1) What meaning can you derive from the last two chapters? What do you learn about Holden-- are his conflicts resolved? Is there hope for Holden? What is JD Salinger trying to say? Choose a passage that really spoke to you and revealed some meaning/a larger understanding about Holden or the book in general.
2) Don't forget to respond to someone else's post! Answer their questions, or pose a question of your own!
"God, I wish you could've been there." (213)
ReplyDeleteFrom the last two chapters, I finally learned what makes Holden truly happy. It is seeing his loved ones in high spirits. He explains that he was damn near bawling as he watched Phoebe going round and round on the carrousel. I chose this particular passage because it exhibited how strong Holden's emotions were in that moment. In my opinion, I think his conflicts are almost resolved. He decides to return home in the end. He also mentions that he is going back to school in September. This means that he managed to resolve of a few of his problems and start over. Starting fresh is a beautiful thing. I think J.D. Salinger is trying to reveal a new side of Holden, one that is optimistic and gladly appreciates simple moments. I think the book's ending came full circle and answered all of our unanswered questions. It gives us hope for Holden's future.
I disagree with the last part about our questions being answered, we still don't know who he is talking to. But other than that I totally agree with you on the other stuff, I think he's on a good path and we can tell he's getting closer to being better all around. He has familial support and expert medical help. Plus his state of mind is better, which is the most important.
DeleteI agree with what Abby is saying, and I think it can also show the opposite of what makes Holden really happy, It can also show what makes Holden really sad. My quote for my post was: "I almost hated her. I think I hated her most because she wouldn't be in that play anymore if she went with me." page 207. Holden was extremely upset and sad about this, he actually hates himself because he made Phoebe upset (I elaborate in my blog post), at this point was the lowest that Holden felt in the whole book, this is because he did the opposite of "seeing his loved ones in high spirits", instead, he made one of his loved ones feel really bad, so he felt the opposite of truly happy, he felt very depressed.
DeleteI agree with you guys I think that Holden is starting fresh and opening up a new chapter in his life. I think the reason or the event that made Holden change was the fact that Phoebe said she will be going with to wherever he was going. I interpreted differently than you Josef, I interpreted it as Holden finally realizing that he was wanted and needed somewhere. for example, when he was leaving Pencey he didn't feel as if he would be missed and I think that in all his other schools he didn't fell that way either. Now that he knows him leaving will actually affect somebody he is willing to change and start over.
Delete"...I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice." (page 214)
ReplyDeleteThis quote appears on the last page of the book. It stands out to me because it really shows a different side of Holden that I didn't really see in the previous chapters. While I read chapters 24 and 25, I tried to find something that showed how Holden has changed from the beginning of the book. I think that throughout the book we see Holden judging many of the people that he meets or already knows. For example I think that it is crazy to think that Holden would miss Maurice, even after their whole confrontation. I think that Holden has had his "wakeup call" by going through this whole situation of being expelled. I honestly think that whenever Holden brought up the Ducks it was to find out where he was going, but in fact the journey that he really needed to find himself was this one. I don't think that Holden might not be expelled from his next school because he even said that he doesn't know how well he will do, but I think that he will be socially changed and really try harder to appreciate people more. To me, I can call Holden a dynamic character because even if he isn't completely changed from the beginning of the book, he definitely is not the same person that he was.
I agree 100% with what you’re saying, but there’s one thing I’m iffy about. I don’t think this getting expelled thing is his “wakeup call.” He’s been expelled before, repeatedly. I think it’s more about what you’re saying with the ducks—he’s just a lot more curious now to see where his life is going.
DeleteYa I agree with you that he's been expelled before so that wouldn't affect him. I meant the whole story after because it was caused by being expelled.
DeleteYeah that's more it.
DeleteI strongly agree with you here, and I actually agree with the "wakeup call" part.
DeleteYes Holden has been expelled before, but I feel like this time really had an effect on him since hes going through that age of being an adult, but also still being a teenager. Holdens finally realizing rights from wrong. He obviously knew he was wrong with being expelled before, but didnt really care. This time hes seeing how much it meant to him and how much he needed those people. As you said, he'll start to appreciate people, and maybe even life more.
“Every time I came to the end of a block and stepped off the goddamn curb, I had this feeling that I’d never get to the other side of the street. I thought I’d just go down, down, down, and nobody’d ever see me again. Boy, did it scare me. You can’t imagine. I started sweating like a bastard—my whole shirt and underwear and everything. Then I started doing something else. Every time I’d get to the end of the block, I’d make believe I was talking to my brother Allie. I’d say to him, ‘Allie, don’t let me disappear. Please, Allie.’ And then when I’d reach the other side of the street without disappearing, I’d thank him. Then it would start all over again as soon as I got to the next corner. But I kept going and all.” (pg. 197-198)
ReplyDeleteIt might not stand out to everyone else, but this is a big moment in the book in my opinion. It’s another time where Holden again is talking about how he’s going through something where he feels like he’d never get out and would end up trapped in, but instead of letting it happen and just saying, “Well, whatever,” he’s using the ghost from his past to help him get through it. He’s finally channeling Allie in a helpful way—not to reminisce, but to move on. I think that Holden’s whole transition throughout the entire book starts with him not caring or wanting to “stop at that curb,” but he’s gotten to the end where he wants to keep walking and isn’t so worried about where he’ll end up. Maybe the “catcher in the rye” statement we were talking about in class earlier could also be how he wants to save people from going where they’re not ready.
"You can't ever find a place that's nice and peaceful, because there isn't any." (Pp204)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it talks about Holden and how he wants to be happy. Holden thinks there isn't a place he can be happy or peaceful, or when you think you've found it and it's not what you first thought it was. I think he's really close to finding that special peaceful place for him. He is super happy with his sister in the end of then book and I think if he sticks with his family. In most of the book he's depressed and sad and unhappy and as he's spending time with his sister he's been feeling better. I really want Holden to have a happy place because so far his life isn't so hot and he could use the reprieve.
I agree with you that Holden is just searching for a place to be happy. Also, he describes the cabin in the woods he wants to live in as a place where he can start anew where nothing phony is aloud and it's always sunny. The carrousel he described as the same as always. It hadn't change from when he was still a kid and saw things in a more positive fashion. While the stairs, he said smelled like "someone took a leak". He just wants to find a place (his place)in the world.
DeleteI agree with both of your ideas. The only place he's truly happy is with his sister so I agree that as long as he sees her and keeps up a happy relationship with her he will have a peaceful place to be. I also agree that Holden wants to find "his place in the world" but I don't think he would have been happy in the cabin. He would be with no one and as we've seen he doesn't like it when he's lonely. The best place for him to be is with Phoebe who he loves most in the world
Delete"All the parents and mothers and everybody went over and stood right under the roof of the carrousel, so they wouldn't get soaked to the skin or anything, but I stuck around on the bench for quite a while."
ReplyDeleteThis reminded me and made me go back to the quote when he speaks of Allie's grave. Holden says "It's not too bad when the sun's out, but the sun only comes out when it feels like coming out." (p.156) about the weather in the cemetery. The sun seems to be a symbol for happiness. He hasn't been feeling too good and the weather is usually rainy, cloudy or gloomy in the story but at the end he says "I was damn near bawling, I felt so damn happy" (p.213). For once, the weather doesn't exactly fit his mood. Usually the weather also adds on to understanding how Holden is. For example, when he went through the park to go to the museum it was gloomy and the weather wasn't so hot. After passing through it, he just didn't want to go to the museum he used to love. But now, even though he's still depressed and he still has as many problems as the day before, now he doesn't mind as much. It doesn't matter if it rains. He has Phoebe and the carrousel is still the same. He's also being protected by the red hunting hat. Even if it rains, he's actually happy for once in a very long time. I feel like J.D. Salinger is explaining that you don't always have to be sad just because the world outside is dark.
Tomas Benincasa
DeleteI strongly agree. I would also like to add on to the meaning of this quote. I feel that the whole book focuses on his struggle to be unique but also have a place in society. I think that for once in the book, he isnt acting like everyone else, but he feels happy. "I was only one left in the tomb then. I sort of liked it, in a way. It was so nice and peaceful." (pp. 204) is another instance where he is alone but is still proud and happy with himself. I feel that JD Salinger had the whole boo be so miserable for Holden so that he could give the book a 'happy ending' and give Holden a sense of purpose.
I agree with you, and I think that the quote shows that Holden has grown up since the start of the book. In the beginning of the book Holden would be a bit self conscious about wearing his hunting hat in public, and he took it off before going to a hotel so he wouldn't be judged. Now he doesn't care that people see him wearing it, or that he's getting soaking wet, and I think that could also be because of Phoebe. Phoebe sort of helped Holden grow up, and when he's with her he doesn't care what people think of him like he usually does.
DeleteTomas Benincasa
ReplyDelete"I was only one left in the tomb then. I sort of liked it, in a way. It was so nice and peaceful." pp. 204
I think that this is a significant quote because once again he refers to death once again in this same worry less tone. I this quote however, I can see why he has this type of perspective on a subject as terrible as death. I think that death kind of appeals to him. I think this for one reason in particular. I think that Holden sees death as this kind of escape. In the first part of this quote, when Holden says: "I was only one left in the tomb then" I think he is trying to convey how death leaves you 'alone'. I think that this part of death appeals to him because he doesnt really need to deal with all of the people that he hates so much, people like Ackley and Stradlater and sunny, people who get on his nerves and end up hurting him. I think that he made it clear because everyone left him behind. I think that the second part of this quote. 'I sort of liked it, in a way. It was so nice and peaceful' I think he is noticing that when you die, you leave everything behind and you live in this state of tranquility.
I also think that this is the reason that he kept Mr. Antolini's note, too. I think that Mr. Antolini really helped him see that death is and will never bee as perfect as Holden thinks it is. I think that Holden would have thrown out the card if didnt truely care about what it said.
I kind of disagree with you. I agree with you on your idea about Mr. Antolini's note, but I disagree with your claim of Holden thinking death is appealing. Your evidence with your claim is strong, but I remember in the book that Holden was afraid of dying of pneumonia (155) and I don't think he would say that if he really thought death was appealing. Despite the situation of his death, he probably wouldn't care how he died if that was his perspective on death.
Delete"I was damn near bawling, I felt so damn happy, if you want to know the truth. I don't know why. It was just that she looked so damn nice, the way she kept going around and around, in her blue coat and all. God, I wish you could've been there," (213).
ReplyDeleteI think this passage shows us just how much Phoebe means to Holden. Throughout the book, we've seen how Holden is always thinking about Phoebe. He compared other kids to her, and he snuck into his house just to see her and talk to her. Now when he is about to leave New York and start a new life, he wants to see her before he goes. And when he sees how distraught she gets because he doesn't want her to come, he changed his mind. Phoebe changed his mind just by crying and asking to go with him. When he sees her riding the carrousel, I think he realises that he could never have left her here, and that he can't live without her. In these last two chapters I think we learn that Phoebe is the only person that really understands Holden, and that there is hope for Holden, because of Phoebe.
I completely agree with you. This quote is completely showing how much Holden loves Phoebe and it shows how much she truly means to him. This quote also shows how cute and genuine their relationship is and they both just help each other so much. Phoebe helps Holden with his depression and Holden helps Phoebe with just giving her advice on life and being her catcher in the rye.
DeleteI agree with you both, I think that Holden doesn't want to leave because he feels like by leaving her, it might even be like Allie leaving him. He knows how it feels to lose a sibling and doesn't ever want that to happen to her or anyone else ever again. Also because him and Phoebe have such a good relationship that why would he ever want to leave her, she is really the only person that understands him.
Delete"I almost hated her. I think I hated her most because she wouldn't be in that play anymore if she went with me." page 207
ReplyDeleteI found this quote shocking, this quote almost made me give up on Holden because he spent the whole book telling us how amazing his sister is and how much he loves her, and then he says he hates her, I actuall y thought that this was going to lead to a ver slippery slope of depression for Holden because Phoebe is one of the only things that makes hime happy in his life, and if he hates her, then I felt like he's actually have nothing, so this quote scared me a bit. Also if you look at the quote and the way it is worded, Holden says "I hated her most because she wouldn't be in that play anymore if she went with me." Notice how hes says he hated her because of something that he did to make her sad. This made me think that Holden did't really mean that he "hated" Phoebe, I think that he hated himself for making her feel bad. (I give evidence to support this in my comment on Abby's post). What do you think?
I totally disagree with you, Josef. Holden, like many other times in the book, is putting up a wall/front. Having Holden as the narrator of the story has its drawbacks, because the reader is put into a situation where the story becomes biased based on the narrators opinion on the story. So, when you hear Holden's thoughts, you get the idea that Holden really hates Phoebe at the moment, but since Holden as the narrator is a biased source and empathizes with story Holden's front, that he chooses to state that he actually hates Phoebe, when he doesn't. In reality, Holden still loves Phoebe but is worried for her if she ever decides to follow Holden to run away to Colorado, and makes up the excuse that she will miss her play because of it.
DeleteI completely agree with Adrian on this one. What he said about Holden putting up a wall/front and how he doesn't actually hate Phoebe is true. Even though Holden said he hates Phoebe, he just said at that moment because he was frustrated and angry. Holden is very biased, as Adrian mentioned, and Holden saying that isn't very shocking, even though he's saying it to the one person he likes the most. After this incident, Holden tries to comfort her and cheer her up, so he doesn't hate her. Holden actually loves Phoebe and didn't want her to miss out on the play that she was looking forward to for a very long time, just because he said he was running away.
Delete"...I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice.Its funny. Don't tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody."(page 214)
ReplyDeleteFirst, i would like to state a few things. This was the most anti climatic and unresolved ending to a story I have ever had the "pleasure" to encounter. it feels like the book out of its entirety was just plucked out of an even bigger story, one that has falling action and an ACTUAL conclusion. Furthermore, the ending sentence, which i have quoted above, had been the most confusing sentence in the whole book. It not only raised more questions than it answered, but its very hard to believe that after writing such an intricately designed and well written book like this, that he would write this sentence and stand up screaming "IM FINISHED". I find it kind of baffling and revolutionary that it seems to crazy for an author to do, but kinds of sending off a message when it comes to the issue of coming of age. Without the many questions ultimately solving the story and bringing it to a resolved stop, the story seems to keep on going, to live on. This idea mirrors the real life situations of many teens who are coming of age. There problems usually follow them through life and end up taking these issues to the grave, and the fact that this story lives on and proceeds, we get the impression that Holden is still facing these problems, like the many other teens who have fallen from the rye. I cant say that I necessarily took much of a meaning away from these last two chapters than i did in the books entirety. In a way, ithe last two chapters were, in a sense, to conclude the books storytelling, and to get a perspective on the speaker in the story. We still dont know how,why and to whom Holden might be talking about or how this benefits the story, but in the end, the speaker concludes his story telling with the same old attitude and informal conversation that the main character in the book did. I did enjoy the last two chapters, but as a concluding statements for all the important lessons, not as a new lesson entirely. Im not sure if there is hope for Holden. We might not ever know where our anti hero have ended up. Depending on his idea of interpretation on becoming this catcher in the rye and whether or not he reached that goal are two completely different stories. He could've become a person who works with kids, a Unicef volunteer or even a literal catcher in the rye, but we may never know. Though, i wouldn't bet on the idea that Holden actually became what he wanted to be when he grows up, alot of people change, and the circumstances that Holden might face in the future would have him prioritize more things than his dreams. Im not really sure what JD Salinger was really saying with these last two paragraphs. I feel like, in a sense, he is trying to kind of climax Holden's confrontations with all of these ideas and parts of him that he's been repenting for the entire span of the book. Evidence of this is when Holden is constantly asking Allie to forgive him whenever he crosses the street, and then thank him, over and over and over again. But, then it quickly shuts it off and keeps the plot going , in a sense, in the last chapter. JD Salinger was trying to keep these problems alive in the book,like explained earlier.Finally, I chose this passage because it not only ended the book, but it spoke meaning and rose many ideas on the last few mentions of the story. Why does Holden choose to mention Ackley,Maurice,and Stradlater? What does he mean when he says he miss them? and what does he mean tell everybody what ? Im really confused by these last few peices of text and would like to hear your opinions and interpretations before we go to class tomorrow.
"I felt so damn happy all of a sudden, the way Old Phoebe kept going around and around. I was damn near bawling. I felt so damn happy, if you want to know the truth. I don't know why. It was just that she looked so damn nice, the way she kept going around and around, in her blue coat and all. God, I wish you could've been there." (213)
ReplyDeleteIn this quote, it reveals Holden's true emotions and how he wanted the audience to see what he saw that day. J.D. Salinger wants us to believe that we're actually in this scene with Holden. He was very happy that Phoebe is enjoying herself on the carrousel. It shows us how much Phoebe means to Holden. When Holden said she couldn't run away with him, Phoebe started to cry and Holden actually changed his mind and decided to go home. He always compared her to other kids and even snuck into his house just to see her. Holden also wanted to see Phoebe before he started his new life and it shows how much he loves her and cares for her. Holden is feeling so happy in this scene, he's about to cry. He realizes that he can't leave Phoebe and he can't live without her. Phoebe being happy on the carrousel shows him that she is very happy with him and will always be if he's around. He considers going back home with her and telling his parents everything. This is a big decision for Holden to make because throughout the whole book, Holden wouldn't go back home and Phoebe crying and getting upset, makes him want to go home. Maybe he realized that it was time to tell his parents everything and start a new life with his family.
"But while I was sitting down, I saw something that drove me crazy. Somebody'd written "Fuck you" on the wall. It drove me damn near crazy. I thought how Phoebe and all the other little kids would see it, and how they'd wonder what the hell it meant, and then finally some dirty kid would tell them--all cockeyed, naturally--what it meant, and how they'd all think about it and maybe even worry about it for a couple of days." (201)
ReplyDeleteWhy does someone writing "fuck you" on the wall make Holden so upset?
The reason this makes Holden so upset because he sees it as the beginning to the children who go to that school loosing their innocence. This whole entire book has been based on the fact that Holden doesn't want to grow up, and how he loves kids because of how ignorant and innocent they are. This moment in the book is especially essential to that because it shows how much growing up and loosing all this innocence makes him mad. I also think him trying to erase it shows how he's sort of being the catcher in the rye because he's keeping their innocence just a little bit longer.
I could not agree with you more. At first I didn't know where you where going, but I would never had thought about it like that. I think you're spot on, and I really am still shocked because it really makes sense now. I knew before he wouldn't want Phoebe to know because he talks about it, but I never thought about it like that.
DeleteI completely agree with you, when Holden sees that he thinks of all the little kids minds that will be distorted and their innocence will be lost after they are told what that means.
DeleteFrom reading the last two chapters I have deduced what Holden was "searching" for the whole time. On page 206 Phoebe says, " 'I'm going with you. Can I? Okay?'." I was able to tell from this quote that Holden all along was just looking for someone to want him to stay or go with. For example, later on in the book Holden tells her she can't come and she is going to miss the play, but when they get to the zoo she asks him, "...' Are you really going home afterwards?' " and he replies " ' Yeah. ' " I think in that period from the museum to the zoo Holden realized that his leaving for the first time would really affect someone and that somebody would actually care and or go with him, making him realize all he needed was to go home and feel the love and comfort of his family. I think that J.D Salinger was trying to say that when you're you feeling lost and lonely or depressed go home and home is not where you grow up or live, when it should be, but where you go and you feel safe, secure, love, comfort, and can be who you are with no one to really judge you at all.
ReplyDeleteI think that the ending of Catcher in the Rye is perfect. Throughout the whole book, Holden is building and building towards a climax, but there isn't really one. I think that it's an ending that foreshadows the future. It has a very cliche ending of "Will I do better next time? I don't know, and won't until I actually do whatever I'll," but since the book is from the early 50s, I think Salinger is probably the first writer to have used that type of ending. When Holden says he felt so happy he could cry, all of his conflicts begin to solve themselves. He hasn't made some dramatic change. He hasn't become a different person overnight, because change doesn't happen like that. Change is something that grows just as slow as a person does. It grows with a person, and is gradual. Holden thought that he needed to be alone, away from people, but when he's with Phoebe I think he realizes that he wants to be with the people he loves.
ReplyDeleteI think that what JD Salinger was trying to say no longer matters because, in the end, he receded to his "compound" away from people, totally alone, in New Hampshire. He ran away from everything in the end, unlike what Holden does. When he was writing this I believe he was trying to say you should enjoy life for what you have, not be bitter about what other people have. He shouldn't feel bad for anyone that he doesn't know, or call everyone he sees phony. I don't think any one person can be defined by a single word, or judgement. And I think Holden realizes that when he's happy, with Phoebe. Life's not about everyone else around you, everyone you can judge to protect yourself, it's about you and everyone that's in your life.
I personally disagree with you Lucus. The ending could of been so much better, but it was sort of a bust. Holden maybe could of went somewhere else (outside of NY), and become a teacher, or a social worker; a real life "catcher in the rye". Maybe he did become a teacher, or something of that sort, but I feel like the ending could or been more dramatic.
Delete"It was so nice and peaceful. Then, all of a sudden, you would never guess what I saw on the wall. Another "fuck you". It was written with a red crayon or something, right under the glass part of the wall, under the stones. That's the whole trouble. You can't ever find a place that's nice and peaceful, because there isn't any. You may think there is, but once you get there, when you're not looking, somebody will sneak up and write "fuck you" write underneath your nose."
ReplyDeleteI don't think Holden meant that last line in the quote in a literal sense, but more of a metaphorical sense. Like no matter where you go, there will always be someone or something messing it up for you and it will ruin your day and it's quite depressing. The trouble with Holden, though, is that he sees everything in a very sad and pessimistic way. What if that "fuck you" was a joke and something a person did to lift up someone else's mood? Or like how he thinks people laughing at night in the city is depressing, but for someone else, it may very well be the opposite and that they enjoy the sound of laughter. I guess that's why I kind of put him in the concluded state of depression. I mean, I don't know if he's actually depress. But if you watch how his views on people and life as the story progresses, you can see how he starts to hate it even more and more. Maybe because he doesn't really have anything much to look forward to except Phoebe and little kids? The only thing that he doesn't look at in a very sad way is probably Phoebe. He was even so amazed and astonished by how happy and how much of a child she looked on that carousel ride.
"I'd make believe I was talking to my brother Allie." (198).
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this I was not surprised at all the Holden resorts to talking to someone who is dead, who is not there. This tells me that Holden has been alone to long and has held in who he is for to long and that he has hurt himself and that he has resorted to talking to Allie who has been dead for a long time, showing how Holden is broken and tired of living alone and being alone and being cynical and judgmental and holding back his feelings.
Yes I would have to agree with you on that because, this whole book Holden has been cynical and alone. I think that anyone that goes through that gets tired sooner or later of being like that, at least I would. I mean I couldn't imagine living my whole life like that. Sometimes change is good especially in this instance.
DeleteI have to disagree with both of you. Yes, it's true that Holden feels alone throughout the book. And yes, Holden talks to his brother Allie many times in the book. However, I don't believe the two things are related. Holden talks to Allie to comfort himself when he is feeling bad, either because of hormones or because he is feeling depressed thinking about him.
DeleteI agree with Hugo,I think that Holden was just scared of the fall and need a person either a family member he loved a lot or someone close to him. I think that the fall was a metaphor so he needed someone close to help him get passed the problem, and that person was Allie.
Delete" Then all of a sudden, something very spooky started happening. Every time I came to the end of a block and stepped off the goddamn curb, I had this feeling that I’d never get to the other side of the street. I thought I’d just go down, down, down, and nobody’d ever see me again. Boy, did it scare me. You can’t imagine. I started sweating like a bastard—my whole shirt and underwear and everything." (197)
ReplyDeleteThis quote was extremely important because it showed to me the lowest point of his depression. Holden was so alone and so depressed he had irrational fears of him falling down and never stopping. This to me is a metaphor of him saying he doesn't mean anything and if he were to disappear he'd be all alone and no one would care. I also think this shows how he feels he has no future ahead of him and he feels like he's going nowhere. The only thing that helps him stop feeling this way is talking to Allie. I don't think Holden's problems with depression or Allie's death will ever be resolved but Holden used talking to Allie in a healthier way to cope with his fears than if he had went to a bar or thrown himself out a window.
This line definitely shows that what Mr.Antolini told Holden about his big fall has stuck with him, and though he may be denying it, he is scared that it may be true. Everything that Holden has gone through has basically lead up to this low point in his life. He is suffering from extreme anxiety, and he is extremely depressed. You could be right that this is a metaphor for the fact that if he were to disappear no one would care, but i see it more as the fat that he is not sure if he would care if he disappeared. Although the thought does seem to scare him, quite a few times he has said suicidal things.
Delete“Don’t ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody,” (p. 214).
ReplyDeleteThis quote, which is the last two lines of the entire book, really stood out to me. Throughout the book, Holden has been very cynical. He always distances himself from people and remains very closed off, not talking to others and viewing them as phony. In chapter 25, he even says he wants to move out West, where he’d “pretend [he] was one of those deaf-mutes. That way [he] wouldn’t have to have any goddam conversations with anybody,” (p. 129). Clearly, in this part of the book Holden wants to be completely cut off from other people. However, I think that the book ends on a slightly different note. Even though Holden says, “don’t ever tell anybody anything,” which still follows the idea of Holden distancing himself from others, the last line of the book is “If you do, you start missing everybody,” which shows a more open side to him. Holden is admitting that he misses people, which is much more open than wanting to go into the woods and never talk to anyone again. I don’t think that Holden is suddenly much more optimistic and happy or that his problems are solved - he still is unsure of whether he will apply himself in school - but I think that has lost some of his cynicism and become more caring to others around him.
I agree that he has changed a lot from where he started. I think that he is making a sarcastic reference, saying don't do this, because maybe you'll end up like me. I think that he wants us to think that he hasn't changed from the beginning of the book by saying this, but we know that in the past week he has changed his views on relationships entirely
Delete"It described how you should look, your face, and eyes and all, if your hormones were in god shape, and I didn't look that way at all. I looked exactly like the guy in the article with the lousy hormones. So I started getting worried about lousy hormones." (195)
ReplyDeleteI think the end of the Catcher and the Rye, was very well written. I think that it showed all of the aspects that needed to be cleared up about Holden's personality and attitude towards a lot of things. In this specific quote, it's showing Holdens expeirnce reading a magizine in teh waiting room of the station. I think that this quotes shows that Holden is actually self conscience about himslef. All throughout the book he's been saying that he doesn't care what people think of him,a nd that he loves the way he is, but I think actually, that he does care about the way he looks. In the line "I looked exactly like the guy in the article with the lousy hormones," he feels like he should be better, and he realizes that he feels poorly about his features, and personality. I think that overall this shows that Holden actually cares about what people think of him, and that he actually cares about himself.
I agree with your view with the quote. when reading this I saw this moment as a reality check for Holden. Holden throughout the novel is very picky and sees flaws in everybody, but not really in himself. When having that true time to himself, I think that he realizes the actions he has been taking, to see how he got to the point that he is now.
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Delete"That's the whole trouble. You can't ever find a place that's nice and peaceful, because there isn't any. You may think there is, but once you get there, when you're not looking, somebody'll sneak up and write "Fuck you" right under your nose." (pp. 204)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because i think more than it shows Holden's problem with graffiti, it shows how depressed he is, and the idea that whenever he gets to a happy or peaceful point in his life, someone is there to pull the rug from under his feet and send him off the cliff again. This is very dangerous thinking because we have already seen that Holden is very depressed, but has also seemed like he puts up walls, although he is now admitting that he really lets people get to him. This means that every incident we've seen, like when the fencing team ostracized him, has really effected him, even though he pretends it doesn't. The way Holden treats others has lead to Holden getting a lot of abusive treatment, and if he has let all of that get to him, he must be in an even worse state than he lets on.
"I felt so happy, if you want to know the truth. I don't know why. It was just that she looked so damn nice, the way she kept going around and around, in her blue coat and all. God, I wish you could've been there." (213).
ReplyDeleteFor me, this final passage solves the biggest mystery throughout the entire book. Who is Holden talking too? Obviously, this book is in second person, because Holden keeps saying "you" throughout the book, indicating that he is talking to someone. I believe that someone is Allie. There are several reasons why I think this. First of all, in this last passage Holden is indicating that he wishes "you" could've been there. In this moment he is saying that he is extremely happy (for once) while he is watching Phoebe go around the carousel in her blue coat. I think although he is extremely blissful in this moment, he still remembers how Allie is dead. This is why he says: "God, I wish you could've been there." because he is thinking of him and wishes he was still alive. The second reason I think Holden is talking to Allie is because Holden has been talking to Allie throughout the entire book! He even says it a few times. For example near the end of the book on page 198, Holden says he is talking to Allie to try and comfort him as he is panicking. "Allie, don't let me disappear. Allie, don't let me disappear." This shows that Holden has talked directly to Allie several times in the book. If I happen to be wrong with this educated guess, the person who Holden is talking to has to be someone he really, really cares about because he is more open to this "you" than even Phoebe! He tells this person everything about possibly his worse, and yet most interesting, life experience (although he does lie a time or two). He talks about his extensive use of alcohol, his sex desires, what he truly thinks of everyone and everything, what he precisely experiences in the exact moment he is living in, and most importantly, his true feelings and emotions. Whoever he is telling this to has to be someone he trusts to keep to themselves. And what better person to trust than a dead sibling?
I agree with you on that. He always used this "you". Yes what better peroson to trust than a dead sibling . And also i have notice that he talks about these events afther he dies.
DeleteOn Page 214, "Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody."
ReplyDeleteThe ending to this book stood out to me in a way I can't really describe. I mean most books I read the endings are terrible and I don't even bother reading some of the endings they are so bad. This is basically saying people you never talk to, you aren't going to miss them, but if talk to someone even if you absolutely hate them you will still miss them. I would have to agree with Holden here you're not going to miss someone you have never missed. On the end if you have met someone and you don't see them again even if you hate them, I can't exactly explain why but, I know you do still miss them even if you hate that person. Overall I thought the book was pretty good, when I started the book I was like "oh no not another one of these books." I'm glad I continued to read the book because I turned out really liking it.
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ReplyDelete“That’s the whole trouble. You can never find a place that’s nice and peaceful, because there isn’t any. You may think there is, but once you get there, when you’re not looking, somebody’ll sneak up and write “Fuck you” right under your nose.” (page 204)
ReplyDeleteI think that these lines definitely have an underlying mean as to what Holden is trying to say. I don’t think that Holden means this literally, and that people actually sneak up and write that, but more that whenever he thinks that something is going good something bad comes out of no where and messes it up. I think that this is very significant to Holden’s character, because it shows how he isn’t just depressed all the time and that he wishes he could be happy . Lots of time he begins to feel happy again, but something most of the time seems to get in the way and that he doesn’t like this. He doesn’t like feeling depressed and although he doesn’t seem to do anything about it, it is because he knows that s soon as something good happens, something bad will only accompany it.
I agree with you, and I also think that this quote has to do with the loss of innocence. Earlier, when Holden first sees the graffiti on the wall, he is angry that all the little kids would see it and think and worry about it. I feel that Holden thinks seeing this will expose the kids to the inappropriate adult world, making them lose a part of their innocence. So, when he says, “You can never find a place that’s nice and peaceful, because there isn’t any. You make think there is, but once you get there, when you’re not looking, somebody’ll sneak up and write “Fuck you” right under your nose,” he could also mean that it’s impossible to stay a kid forever, and that even if you think you can, ‘when you’re not looking’, your innocence and childhood will be taken away.
Delete" If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the "Fuck you" signs it the world. It's impossible." Page 202
ReplyDeleteI think that this really shows how much Holden cares about children. He doesn't want them to see profanity while they are in school, setting themselves up for a bright future. He wants to preserve their childhood innocence, and not become impure at such a primitive age. This can also tie in with his whole "Catcher in the rye" dream; since he wants to keep children from going down the wrong path, and becoming adults. He also doesn't want his sister to see it. While he was in the museum, he saw another "fuck you" sign, and he explains how there is nowhere to be at peace. This explains why he would want to be with children in the rye, because it is a peaceful place. As for the ending, I thought that it could of went a lot different. Holden could of actually left, and do something similar to being a "Catcher in the rye". He could of became a teacher, or a social worker, but the ending to me wasn't that good.
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Delete"Every time I came to the end of the block and stepped off the goddamn curb, I had the feeling I would never make it to the other side of the street. I thought I'd just go down, down, down, and nobody'd ever see me again." (Page 197)
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote revealed a lot about Holden to me. I think that holden uses this quote as a metaphor. Holden falling off the curb may mean or represent Holden getting having a rough time with school then getting kicked out. Then he said he think he never make it to the end of the street and no one would see him again, I think that might represent a fall that he might have take if he didn't sort of pull his act together and then no one would see him again might say he could have wanted to die because of this like there was no point to living because life was so had because of the fall which was the issue. But on the next page he says that to stop the fall of stepping off the curb he would think of Allie. I think this says that Family and maybe the ones close to him can help him stop the fall he might take and help him get his stuff in line so he can accomplish what he want to do in life and how he can do it with out him putting his walls up and being scared.
I actually wanted to do this quote, so I picked one that was similar in a way. It relates to a saying that a lot of people say, if you want to progress you should take 2 steps forward, and another 2 steps forward, rather than taking 1 step back. He does believe he has potential to grow and get out of this, but he is scared of change.
Delete"I didn't care what kind of job it was, though. Just so people didn't know me and I didn't know anybody. I thought what I'd do was I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." (pg.198)
ReplyDeleteWhile reading this passage, it got me thinking about again, how Holden changes his views constantly about what he wants to do with his life, according to what is going on with him. In the past chapters, he reveals that he wants to be the catcher in the rye. for me I believed that this was because he wanted to help other go through what he is currently going through, the change of a kid to an adult, and just power through it. now when reading this, he now doesn't want to due much, he lowers his expectations for himself, and doesn't see what he can become. This might be just because he is in a bad mood, and he is tired, or it can also have to do with the fact that he just lost his motivation and drive that he was getting before. Now he doesn't have Phoebe to make him scream out his passions. Now he is all alone in the middle in the night with his mind not having anything more to think about. I think this really states the importance of the atmosphere he is in and the people that effect him one way or another.
I felt so damn happy all of a sudden, the way old Phoebe kept going around and around .I was damn near bawling , I felt so damn happy, if you want to know the truth. (213)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because i think this show how something can finally make him happy . Well we always knew Phoebe made him happy , but this really show how he really cared about how Phoebe , and how he really didn't go away just because she want to go to. He had this crazy ideas about going west and finding a job , but he thought about how Phoebe feel .Also he got soaked just to see his little sister goes around and around. This made him so happy he really didn't care about it .I do think his conflict is resolved because he finally found something he like , yes there hope for Holden because like he says “ how can you know what you going to do till you do it “.
"Every time I'd get to the end of a block I'd make believe I was talking to my brother Allie. I'd say to him,"Allie don't let me disappear..." (p. 198)
ReplyDeleteThis line really go to me. Through out the book I have thought that Holden really wants to disappear, and maybe at the end it would have happened. As we've discussed in class, Holden thinks dying, more of "jumping out the window" is his best problem solver. He would say he would always be depressed too, and the way he reacted to himself feeling that way, was just to end his life rather than going through the problem. What got him even more worried about dying, was reading those articles in the magazines, that were about change (hormones, cancer, etc), he thought he was going to die soon because he "had" cancer. I think though, he had suicidal thoughts, but never really considered of dying, or killing himself so it really him him that if he did he wouldn't have stayed in this world and thinking what would life be like after he was gone. Even though he was still fishy about Mr. Antolini, he still thought about his words of wisdom, telling Holden not to die of a nobly cause and just live through it, because he sees Holden "falling," and was asking Allie for another chance to live, and not to disappear. This showed me that Holden really did care, and that he did want to change and not let issues come at him.
I absolutely agree with you, Asia. This quote does show that Holden does care for his own life and the lives of others. In a way, it makes me believe he's afraid of death. It also makes me think that he is accepting of the wise advice that Mr. Antolini gave him.
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