1) What meaning can you derive from the last two chapters? What
do you learn about Holden-- are his conflicts resolved? Is there hope for Holden? What is JD
Salinger trying to say? Choose a passage that really spoke to you and
revealed some meaning/a larger understanding about Holden or the book in
general.
2) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post! Answer their questions, or pose a question of your own!
"THAT'S ALL I'm going to tell about. I could probably tell you what I did after I went home, and how I got sick and all, and what school I'm going to go to next fall, after I get out of here, but I don't feel like it. I really don't. That stuff doesn't interest me too much right now." (p213)
ReplyDeleteI am actually really upset with this ending. I thought that Holden would understand everything that he has went through and what he should do to give himself a better life. Since the beginning of the book, I wanted Holden to figure things out and learn what he wanted in his life. I'm soooooo frustrated with this! He ends his story like it's no big deal about what lies ahead for him. He doesn't show any sign that everything that he went through in the book even matters to him in what his future will be like, like a cliffhanger. I HATE CLIFFHANGERS! Anyway, I do think that since Holden has an idea of what he wants to be will play a role in what happens to him, or maybe it's just what he thought he wanted to be. For example, in our discussion in class, Molly said that her brother is 16 as well and he has no idea what he wants to be, so maybe Holden doesn't even. Maybe he just thought of what came to his head because he needed to give Phoebe an answer. Not only that, but after reading this particular paragraph I thought that maybe Holden genuinely doesn't care what's in store for him. He had his moments in the book but those were just guess's for what he might want to be or what he might want to do with his life. Another example from our discussion in class today was about what the ducks and James Castle represent to Holden every time someone is asking him what he likes or what he is going to do with his life. I thought that thinking about this stuff is an escape route for him because flying away or death is probably the only way that Holden can escape from what his future will be like when he's an adult and he isn't going anywhere in his life. Also in the quote when Holden says that he isn't interested in about what school he's going to or what his parents said, I thought that it said a lot about how Holden still has those qualities about how he doesn't really care. Which to me is confusing because he has his moments when he actually wonders about what he will become in about 5 years or 10 years. Yet he tells us that he isn' even interested. I don't even what I even mean but I guess it's what I think. I'm just soooo upset with this ending!
I'm pretty sure I didn't even answer the prompt. Sorry Ms.Kaufman but I need to do this. :(
I totally agree with what you are saying, I totally hate cliffhangers, when I read this I just stopped at the moment and thought about all of the struggles and so many mistakes Holden has done throughout his life. What was the point of this book if Holden doesn't know where he is heading, I guess maybe I would have ended this book with this same line because my life isn't practically over , and at the age of 16 your life is beginning and your decisions will be cleared out. At the same time Holden has been through so many things and what was the outcome or even a lesson that he has made. But I also disagree with you because Holden did change or created this different aspect towards life. He know who he is, and where he is coming from and what future he has in life. Referring back to chapter 25, when he went to Phoebe's school to give the letter to the principal, this letter, describes his decision, and his hope that one day he would find a job and marry a woman and teach the children how to read and write. Those are things that I never imagined Holden will think about. Since the very beginning of chapter 3 when old spencer was talking to him about his future.... Holden just said I don't know I'm not thinking about it now, but now look at what he is saying about what he wants to do in protecting children from the cliff and repeating the same mistakes he has made.
DeleteI do agree with you about how Holden going to Phoebe's school because he made a decision that would impact his entire life. However, every time that Holden has made a decision to do something with his life that might impact his future has always ended up washing away. For example, when Holden wanted to marry Sally. He couldn't do it because she said no, maybe he really would have if she said yes. Also when Phoebe said that she would go west with him. That ruined Holden's entire plan and he couldn't do what he wanted to do with his life again. So Holden has his moments when he is very concerned about his life and he is willing to take a big step so that at least he knows that he will become something in his life, but something happens, whether it be a person doesn't agree with his choice or because someone wishes they were with Holden.
DeleteI disagree with you about the ending of the book. Although it is a cliffhanger, he says that he is going back to school in the fall and he is going to try to "apply himself". I think that this home has helped him get over the things that he went through during the book and that hopefully he is ready to put it in the past, and start off at a new school. We do have to keep in mind that he still is same old Holden, and he is going to still be a careless guy, but hopefully one day he will reach his goal of becoming 'the catcher in the rye'.
DeleteI agree with Marion because Holden says is going to try to apply himself and start off at a new school."It's such a stupid question, in my opinion. I mean how do you know what you're going to do till you do it?" (pg.213) He actually wants to move on from his past instead of ignoring the future he wants to strive for the future and become ''the catcher in the rye".
DeleteI thought how he dint minded it when I called him up so late, and how he told me to come right over if I felt like it. and how he went to all that trouble giving me that advice about finding out the size of your mind and how he was the only guy that'd eve gone near that boy James Castle. And the more I thought I about it, the more depressed I got...I should've gone back to his house. maybe he was patting my head for ......"
ReplyDeleteThis passage has not only showed how Holden's perspective is changing towards people but especially with Mr. Antolini. Regarding back to the previous chapters, Mr. Antolini has been the mentor or Holden's catcher in the rye. He is preventing Holden from making so many other mistakes in his life but it can result into this "horrible fall" which can cost Holden's life or even future. I think that Mr. Antolini is this savior for Holden, and at first Holden didn't really notice how much Mr. Antolini meant towards him and the actions in which he has made towards helping or even guiding Holden into some sense in his mind. At the end of Chapter 24, Mr. Antolini was beside Holden when he was sleeping in the couch and out of nowhere he started patting his head , Holden left in an instant, his heart raced a thousand miles per hour; he just couldn't stay in this house no more with this anxious that something terrible is going to happen. He said a lie to Mr. Antolini about coming back to his house after he gets his luggage from the grand central station. Now Holden is starting to notice the true side that matters from Mr. Antolini, Does it really matter if someone pats in your head, but I guess that its about age, sometimes as teenagers we assume things so quickly about somebody but never really pay attention towards how someone helped us. That is what Holden realizes when he starts thinking about Mr. Antolini, Holden is feeling guilty towards the actions that he has made in handling this situation. why couldn't Holden just sit down and talk with Mr. Antolini, this is the thing with Holden, your no longer sure if he would stop judging people and assume things because of their appearances, you get to wonder if he is still acting immature or would he even take responsible decisions about himself. . I noticed that he is almost thinking behind the physical appearances from a person and going through his head what Mr. Antolini had done to show this weird or scary side of him. Holden needs to realize that he is actually pushing the good people from his life only because he wants to find these imperfections within people. since the very beginning of this book he ahs been so judgmental but now he is judging himself.
I think that Holden is scared when Mr. Antolini is caring for him. Up to this point the only person who has really cared for Holden was his sister. Holden is so overwhelmed by this adult attention that he leaves. Although Mr. Antolini did pay Holden with respect, I do not think that he had a positive effect on Holden's life. Mr. Antolini was a big drinker and also smokes. This makes Holden think that it is okay for him to do all of these things. Although he does these things, he does really try to "touch" Holden. He gives him something to read. Holden loves reading and writing so Mr. Antolini knows that Holden will listen to him if he writes something down.
DeleteI disagree, I believe that Holden wanted Mr. Antolini to care for him because he doesn't have anyone else in his life to act as an adult figure. That's why Holden makes up excuses for him and feels bad about leaving. I think Mr. Antolini was there to be support and to give Holden the idea that someone is there for him if he ever needs it. Mr. Antolini did have some care for Holden because he gives Holden advice and defiantly has a special interest in him but what Holden might be misjudging because he hasn't really had anyone else to help him is Mr. Antolini's intentions to help Holden.
Delete“If you want to know the truth, I don’t know what to think about it. I’m sorry I told so many people about it. About all I know is, I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice. It’s funny. Don’t ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing people.” (214)
ReplyDeleteThis was passage was bold. Finally, Holden opens up and looks within himself. He is truthful and genuine both to himself and the reader. I learn that Holden really did care about his acquaintances. He also expresses regret for the way he acted and treated everyone. He say, “I sort of miss everyone.” (214) In saying this, Holden understands that he should appreciate and learn from everyone and everything in his life. Holden finally cares! When Holden talks about his feelings, he always describes himself as “depressed.” When he describes his feeling here, he is not “typical” Holden. He does not say, “phony,” “moron,” or “corny.” Could Holden almost seem happy? Finally, the last two sentences of the book upset me. Holden was just telling us how and why he is depressed and he says, “Don’t ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing people.” Could J.D. Salinger please be a little more specific? These lines make me wonder who Holden is talking about. Could it be Ali, one of his teachers, D.B. or everyone? I turned to the next page of the book and saw no chapter 27.
I agree with you suzanna because in this chapter Holden is open with us and he is letting us know how he misses everyone even though he dosen't want to admit it because he has always be so stubborn and he never wants to admit his feelings because it makes him look weak or like everyone is going to start to think like he is letting down his guard. He admits that he misses a lot of people and it makes me think that maybe Holden is learning how to be truthful to himself like he doesn't have to lie to anyone to protect himself. In a way he kind of regrets the way he has treated the people he have met or just the people in his life like you said. This is not something Holden would say because he is always judging everyone and he is always depressed. There is like a moment of happiness opening up but then he shuts it down in the last 2 sentences with him telling us why he is so depressed again. Like seriously this is like one of those very rare moments that Holden actually has had!
DeleteWhere do I start? First off, I agree with you Neely about not seeing a Chapter 27! I agree with how Holden almost felt happy in a way. The Holden that we knew throughout this novel, I think would never say that he misses someone who went out with Jane. Anyway for me, Holden almost seemed a little better but still didn't care about what would happen next, probably because he already knows and he didn't want to share it with us, CLIFFHANGERS!!! Which I hate by the way, but it confuses me that Holden is so calm, when I'm sooooo frustrated. Just like Angie said, it's almost like he learned but doesn't show us if he really did. It's like he wants us to guess whether he went nowhere or if actually learned from his experience and is doing better. I'm pretty sure I didn't even answer whatever Neely was talking about, but it did start with my first point.
DeleteI agree with you Suzanna (Neely) Holden regrets everything he has said to everyone. Holden cares and he is happy. I think what he means by saying he misses everyone is all the about people he has discussed throughout the book. Who he like you said regrets and is appreciative of. Mr. Antolini, Stradlater, Ackley, Allie, Phoebe etc. It's way for him to move on and have a different perspective, that is rather positive.
DeleteI completely agree with you! I think Holden opened up A LOT in these two chapters. Even though he says he wishes he didn't have to talk to anyone and how he makes himself appear as really standoffish, holden still remembers and says he even MISSES the people he meets; good or bad. Whether he had a good or bad experience with someone, he still learned from it, or it affected him one way or the other. Some examples of this would be with James Castle; even though Holden barely interacted with James, his death still affected Holden and the way he looks at life as a whole. In this chapter, Holden proved to us that he cherishes very person he meets and speaks to.
Delete“If you want to know the truth, I don’t know what to think about it. I’m sorry I told so many people about it. About all I know is, I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice. It’s funny. Don’t ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing people.” (214)
ReplyDeleteIn many parts of the book we think that Holden is "finally" opening up to the reader but in the last two is when I think he actually does. Holden's conflicts are far from resolved, he is still depressed and depression isn't something you can get over in a matter of days, it will take a long period of time for him to heal and finally get out of this state of mind. Also, he is still young, he is still trying to find himself, he has made many discoveries about who he was in the duration of this book but he's only 16. He doesn't know for sure if this is who he is, that can change any day at any time. It changes for people who are teenagers to people who are adults or even older. Overall what this passage showed me was the softer side of Holden, especially when he had begun to play with his sister. Holden is known for being bitter and judgmental but his love for his sister is something that is so sweet and beautiful that makes him a new person. Love is something very hard for Holden, but it comes easily when it comes to his little sister Pheobe. Holden sees himself in Pheobe in a way, and he loves her childish innocence and the fact that she is so smart too. This really made me have hope for Holden, it showed me that he can love and that he does have a different side to him and I know in time that he will do something with his life and realize that there is more to life than drinking, smoking, and feeling sorry for yourself. The last line stood out to me the most, "Don't tell anybody anything. If you do, you'll start missing everybody." What showed me is how much Holden changed. He had a new view on the people that he had hated before, when he started missing Ackley and Stradlater and even Maurice, also it gives another reason as to why is Holden is depressed.
As teens when reading this book we expected the author to not get what being our age is like due to the book being written in the 50's and I thought the same. But as I read I was surprised that I related a lot to Holden and so did a lot of other people in the class. The book really expresses what most teens are going through nowadays. Trying to find themselves and growing up, and unfortunately; depression. Holden is a character that we all came to love and understand completely, even though he is over 6 ft with grey hair, he is still a little kid at heart. Or at least he wants to be.
"Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody." (page 214)
ReplyDeleteThis passage really stood out to me. This is the very last phrase in the book and I think that it is one of the most meaningful ones. In chapter twenty six, Holden reveals that he is writing this book in some sort of "rest home", and that he is going back to school in the fall. It is kind of ironic how this whole book Holden hates mostly everyone and everything that he ever sees or does, but when he is finished writing the book he realizes how much that these people all had an impact on him. He even says "I think I even miss that goddam Maurice.", a few chapters ago Maurice was beating Holden up! I think that this passage also represents Holden's feelings throughout the book. Holden is very afraid of rejection so he never tells anyone anything or opens up to anyone. I think that he thought he could go through his whole life with all of his feeling bottled up inside him, but when writing this book he in a way, let them out.
I agree with you. I also thought that the way he misses Maurice was weird. Your paragraph really makes me wonder what the reason was for why hes telling this story. Why did he decide to tell us his whole life story instead of the psychoanalyst that's their. I'm also wondering about why he warns you not to tell anybody anything. Does he mean that we should not think about the past because throughout the whole book he didn't want to think about the future. That passage just made me feel like I could never trust Holden, think of him as a role model, or even completely understand him.
Delete"Every time I came to the end of a block and stepped off the goddam curb, I had this feeling that I'd never get to the other side of the street." PG. 197
ReplyDeleteThis excerpt was something I had to think about for a while. Something definitely out of the ordinary Caulfield thoughts. This quote really says a lot. Holden feels as if he 'disappears' whenever he reached a curb. This may be the author trying to metaphorically say that, Holden is mentally lost whenever he hits a 'curb' or hits a point in his life where is difficult. In a latter passage, Holden refers to Allie and states that whenever he 'talks' to him, he's safe afterwards. Allie was a part of Holden which brought comfort and protection for some reasons that were unclear.
Oh and something else, I absolutely hated the ending. There was no plot twist, no change in anything! Ugh...horrible..sorry Mrs. K :(
Could Allie be Holden’s catcher in the rye? Is that why the entire time Holden is crossing the streets, he is talking to Allie in his head, and then when he reaches safety, on the other side of the street he thanks Allie, for saving him from a fall, the never ending fall that Mr.Antolini describes, the one “riding for”(pg.187), because Holden could not satisfy himself with his environment? Also, as a quick comment, I actually didn’t mind the ending because it was obvious from the beginning it was going to be a cliff hanger, I mean Holden is a teenager after all and can’t figure out his life in one chapter, or have it all change either.
DeleteI think the excerpt you chose was Holden’s absolute breaking point. Depression is depression, yes, but to what extent is it only depression? Holden’s hallucinations of Allie can, by definition, be the first signs of insanity. Hence, I agree with you when you say: “Holden is mentally lost whenever he hits a 'curb' or hits a point in his life where is difficult.” Holden does have a mentality in which he was difficulty coping with the bad things in life. Some of us are stronger than others when it comes to this. Holden isn't. He allows his depression to engulf him, which often leads to his bitter thoughts, such as suicide.
DeleteOn another note, I absolutely I disagree with you when you say the ending wasn't too good! I thought the ending of this novel was absolutely perfect. It was so genuine. The cliffhanger the author concluded this novel with leaves us with so much to think about. Moreover, I loved that Holden didn’t miraculously recover from all the bad, shitty things in his life. Problems are problems. Depression is depression. They won’t fade in the timespan of so little days. In the Catcher in the Rye, they didn’t. Holden—and us, as people—will struggle with depression and anxiety for the rest of his—our—life. J.D. Salinger captured the essence of that idea flawlessly.
i 150%agree that in holdens mind Allie is his catcher in the rye.It explanes why he is always talking to him and about and what Phoebe would do if she was in Holdens position when Allie died.Holden worries about him not being "catched" by his catcher in the rye (which is Allie) so he tries to be that for every kid he sees
Delete"That's the whole trouble. You can't ever find a nice and peaceful place, because there isn't." - Pg. 204.
ReplyDeleteWhile Holden was in the cemetery, he see's the word, "@!$# off", and this really makes him so furious. This takes me back to the author who wrote this book, J.D. Salinger, since he was in war. He might of put this from his experience. He might of put this to show what he really wants in a time. Holden has been through a lot to as a character, and this is his time of peace. It makes him furious.
"But while I was sitting down, I saw something that drove me crazy. Somebody’d written “Fuck you” on the wall. It drove me damn near crazy. I thought how Phoebe and all the other little kids would see it, and how they’d wonder what the hell it meant, and then finally some dirty kid would tell them—all cockeyed, naturally—what it meant, and how they’d all think about it and maybe even worry about it for a couple of days. I kept wanting to kill whoever’d written it. I figured it was some perverty bum that’d sneaked in the school late at night to take a leak or something and then wrote it on the wall. I kept picturing myself catching him at it, and how I’d smash his head on the stone steps till he was good and goddam dead and bloody
ReplyDeleteWhy did Holden get so mad when someone write that on the wall? I think it's because we know how much he loves kids and everyone hates it when little kids learn foul language I think that was what bothered Holden because these kids are so young and innocent and the foul language are used for more adult like or grown ups and Holden doesn't want the little kids to speak or use that word. he doesn't want it exposed to the kids because it is not a good word and Holden doesn't want kids at such a young age to obtain or know that word because a lot of grown ups use it and he hates adults. These kids have no idea what it means and it is understandable that Holden wants to beat up the person who wrote it because it is not cute when a little kid curses because they have no idea what it means they will just be throwing the word around and plus Holden doesn't want them to become like those grown ups who curse a lot for no apparent reason.
“ Somebody written “F**k you” on the wall. It drove me damn near crazy. I thought how Phoebe and all the other little kids would see it, and how they’d wonder what the hell it meant... and how they’d think about it and maybe even worry about it for a couple of days.” (pg.201)
ReplyDeleteI believe that J.D. Salinger meant for the reader to interpret this “F**k you”, and the many others Holden finds throughout his life as the bad people and things, that pass by, staining us, society, and the walls they occupy. This specific “F**k you”, found on a school stairwell upset Holden, not for the words, but for the thought of “ How Phoebe and all the other little kids would see it, and how they’d wonder what the hell it meant... and how they’d think about it and maybe even worry about it”, the two words, “F**k you”, being the cause of a loss of innocence for so many children, including Phoebe. Holden even felt the need to rub them out, even though it required big guts, and dreamed of even killing the man who wrote it, as his “catcher in the rye”, his want protect all of these kids shone through. While leaving the school building, Holden finds another “F**k you” written on the wall, yet this time can’t rub it off as it is scratched into the wall. Though he is upset that kids will also see this “F**k you”, he realizes that “Even if you had a million years... you couldn’t rub out even half the “F**k you” signs in the world,” and that you have to accept these words and the “bad” people and things, as there are to many to “rub of” and the best thing to do is just ignore them, because deep down you know that even if you confront one, five more will be waiting around the corner, and that’s life. Moreover, while walking in the Metropolitan, Holden spots another “F**k you” on the wall, in the midst of his enjoyment for one of the first times. This time though, he simply ponders whether there are any peaceful, nice places places in the world, or do we just imagine them to exist, because in that perfect place, in every place, there will be a “F**k you”, there to ruin the moment. And even in your death, these bad people and things will haunt you, and as Holden remarks jauntily, “it’ll say F**k you” on his grave, “I’m positive, in fact.” These “F**k you” are meaningful to the book and chapters, as Holden is subconsciously remarking on the fact that all the bad things and people I've met, will never stop coming, no matter if I move out west or even die, and the best thing to do is keep on walking, not minding them, not even being depressed about it, just moving on.
I agree with you. This quote made me think that Holden had gone to terms with the fact that there are things that are bad in the world. He realizes that he can’t control everything, just as he can’t erase the curse that is scratched in. He is concerned and protective of Phoebe but he also knows that she has to grow up eventually and loose her innocence. I think that was hard for Holden to understand because for so much of the book he has been trying to erase the bad from his life. He doesn’t want to be friends with bastards and avoids phonies. He has been trying so hard to have only the good in his life that he has been hurting himself in the process, by making himself so lonely and sad. Holden really wants to be all good. He doesn’t want there to be anything bad in the world because he wants people to stay innocent and never have to deal with the bad. But this quote shows how impossible that is.
Delete“Every time I’d get to the end of a block I’d make believe I was talking to my brother Allie. I’d say to him ‘Allie, don’t let me disappear. Allie, don’t let me disappear. Allie, don’t let me disappear. Please don’t.’ And then when I’d get to the other side of the street without disappearing, I’d thank him. Then it would start all over again as soon as I got to the next corner. But I kept going and all. I was sort of afraid to stop- I think-I don’t remember, to tell you the truth.” (198)
ReplyDeleteFrom this quote I gained a better understanding of the whole picture of Holden. This quote put together everything the reader has learned from the beginning of the book to the end of the book. It tells a lot about Holden. He knows he’s slipping away and that he needs help. Before it seemed like he didn’t even know that he was falling or that he needed someone else to save him. But now he realizes as he’s getting more and more depressed that he really needs help. That’s why he’s telling his brother that he needs to be saved from “disappearing”. I think disappearing is what James Castle did. Holden does not want to kill himself. Holden wants to live but he knows that he can’t if he doesn’t beg for help. This quote also revealed how much Holden relies on his dead brother. The fact that he would ask him for help instead of many other alive people demonstrates how much he trusts Allie and how much he needs him and how much his death hurt him. Maybe if Allie were alive he wouldn’t have to feel worried about “disappearing”. I also think that this quote shows a better understanding of how Holden has felt for the course of the book. He has just been getting worse and worse, from worrying about the ducks too wanting to kill himself. Holden has left little hints in this story about how bad it was getting, but he doesn’t tell anyone to help him. Holden is afraid all the time that he is going to disappear and no one will be able to save him. I also though this quote helped me understand why it was important that Holden talk about all of these seeming small moments in his life to the reader. He was trying to explain why he felt like “disappearing” and how much those moments affected him. Each moment weighed him down more and more, so that he felt like dying. I also think that where he feels the most scared of “disappearing” is in between streets. It’s almost like the space between safety zones. Maybe in Holden’s mind, childhood and adulthood are safety zones if you can get make it through being a teenager safely. This is the time when Holden feels like disappearing because there is a lot of uncertainty and a lot of chances for him too not make it safely. I also noticed at the end he tries to downplay this situation by saying he doesn’t remember. But I think Holden’s lying here to protect himself from judgment. He’s calling out for help, but he doesn’t want to seem weak. This quote really helps me get a better understanding of why the book had all of these scenes and about Holden.
"Then I started doing something else .Every time I'd get of a block Id make believe I was talking to my brother Allie.I'd say to him ,'Allie don't let me disappear. Allie don't let me disappear. Allie,don't let me disappear.Please don't let me disappear ' And then when I'd reach the other of the street with out disappearing I'd thank him"
ReplyDeleteThis quote was most likely my favorite one in the whole book because i finally understood the whole book and why was everything was said in a certain way .I think that Holden thinks that Allie was the only one who could stop him from falling in the cracks , that Allie is his "catcher in the rye" but since Allie is dead it isn't easy for him to catch Holden so Holden has to ask Allie to catch him.
I loved this book ,this was my favorite on i read during school(and i have read a lot)
THANK YOU Ms.K!!!!!!!!!!!!
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DeleteI absolutely agree with you! During our class discussion most people thought Mr. Antolini was Holden's "catcher in the rye", but no one suspected it to be Allie until this quote! Teenagers are at the stage where we become influenced easily. Besides Holden, I guess we all need someone to be our "catcher in the rye" to protect us from falling or help us recover afterwards.
DeleteI agree with both of you! I also believe it is not that he needs to ask Allie to catch hime, because Allie knows but it is something else. I think it is him asking Allie to give him one chance. I think there is only so many times someone can catch you and Holden was up to his limit. It is like you can only ask someone a certain amount of times or tell them something until they listen or just don't. So that is the only difference.
Delete"Somebody'd written "F**k you" on the wall. It damn near drove me crazy. I thought how Phoebe and the other kids would see it, and how they'd wonder what it meant, and then finally some dirty kid would tell them- all cockeyed, naturally- what it meant, and how they'd all think about it and maybe even worry about it for a couple of days." (pg.201)
ReplyDeleteGoing back to previous blog posts and what we discussed in class, this quote is an example of Holden feeling the need to protect children's innocence. For example page 173 explains Holden wanting to become the catcher in the rye, where he would catch kids from falling into adulthood;Holden would save their purity. Saying course words is sort of an adult-thing, when kids are exposed to them, they take on a new confusing concept. When I was in fifth grade, I came across a girl who had a bad potty-mouth and I was curious. Before fifth grade cursing was a sin to me, I mean I knew adults cursed. But after being exposed to that girl my age (11), I thought it wasn't bad until my teacher called my mom and I got in trouble. Holden was trying to protect Phoebe and the other kids guiltlessness from the curse on the school wall. Maybe he feels this way because no one protected his innocence; he grew up fast, living in the city. The end of the book left me unfinished and asking one question. Where was Holden all this time?
“I wonder if maybe I was wrong about thinking he was making a filthy pass at me. I wondered if maybe he just liked to pat guys on the head when they’re asleep.” Pg. 194-195.
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it kind of shows a side to Holden that you don’t really see often. This side of Holden is understanding. Although Holden never says it directly I feel like he always gives people a chance even if it’s because he’s lonely. For example when he was staring at the 3 girls at a lounge, they laughed at him. Even when the girls showed that they clearly were not interested in him, he still talked to them after calling them morons. I also feel like Holden isn’t really letting go in this quote no matter how scared he was when his favorite teacher started touching him. People, like Holden, always say that they will let go but never really do. Overall, Holden is trying to understand his favorite teacher in this quote no matter how unbelievable he was being.
"Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody" (pg. 214)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me not only because it is the last line but Holden is finally admitting to his feelings, besides depression. It shows he does care about people. It is almost like at the end of a movie when you find out the super villain actually has a heart. Well, Holden in this case, is the super villain and he has a heart. I personally did not like the ending to the book and it kind of ruined the book for me but the last lines if you think of it actually means more than I thought when I read it. I think Holden admitting to this feeling of missing something he does not like "phonies" is very important because it shows his changing of views. Something about Phoebe really changes him. It shows Holden is getting better and will "apply" himself to more than just school to his life and not other things take control. I think Holden will now take control.
i agree but i also think that the not telling anybody anything is related to depression and lying because he always hides his feelings and he has never really opened up to us. also i agree with the bad ending of the book i think he should have told us everything about what school he went to next and stuff, basically the things he said we didn't want to hear but i actually do and one question that i still have is what did holden become?
DeleteI love the analogy you used " Holden is the super villain and we find out he has a heart" That was a great analogy and never thought of it like that. I also agree that something about Phoebe did change him and it changes his ways of life. I feel like Phoebe was Holden's "catcher in the rye" and that he this made an impact in his life some how. I also agree that he's gonna apply himself more and get on the right path. I feel like Mr. Antonlio and Phoebe made a huge impact that lead him in the right path.
Delete" I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley,for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice. It's funny. Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody."(pg.214)
ReplyDeleteThis passage reveals that Holden has different perspective towards people. It is the perspective, which he has regrets and is appreciative about other people and their impacts on his life. Normally Holden would judge people by using the terms "phony", "moron", "perverts" and sometimes even "corny", but now that he regrets everything he has said and done, it was finally time for change."A lot people, especially this one psychoanayalst guy they have here keeps asking me if I'm going to apply myself when I go back to school next September. It's such a stupid question, in my opinion. I mean how do you know what you're going to do till you do it?"(pg.213). Holden will go back to school after he gets out the rest home and will become a changed man. I think Holden will have to thank Mr. Antolini and Phoebe because they kept on giving useful advice to help find out who he is. I don't understand, that he said he missed Maurice because he punched him in the gut and snapped his finger and hurt in his private. Why would he miss for that? Holden misses people in his life and it shows even though Stradlater was jerk and he dated Jane, Maurice abused him, Mr. Antolini and Phoebe gave him advice, Allie was his "Catcher in the Rye" etc. He cares about them to know, that he regrets his mistakes and wants to change himself for better. The impacts on his life were positive enough to make him change.This is definitely sign for Holden as we were discussing in the previous chapters to get out depression and to finally find his pursuit of happiness by do something he love, which is ultimately becoming the "Catcher in the Rye". Overall, this shows Holden will always to find his search his self by finding his pursuit of happiness and becoming a person people will look up to.
i agree, i feel that Holden will be a changed man due to all his past experience and the advice he was given but never really payed attention to. i think that his pursuit to happiness will help him to think positive about his future to be significant to him. maybe he will become the catcher in the rye but in order for him to achieve this he will need to block all of his negative thoughts on people and on himself as a person. i too don't understand why he would miss these people that did such horrible things to him but yet maybe you can comprehend that he says this because thanks to these people he became the person he was in my mind because all these past experiences that gave him negative thoughts which just made his pain grow. maybe his pain was his motivation to become a better person. that his failure in school gave him strength to try and open up new paths to success and happiness. maybe when he's accomplished this he can become the catcher in the rye.
Delete" I felt so damn happy all of a sudden, the way old Phoebe kept going around and around. i was damn near bawling, i felt so damn happy, if you want to know the truth. i don't know why" pg.213
ReplyDeleteThis passage really stood out to me because Holden finally revealed to the reader that he can be happy and not always have negative thoughts like he did nearly the whole entire book. this passage changed my perspective on how Phoebe can have a major impact on Holden's decsions and emotion throughout
the whole book based on the info he gave of his sister. for example, in pg. 207 he tells her "i'm not going anywhere. i changed my mind". this showed me as a reader that he truly loves his sister because the one time he actually made a decision on what he wants to do for his future that he was always lost somehow. he gave it up and decided to go home because of the reaction Phoebe had to this and maybe he couldn't bare seeing his sister turning out like him and living a depressive life which maybe why he changed his mind. but i feel that the key to his happiness his his sister's joy or seeing his sister enjoying herself. this was a very important passage because maybe it cleared all the negative thoughts of wanting to commit sucide and dying and all these negative thoughts that were flowing in through his head. and to see Holden overcome this depression with the littlest thing which was watching his sister go around and around in her blue coat. maybe a his hunting hat gave him a little joy or happiness because i feel that his hunting hat protected him at times from depression or fustration. i think there is still hope for Holden. i feel that this moment he shared with his sister that brought him happiness put him on the right track to success or a better future in school because i feel that his happiness maybe the key to his brighter future. since his depression always brought him down to a point where he didn't care where he landed in life which was why he would avoid conversation about that situation.
I agree. Phoebe has had a huge impact in helping Holden change from always feeling depressed and lonely. He sees her as this innocent girl that is very smart and also a person that can lose their innocence. I think Holden stayed because he knew that leaving would impact her greatly. I also believe that Holden was being harsh when he was telling her she couldn't go with him because he somehow felt that he was protecting her by saying she couldn't go. This quote also made me see that Holden still has low self esteem.
Delete“...I saw something that drove me crazy. Somebody’d written ‘Fuck you’ on the wall...I thought how Phoebe and all the other little kids would see it, and how they’d wonder what the hell it meant,...” (pg. 201)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me for many reason. For one, I say this as Holden really putting his mind and effort into the idea of becoming The Catcher in the Rye. By thinking about what the kids might think about what's written on the wall, Holden becomes mad and want to protect them from seeing it. This quote also stood out to me because of how Holden saw the idea of the kids seeing what was written on the wall and thinking about what it meant as something that could make them lose their innocence. I agree with him because the smallest taught can make you change. This quote also made me see a change in Holden. In the beginning of the novel he seemed careless about others. This quote shows that Holden does care about children and that he is willing to work hard to prevent them from losing their innocence. This quote also helped show that J.D. Salinger does see innocence as something that is very important because it is something that he has mentioned throughout the book. It is clear that Salinger sees innocence as something that can easily be taking away and can't be regained.
"Everybody'd think I was just a poor deaf-mute bastard and they'd leave me alone."
ReplyDelete(pg. 199)
Holden is lonely. He is so cut off from the world, he actually would like it if he could live his life alone with no conversations or really contact with people. This made me so sad, I feel as if Holden could be so happy if he tried, but he just puts in no effort and sees everything so pessimistically. But when Holden talks about love, further down in the page, "I'd meet this beautiful girl that was also deaf-mute and we'd get married." made me smile! Holden in a way is also a hopeless romantic because he wants to have a sweet relationships, but ruins it for himself by shutting people out of just closing himself of to the rest of the world. Holden is probably conflicted, he wants to find himself, but feels as if he keeps leading himself to an empty path of sadness. To Holden the world is a terrible place because he is like a lost kid who keeps going in the wrong direction. Poor Holden feels all alone, that's probably why he wanted to run away. As a teenager I believe our feelings are mixed up and sometimes exaggerated, Holden needs someone to help him balance his emotions and to show him a different way of looking at a situation. One can look at a cup half full or half empty. Holden wanting to be alone shows his depression and how he really needs to find people who care for him, as Phoebe does. In life Holden needs to learn how to take bad things and turn them around so that he can move on and not take the past with him to affect his future the way he lets Allie get make him more depressed and affect him so deeply. I think one can never truly find themselves because we are always growing as people and our thoughts and feelings are always changing.
:( R.I.P (in our memories and let our imaginations bring the story further) CITR <3
"They stuck close as hell to me, and the one that didn't talk at all practically was holding onto my sleeve."(204)
ReplyDeletethis stood out to me a lot because for basically the entire book he seemed to be really annoying and the kind of person to talk behind your back and stuff but this moment is different. Holden has always had this kind of obsession with little kids which to be honest is kinda creepy to me. but in this case he is being a leader to these kids that he doesn't even know. i mean if i was holden i would be really confused at why these kids are trusting me and also if i was the kids i would be really scared but not of the exhibit but of the person that i am basically hugging on to for dear life. this is probably different now then back then but i feel the same basic rules still apply to not talk to strangers.
"But while I was sitting down, I saw something that drove me crazy. Somebody'd written "F&*@ you" on the wall" (pg 201)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why did this drive Holden crazy ?
I think this drove Holden crazy because since it was so close to Phoebe he thought that was what was making Phoebe judging him. Maybe he thought with so many kids around that shouldn't be there ? Maybe he wanted to be the kids " catcher in the rye" again to try and protect them from all these curse words. He probably never wants Phoebe to curse because maybe she might lose her innocence and he doesn't want her to rush into being older he wants her to stay his little sister forever.
"that's the whole trouble.you can't ever find a place that's nice and peaceful, because there isn't any." Pg 204
ReplyDeletethis stood out to me because its basically Holden's way of realizing that there isn't ever going to be a peaceful place for him or anyone because there will always be something there to ruin it. i think this also has a part in his decision on not leaving and living in the woods, i think this has a role on his decision because he realizes he's just going to move and be unhappy. times are rough for him in the book but he has phoebe which makes him happy and doesn't want to lose that. he talks about how people would write f#*@ on his tombstone, which is telling us that things won't change and that he'll have to continue with whatever happens.
Richard I strongly agree with you. I also feel like Holden in a way matured over the book in a way. I think that Holden has matured since he is starting to see things the way that an adult views them so to me that’s a sign that he has finally matured and accepted that he no longer has his innocence that he had as a child and that more importantly he is no longer a child. Furthermore, he is also maturing because in my quote, Holden talks about he doesn’t want to go to school anymore and how he wants to leave and go to the West. This is a huge sign of that he has matured because even though he has taken similar decisions before this one is more drastic in a way since he no longer wants to attend school and he wants to move West and that to me sound like a decision an adult would take since its very drastic.
DeleteI agree with both of you, Holden is an adult now. I sort of feel that Holden can make this big decision because he doesn’t care what people think of him and so he doesn’t care what people think of his ideas, so he can make this decision not afraid of the outcome. Although Holden has a specific idea of where he wants to go, (west) I don’t think that he knows exactly what he wants his life to be and what he’s ready to set as his life dream.
DeleteQuote: “Finally, what I’d decided I’d do, I decided I’d go away. I decided I’d never go home again and I’d never go away to another school again. I decided I’d just see Old Phoebe and sort of say good-by to her and all, and give her back her Christmas dough, and then I’d start hitchhiking my way out West.” (Salinger 198)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really astonished me since Holden once again became the hypocrite that I disliked. I chose this quote because, Holden did what in my view is the unthinkable. Holden has decided to leave his family and everything behind I actually admire his courage to take such drastic decision but at the same time I resent him. The reason, why I resent him is because Holden went against his word which was that he wasn’t going to leave Phoebe’s side. This to me is being a hypocrite and a coward because even though he is going to say farewell to his sister he is still going to make her go through the same pain that he did when he was a child just like her. Furthermore, Holden is also being a coward because he is running from his problems and that’s what cowards do instead of being a man and facing his problem and handling it like a man since he isn’t a child anymore because like he says he is an adult because of his gray hair. In addition, Holden is being a coward because he is running of the to the west because he doesn’t have the courage to go to his parents and tell them that he got expelled from school once more and that he doesn’t want to go any more schools. Anyhow, this quote stood out to me since he is starting to act more like an adult since he is taking an adult decision, which means that Holden is finally starting to accept that fact that he isn’t a child anymore. In conclusion, I chose this quote because I felt like Holden is finally finding his true self by this action. I remember reading a few chapters ago when Mr. Antolini is telling Holden that when he feels like he found his destiny or something he really enjoys doing, he should chase that dream no matter the cost and, so I’m wondering if this is his real dream to go west and become the catcher in the rye.
I completely agree with you on the fact that Holden is being a hypocrite. At first, I did not seeit that way but then i realized, he is abomdoning her. Although it was a bit different with Allie's case, the fact that he is leaving would still have the affect on phoebe that it did on Holden with Alloe because Phoebe looks up to him. I think that is one ofthe reasons why he actaully ended up staying at the end. Maybe he realized that he was wrong...
Delete"That's the whole trouble. You can't ever find a place that's nice and peacful, because there isn't any. You may think there is, but once you get there, when you're not looking, somebody'll sneak up and write "Fuck you" right under your nose." -pg 204
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Holden says this in this kind of manner. In a way, i think he may be saying this because he feels like he is not very peaceful with himself so therefore he somewhat puts it in this theory of never being able to relax without something going wrong or someone being rude or maybe even not feeling well. But, Holden also says that he is pretty sure that when he dies, "Fuck you" will be on his tombstone and that had me thinking back to when Holden said he would not jump out window because he did not really want anyone seeing him. I feel like they connect but i am also trying to figure out exactly why it is that they connect. Some things that i think are, maybe Holden feels like someone would put something like that on his tombstone after seeing him commit suicide because they saw him at his most vulnerable state and they saw all of him, the partsthat hewas trying to hide were all revealed in his actions and maybe he feels a struggle in even commiting suicide because he feels that even when he is dead, he may not be happy or relaxed...
“Don’t ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody.” (pg. 214)
ReplyDeleteI think when Holden says this he is talking about although sometimes he talks about people in a bad way and may describe them as bad or terrible person , if it wasn’t for who they were and how they treated Holden, he may not have been who he is turning into. Like the quote in the beginning of the year. “I am a collection of everybody I’ve ever know.” Holden doesn’t realize this but if it wasn’t for the life experiences he experienced, he wouldn’t have certain thoughts about things. If he didn’t see Mr. Antoloni carrying James Castle’s body away, he may not have thought about him as he does now. On the downside, I don’t feel there is hope for Holden. He’s too quick to comparing people to past people he’s meet and doesn’t give them a chance to leave an impression on Holden. Holden is quick to judging people and that’s his major down side.
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Delete"I was damn near bawling, I felt so damn happy, if you just want to know the truth. I don't know why. It was just that she looked so damn nice, the way she kept going around and around in her blue coat and all. God, I wish you could've been there" (213)
ReplyDeleteI was on the verge of tears when I read this! I don't even know why! To be honest, when the book ended, I was sort of mad, almost, because it didn't have much closure. But then I looked back and I feel like this passage gave us more closure than anything. For the first time in the entire book, Holden is HAPPY. This hasn't happened before, he never even talked about a time where he was truly happy. --And this scene with the rain and the carousel with his younger sister was just beautiful to me. I think that it shows how much Holden changed throughout the book. This entire CHAPTER shows how much Holden changed over the course of the story. For example, Holden used to never think about the future, he said it "depressed" him. But, on page 199 he talks about building a cabin and raising his kids in the middle of nowhere. It may not be a common plan for the future, but it was the first time he'd ever said anything concerning the future. Another way that this chapter demonstrates how much Holden has changed throughout the book is on page 213 where he said he's with a psychoanalyst, which he was skeptical to trying at first.
I truly enjoyed this book and I'm glad that Ms. Kaufman had us read it!
"I thought I'd just go down, down, down and nobody'd ever see me again... Every time I'd get to the end of a block I'd make believe I was talking to my brother Allie. I'd say to him, "Allie, don't let me disappear. Allie, don't let me disappear (pg.197-198)
ReplyDelete- This stood out to me because it shows that Holden is really depressed and lonely while he thinks about future. he gets kicked out of almost every school he went to. He can't seem to figure out who he is and what his interests are. This also relates to what Mr. Antolini when he was talking about Holden leading himself into a huge fall. In this quote it looks like there is no hope for him because all he wants to do is run away from a bad situation. But in the following chapter, it eventually talks about how he went home and waited for school to start. It sounded like he was ready for a fresh start. It also shows that he doesn't want to disappear. This quote also shows that he talks to his dead brother Allie so he won't disappear so then maybe he will have another chance at making things right. So there may or may not be hope for him. most people in the world can relate to this as well because they can't really show who they are so they get depressed and want to disappear. I can also relate to this For instance, If I said something terrible in class and I feel so stupid or I just don't like anything at all and I don't know what I want to do in life and won't know what to set as my goal then I think maybe I'll want to disappear as well.
“Don’t ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody.” (Page 214)
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden makes this statement, which he has done so many times throughout the novel, I feel so confused. It frustrates me, because until today, I had no idea what he meant.
However, now that I’ve read this statement relentless times—over and over again, may I add?—I feel as if I have an idea as to what Holden message Holden is trying to convey. When Holden makes this statement, he is condemning the idea of nostalgia altogether, more so by indirectly stating that it is futile. In another words, Holden is saying that opening up—sharing memories, memories that represent you—is pointless, because it will only lead to you being depressed over the people and places present in that memory which you opened up about. Ultimately, people will die; they will go places; they will leave you. If you begin to confide in someone with your past, it’ll only lead to some sort of sentimental longing for that past. Don’t do it. Don’t tell anyone anything. If you do, “you’ll start missing everybody.”
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ReplyDeletewow that's great.
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