For tonight's blog, please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
Format:
"...." (#).
Question:
Answer:
"...." (#).
Question:
Answer:
"'Yes-Who is this?'. She was quite a little phony."
ReplyDeleteWhat does Phony really mean for Holden?
At the beginning of the story I thought that holden meant phony as fake, but with the way Holden says phony, the way he uses it, really makes me question what he means. She's not being fake by pretending not to know who's on the line-that might just be something she does to be polite. Even if someone tells me who is on the line, I always say their name in a questioning way: "'Lucas, it's your mom' 'Ok' 'Mom?". It doesn't mean she's phony. I think that Holden just uses phony as a word to describe people he's not the most fond of. Or, as we talked about in class, like a defense mechanism. He has to clarify in his head that she is phony before she hurts him. I think Holden has to stop using words like "phony", and "real", because at this point I think he too has forgotten their meaning.
I totally agree with your answer. It seems that Holden may have forgotten the actual meaning of the word, 'phony'. On the other hand, he may also be using that word because it is a habit of his. I have noticed many people using certain words out of habit; they later quickly forget the true meaning of the word. It is very normal and quite common.
DeleteI agree with your answer Lucas. I think that Holden probably heard phony once when he was younger and it kind of just stuck to his vocabulary. As Abby said, I feel like since he has used it so many times, even if he did or didn't know the true meaning its been forgotten regardless.
Delete"I had no place to go. It was only Sunday, and I couldn't go home till Wednesday- or Tuesday the soonest." (107)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is Holden worried about his parents finding out about him getting kicked out of Pencey?
Answer: Throughout the novel, Holden pretends to be utterly careless and acts as if he was tough. He tries to convey a different persona, but it rarely works. Most of his actions are transparent. This line gives us proof that he is embarrassed and disappointed in himself for getting kicked out of Pencey. Holden is even worried about his parents learning this information. This is so because he is not as tough as he would like to be. Holden is fearful of getting judged.
I strongly agree with your answer. I also think that Holden is embarrassed and disappointed in himself. I think he lies to himself saying it's just a "phase" when deep inside he's starting to realize that it isn't and that scares him. I also agree that Holden is worried about his parents finding out he was kicked out of Pencey and I also agree he's fearful of getting judged. He said on page 107 " She's very nervous. That's another reason why I hated like hell for her to know I got the ax again." I think this agrees with how you said he's worried about his parents knowing. I think he also feels bad because he knows he let her and his dad down and therefore will be judged by them.
DeleteI completely agree. I too think Holden is afraid of being judged, it's what I did my blog post on. I also think he judges people before they get the chance to judge him. Possibly in his mind everyone is out to judge him and to feel better about himself, he has to beat them to the punch so to speak.
Delete"...I hate it when somebody has cheap suitcases. It sounds terrible to say it, but I can even hate somebody, just looking at them, if they have cheap suitcases with them." (108)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it's one of the lines that shows how judgmental Holden really is. Almost every time we meet a new character Holden has something negative to say. It's almost as if he has this unconcious need to judge everyone, even himself he judges, he calls himself stupid often. Maybe he does it because he's ashamed of his low intelligence and needs to feel better. The weird thing is every time he explains a pet peeve of his, he says it's horrible or terrible. If you know it's wrong to dislike people based on one small thing, why do it? I think maybe he does it because he feels everyone will do it to him so he decides to do it first.
I strongly agree with you answer, Alana. I feel that Holden judges a lot of people and he often judges himself too. Like you said, he calls himself stupid and the "dumbest one in the family." Holden feels that everyone will judge him, so he should be able to judge others too. I also feel like Holden always has something negative to say about someone. He will say good things about people, but he always has to say something negative, like calling them "unintelligent" or a "phony."
DeleteI think that Holden really just contrasts people with his siblings. It's almost as if he thinks that they are perfect, and everyone must be like them for him to like them. But he even holds them higher than himself; saying that they are better than him. Holden is very judge mental, but I think that it is because he misses his family, and he is tired of being around people other than them.
Delete" Boy I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can"t imagine. What I did, I started talking out loud, sort of out load, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed."
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why would Holden do this?
Answer: I think Holden talks to Allie when he's depressed because it comforts him. Like he smokes when he depressed, he talks to Allie because it makes him feel better. I think that him talking to Allie is a way for him to clear his head and make him feel he has someone he can talk to that cares about him. I also think it's another way for him to still feel connected to Allie. I think he feels if Allie was still alive he would talk to him and Allie would know what to say and be able to make everything better.
I agree with you Indira and I also wonder if Holden started smoking when Allie died, maybe he was trying to replace him?
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ReplyDelete"They let me give them ten bucks as a contribution."
ReplyDeleteQuestion: If Holden said he's an atheist, why would he give ten bucks as a contribution for two nuns? (110)
Answer: In my opinion, Holden felt bad for the two nuns because "they had a beaten up straw basket" and he imagined the two nuns collecting money from people to help the poor. In chapter 14, Holden said he's an atheist and that he doesn't like the disciples. This confused me because if he's an atheist, he wouldn't give money to two nuns who are part of the church. This line also seemed interesting to me because it seems that Holden feels bad for most people. He liked the two nuns and wanted to contribute some of his "dough" when he's already running low on money. This shows us that Holden isn't careless and does care about other people.
I think another reason that Holden gave the money to the nuns was that he wanted to get attention. We know how Holden has been very lonely and desperate to have company lately. Because of this, he's been talking to almost all the people he comes across, such as the taxi drivers, the stripper Faith, and the girls and the Lavender Room. So I think he gave money to the nuns so that they would talk to him and be interested in him or thankful towards him.
DeleteI strongly agree with these ideas. However another reason I think that he wants to give money is because he wants to feel good about himself. Holden knows that by giving money he is helping those less fortunate than him, which might give him a reason to be happy. He is probably willing to do anything to cheer himself up and this is probably a way he can do it.
Delete“What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window. I probably would’ve done it, too, if I’d been sure somebody’d cover me up as soon as I landed. I didn’t want a bunch of stupid rubbernecks looking at me when I was all gory,” (104).
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden want to jump out of the window? Is he too scared too commit suicide?
I think Holden says that he would’ve committed suicide if he’d been sure somebody would cover him up, to make an excuse for the fact that he is too scared to actually end his own life. He says he feels like committing suicide, but I think that he could never bring himself to do that. The reason I think he says he wants to jump out the window in the first place, is that he is really confused about what to do with himself. Like the fish in the lake he keeps talking about, he is stuck, and doesn’t know what to do or where to go. I think he fears that he won’t ever figure out what to do and that his life will be a waste, and that’s why has these suicidal thoughts. Another reason that he doesn’t want to carry through with the suicide, is that he can’t stop thinking of Allie and Phoebe. I feel like he’s trying to cover up those reasons by saying that he won’t do it because no one would cover his body.
I agree when you say he's trapped like the fish and doesn't really know what to do with his life. I think he's scared to jump because he cares too much about the people he loves and love him back, like Phoebe and doesn't want her to go through what he went through when Allie died, Phoebe probably didn't really feel it the way that Holden did because she was young. He can't stop think about how much his life "sucks" when it doesn't. Because he has people to love him back like Phoebe.
Delete"I finally put my suitcases under my bed,instead of on the rack,so that old Slagle wouldn't get a goddamn inferior complex about it. But here's what he did. The day after I put mine under the bed, he tool them out and put them back on the rack. The reason...was because he wanted people to think my bags were his." (108)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is Holden not breaking his back to show us how much of a phony this guy is? This guy is the definition of phony.
Answer: Maybe the reason Holden is not telling us how phony the guy is, is because he feels bad and does not want to seem like a bad person by calling him out on it. Maybe also because he did not want to ruin their friendship, on pg 109 he says that he had fun with the guy and that he was funny. I think this shows how Holden is a nice person, put does not show it
"Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking sort of out loud, to Allie." (98)
ReplyDeleteWhy does talking to Allie make Holden less depressed? Why does Holden feel the need to talk to Allie when he's depressed?
I think Holden just relies on Allie for hard things in his life and hasn't completely accepted the fact that he is gone. I think the reason he can only talk to Allie when he's this depressed is because Allie is part of the reason he is so depressed and talking to him with give him some type of closure because maybe he never got to express how much Allie meant to him while he was still alive. I also think that Holden looks up to Allie even though he is his younger brother because he possesses qualities that Holden is jealous of or just admire about him. I think Allie is sort of a safe haven for Holden because he feels comfortable telling him anything/ saying anything around him because maybe he understands. Also, maybe talking to someone who isn't physically there is helpful to him because there is no one to judge him and no one to talk back to him and he can just say whatever he wants because he isn't going to get a negative response. I think Holden is just really troubled at this point in the book and talking to Allie is the only way that will make him get better.
"I mean I liked him the best in the play, old Mercutio. All those Montagues and Capulets, they're all right-especially Juliet-but Mercutio, he was-it's hard to explain" (pg.111).
ReplyDeleteWhy does the character of Mercutio stand out to Holden in the play?
Since Mercutio was an essential character in the play, Holden enjoys him having a purpose and importance in the play, but then again everyone in the play has a purpose, but the difference of Mercutio was his honorable and intelligent personality. Mercutio constantly warns Romeo of the trouble that would emerge from Romeo and Juliet's love. Mercutio also stands up for his friend, Romeo, when Tybalt is looking for a fight. This noble act is the cause of his death, which is a turning point in the novel. This highly annoys Holden, because Mercutio's death was not one of it's own fault. For Holden, Mercutio is just the most preeminent character in the play. This might remind him of his preeminent siblings, especially Phoebe, and how great she is.
“The goddam movies. They can ruin you. I’m not kidding.” (104).
ReplyDeleteWhat is Holden trying to say with this line?
I think that Holden is trying to make a point in this line about his feelings towards his life. It is important to remember the line at the beginning of the book: “If there’s one thing I hate, it’s the movies. Don’t even mention them to me.” (2), because it directly connects with this line. The lines both talk about his hatred of the movies. Based on the chapter before this line, I believe that Holden is trying to make a comparison between the movies and his real life. I believe his hatred of the movies is mostly because he is jealous of them. The movies usually end in a good way where everything works out, and I think that Holden wants his life to be like that.
I totally agree. I think that Holden really is jealous of the live that the characters have in the movies. He wishes that he can have the same lives, but he can't; however, at the same time Holden doesn't really want to have a life of a movie character because he sees them as "phonies"
DeleteI see his hatred of the movies more of how they are unrealistic. By "they ruin you," I think he means the movie ruin your perception of life. In the movies everything does work out and come out perfectly, but he knows that's not how things work out in life, well at least not for him. When he makes an idea of how things could have gone down with the issue of Maurice if he was in a movie, him acting all suave and standing up to Maurice, it just makes the idea of what really happen, nothing, sad and unrealistic.
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ReplyDelete"Every time I got started, I kept picturing old Sunny calling me a crumb-bum."(page 100)
ReplyDeleteWhy Holden keeps on picturing old Sunny calling him a crumb-bum?
I think that Holden kept on picturing old Sunny calling him a crumb-bum every time he tries to pray because it bothers him so much that he can't get over it. Also I can make a guess that every time you say something to Holden that bothers him so much, he can't get over it quickly. This also shows that Holden kind of care about what people say about him and it keeps on going through his mind.
I agree with you, Serigne. I think that even though Holden acts all tough and like he doesn't care what people say about him, he really is affected. I think that Holden is very insecure and when people say things about him, he acts like he doesn't care but on the inside he is actually hurt.
DeleteI agree with you and Grace. I fell like holden really does take things to heart and he does get upset by many things that people say about him. Maybe thats also another reason he puts this wall up is because he knows how easily he gets hurt.
Delete"Grand. If theres one word I hate, its grand. Its so phony." (#106)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden tell us that he hates the word "grand" again, and why does he use "phony" to describe it?
Possible answer: I was very confused as to why Holden once again tells us about his hate for the word grand. On page 9 he tells us almost the exact same sentence of how he hates grand. He claims that it is a phony but I think that he hates it because it reminds him of how his life is the complete opposite of grand. I think that Holden does not understand the meaning of phony, he just uses it to distract something or someone for having a connection towards him. For example in this situation he uses the word phony to give another meaning as to why he hates the word grand but in fact he just uses it to move from the fact that his life is not grand, and that he doesn't want to talk about it or completely admit it. Another possible way Holden uses phony is by using it as another word for stupid or some kind of insult. For example when he calls Sally, he calls her a little phony with no evidence of her being a phony, but he does say how he thought she was secretly stupid.
Jacob, I agree with what your saying here. I think a possible answer to your question is as we all know Holden uses the word phony throughout the whole book. He doesn't use it to compliment things, he uses it more has an insult. So, when he states that he hates the word it makes sense that he uses phony. In addition, I agree when you state that the main reason he hates the word grand is because his life is the exact opposite. A few pages before Holden stated he wanted to commit suicide so clearly his life isn’t grand. Great work.
DeleteI actually interpret it in another way, I think that Holden knows that his life is grand so if someone doesn't have things up to their standard he tends to think something of them or call them "phony". Like the suitcase incident (108). Also because of the fact that Holden has a grand life physically and not mentally. For example, his father is a lawyer meaning he is well off, but he even said it how his mother is different because of the death of Allie. I also feel that Holden judges people so often because he is just a judgmental person in general and he doesn't really take the time to get to know someone unless he feels like it but judges someone right as he sees them.
DeleteIt wasn’t that I didn’t used to take him with me when I went somewhere. I did. But that one day, I didn’t.
ReplyDelete(Page 99)
Why does Holden feel bad about not bring Allie this one day even if it was just once?
I think that Holden beats himself up over this one time that he didn’t let Allie come with him, because even if it was just one hour that he was away with his friend, it was one hour he could have spent with Allie. Obviously Holden had no idea that Allie was going to die at such a young age, but I think that when anyone dies, you immediately regret mean things you did to them because if you knew someone was going to die soon, would you be mean to them? No, you wouldn’t be mean to them, Holden knows this but what he doesn’t realize that if he was just nice to Allie all the time and always let him come along, they wouldn’t have had the same relationship that they did. I think that Holden also thinks that even when he knew Allie was sick and treated him the as always, that maybe he could’ve been nicer, but I think that Holden being himself is all that Allie would have wanted. Even if he was sick, Allie was still the same Allie that Holden knew and always would be, so Holden shouldn’t have to change himself because Allie would want to die remembering who Holden was, not what he pretended to be.
I agree that he feels bad about not spending enough time with Allie, even though he was with him every other day but this one. I think that he didn't feel bad about not letting Allie come this one time, but after he died he did. He was also saying that he talks to Allie when he's depressed, so I also think that he thinks about all the times when he wasn't with Allie, and could've been, as well.
Delete" I took their check off them, but they wouldn't let me pay it" (111-112).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it showed how two-faced Holden was. It made me think to myself why does Holden like to spend his money on everyone but himself? For example, when he was in the bar he saw the nuns and wanted to put in contribution in the basket (110). Before when he was in the hotel and Maurice and Sunny came to him to collect the 5 dollars he owed he didn't give it to them, even though he repeatedly said he had a lot of money, instead he rather get beat up and have the money stolen from him (102). Then he also volunteered to pay for their check (112). I also question why does Holden always feel the need to provoke the situation, even when he knows that he can't win? For instance, when he was fighting with Stradlater (44) and when he was fighting with Maurice (102-103). I think it's the need to have the last word or feel in power. In both situations he always says something even after the person says for him to "shut up" or when the person leaves.
"it takes you quite a while to find out whether they're really stupid or not"
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Is this a way for Holden to see who he can be more open to or with?
Answer: I think in a way this is a way to see who he can be more open or friendly with. Holden has a different meaning for "stupid" Holden calls others stupid i he dislikes them or finds them very annoying; however, he doesn't find people that he "likes" I think this because of what he says afterwards, "I always sort of think whoever I'm necking is a pretty intelligent person" I also think that when he calls people intelligent I think he's more along the lines of saying "I like that person"
“The thing is, it’s really hard to be roommates with people if they think your suitcases are much better than theirs – if yours are really good ones and theirs aren’t. You think if they’re intelligent and all, the other person, and have a good sense of humor, they don’t give a damn whose suitcases are better, but they do,” (p. 109).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why did the incident about his roommate thinking Holden’s suitcases were bourgeois affect him so much? Why did this cause him to hate others with inexpensive suitcases?
Possible answer: I don’t think that Holden actually hates inexpensive suitcases and those who own them, but that he hates that they create ways to judge others. I think he believes that being criticized because of having more money and being able to buy fancier things is a “phony” thing to be judged on. When he says, “you’d think if they’re intelligent…they don’t give a damn whose suitcases are better, but they do,” he’s explaining how people shouldn’t care whether you’re belongings are more expensive or not. The situation is also an example of how Holden has trouble fitting in and making friends. He was probably pretty hurt by Dick Slagle for judging him, and this maybe shows why Holden is quick to judge others before they can judge him, as we mentioned before.
But then again, Clara, he's sort of judging everyone as well. Throughout this entire book, I can name at least three scenes where he judged someone. Take for instance Stradlater or Ackley or Bernice, all of whom he comments on and judges nearly right away. Wouldn't you say this is hypocrisy?
Delete"I hate it if I'm eating bacon and eggs or something and somebody else is only eating toast and coffee." (110)
ReplyDeleteA question that I came up with after reading this quote is Why does he feel bad when he has more than somebody else does? Why does he feel like he owes something to them? I think that he feels that way because he feels embarrassed for them. I think he feels like he doesn't want them to feel like they are worst than him, because he knows that he's not a great student and he wants them to know that money isn't everything. He also shows this when he says "The thing is, it's really hard to be roommates with people if your suitcases are much better than theirs- if your's are really good and theirs aren't." This shows that he doesn't want to seem like he's a better person than another person, because he doesn't want to stand out and seem like he's that much greater than anybody. He also shows this when he gives those ladies with the bad suitcases 10 dollars. Since he knew they were struggling, he wanted to help them so that they didn't seem as weak/poor as they appeared to be by other people. All in all I think that Holden doesn't look down on the people with less money, but feels like he's embarrassed for them, but feels guilty at the same time, and wants to help them as much as he can.
I agree with this comment. I think besides feeling guilty about and embarrassed by people who have less than him, Holden also feels sympathetic towards them. Even though he may have more than they do, because of his loneliness and depression he understands what it feels like to be at a disadvantage and feel lesser than others. I also think that Holden giving money to the nuns and the way that he converses with them is perhaps a way for him to feel connected to others.
Delete“Finally, though, I got undressed and got in bed. I felt like praying or something, when I was in bed, but I couldn’t do it. I can’t always pray when I feel like it. In the first place, I’m sort of an atheist. I like Jesus and all, but I don’t care too much for most of the other stuff in the Bible. Take the Disciples, for instance. They annoy the hell out of me, if you want to know the truth.”—pg. 99
ReplyDeleteQuestion(s): Is this something that he just recently started feeling? Is it based off an incident? Is he saying this to relate to the reader or just to reminisce?
Answer: My best guess is that this relates to Allie’s death. We’ve established by now that all of Holden’s most emotional moments relate to Allie, and I want to add this to it. Most funerals/memorials take place in a church, and maybe when trying to pray and talk to Him was hard because Holden realized he couldn’t. The reason I don’t believe in God is because whenever I tried to pray to Him, no one answered. And it turns out that when you decide that you don’t believe in something, stuff relating to it just starts to sound funny or annoying. In my opinion, Holden’s most used line in this entire book so far is, “…if you want to know the truth…” because he actually does want to relate to other people and to know it’s not just him, as much as he would deny it.
"I gave old Sally Hayes a buzz" (105)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stands out to me because of the times where he has had an opportunity to call someone that he is close with, and he has just ignored the opportunity. When Holden had just arrived at the train station, he listed off a few people he could call, like his parents, or his sister, but he just didn't call them. Holden has always avoided contact with people, and now the first thing he does is call Sally. It makes me even more confused about how Holden wants to run his social life.
Question-
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that Holden seems to change so quickly in this book?
"Leave him alone, hey, sunny said. C'mon hey. We got the dough he owes us. Let's go. C'mon, hey. Im coming, old Maurice said. But he didn't. I mean it Maurice, hey leave him alone." (pg.103)
ReplyDeleteA question I have is why didn't Maurice leave him alone after Sunny took the 5 dollars? Why did he not just walk out of the room? I think that Maurice didn't leave the room because he would feel just sad In a way because he would just act tuff and take take the money from a kid and leave but instead he wanted to sort of be tuff so after Holden said a smart comment he punched him.
I sort of disagree with you here, Christina. For me, I feel like Maurice doesn't give a damn. He's just being a usual pimp and a jerk all in one. But I do agree with you when you said Maurice wanted to be tough because, hey, he does portray a character who acts tough to hide it. Kind of reminds me of Holden.
DeleteI agree with Uyen, Maurice is selfish and he acts like a phony (a person he's not) and But also, I feel that Maurice already knew Holden was a pushover in a way, so he took advantage of him, and maybe knew that he fibbed about his age. Maurice used Holden in a way, and I feel like he would get extremely depressed after this. Maurice reminds me of a combination of Stradlater and Ackely, in a way.
Delete"It isn't important, I know, but I hate when someone has cheap suitcases." (108)
ReplyDeleteWhy would Holden waste his time hating on somebody with a reason as little as having a cheap suitcase?
Well, my response to that question would be 1) Holden is the type of character who notices little things about everyone. He would notice one single thing about you and continue to observe it until he realizes a pattern. Or 2) Holden just doesn't have a life. I mean, before his life had a clock moving forward and on time, but now that he left Pencey, I feel as if that clock had paused. He's now roaming the streets of New York, not caring about a single thing. He points out that he has a load of dough every time he asks someone to have a drink with him and even said his dad is wealthy. So maybe that's the reason he's telling to himself that it'll be okay in the end. But he doesn't even have a job, so what will be okay? Also, I find it a little odd that Holden goes on about suitcases for one and a half page. Seriously. Holden really needs to get himself together.
" Finally, though, i got undressed and got into bed. I felt like praying or something, when i was in bed, but i couldn' t do it. I can't always pray when i feel like it. In the first place, i'm sort of an atheist."
ReplyDeleteWhy would Holden want to pray if he is an atheist?
I honestly think that Holden is doing anything to not feel alone, even if he doesn't believe that it is real. I think that Holden feels unsafe, so he thinks about praying to suppress that feeling of loneliness, and fear. In my opinion, Holden isn't as tough has he explains himself to be; and he knows it. Deep down Holden is frightened of the lonely feeling, and I can guarantee that if he can change his decision of leaving Pencey, he probably would. Holden wasn't thinking straight when he left Pencey, and i think that he is evidently regretting it ( even if he was mad at Stradlater). I think that Holden is a " in the moment" kind of guy; where he just goes with the flow, so to say.
"Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed. I keep telling him to go home and get his bike and meet me in front of Bobby Fallon's house." (p. 98)
ReplyDeleteWhy can't he move on and make the best out of things, and just find someone else to "substitute" Allie?
I feel that he is afraid of change. Allie, is his motivation to push through the depressions he's been going through. "Talking" to Allie makes him feel better and makes him stronger to get up and get through everything instead of sulking down and giving up, wishing he were dead. Also, I feel like back when everything was normal, he depended on everyone in his family too much and everyone else solved his problems for him and now he doesn't know what to do, he''s clueless. Allie and Phoebe were apart of him, and when they left that part of him, he started crumbling down, feeling alone and thinking, whats the point in life. He doesn't try that much to become like everyone else. He tries to standout, so that one day, someone like Allie, Phoebe and/or Jane will come around and scoop him up, so he can depend on them to be by his side always and never leave.