with Stradlater.
I agree. I think that when holden has something that is more expensive than his self he feels guilty. He does not what people to think that he is "rubbing it in their faces" that is richer or more important than him.
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ReplyDelete" He was singing just for the hell of it, you could tell... " If a body catch a body coming through the rye." It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed any more." -pg. 129
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because it shows how Holden feels about growing up. Holden is constantly being reminded that he is getting older and has to be more responsible. When Holden is with other teens, and adults, he points out their flaws and insults them, directly or indirectly like he did to the women at the lavender club. However, when Holden is with kids like Allie and Phoebe, he feels happier and never insults them. Allie, Phoebe, and this little boy remind that while he is growing up, he is also still a kid and does not have to become the phony he thinks he is becoming.
I agree with you on what you said because Holden is always reminded by friends to not be childish because he's getting older, but it also shows how he feels about stereotypical stuff in life. He wants to break the barrier of the stereotypes of teenagers and adults that are used in life. It shows how he wants to be different from everybody else and wants to be his own person
Delete"Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so miserable, you can't imagine." (110)
ReplyDeleteThis was thought by Holden on page 110 of the class set of books. This quote really stuck out to me for a few reasons. The first reason is because it was the first time that Holden outwardly expressed that he was miserable, even though it was implied. This really emphasizes Holden's thoughts and feelings. Even though this was right after Sunny left, I can infer that this quote was not directly meant towards this specific time and situation. When I read this and the rest of this chapter, I thought of this as Holden meaning this toward his entire life. He was tired of the chaos, the frustration of not knowing where to go in life, the loneliness of not having any friends or anyone that he can go to. The next reason that this stuck out to me is because it raises the question of "What is Holden going to do about this feeling of misery?" It really makes you think about what he has done before to get out of certain situations, such as when he left Pencey a few days earlier than he was supposed to. He has gone from night club to night club, but what is Holden going to do when going out in the middle of the night to night clubs isn't a big enough solution to his life problems?
"Goddamn money it always ends up making you blue as hell."(113)
ReplyDeleteHolden struggles with having and keeping money in this novel. He thinks he can buy himself happiness but he can't. For example, sex with sunny the hooker. He believes it, even though he can never have it (contradiction). "Money corrupts and does not in itself buy happiness." His own experience shows that he has not spent his money on things that brought relief on his pain but, whatever plan he had at the time of spending is "dashed away" in the realization that it has not made him feel better. Money is not always a great thing to have because, "Either someone has too much money and ends up doing the wrong thing with it, or he/she does not have enough money and they end up doing the wrong thing to get it." Which as a result in this quote that Holden states can show a result in people feeling blue and depressed no matter which way it goes.
I agree with your point that in either having too much or too little of something (in this case money) can lead you in a bad place because of how hard you are trying. As you said, Holden does things to try and relieve his pain at times and then later on he notices that it never helps.
Delete"They annoy the hell out of me, if you want to know the truth. The Disciples were all right after Jesus was dead and all, but while he was alive they were about as much use to him as a hole in the head..." (111)
ReplyDeleteThis quote from Holden really stands out to me because it shows how Holden's religion really resembles and relates to his life here. This line seems really important to me in some way because maybe Holden uses his Christian religiousness to relate back to his life and maybe he doesn't know it but it really helps him. I think that this quote is saying how Holden is a critical thinker of not only the other people in his life but of himself and his predicaments that he's in and really thinksd of a way to cool himself down. It shows his reflectfulness of his own life. In conclusion, I think that this quote is saying to the real life world in general to think before you do something, and to be reflectful on your life and think about which direction to take it in.
" 'Leave me alone.Get the hell out of my room,' I said. I still had my arms folded and all. God, what a jerk I was." (pg. 114)
ReplyDelete" 'Who's hurting anybody?' innocent as hell."
In this section of the book, Holden encounters Maurice who is Sunny's pimp. He demands five more dollars from Holden for Sunny's services, but Holden won't give it up. During this, he keeps saying things like what is in the quote. This shows himself putting himself down or blaming himself for the situation. He acts like and says things that make it seem like he knows that the situation is his fault, but he is also blaming himself for being so stubborn for not giving Maurice the five dollars he could definitely afford instead of getting hurt. We know Holden can afford to pay the five dollars, but it seems to be that his pride comes into play here too. He won't give up the five dollars because he doesn't want to seem like a wimp, like he says when he's crying. I think that he dislikes himself for doing this to himself, even though he can't help it. This is the reason for himself beating himself up while he's depressed.
"The goddam movies. They can ruin you. I'm not kidding."
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting how throughout the book Holden is very perceptive and also totally ignorant at the same time. As illustrated by this quote Holden is very in touch with the fact that his wish to dramatically murder Maurice comes from the media and Hollywood. He also acts very perceptive in times like when he realizes Mr. Spencer feels bad for flunking him and his perception of Stradlater as a very shallow individual. He is often good at analyzing people and their motives. However, he is completely ignorant about himself on most occasions. He tries to paint himself as very apathetic, even though many parts in the book show that he is not. He completely ignorant about his feelings when dealing with rejection, especially with woman. He constantly patronizes woman, probably part of a subconscious response to they're rejection of him. It seems like while he is very good at understanding others, he is bad recognizing his own feelings and motives. This is probably because he is afraid to confront his feelings and is also in denial about his own sensitivity and emotions. He doesn't seems to know why he does or doesn't do things. He apparently left Pency because he "felt like it" even though the reasons he left is clear to us. When he repeatedly decides not to call Jane he claims that he "wasn't in the right mood" even though he is probably scared of being rejected.
"'Let's have it, chief.' He came right up to where i was standing. That's all he could say. 'Let's have it, chief.' He was a real moron.
ReplyDelete'No.'" (page 114)
This quote stands out to me because I see a whole other side of Holden that I don't feel has been freed yet. When I read this line, it shocked me because Holden's response is so sudden and confident. Holden has shown confidence in the past, but the fact that at this very moment he responds to this big intimidating guy with such toughness really shows a whole other side of him. This shows one major aspect about Holden:
It shows that on the outside, he is not very intimidating and appears unconfident, but on the inside he has a big and powerful personality that is trapped. People these days, especially kids, have to use this inner confidence to stand up for themselves, even if that confidence doesn't show on the outside.
"I pictured myself coming out of the goddam bathroom, dressed and all, with my automatic in my pocket, and staggering around a little bit... "(104).
ReplyDeleteThis scene stood out to me because Holden created a very vivid picture as to what he preferred would've happened between him and Maurice. It shows me what kind of imagination Holden has, and how his mind reflects on reality and morphs it into his own, one where he's much more heroic and confident. I think this scene shows what Holden wishes was his reality, instead of the one he was living in. A world where he could call up Jane without needing to "be in the mood for it", one where he could defend himself and come out as the winner, all the time. He knows what he wishes to happen simply won't, yet it's the reality he would much rather focus on. When he realizes that, he gets extremely depressed, thinking to the point of suicide. He wants to escape from something, anything.
I like how you said, "He knows what he wishes to happen simply won't, yet it's the reality he would rather focus on." I agree with you, because I myself have seen this in earlier parts of the book, too. Not only does Holden rather focus on that reality but he also tries to imagine himself living in that reality instead of dealing with his problems. Earlier in the book, we've seen how he pretends or imagines himself being part of a movie and reacting to things differently from how he does in real life. Even though movies are one of Holden's big pet peeves because of their fake emotions and stereotyped roles. Holden's not completely spiteful, though. He says, "I hate the movies like a poison, but I get a bang imitating them" (pg. 29). I wonder what Holden finds in imitating movies? Is it the fact that he's able to get a glimpse or imagine th life he'd want? I think Holden uses acting as a way to get away from his problems and not deal with them. However, this is a big tragedy that does lead to his depression and thoughts about suiccide, as you mentioned.
Delete"I'd spent a king's ransom in about two weeks. I really had. I'm a goddam spendthrift at heart. What I don't spend, I lose. Half of the time I sort of even forget to pick up my change, at restaurants and night clubs and all."
ReplyDeleteThis quote helped me find out more about what kind of person Holden really is. The quote stood out to me in the first place because I am like that. I recently just spent a lot of money in the span of a couple of days and just thinking about it makes me regret it. Nowadays, people need to put themselves on a budget and stop spending so much because they need to be able pay bills and have a stable life. It just shows that Holden isn't mature enough to manage money, something that lens towards childhood, where you are unaware of prices and how much it really is. Hence, he is still able to realize that he is a "spendthrift". However, he is a bit extreme because he forgets change, most people cannot do that, its nearly impossible for me to forget. He also offers nearly everyone he has a decent conversation with to drink! Then again, we have to consider that this was decades ago, where the US wasn't in as many debt, and people could be more careless with their money. Although, since he is spending so much money like this, it shows he cannot live on his own yet, he is only sixteen, he needs someone. Just like he is all lonely and clearly doesn't like it, he needs someone that will fill that gap and also help him become an adult. This is just one of the many things that Holden needs to evolve in. He may be smart and worldly for a teenager, he is not fully capable yet.
"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody’d move. . . . Nobody’d be different. The only thing that would be different would be you " (135).
ReplyDeleteIn this passage, Holden explains why he loves the Museum of Natural History. As he walks from Central Park to the Museum of Natural History, he remembers his school trips to the museum. So far in the book, Holden has already demonstrated that he fears and does not know how to deal with conflict, confusion, and change. In the museum, Holden can judge the Eskimo in the display case, but the Eskimo will never judge him back. It troubles him that he has changed each time he returns, while the museum’s displays remain completely the same. The museum presents him with a vision of life he can understand: it is frozen, silent, and always the same.
I found it interesting and significant that in the final sentence Holden uses “you” instead of “me.” I believe it's his attempt to distance himself from change. However, because Holden desires such a fantasy, rather than facing the challenges around him, he retreats to a fantasy world of his own making. He always pictures himself as part of a movie, for example, he imagines himself as a movie character, taking his revenge on Maurice, after having been plugged in the gut with a gangster’s bullet, instead of actually reacting to how Maurice treated him.
When he actually gets to the museum, he decides not to go in, because that would require disturbing his fragile imaginative construction by making it encounter the real world. He wants life to remain frozen like the display cases in the museum.
“What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window.”(p.117)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me the most out of the three chapters. Holden constantly mentions how he is depressed, and how many things make him sad. After leaving Pencey, he realized how lonely he is. He doesn’t even have the courage to go home and tell his parents that he had gotten kicked out! He spends his pre-vacation inside his hotel room, smoking cigarettes, and trying to find something to do every night. Personally, I think Holden is lost. He’s lost in his heart and mind. Maybe taking this time off from his reality is what he needs to do to get back on track.
"he didn't get sore about it- he never got sore about anything- but I keep thinking about it anyway, when I get very depressed" (pg.99)
ReplyDeletein this scene, Holden is remembering the time up in Maine with Bobby Fallon. When they would ride to lake Sedebego on their bikes and go to shoot at stuff with their BB guns. Allie wanted to go too, but Holden wouldn't let him. Although this line does show how Allies death caused much pain to Holden, it also shows some signs of regret. I feel that if he could go back, he would take advantage of all the time he would have had with Allie even the small moments like going to the lake to shoot at stuff.
"Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed" (110).
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows us how much he looks up to his brother. Earlier in the book, He talks about how he felt when his brother died. Holden broke the windows and when was about to punch straddler, mentions how he could not make a fist because of it. Holden is not one to show emotion and him talking this way about his brother is big. We do not get to see this side of Holden that talks this way about people; as if they are still alive and are are completely capable of putting them thought their hard times.
Well herrro der lil humans
ReplyDelete