Choose a line from the text and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in general?
Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
** Make sure you use your full name
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"If somebody, some girl in an awful-looking hat, for instance, comes all the way to New York-from Seattle, Washington, for God's sake-and ends up getting up early in the morning to see the first goddam show at Radio City Music Hall, it makes me so depressed I can't stand it I'd've bought the whole three of them a hundred drinks if only they hadn't told me that. " -page 98
ReplyDeleteThis line stands out to me because in it Holden is being very cynical. Holden is judging these three girls he just met in the club without really knowing them at all, and calling their lives 'depressing' and ranting about them to the reader but really his true intention with the rant is to hide his loneliness. What this line really shows about Holden is that he's desperate for a friend. For instance, he claims that he would have bought those girls a hundred drinks if they hadn’t told him about going to Radio City Music Hall but in reality, he didn't have the chance to buy them a hundred drinks because they left before he could. Despite claiming they're 'stupid' and that what he’s saying is ‘above their heads’, he really just craved those girls’ affection; he didn’t care if they were stereotypically dumb, he just wanted to dance and have fun with them. And when he realized these girls were all about looking for someone better, like a movie star, to hangout with and weren’t interested in him-it was hurtful, and he tried to hide his pain behind what he wrote as annoyance and by trying to find fault in their girls by describing them as stupid and naive. I know that personally, I've had experiences where I'll mask my true feelings with sarcasm or judgement and like Holden, pretend to be above emotion. Generally, as this line shows, sometimes it’s easier for people to mask being hurt or dejected by putting other people down mentally and trying to be superior. But at the end of the day, everyone-even Holden Caulfield-doesn’t want to be alone; everyone needs a friend to trust, to confide in, and to validate their thoughts because ideas would be meaningless without anyone to share them with. Overall, this line stood out to me because it gave me clearer look into how and why Holden choses to judge people and how it really relates to his loneliness.
I completely agree with you Ilana! The girls at the club just illustrated Holden's loneliness and longing for company, but he would never admit to it. Instead, he judges them and comes to some pretty hurtful conclusions, but still tries to command their attention and converse with them. Holden's thoughts make us think one thing, but his actions prove to be more honest. A part of that scene that I remember was when he told Laverne that he had just seen Gary Cooper leave the club. Afterwards, Holden said that he was "sorry as hell" that he kidded her. In this case, his thoughts seem to be very truthful. What were your thoughts on this event?
DeleteI thought that turn-around from Holden was really interesting! On the one hand, Holden wants to joke around with these girls to feel like he's superior to them but at the same time, he draws a line at where a joke turns to just being cruel. In this way, Holden's (as usual) very contradictory. But the way he feels remorse for the joke he played on that girl shows that there is some part of him that doesn't want to mess with people, that wants to be honest and connect with people and I think he just doesn't know how to access that part of him and make it reflect externally and not just internally
DeleteI agree with both of you and I would like to add onto the examples given. Another event that took place in the book was with Ackley, and how despite the fact that he was unsanitary and didn't really understand Holden, (that's at least what Holden thinks) he still goes over to him after the fight that he had with Stradlater. He even acts like Ackley when he is in his room, for instance, when he lays on Ackley's roommate's bed, and doesn't respond quickly when Ackley asks him to turn off the lights (chapter seven). Just like it was stated, he probably did it for attention because deep down, he really wants company, someone like the people he had before, that he cannot reach anymore.
DeleteI agree with how you said that him being with these strangers was him striving for affection. It was like him practically begging. He starting acting all mature just for their attention. Not only that he was constantly ignored by the blonde girl he was dancing with! Its as if he was mentally saying "I need her attention". But other then that, I honestly loved how you connected your self to Holden's loneliness and how he hides himself from confronting his feelings. Its like your saying you know how it feels like and you know where he's coming from.
Delete"The only reason I didn't do it was because I wasn't in the mood. If you're not in the mood, you can't do that stuff right," (71).
ReplyDeleteHolden said this while he was staying at the Edmont, after he decided against calling Jane. This line stood out to me because it sounded relatively absurd compared to his other excuses to not call people, like his sister who was most likely in bed or his old acquaintance, who he wasn't that fond of. My conclusion is that Holden honestly couldn't find a valid excuse, but he was too afraid of screwing up that he had to find some reason to not call her. The second sentence of the quote shows that Holden thinks there is a right way and a wrong way of calling someone, and he believed that he would fail at yet another thing, but just because he was "not in the mood." Holden wants to come off as confident and suave, calling up girls right and left, but he second guesses himself and tries to play off his decisions with some lame excuse. Overall, Holden is insecure and doesn't want to take risks because he is so afraid of failing.
I really like your point and agree with thinking that Holden's afraid to take risks because he's afraid to fall. I think at this point, he's so socially awkward that he just honestly doesn't know how to be social anymore. When he talks to people, all he knows how to do is "shoot the crap". I think he didn't want to call Jane because she's someone he truly cares about and he knows that he can't just "shoot the crap". And when he's not just saying all the ridiculous things he knows people want to hear, I think he really doesn't understand how to connect with people. In a way, he's in this infinite search for another Holden Caulfield to talk to because he doesn't know how to be real with anyone other than himself.
Deletei agree as well holden is wearing a mask for every one evan himself which is showing how he is afraid to fail and be who he really is not the boy who says "i wasn't in the mood." Ilana i i totally agree with you its very true that when he lifts his mask he is awkward but in my opinion better, i disagree with you saying that he is truthful with himself he is not at all!
DeleteIn some ways I agree with what you are saying and in some ways I don’t. Holden isn't necessarily afraid of “screwing up” I just believe, like we said in class, that he doesn't want Jane to see him like this. We can tell Holden has an affection for Jane when in the dorm he’s constantly asking Stradlater about her, and then he even punches him when he finds out what they did on their “date”. Furthermore, he knows he's in such a mess that he wouldn't want to involve more things he has to worry about. Additionally, Holden has been lying and lying lately and I feel like he's done enough. Him saying he “wasn't in the mood” is like him saying he cant take it anymore. He feels as though there is no lie big enough to tell Jane if he were to call her to cover up the trouble he's in. Overall, I believe he just needs some time to figure out where he stands and what he's going to do with himself. I believe him going to the hotel is the best decision he's made so far because now he's all alone and doesn't have to lie to anyone. I think when the time comes he’ll call Jane and tell her the truth.
DeleteI also agree that he is loneliness and social awkward and is covering it up. I think he is doing this because he wants to tell himself that he isn't who he is, lonely and socially awkward with an excuse such as, "I wasn't in the right mood." I also believe that he thinks that if he fails he will become more depressed than he already is, which is why he didn't make the call to Jane.
DeleteI agree with you completely. I was thinking the same thing, especially the part where you said that his excuse was very different than usual excuses. I think that he didn't want to start any more drama or stress in his life. He was already dealing with finding a hotel that ended up being terrible. Also, There is a connection to the world, which is the feeling where sometimes you just don't want to start something chaotic even if it means sacrificing something else. This same quote stood out to me too.
DeleteI see what you are saying, Jason, and I do agree that Holden doesn't want Jane to see him as he is now, but I still think that he is afraid of making a mess of their relationship. Holden has been a "failure" in his mind for the majority of his life, being the "dumb one in the family" (his exact words!) and flunking out of multiple schools, so it would only make sense that he is afraid to fail again. Additionally, going to the hotel may have been a good decision, but perhaps going to the club wasn't. You said that Holden doesn't have to lie to anyone at the hotel, and you're right, but he still does when he talks to the three girls, lying about his name and indirectly saying that he's older than he really is. But I also hope that Holden will begin to be more truthful with himself and others, and finally face his fears and call Jane.
Delete"The first thing I did when I got off at Penn Station, I went into this phone booth. But as soon as I went inside, I couldn't think of anybody to call up. My brother D.B was in Hollywood..." (66)
ReplyDeleteHolden was in a phone booth at Penn Station trying to think of who to call on the phone. This quote especially stood out to me because it shows how Holden has a way of contradiction with himself and about other people. In the beginning of the book Holden's tone sounded like he didn't want to have any cellular contact with D.B. He sounded very envious, jealous, and didn't really like his personality. Now in the passage it seems like he found the good in his older brother because now he's even considering calling him from the telephone booth. His contradiction really came out mostly in that part. This feeling of contradiction with yourself and other people really relates and connects to my life as well because he, just like me tries to look for the bad in people first before the good. But, really we both have intellectual minds and try to pick apart a person. I think the quote based on the real-life world particularly shows how to find the good in a person. This line is saying that people in the real world should look for the good in people before looking for the bad in people.
I thought that part was really interesting too. The way Holden immediately goes to a phone booth as if he has to call someone shows his compulsive desire to have someone he can call at anytime about anything but as soon as he gets in the phone booth it's as if reality suddenly strikes him and realizes he really is pretty much all alone. And in a way, he's the reason he has no one; all his judgements of other people and his critical thinking has restricted his ability to truly connect with people.
DeleteI agree with Ilana on this because for example at the beginning of the book, his poor judgment of Ackley, not really finding the good in Ackley is putting himself in a predicament that now when Holden really needs someone to talk to and is desperate for attention. Ackley now isn't there for him to talk to about his bottle up anger.
DeleteI do feel that at least a bit jealous of his brother. Just like you said, he clearly states, "My brother D.B was in Hollywood.." as if we didn't know he was. That's the first thing he thinks when his mind come across his brother, 'Hollywood'. In the beginning of the book he did say the bad about him and then the good, but unlike his other siblings, he does the complete opposite, say all the good and says each time, "You'd like her" or "You would've liked him". His brother is living a careless life while he's here with the pressure on his shoulders because he got kicked out of Pencey.
Deletei also agree with what you said about how this happens in real life, because when you are mad or jealous of someone or think a certain (negative) way of someone, you think/bring out all the bad first in that moment. Later on you may~ bring out the good.
"I think they should have at least offered to pay for the drinks they had before I joined them--I wouldn't've let them, naturally, but they should have at least offered. I didn't care much though. They were so ignorant, and they had those sad, fancy hats and on all." (pg. 84)
ReplyDeleteHolden is very conscious of the world around him. He has many thoughts and judgements but does not express them. For instance, he thought that the group of people he was sitting with should have at least offered to pay for their own drinks. However, he then says how he would have "naturally" paid for them anyway. This was his way to make himself feel generous and proud of himself. Holden says it as if he's a much better person them everyone else by showing the courtesy of paying for the drinks. He then brushes it off saying "I didn't care much though. They were so ignorant, and they had those sad, fancy hats and on all". This was his way of saying how it wasn't much of a deal. However, it emphasizes his loneliness. He could not find anyone to call thats when he came to the Lavender Room for some form of socializing. When his group left him, brushing it off was his way of saying they were all to sad and way to phony for him anyway. Its an excuse to run away from his loneliness and his reasoning of why he doesn't confront anyone. Holden is very disconnected from the world around him. To me, Holden is like an outcast from everyone else.
I feel like what Holden did there was something we all do secretly. We always find a way to make ourselves feel better. I completely agree with how you said that he wanted to feel generous and proud by saying that he would have "naturally" paid for them. However, I disagree with it making him seem condescending. If anything it lets the reader into the mystery of who Holden Caulfield is; he is a lonely boy trying to find himself. And in that comes a complete lack of confidence that can only be sufficed with self denial. What Holden is doing isn't necessarily a bad thing, but more of an opportunity to let the reader in.
DeleteI agree I think Holden is an outcast from society and wants to fit in with it but inside of him he thinks its Phony and chooses not to in some ways. This shows how Holden is a great analyzer and depicts certain pros and cons about society and questions them. Also, I agree that Holden is trying to find out in some way what his true identity is and how it plays a role in society.
DeleteYes I agree that this quote shows how Holden is detached from society. It also shows how while he tries to brush them off and look down on them, he actually feels sorry for them in their "sad, fancy hats". Even though he tries to be apathetic and nonchalant, he actually does care about people.
Delete“I started toying with the idea… of giving old Jane a buzz. ...but I had it all figured out.” Page 71
ReplyDeleteThis is when Holden first reaches the hotel and ponders on calling Jane. He ends up backing away from the challenge but still describes the numerous lies he would have told in order to speak with her. In class, we spoke about Holden’s impulsive behavior, however, this quote disproves the fact that Holden is a careless, hormonal teenager. The fact that within a matter of seconds, Holden had a cover story showcases that he is intelligent and picks up the behaviors of others so closely that he can be considered a psychologist. It is evident that Holden is critical of others, but he uses it to his advantage. Holden is a wallflower. He has mastered the craft of watching from the outside to later sneak into the inside. It is a trick many young adults use to find a clique or to occupy their time alone--- just something else that makes Holden such a likable, but unreliable character.
"Holdden is a wallflower". I love this so much! Its like the describing Holden's alter ego, this shy, awkward, excluded person. Its like that perfect one word to describe how holden really is on the inside. Furthermore, I agree with you on how you said how he's backing away from the challenge of calling Jane and how we discussed earlier he's always dodging this idea because he's afraid that she drastically changed. Another thing I feel is that Holden would judge someone at first glance. For example, the way he thought that Jane may have changed drastically because of going on a date with Stradlater. It's depressing because Holden actually has no clue about what happened.
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ReplyDelete“So I ended up not calling anybody. I came out of the booth, after about twenty minutes or so, and got my bags and walked over to that tunnels where the cabs are and got a cab.” (pg. 67)
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows how Holden has a tendency of “fleeing the scene” when he has nobody to support him. Holden just left “Pencey School” and he goes to the phone booth expecting someone to come into mind so he can call, shortly after he realizes that he has nobody to call because nobody will actually talk to him. Furthermore, he doesn't really know a lot of people he can talk to. I believe Holden not having anyone to call is a direct result of him being a reserved person and not really opening up to people. If Holden conversed with people about his “actually life”, and not tell continuous lies like he did to Mrs. Morrow on the train, maybe he’d have more people that knew him for who he really was. People who know you for who you are are people you can trust and people you can talk to when you need to, and thats what Holden needs right now. Additionally, this quote reveals how Holden realizes that he is not only physically alone but mentally. It takes Holden “twenty minutes or so” to realize that he has no one to call. Holden feels like nobody understands him , that nobody would understand what he's going through or why he's making the decisions he's making. Holden gets into the cab to leave the scene because he doesn't want to think about how lonely he is , he wants to go to a hotel, relax, and get his mind off things.
I completely agree with you. Holden doesn't like to actually confront anything, or open up to anyone, as you said. He will lie and hide until it's impossible for him to keep doing so. He would prefer to let everything build and build and build inside of him if it meant that he wouldn't have to legitimately deal with his problems. This is why he doesn't have anyone to talk to; he refuses to open up, and people enjoy talking to other open people. Holden feels like a normal person, but he really isn't. Normal people don't have trouble thinking of people to talk to--and if they don't have anyone to talk to, it wouldn't take them twenty minutes to figure it out. Holden wants to feel like he has people to talk to regularly, but the truth is, he doesn't, and just like every problem he has, Holden refuses to face this. He has an extreme case of denial that will take him nowhere good.
DeleteI disagree on what you said about Holden wanting to be "reserved." I believe that Holden could in fact open up to people in the way he wants to but only if he had someone to rely on. So far throughout the book we haven't met any characters that Holden could rely on. Yes, he does have friends like Ackley and Stradlater, but the way he thinks about them doesn't show that he could rely on them. With your idea, I could agree that Holden has a tendency of "fleeing the scene," because every opportunity that he has to open up to someone, he changes the subject or uses another one of his "terrific" lies. For example, when he's on the train with Ernest's mother, she asks him his name, and he replies with "Rudolf Schmidt." Or when she asks why Holden is leaving Pencey early, Holden had a chance to open up, but instead he used another one of his lies.
DeleteI totally agree with a lot of what you said Jason. I agree with your statement claiming that Holden "flees the scene" to avoid confrontation. However, I don't believe that Holden has any other choice but to be a "reserved" person. Similar to what Joanna said, Holden has never encountered anybody especially trustworthy. People have to earn a persons trust. I just don't feel that anybody has done enough to earn Holden's trust. However, I do see the side in which you're coming from. I just feel that people like Stradlater, Ackley, and even D.B. Holden's own brother have turned their backs on Holden more than Holden turning his back on them.
DeleteI fully agree with you because Holden seems to run away from his problems. He doesn't want to even call his own parents and if I was in that situation that is the first thing I will do call my parents. He seems to try and hide the fact that he actually needs help and that if he actually calls anybody that might actually want to help. He is saying that he has nobody to call but honestly he had a bunch of people he just doesn't want to call them.
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ReplyDelete“You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole life... You’d like her.” (p.75)
ReplyDeleteAs Holden was changing to go to the nightclub at his hotel in New York, he debates on whether or not to call his sister Phoebe. It was the last person he could think of calling because she was “Somebody with sense and all.”(p.75) but decided not to because he knew that his parents would pick up. As we all know so far through the book, Holden is the type of person to point out people’s individual flaws. However, I’ve noticed that when it comes down to the people he cares about, like his family and close friends, he only points out the good in them. Just like in previous chapters, Holden tells how a great brother Allie was the nicest person he had known, and says only good about Jane to Stradlater. These couple of lines stood out to me because most of the time, you would think that Holden is a boy without a heart who lies about everything because he’s a “terrific liar.” And when it comes down to the important people in his life, the people who respect him as much as he respected them, he has nothing but good things to say about them.
Clara O'Malley
ReplyDelete"The only reason I didn't do it was because I wasn't in the mood. If you're not in the mood, you can't do that stuff right."
This is what Holden thinks of after he devises an entire plan just get Jane on the phone. He says that he's not in the mood, which is the same excuse he used when talking to Jane was previously up for decision. Seeing how Holden defended his seclusion from Jane saying "I'm not in the mood" twice, really shows that the phrase is one of Holden's favorite excuses. It also shows how much he really feels for her. Jane clearly played a large role in Holden's life, when she was a part of it. He knew about her family troubles, and noticed the small things she did, because he worshiped her, in all honesty. We've learned that Holden hides from the past, and that for him, lies and excuses are the key to doing so. He calls other people phonies, when he lies to himself regularly. Jane represents everything Holden fears facing--love, and his history. Holden is going to hide from her, because he knows that she'll remind him of his feelings for her, but also other things from his past, like Allie. If Holden reconnects with Jane, he knows that his reconnection with her will bring him back to everything he avoids most.
(the quote was on page 78)
DeleteI agree with you Clara. In this passage Holden does seem to keep coming up with excuses to avoid talking to Jane as he does with most things he'd like to avoid. Addidionally, while I wouldn't say that Holden worships Jane I'd say he thinks about her a lot and she causes him certain feelings in odd ways. In the past, after Stradlater's date with Jane, Holden attacks Stradlater in fear he has done something horrible to Jane. This whole passage ties into the idea that Holden has many internal fears, a central topic we talked about in class.
Deleteoops I messed up again the quote was on 71 not 78!
DeleteAlso I completely understand what you're saying Jonah, and not only does this refer to what we discussed in class, but also Holden's overall insecurity. He really is insecure, despite the tough guy act he puts on. Deep down, he's afraid. I think that confrontation scares him the most, though, whether it's with Ernest's pretty mom or himself. He creates these strings of lies to avoid reality. He even does it with people he's not that close with, because he feels like they need the same protection from the truth he does.
"We got to the Edmont Hotel, and I checked in. I'd put on my red hunting cap when I was in the cab, just for the hell of it, but I took it off before I checked in. I didn't want to look like a screwball or something."
ReplyDeleteThis quote to me is very ironic because it really shows two opposite sides of Holden. He puts on his red hunting cap in the cab because, essentially, he is alone and the red hunting cap is a symbol of confidence and protection for him. He really doesn't care about the cab driver, he just thinks it's fun to wear. However, when he gets to the hotel, he takes the cap off because he doesn't want to be judged by other people in the hotel. Holden, in this scene, is being really hypocritical because on the outside he doesn't like to follow society's rules because he wants to be himself, but deep down he really does care about other people in society and he is afraid of being judged. Idk if that makes sense to anyone else, but this quote really helped me to see what Holden is really like in his thoughts and to see both sides of his personality.
"The first thing I did when I got off at Penn Station, I went into this phone booth. I felt like giving somebody a buzz." (66)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is the first sentences of chapter 9 after Holden gets off the train after leaving Pencey, rather abruptly in the middle of the night. I found this very interesting as up to this point i though of Holden as a very r independent character. He wasn't shy at all, but he kept to himself at times and did many things for himself. For example, he didn't tell anyone he was leaving in the middle of the night-which in my opinion - is a pretty big deal, even if you've been kicked out of your school.
This first quote clearly is saying he wants to call somebody and let them know or maybe what happened. I considered this a character twist, although minor. He ponders the thoughts of calling many people but can't decide on somebody. This was also a sad passage as it shows how really scared Holden is, he always had an excuse to not talk to each person. We discussed Holdens' lack of confidence in class and I think this has to do a lot with his lack of confidence and how he is sacred to talk to many people. He is also avoiding everyone as once again he internally contradicts himself, he wants to call somebody, but doesn't want to call anyone really.
I was also surprised by these actions, and I think it comes back to him being very lonely. He wants to call someone so badly because he feels abandoned, after getting kicked out of school, and leaving behind his only friends. The only people he has left are his parents and sister, who he can't even see for a few more days.
Delete"After I shut the door and started back to the living room, he yelled something at me, but I couldn't exactly hear him. I'm pretty sure he yelled "Good Luck!" at me. I hope not. I hope hell not. I'd never yell "Good Luck!" at anybody. It sounds terrible, when you think about it." (Page 19)
ReplyDeleteIs the glass half empty or half full? The way Holden perceives what he infers Mr. Spencer said is probably in the negative way. Throughout the book, he is more towards pessimism, but not entirely. Anyways, we all think of luck being something in out favor, however remember that luck can either be good or bad. Therefore, if you wish for good luck, it can either be good things happening or bad things. I'm guessing that that's what Holden was thinking about, the negative counterpart of Good Luck. Or, it could simply be that the reason why the phrase is said is because others think they really need it, making them think as if they can;t do things on their own and have to rely on luck. You can look at this quote in different angles and find out what you think is best.
In chapters nine and ten we get introduced to a new character named Phoebe. She in some ways is a representation of Allie to Holden. Holden describes her with red hair, very smart, nice… and has no negative thoughts to say about her to the reader. Holden also goes to this hotel to stay and meets these three girls in a bar who he dances with and likes but has a lot of criticism towards them despite that he continues to dance with them or is being “suave”. Before this happened he was just in his room in his hotel feeling left out and down. Then during the time he was with these girls emotionally he was happy and “suave”, but when they left him he became depressed again as if nothing had happened and continued on living his life and looking back at the past.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Do you think Holden criticizes people that are older than him more than people younger than him?
For example: Holden speaks well about Phoebe and Allie but not that great about his older brother D.B and his parents.
To add on to what you've said, I believe that Holden seeks companionship and love, but the criticism and bitterness he keeps in his mind often holds him back from embracing it and truly finding it, thus leading him to stay isolated and judgmental about others, as apposed to admitting he cannot achieve what he seeks . This leads me to answer your question: I think Holden criticizes people older than him, more specifically adults, and labels them as "phonies" or whatever the next word may be. Seeing as the theme for this unit is "Coming of Age and the Search for Self', it leads me to think that maybe Holden just doesn't want to grow up, so adulthood to him is a big no-no.
Delete"I wasn't crazy about talking to old Mrs. Hayes on the phone. She once told Sally I was wild. She said I was wild and that I had no direction in life."
ReplyDeleteThis shows me that he didn't like talking about himself or his future. I think he doesn't talk about it is because he isn't happy about it. I think this also relates to him flunking out of schools, he thinks that he already screwed up his future and he doesn't care anymore. He doesn't like people reminding him of himself so he tries to isolates himself from them. Not thinking about himself mixes in with all of his lies and other problems he keeps to himself causes him to feel depressed sometimes. I think if he learns to deal with his problems then he will be happier and will apply himself in school which will help with his other problems.
I totally agree Az. I think that his depression and confusion have been caused by all of this mix up in his mind. His recent search for a friend has been unsuccessful lately because of the absence of his brother and the fact that he doesn't have any true friends he can talk to about all of this stuff. He also mostly talks to us about this in his narration of the story instead of to someone in the book which I think is a problem. If he tells someone he really knows and trusts and gets thorough advice on what he's feeling, I think his depression and confusion can be resolved.
Delete"I certainly felt like talking to her on the phone. Someone with sense and all." (75)
ReplyDeleteHolden said this on page 75. I think he said this, because he felt hopeless at this point. He can't find a friend, or anyone at all that he can confide in or just talk too about his struggles. The only people that Holden seems to be able to talk to happily is his siblings. I can relate this to the world, because almost everybody at one point feels that there is only one person that can truly understand you. For some people it may be your best friend, you're parents, you're grandparents or a relative. Holden feels this way with his siblings. He doesn't know how to just call her up without everyone being suspicious, which just adds to the stress. So in this time of frustration, all Holden wants to do is get some real support and advice from his sister, Phoebe.
"I hate saying things like 'traveling incognito.' But when I'm with someone that's corny, I always act corny too." (Page 60)
ReplyDeleteHe says this when he is telling the cab driver where he wants to go.
This stood out to me because Holden clearly can't see who he really is. He spends all of his time calling other people corny and phony, without seeing that he himself can be perceived as both. Acting like something he's not is a very phony thing to do, and he does just that in this quote. Also, the cab driver could easily be thinking about how "corny" or stupid he sounds, but Holden doesn't realize that. He just thinks that this cab driver is so ridiculous that it must be rubbing off on him. This just comes back to Holden being incredibly judgmental. Instead of thinking of the good in some people, he writes them off as phonies, or as corny (which there doesn't seem to be a clear definition of). Holden really needs to look in the mirror and see his flaws before pointing out others.
I totally agree that Holden can be perceived as corny too even though he claims to be so against acting corny. It's ironic how Holden can denounce others for acting corny one minute and then act the same way. Holden seems to label being 'corny' as a bad thing but I think that really he wants to just let go and be 'corny' but he doesn't know how. He doesn't have any friends and at boarding school he isn't around very interesting people so he really doesn't have a place to act freely and be as ridiculous and 'immature' as he wants to be; that's why he takes every opportunity he gets to act 'corny' around other 'corny' people.
Delete"The only reason I didn't do it was because i wasn't in the mood. If you're not in the mood, you can't do that stuff right." (71)
ReplyDeleteAt this time in the book, Holden was in the phone booth thinking about who he should call. He came across the idea to call Jane's school to see if she would pick up and talk to him. He decided not to though because if he did and someone else answered, he would have to lie, and as he said in the book, he wasn't in the "mood" for it. This has happened before in the book. He has said that he wasn't in the "mood" for doing something. I think this shows a sort of rapid mind change in his head. This could be the result of many things such as depression as he's seeming to feel lately and confusion which we can see is what he is feeling in the phone booth. His change of mind isn't the only thing that is effected by his confusion or depression. His actions also change drastically when he is in this mood. His feelings toward people change rapidly and he acts up or horses around when he is feeling this way. For example, when he got into the fight with Stradlater, he was furious with Stradlater and was trying to fight with him, but once Stradlater beat him up and he saw the blood on his face, he didn't care much for his injury, he was more fascinated by it. These two moments aren't the only two events in which Holden has a drastic change of mind and action, and I think his teenage hormones and confusion of feelings are the cause to all of this.
I do agree with you the Holdens actions come from impulse and that he has no control over his teenage hormones... but do you think that there is more to the whole reason he is acting out on his emotions besides his teenage hormons? Maybe it has to do with that his brother died or its just in his personality? Like when he's talking about breaking all the windos in his parents garage on (pg 44) he says that "I didnt even know I was doing it" Maybe theres more to his confusion?
Delete" I was going to tell whoever answered the phone that I was her uncle... The only reason I didn't do it was because I wasn't in the mood"
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone recognize this line? This is the second time that Holden uses the excuse "I wasn't in the mood" to explain why he hadn't done something or why he doesn't communicate with Jane. I fell like Holden is afraid of something concerning Jane. Maybe he doesn't want to further damage a damaged person, with someone like Jane , Holden doesn't want to lie about things no matter how tempting. At the same time I start to question his lying ability and just how compulsive it actually is. it's suspicious how at times he is as great liar, but when he most needs it or when it will most benefit him, he is unable to. Ultimately he ruins thing for himself!
I strongly agree with this statement. I find it weird how he's able to fluently lie in random situations but not when he most needs it. It's almost as if he knows what's he's doing and rather it being an impulse it's a way to hide his true thoughts or identity. I feel that because of Holden's judge mental characteristics he's scared that people may judge him the same way he judges others. Therefore, in regards to Jane he rather not risk piling lies on what could be a serious or strong bond later on in the book.
Delete“Holden Caulfield’s my name. I should’ve given her a phony name, but I didn’t think of it…” (Pg. 73)
ReplyDeleteThis makes me think of what Holden was saying in the beginning of chapter three “I’m the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life. ” (Pg.19), also in chapter 7 when Holden was talking to Ernest Morrow’s mom. During both of these times in the book, Holden was stating that he is able to go on and on with lying. Like how Holden gave Ernest’s mom a false name and lied about her son, you notice that when he was chatting with Faith Cavendish, he was honest with giving out his information so that they would be able to hook up. The only lie Holden told Faith Cavendish was that he attends Princeton College with Birdshell to get closer to her. I seems like Holden is using Birdshell to get close to Faith.
"Hey listen," I said. "You know those ducks on that lagoon near Central Park South, that little lake? By any chance do you happen to know where they go, the ducks, when it gets all frozen over? Do you happen to know by any chance." I realized it was only one chance in a million. He turned around and looked at me like I was a madman. "What are you trying to do, bud?" he said. "Kid me?"
ReplyDeleteThis says a lot about Holden. I was trying to connect Holden to a duck. While thinking about this I realized Holden is a duck. Ducks have their little webbed feet in two worlds, the air and the water. So does Holden. Except, his feet are in the two worlds of lies and truth. this also shows how curious holden is because he has asked this simple question servile times in the book. this passage is not about ducks finding there way to a safe spot but holden finding his safe spot. he doesn't know where the ducks just as he doesn't know where to go.
I agree. I didn't really think the ducks symbolized anything before reading your idea. I almost feel when Holden is asking where the ducks go, that he is secretly asking where HE should go. Not that he wants to go where the ducks are going. He just wants to know where he should go. Where his safe spot is. (I also really liked how you presented your idea!).
Delete"'Well, the thing is, I don't want to stay at any hotels on the East Side where I might run into some acquaintances of mine. I'm traveling incognito,' I said. I hate saying corny things like 'traveling incognito,' But when I'm with somebody that's corny, I always act corny too." (79)
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote shows exactly how corny or phony Holden is and what a hypocrite he is. Holden is always walking around with an attitude of "everyone else is a phony and I'm not" but in reality, Holden is just like the rest. He feels like and tells himself that he is not influenced by the people around him and that he marches to the beat of his own drum, but this quote has just instilled more that he is a phony. Holden had every right in the world to not say "incognito" and use a different word but he chose to do use the word and even explained his reasoning for it. Holden was fully aware of himself using a "corny" word and yet he didn't stop and rethink his word choice. To me it seems like it was not on purpose and that it was just Holden was being influenced by society and speaking like he normally would - in the language of his definition of a phony.
"I should've waved a buck under the head-waiter's nose. In New York,boy, money really talks- I'm not kidding." (Pg. 77)
ReplyDeleteReading over this line a lot of different ideas about Holden came up. He brings up the idea of people being phony a lot in the past chapters so it made me wonder how this idea helped tie into that as well. Before getting to New York he makes sure to bring more money than what he may need , even going the extra mile in selling his type writer but why? Either he believed money was an outlet to get what he wanted from other people or he was just as "phony" to think money could solve most problems. In all I think Holden judges most people who use money as a tool because deep down he knows he'd be the same way if he had a lot of it.
"I put my red hunting hat on and turned the peak around, the way I liked..."
ReplyDeleteIn class today, we talked about the red hunting hat and what it symbolized. I would like to add onto a point that I didn't make in the class discussion. Red is also the color of Phoebe and Allie's hair. Perhaps the hat, to Holden, holds a connection to them, enabling him to not feel alone. It holds the memory of Allie, who we know has passed away and the memories he has shared with Phoebe. But we also know that Holden does not want to face the responsibilities of being an adult. Wearing this hat, reminds him of his childhood, when he had no responsibilities and no worries. As children are symbols of innocence, they are not held accountable for their actions because in the real world, they are still learning the wrongs and rights of life. But in that same real world, adults are held accountable for how their futures pan out and Holden does not want to be responsible for this. For example, when he doesn't want to be take accountability for his failing grades. When he wears the hat, he in turn feels like a child as he is cloaked away from reality. He creates his own world where he thinks he is equal to Allie and Phoebe's blameless life.
This is a great connection to Allie and Phoebe! I would also like to point out that we talked about how the hat gives Holden strength and confidence. Holden later goes on to say that he's the dumbest one in his family, that Allie and Phoebe and DB were always much smarter than him. I agree that Holden wants to create a world where he is equal to his siblings, but in the sense that he wants to adopt their brainpower. The red hunting hat might also give Holden the mental strength he needs in bad situations.
Delete(This also relates to when he takes off his hat in the cab, showing that perhaps he wants to be on the same low level of intelligence as the cabbie.)
"I was probably the only normal bastard in the whole place, and that isn't saying much" (pg 69)
ReplyDeleteIn class we talked a lot about how Holden is a character who contradicts himself a lot. I think in this quote you can really see this. Holden says he is the only normal person around all the people in the other rooms in the Hotel... We talked about how Holden contradicts himself all the time and he here he is doing it again. He says that he is the only normal person in the whole hotel who is normal yet he contradicts himself because earlier in the book he says that he hates being normal and he's all like anti normal. Holden see's being normal as in situations where others are strange as a good thing and in situations where everyone is normal Holden tries to be different. If you think about it all Holden is trying to do is be different then everyone else, it all boils down to Holden being different then everyone else. Holden doesnt really have any true identity he doesn't know who he is. I think this is the reason he sturggles so hard with being accepted and being happy because he doesn't know who he is. All Holden really knows is he likes to be different from everyone else. I think Holden needs to find who he is and who he wants to be, before he can be truely happy.
"They were so ignorant, and they had those sad, fancy hats on and all. And that business about getting up early to see the first show at Radio City Music Hall depressed me," (pg.75).
ReplyDeleteI thought that it was insane that Holden felt the right or even the need to insult these girls and judge them so harshly. While reading this line, I thought back to a conversation we had in class. We said that we believed that Holden was "open-minded". However, I've come to the conclusion that Holden is quite the opposite. Holden seems very one sided. If someone does something that is different to him, Holden thinks that it is ridiculous. I mean Holden is walking around New York City in a red hunting cap and he is making fun of the hats these women are wearing. Back to the point of Holden being one sided though. Holden seems to believe that everything can only be done a certain way. He insults people for doing average things. He makes fun of Ackley for having pimples when I'm sure there are many teenagers with pimples. He makes fun of the women in the hotel for going to a show at the Radio City Music Hall. What is so bad about wanting to go to Radio City while you're in New York. As I'm writing this though I'm starting to feel for Holden. He is honestly quite lonely to say the least. It seems that he is just blowing fumes. He is just expressing his anger for life through his judgment on others. And I can totally relate to this. When I'm upset, I tend to criticize every little thing that happens to be irritating me even the slightest bit. However, I just feel that Holden takes his judgments to the extreme through his repetition. He repeats the fact that the three women have horrible hats and that they're all stupid. He just takes it to the extreme I feel.
"Sex is something I don't understand. I swear to God I don't. I started toying with the idea, while I kept standing there, of giving old Jane a buzz--"(71)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because, basically Holden admits to being confused about sex and "cannot keep to the rule he wishes to adapt" He feels as though he is an outsider. He feels as if he is doing something wrong because, when he sees guys like Stradlater who has had experience and his way with lady's he feels like a minority. I think he feels that way because, he thinks that what he is doing is right (71-72 where it explains his problem) but people like Stradlater always gives him a hard time and makes fun of him for doing that. The second thing is in that quote it shows that Holded has thoughts of calling Jane at her school but it's late at night. I think Holden is an aggressive guy but doesn't take things seriously, but when it comes to Jane his whole attitude changes. Coming back to the first part of the quote where he talks about his problem of not understanding but also adding on to some parts of the chapter where he talks about girls and stuff you can tell that to him Jane is different and that's what he likes about her. For example, "You don't always have to get too sexy to get to know a girl"(76) you can also tell he likes her because earlier in the book he gets into a fight with Stradlater. When it comes to people Holden cares about he would protect them.
"The only way I could even half enjoy myself dragging her around was if I amused myself a little. So I told her I just saw Gary Cooper, the movie star, on the other side of the floor... I'd just about broken her little heart-I really had. I was sorry as hell I'd kidded her. Some people you shouldn't kid, even if they deserve it."
ReplyDeleteI think the first part of the quote is an excellent example of the manipulative side of Holden. Not only does he manipulate Marty with ease, but he seems to enjoy it. Marty isn't the only one Holden has manipulated: Mr. Spencer, Ackley, Earnest's mom, and even the bartender, when he tries to act like he was insulted by him to get alcohol. But what sets this example apart from the rest is that he does it for his own amusement, instead of to someone to do something, or to make them feel better. This was just for himself. To me, the second part of the quote tells us he acted on impulse. He regrets manipulating her and feels really bad about it. He didn't think about how his actions were going to affect her: impulsive. And finally, the last five words explain that Marty deserved to be manipulated because she can't dance.In my view, this shows how Holden feels about people who aren't up to his standards and who aren't like him: the phonies.
“That's the thing about girls. Every time they do something pretty, even if they're not much to look at, or even if they're sort of stupid, you fall in love with them, and then you never know where the hell you are. Girls. Jesus Christ" (82).
ReplyDeleteOften, I find that I am viewing Holden as an older character than he actually is. This is partially because he lies about his age in order to get his way. The other reason is because his ego is so enormous that it obstructs his narration and makes him seem more mature.
I found that this quote reminded me that Holden is only a 16 year old boy. The way he fascinates about girls seems very immature, even though he explains that he is a "sex maniac". This childishness relates to two major aspects of Holden's personality: impulsiveness and contradiction. His desire for girls seems primal and impulsive, especially on 78, when he can't ignore his need to dance with the three ladies sitting next to him. His childish obsession with women also contradicts the image he has built for us: externally, he seems like a suave, mature man, who can pick up ladies like a movie star. This quote shows that internally, he is just a boy of 16 whose hormones are a bit too out of control.
"You know those ducks in that lagoon right near Central Park South? That little lake? By any chance, do you happen to know they go, the ducks, when it gets all frozen over? Do you happen to know, by any chance?"(p.67)
ReplyDeleteTo me this line seems important because he keeps on asking that question throughout the book. It brings up questions like why does he keep asking the question and why is so important for him to find out.It reminds me of my own life because sometimes I get so curious about things that I see. Everybody always wants to find something out and for him that question is very important. He is very interested in the fact that the ducks go somewhere when the pond freezes but he doesn't know where they go. What the line is saying about Holden is that he is really a guy about the small details. He notices all the things that regular people would just pass by with thinking twice but Holden is different very different.
"Then all of a sudden, this tear plopped down on the checkerboard. She just rubbed it on the board with her finger. It just bothered me..." (88)
ReplyDeleteThis line really shocked me and struck me as surprising because it shows how Holden has multiple egos and styles about him. It shows how much of a complex and difficult person to understand. Holden really showed his sensitive side in that quote that was basically hidden inside of him. I can make a connection with these multiple egos and being a complex person to myself because sometimes I have this "I don't care what people say about me" type of mojo or ego like Holden. But, also I have a sensitive and a caring side about myself. We all have multiple personalities and are all complex to understand because of our multiple personalities that make us who we are. In conclusion I really think this quote portrays how us teenagers have complex personalities that makes us teenagers really tick. It's talking about how difficult us teenagers are to understand to our family and people outside of our families.
I agree that this line shows another side of Holden. But I was also thinking of something else after reading the your quote. I feel like this quote shows that Holden is bothered when other people get emotional. Once he sees that Jane is crying, he rushes over and tries to make her stop. In the book, he is always judging people without putting himself in their shoes. When he finally sees some share how they feel, he is bothered because he can't really judge them.
Delete"I walked all the way back to the hotel. Forty-one gorgeous blocks. I didn't do it because I felt like walking or anything. It was more because I didn't feel like getting in and out of another taxicab. Sometimes you get tired of riding in taxicabs the same way you get tired riding in elevators. All of the sudden, you have to walk, no matter how far or high up. When I was a kid, I used to walk all the way up to our apartment very frequently. Twelve stories."
ReplyDeleteThis paragraph, to me, can be seen from two perspectives: 1) Holden gets tired of doing the same thing over and over, and 2) Holden gets tired of taking the easy route. The first perspective relates to how he treats Marty in the Lavender room. He gets tired of her and lies to change the situation. However, the second perspective relates to Holden's lifestyle. Sometimes I forget that Holden is wealthy: private schools, wads of cash from rich grandmother, and owned a 90 dollar typewriter (which was expensive for that time). Throughout Holden's life he has been given more than he needs without having to work for it. Maybe he feels that he doesn't deserve these privileges, sort of like how he says “Almost every time someone gives me a present, it ends up making me sad”.
I sort of agree with what you are saying here. I do think he doesn't really want to take advantage of what he has and he does try to use other things other than his money, but for another reason. He may seem like he doesn't think he deserves all of this, but I also think that he may also not want to act like or be like the phonies he hates so much. He does act like them at times but doesn't seem to notice. If he notices then he will try his best to be something else than a phony, and I think that is the case with his money and wealth.
Delete"You don't always have to get too sexy to get to know a girl."
ReplyDeleteThis line struck me as interesting because I feel that it contradicts everything that Holden has done and said about women so far. In past chapters, he has always tried to talk to the more attractive women because of their attractiveness and then judged them on their personality. When he gets to know a woman, he usually flirts and tries to get a bit touchy too and intimate which we saw in the case with Mrs. Morrow. He seems to have a it of a thing for going for the women he would want to be sexy with and then thinks to himself about what a sexy type of guy he is and how he would like to do that with this woman, but when he's talking about Jane, he doesn't do that. In this part of the chapter, he's talking about how he andJane got to know each other and how they never got sexy in any way. This shows that he has had different feelings for Jane maybe than he has for other women in general. His feelings for Jane may be stronger or just different than his feelings for other women, so he thinks about her differently and cares about this relationship more than others.