D-BAND: CITR CHAPTERS 18 & 19
Please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the
page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try
to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of
potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual
evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A
CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
Format:
"...." (#).
Question:
Answer:
"It was the only dive he could do, but he thought he was very hot stuff. All muscles and no brains. Anyway, that's who Jane dated that night."
ReplyDeleteIs Holden falsely describing this guy because he is just jealous? Or does Jane really date a lot of bad guys?
I think that Holden is very biased in describing this guy because Jane might be his first love and he wouldn't want to see Jane with a nice guy, he wants to think that the guy is a total jerk. Holden is also extremely insecure as he has demonstrated in previous chapters, he is very afraid of rejection. Holden mentioned how this guy has all muscles and no brains, he might be jealous because I don't imagine Holden as having much muscle. If this guy really is as bad as Holden says he is then it makes me re-evaluate how I see Jane. First she goes out with Stradlater, who has Holden do his homework for him and beats Holden up, and now she's going out with this jerky seeming guy who just likes to show off his muscles. It makes me think that Jane might feel more safe with Holden, like she can act herself around him rather than trying to fit in and aspiring to be "cool".
I agree with you, Holden’s view of the outside world is sometimes bias. If Holden likes Jane, then of course he will not like the guy going out with her. But, Holden is not falsely describing Janes boyfriend. Holden could genuinely dislike the guy. As the reader, I do not think this guy is “bad,” but he does sound a little arrogant. When Holden talks about this guy he sounds defeated. WIthout even admitting it, I can sense that this “broke Holden’s heart.” Could Holden reporting on this guy biasly connect to him being in denial of his true feelings? In general, Holden’s perspective of what is happening around him is somewhat different from reality.
DeleteI think Holden is falsely describing this guy because he is jealous. Holden has already said he was a liar and he has already shown how much he loves Jane. He doesn’t want anyone to date her but him, which is why he purposely describes both Stradlater and Al Pike in really negative terms. He doesn’t say that much good about either of them especially once he brings up Jane dating them. Holden wants to show Jane that he is so much better than the other guys she has been dating. Maybe Holden also wants to feel better about him. He is building himself up by bringing other people down. By calling other guys dopey, or bastards, he is implying that he isn’t either of these things. He is also saying that he is so high above them that he can judge them. I think Holden tries to make himself look better in the eyes of Jane and the reader by not describing any male character in the book in a totally positive way.
DeleteI agree with you for two main reasons. The main reason why I agree with you is because Jane seems like his fist true love and Holden seems very jealous knowing that Jane has been going out with so many "dopey guys" that isn't their type. Holden may think that he is the most perfect and understandable person to be dating Jane and is feeling jealous that these boys are not taking advantage but has dated her and left her. This can be one of the reasons why Holden doesn't want to confront or even talk to Jane because he nay get rejected by Jane. due to the types she ahs been dating throughout her life for example Jocks, conceited boys and just obnoxious boys like Stradlater. Maybe he is second guessing himself whether Jane would accept who he really is.
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Delete“I think he was pretty surprised to hear form me. I once called him a fat-assed phony.”(137)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Is Holden actually a likeable person in real life?
Answer: I think the reader assumes that Holden is the nicest, unselfish, and pleasant person to be around or be friends with and that it is the world against Holden. But maybe Holden is the one who has put himself in his lonely, depressed situation. It always seems like Holden is being left out and he doesn’t have any real friends and the girl that he likes is going out with other, horrible, guys. But Holden never actually called Jane or went and said hi so it’s his fault that she ended up going on a date with Stradlater. Holden is so quick to judge people that he can’t make friends with them because he has already said they are bastard or phony. Holden makes the reader feel sorry for him through his telling of the story. As the quote says, Holden is the one who ended that friendship, even if they weren’t close. He was too busy judging and rejecting people that he didn’t realize that he actually needs people to be friends with. He closes himself off to the outside world till he has no one to call. Holden may not be a likeable person in real life because he is always trying to end friendships or trying to protect himself. He says things that hurt people and that make him someone you wouldn’t want to be around. Twice so far in the book he said he has had roommates asked to be moved. Maybe they got tired of Holden being very close minded. Although Holden does try, he isn’t willing to stop judging people and just seeing if they are nice people or not. He is only in New York all by himself because he won’t reach out to people or he has insulted anyone who he could call. I think the reader needs to realize that Holden is not necessarily as much of a victim as he makes himself out to be.
I agree and disagree with you. I think that Holden might not be such a horrible person. I don't think that he is an angel or anything, but a lot of the mean or rude things he says are his thoughts not what he necessarily says. This book gives us a look inside of Holden's head and I think that many other people would have similar judgmental/rude thoughts, they just don't have them read by millions of people. I do agree with you that he is kind of setting himself up for being disliked, how he never calls Jane, and the judgmental thoughts that most people keep in their head, Holden openly says some of them!
DeleteI acually first wanted to use this quote but I changed it seeing you have already did it. What I was thinking was that Holden was lying to himself about liking this guy. I think it because he is very lonely and this is as close as he can get to a campion these days. Also he will be the most mature to be around. What I also find interesting is that he is doing anything he can to avoid home. It make me wonder if he ever will get home in this book. We also know he is someplace now and I think it is this sense of loneliness that drives him there.
DeleteNot that Holden could be considered an angel or anything similar, but I believe that his harsh remarks towards people come from his insecureness and therefore Holden can not be blamed for all of his loneliness. It is not only though his often introverted personality which affects his lack of friends but also his child mentality, and his fear of being rejected from anyone, and everyone. When combined, Holden can often seem like an un-amiable person, discouraging friendship and therefore increasing his sense of loneliness and depression. All of which ends up portraying a teenager who is just going “through a phase”, as a mean, unlikable person, while all this time Holden is trying to find out who he actually is, and what his future might hold, in what he would describe as a lonely, depressing, phony world.
DeleteFirst of all, I disagree with your assumption of the reader’s attitude towards Holden. The fact that Holden Caulfield is narrating this novel does not influence the reader's perception to him much, at least not to a high extent.
DeleteSecondly, to answer your question, I would like to say no, Holden is not a likable character in real life. It can be proven that a lot of Holden's thoughts are provoking—although relatable, at times—Holden’s perception of the human race makes it impossible for him to make genuine friends. His hatred, and his assumptions, of the people he’s never met gets in the way of him getting too attached.
Needless to say, there have only been a few passages throughout the course of this novel in which I have managed to empathize with Holden. The truth is: Holden Caulfield is a mean, self-centered teenager who spends very much time pointing out the flaws of others while failing to recognize his own.
I strongly disagree with Jenny, since Holden narrates the novel the reader is strongly affected by that. Imagine that there was a narrator outside of the story completely. The book would be completely different. Since Holden is telling the story you really get to know him. If it was not Holden telling the story then there would be no story worth telling because the story gets its heart and soul from Holden Caulfield.
Delete“‘Listen hey, Luce. You’re one of these intellectual guys. I need your advice. I’m in a terrific--”
ReplyDeleteHe let out this big groan on me. “Listen, Caulfeild. If you want to sit here and have a quiet, peaceful drink and a quiet, peaceful conver-”
“All right, all right,” I said” (144)
Question: Why does Holden choose to ask Luce for advice? Why does Luce not answer him? What is their relationship like?
Answer: Holden chooses to ask Luce for advice because he is a “grown up” in Holden’s mind and a role model to him. He says, “He was...my Student Advisor.” (142) Holden rants about how smart Luce is. This quote angers me. Just as Holden had finally decided to ask someone for help, he is rejected. This is the only time I have ever seen Holden, “put himself on the line.” I don’t think that Luce wants to answer Holden because he is lazy and just wants to drink in peace. Frankly, Luce does not care about Holden. Luce should have but his personal feelings aside for a moment and helped Holden. That’s what friends do but, are Holden and Luce friends? Luce does not seem very found of Holden. This is a one sided relationship.
I agree with you Neely. Holden doesn't seem like a person who likes to listen to what other people think and when he finally acts for a "grown ups" perspective, even though Luce is only 4 years older than him and that isn't really a big age difference, Holden is being ignored. He is still a kid and is asking for a way to connect with a someone who might understand. I think that Luce maybe is just someone who doesn't care about anyone else but himself. As long as his sex life is ok, he feels like he doesn't need to worry about anything. To me, this might actually have taught Holden not to ask for advice, even though he might need it sometimes. After being rejected like that, I doubt we'll see Holden ask for help again.
DeleteThis really interesting because like you said this is the only time Holden really expresses his feelings to someone about his pain and depression. He is rejected by Luce because Luce is in college and going to Columbia and he doesn't care about Holden's petite problems, but in reality they are big.
DeleteI agree. Also, I believe that Lucas doesn't like Holden as much as Holden likes Lucas, because Holden asks Lucas to stay for another drink, but Lucas makes up an excuse to leave just as Holden opens to Lucas. As soon as Holden says "You're a real friend bastard," (pg. 148) and Lucas doesn't even respond to that just says he has to go short after. I think this shows how Lucas doesn't care for Holden but Holden admires him.
Delete"'Who're you going around with now?'"(p145)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden keep referring back to Carl's sex life? Is it because Holden doesn't have one, or because he wants to know how to get in bed with a girl, or does he want to learn how not to listen to them when they say no?
This quote actually isn't enough to know exactly what happened because the conversation goes on for a couple of pages, but I think that Holden asks all these questions because he knows that Luce is a guy who knows all about sex. Holden even says himself that his sex life is pretty lousy, but that's because he isn't like most guys who would press girls into having sex or "necking" as he calls it. I think that Holden wants to know about Luce's sex life so he can be able get his sex life back on track. He knows that Luce has some sort of plan so I think that Holden tried to take that to his advantage although it didn't even work out.
"That isn't nice. If she was descent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time, you at least shouldn't talk about her that way."(Holden) "Oh God!...Is this going to be a typical Caulfield conversation? I want to know right now."(Luce) ...I didn't say anything. I was sort of afraid he'd get up and leave on me if I didn't shut up."(pg.145)
ReplyDeleteWhat is a "typical Caulfield" conversation?
A typical Caulfield conversation could be Holden's curiosity about something. For example, "Then I thought of something all of a sudden... "By any chance, do you happen to know where they go, the ducks, when it gets all frozen over?"(Holden) He turned around and looked at me like I was a madman. "What're ya tryna do, bud?...Kid me?"(Cab Driver) "No- I was just interested, that's all."(Holden)" (pg.60) This shows Holden asking about something irrelevant because he was curious, as if he were a child asking about non-important things as well. All in all, Holden's conversations probably spring from his child mentality. But it's as though there is actually some hidden message behind certain simple questions he inquires upon older people.
I agree when you say that Holden's conversations derive from his child mentality. I also think that that could be the reason why adults are always getting fed up with him, and often have trouble talking with him. He asks a lot of questions which can make it hard for people to keep up with him, and carry a "normal" conversation. I think it's mostly driven by his childish mind, but also just by Holden being Holden.
DeleteI had similar quote, but it relate it more to the type of questions Holden asks. I agree that Holden has child like mentality. I remembered we talked about this in class, but when kids ask a lot of questions adults will either ask it and move on or not answer it at all because they don't know the answer themselves. In references to the ducks and museum are questions like Why do ducks swim around in a lake or Where do the Indians live ? in a way are childlike mentality. Yet, it symbolizes something deep and something hidden about ourselves and our life.
Delete“ Thats the trouble with these intellectual guys. They never want to discuss anything serious... The thing he was afraid of, he was afraid somebody’d say something smarter then he had.” (pg.114-147)
ReplyDeleteAre these “intellectual guys” really that bad, or does Holden criticize them in such a way for other reasons?
I think that the reason that Holden has labeled these “intellectual guys” in such a negative matter is because he is jealous of their scholarly achievements and intelligence, things Holden believes he does not have after flunking out of three boarding schools, and failing all of his courses but english. Holden’s insecureness, a trait noticed throughout the book, I believe is the root of this need to make intellectuals and even “Ivy League guys” seem like phonies and bastards. By pretending to not be envious and criticizing them, Holden can create a mentality for himself in which these people, or the “brainy” guys, are so bad that Holden can claim to not want to be associated with them while making his own academic standings seem much better then they actually might be, because who would want to be considered a big bastard or phony? Holden though, not only does this to intellectuals but to others he is jealous of, like the boys Jane dated, Stradlater and Pike, both described as phony bastards, and Ernie, a world renowned piano player, who Holden calls a “big snob and all”(pg. 84). These people also being those who Holden feels might be better them him and does not want to feel inferior to.
I certainly agree with you on this. i believe Holden has yet to achieve something big in his life in terms of academic standards in which i think he's jealous of this which may be why he categorizes these "intellectual guys". maybe he calls people phony's and morons because they know what to do or have something planned for their future that lies ahead. on the other hand, Holden is afraid of what the future holds and this may be a contribution to his depression. which his depression leads him to do and call people these names. to sum it up, Holden is just a really insecure guy.
DeleteI also strongly agree with both of you because I think that Holden is jealous because at least these guys are intelligent and they can get somewhere in life. These are the type of guys that like go to Ivy league schools but at least they know what they want to do or be in the future where as for Holden he is lost. He's still trying to find out who he is and who he wants to be and so he doesn't know what his future will be like. He doesn't know what lies ahead and so he doesn't like to think about that type of stuff. These guys are smart and probably achieved a lot in their lives and Holden has no idea what he wants to do and so it portraits jealousy because he has been kicked out of school and he has failed in school before having not accomplished anything in his life.
Delete“I can never get really sexy-I mean really sexy- with a girl I don’t like a lot. I mean I have to like her a lot. If I don’t, I sort of lose my goddam desire for her and all. Boy it really screws up my sex life something awful. My sex life stinks.” (Pg. 148)
ReplyDeleteWhen I read these three questions popped into my mind,
1. Is Holden confused about his sexuality?
2. Does Holden really only want to get "really sexy" with Jane?
3. Does this have to do with his respect for girls?
So to answer my first question I am starting to see how Holden might be finding he and I think his sexuality is part of it. I think also in the 1950s being gay was not accepted either so to show his real feelings would be really hard. I read a book called A Separate Piece and if you read it you know the ending and I will not spoil it for anyone who wants to read it but, the ending can be interpreted in many different ways and in my thought process the main character was actually in love with his best friends who was also a male and passes from a broken heart. (Sorry I sort of gave away the ending but you do not know anything else.) To continue that book won awards probably would not have won award or even be published if it was admitting to two boys in love. So even if at the end of the day Holden were gay ore sexually confused it would not be accepted or out right said. Now to answer my second question, I think Holden really is truly in love with Jane but I do not think he wants to get "really sexy" with Jane because he has to much respect and I think it was his first love but also like a love for a best friend at the same time. Maybe it is a best friend with other feelings for Holden but I do not think it is for Jane so I do not think that will happen. Now lastly my last question, I think he does have respect for the girls but I also think he really has no feeling so he does not want to do anything. This shows respect if Holden knows it or not because he is not leading a on girl on also I think he does not want to take the innocence away from a girl who he has no feelings for. I think he thinks maybe if he does not take away her innocence some how he could get his back.
Quote: " I put my hand on his shoulder. boy, he amused me. you're a friendly bastard" i told him" you know that?
ReplyDeleteQuestion: why does Holden feel this way about old Luce?
In my perspective, Holden feels this way about Luce because maybe Luce had an impact on how he feels towards girls and what he knows about sex in general since Holden states that Luce was his sex advisor. i feel that Holden is open with Luce and is comfortable around him because he isn't afraid of talking to him about how his sex life is bad. also, i feel that Luce may be an influential person toward how Holden acts when it comes to sex or "necking". but to me Holden is really interested on Luce's sex life because maybe he is trying to find a way to make his sex life better. like when Luce was talking on how the east women are better because of phyisical and spirtual experience.
sorry forgot but quote is on pg.148
Delete"All muscles and no brains. Anyways that's who Jane dated that night."
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Is this true or is Holden just jealous that Jane is going out with some one else?
Answer: I think that it is partly true that the guy Jane is dating could be a phony but i also believe that Holden is also jealous. Holden has always said negative tings about people even if he has never met them ever before. Holden likes to judge people without getting to know them first so like don't judge a book by it's cover because you never know what if that guy was nice. I think Holden just views him that way because he thinks that Al pike is just one of those rich spoiled brats who attends a ivy league school and so he think that Al is phony because that is just how most guys like that act. However it can also be the fact that Holden is super jealous because Jane his is first love and he has never felt this way about anyone else before. He has never felt so connected and close with anybody but Jane. Holden even told Jane about Allie which was a big step. So it really annoy the heck out of Holden to see Jane with another guy because Holden really wants to be with Jane. Maybe that is why he is saying that about Jane's boyfriend. He feels that she is to good for him and that she deserves someone better someone like Holden himself and because Holden doesn't want Jane to become one of those girls that just marries a dopey guy to get on with her life.
I agree Holden is jealous and especially doesn't want Jane to end up as one of those girls who gets with one of those guys. However I disagree that Jane is the only person that Holden has ever felt close and connected with. This is because he is also very close and connected with his sister Phoebe. For example he dedicated the first couple of pages of chapter 9, just to his sister and how we would all like her so much.
DeleteI was also going to use this quote.
DeleteAnyhow, after reading your thesis and evidence I strongly agree with you. But for the most part, I believe that Holden is jealous since back in chapter 4, when Stradlater tells Holden that he is going to have a date with Jean his blood starts to boil. Holden becomes upset since he knows Stradlater is no good news when it comes to girls since all he does is toy with the girl’s emotions and leave them when he had his fun. If I were in Holden’s position I would also feel the same way since, I can’t stand the fact that guys actually toy with girls just for the fun of it but at the same time, I become frustrated at the fact that girls go on dates with those phony boys when they know they are going to get hurt.
“I can never get really sexy - I mean really sexy - with a girl I don’t like a lot. I mean I have to like her a lot. If I don’t, I sort of lose my goddamn desire for her and all. Boy it really screws up my sex life something awful. My sex life stinks.” (Pg. 148)
ReplyDelete- Who is he talking about? Who does he think about?
I think he is talking about Jane. Like he can't find a girl to compete with Jane. I think Holden judges people all the times to help himself find out who he's interested in and what he wants to do in life. Holden seems so clueless about everything. I think its kind of hard for him because he doesn't have any friends or anything to to be able to see how a girl acts. I think he has to meet people on his own Like people introduce others with their friends but as for Holden he doesn't know anybody. Does he really like Jane ? I wonder what Holden thought before he met Jane and if he thought she was a phony as well. Holden seems to gets horny a lot throughout the book but he wants it to be special with that one girl he REALLY likes.
"He's the best drummer I ever saw. He only gets a chance to bang them a couple of times during a whole piece, but he never looks bored when he isn't doing it." (pg 178-179 in my book)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden like the drummer so much?
I think Holden likes the drummer so much because he's a truly genuine person. Holden has told us several, several times that he hates phonies, and he likes how the man only gets to hit the drums a few times within a long range of time, yet seems to take joy in doing it. Many people would just hit the drums and not enjoy themselves while doing so, but the drummer seems to not be upset or bored even when he's just standing there waiting to play his part. In society, everyone is part of a larger whole, and everyone has to do their part to make the entire picture work, but many people tend to just put in minimal effort to get them by. The way the world works, everyone has to work hand in hand, and that's why he dislikes phonies so much: because they pretend and put up a fake version of themselves just to get by. This is why when Holden watches the drummer, he finds it truly incredible that he's found someone really genuine within a world of phonies.
"I kept putting my hand under my jacket, on my stomach and all, to keep the blood from dripping all over the place. I didn't want anybody to know I was even wounded. I was concealing the fact that I was a wounded sonuvabitch." -Pg150
ReplyDeleteI picked this quote because I feel like it means something more than what Holden does when he is drunk. There is theory that some people actually speak the truth when they are drunk and in a way, I think Holden is one of those people. I feel like when Holden said "I was concealing the fact that I was a wounded sonuvabitch" he meant more than being "shot in the stomach" just because he is acting like a moron since he is drunk. I actually think Holden means that he is concealing the fact that he is a wounded and depressed soul from the world. If one actually takes a second to think and read it over and realize that Holden is saying, he is trying to hide this specifically from the people, it may click that Holden is actually trying to hide his true feelings of what he is going through in his life and all the confusion that he is struggling through from the people. Holden is a bit of a closed book so it is not really that surprising of someone like Holden to keep a serious problem to themselves, because in all honesty, I don't actually think Holden thinks he has a problem. I think he sees it more of a simple thing that he is going through and maybe that is why when things get so bad and Holden actually feels a bit suicidal, he gets a bit confused!
Oops completely forgot!!!!
DeleteQuestion: Why does Holden go through this specific scenario of trying to hide the fact that he is "wounded" from the people when he is drunk?
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ReplyDeleteI stood up when i ordered them so they could see how tall I was and all and not think I was a goddam minor. Then I watched the phonies for a while."
ReplyDeleteQuestions: What does he really want in his life: his innocence or being an adult?
Why is Holden becoming almost this two faced person?
What is his purpose of acting like an adult?
According to chapter 17 Holden passed by this boy that was walking on the sidewalks and singing to this kiddy song called, "If a body catch a body coming through the rye." Holden was smiling at this little boy because he wants to capture his own innocence and stay a child forever because adults wont judge you for your personality or all the steps you take. You have this freedom that makes you feel free and no matter what you will do you will still be able to do what ever you want. Holden misses these moments in his life and you could actually feel that at one point you have to grow up even though every muscle in your body is pulling you towards your childhood. Holden tries to understand the adult-decisions he can make, but even how much he stresses to be like an adult he just cant. Holden goes into this bar, and suddenly acts likes this adult and almost shows off his adult- like appearance for them to notice that he is one of them. I can relate to why Holden is doing this, because every time when my dad brings me to a meeting or even with family, I begin to act like this totally mature, noble and clam person in every decision so people wont exclude me from other activities and expect that I'm just a little girl. An outcome of this innocence and adult- like person is confusion with his own self and causes him to go through this phase like he once said in chapter 1 when he was talking to old spencer about dropping out from Pency. I guess you get to eel so traumatized being lonely that you fell like nobody knows how much pain you had to go through in your life.
I completely agree and connect with you! I was actually thinking about this and I realized that we all do this in some way. We act like little 5 year olds at times when we want to be child-like and immature. But, yet there are times where we try to act older than we are and act superior and mature. So, in a way I know how Holden feels but it does leave me wondering why exactly he only chooses to be an adult when it comes to things like bars or being tough? Why not when he is with friends? Doesn't he think they are a bunch of morons, yet in a few ways they act alike!!?
DeleteYeah why doe he act so tough knowing that he is a child? and no matter how much he changes he would still have that kid mentality captured in this 30 year old body. I guess we all have the moment in our life that we still act so immature just to have fun maybe Holden is missing these moments of happiness.
DeleteI had this similar question about what Holden wants from life in my response. I completely agree this reminds we act 5 year olds when are having a fight with our siblings. At times, people have expectations on how we are suppose to act when we are older and we have to transition into adulthood. He goes to a bar, hooks up with prostitutes etc.I'm confused because Does this means for Holden, that when you are an adult all the memories of childhood is completely vanished ? or Is the adult world too hard core for him ?
Delete"Listen.Let's get one thing straight. I refuse to answer any typical Caulfield questions tonight. When in the hell are you going to grow up."(pg.146)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Old Luce refers to these questions as typical Caulfield questions?
Holden kept on constantly ask these types of questions when they were in school, and I think the typical "Caulfield" questions refers to the fact that he's curious about his future. For example, when he asked Horowitz about the ducks and what happens to them after they migrate south or when he asked sister Phoebe about the museum. "The museum." "I know, but the one where the pictures are or the one where Indians are?'' (pg.119) He wants to figure out where belongs. However, in class we were learning about Holden was losing his innocence and that he is being poisoned into the adult world by hooking up with prostitutes, such as Sunny and seeing the cross dresser in the Edmont Hotel. He doesn't want to grow up because he doesn't know what to do with his life yet. This leads to important question: Does his curiosity/confusion about the adult world help think about who he wants to be as person in general ?
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Delete“You take somebody that cries their goddamn eyes out over phony stuff in the movies, and nine times out of ten they’re mean bastards at heart.” (Page 140)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden generalize so much?
I do not know the answer to this question.
However, in response to the quote: I realized that many times in the novel, Holden categorizes the people he encounters. Without giving these people—who are, undoubtedly, fighting battles of their own—a second glance, Holden sorts them into subgenres, most of these subgenres not always being positive. I am confused as to why Holden does this. His behavior is very strange: Holden expects other people to have an open-minded nature towards his actions, yet, when it comes to other people, Holden is so shamelessly critical. He makes exceptions for himself. Why is it okay for him to be so judgmental, but so wrong when other people show that nature towards him?
"I thought maybe I might give old jane another buzz and see if she was home yet. I mean I had the whole evening free, and I thought I'd give her a buzz and, if she was home yet, take her dancing or something somewhere." pg. 135
ReplyDeleteQuestion: why is holden still wanting to talk to someone if he's been with like 4 people?
why does he still want to speak with jane, when all he does is meet other people?
I feel like Holden keeps diverting himself from jane because he feels like he isn't ready for her. Holden mostly speaks about jane when he lonely and wants to call someone else but i also feel like he is afraid what might happen when they do finally meet. I think the reason he still wants too speak with jane is 1, he believes jane is one of the only people who can understand him. the 2 reason is because he believes she isn't a moron like the other girls he's met, and his feelings just keep bring her up when ever he feels lonesome. Holden says he's really lonesome when he speaks with old Luce which i find weird because he's been with lots of girls. i think he might feel lonesome because when ever he speaks to others he says they're morons so to him it may be like he isn't talking to no one.
I agree. I asked my self the same question, of why he still thinks about Jane after being with 4 or 5 different woman. I thought maybe the others didn't satisfy his loneliness as much as Jane will. I think the girl of his dreams the one he doesn't criticized or talk about badly is Jane. He's like the woman of his dreams, and he wont let her go for anything. Not any other woman because they mean nothing to him as much as Jane does.
Delete“After the Christmas thing was over, the goddamn picture started. It was so putrid I couldn’t take my eyes off it.” (Pg.138)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden keep on contradicting himself? Holden says that he hates movies but then when it comes to actually watching the movie he cannot take his eyes off of it.
I think that Holden actually likes the movies, and he just doesn’t like the fact that D.B. left him because of movies. He holds a grudge against his brother in result of his bother moving to Los Angels. Holden always seems to contradict himself. He says things like, I hate phony people, and what is Holden, phony. I think that Holden contradicts himself subconsciously. He does not realize the being mad at his brother and having a dislike for movies are completely different.
I agree with you on the way he contradicts himself but when he calls people phony I feel like the word doesn't really mean anything to him. Holden doesn't seems to want to be a phony because he sees it as such a bad thing but at the same time I don't really think that when he calls people phony he really means it and since the word is so over used its kind of lost its value. I believe that he uses it as a defense mechanism because hes calls himself yellow and talked about making himself look tough in previous chapters. I feel like Holden really wants the reader, or whoever hes talking to, to really believe hes tough so he keeps on calling everyone a phony and lying about how dumb people are to make himself seem better and more superior then the rest of the characters.
Delete“That isn’t nice. If she was decent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time you atleast shouldn’t talk about her that way.” Pg. 145
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden care about what Loce says about the girls he’s been with?
This quote was when he meets Loce at a bar and when Loce starts talking bad about a girl he’s been with and Holden defends the girl. When Holden was waiting at the movie theaters he said that some girls will go out with bad guys and he thought it was depressing. This quote really confirms and shows that he really does feel bothered by girls being with the wrong type of guys like Jane, his crush, is always doing according to Holden. The quote shows his uneasiness because it seems like he kind of snapped at Loce because he doesn’t agree with what he has to say and he shows it by defends the girl. I also thought this quote showed the way he isn’t sexist but just has an obsession with girls. Even when the girl has done him wrong he still really likes her and he “falls half in love” with the girl. Although Holden often calls people, including girls, dumb he doesn’t actually mean it. This is shown when he says that hes really ‘yellow’ and he pretends to look tough and is proven after Holden defends this girl and Loce speaks up, defending himself, Holden kind of takes a break and stops trying to get his point across because he’s a bit ‘yellow’ and afraid he would leave. All in all, this quote gives you a little bit of information on how he feels about girls.
"Listen. Let's get one thing straight. I refuse to answer any typical Caulfield questions tonight. When in hell are you going to grow up ? I didn't say anything for a while. I let it drop for a while."
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Is he ready to grow up ? Does he even want to grow up ? Why doesn't he answer the question?
Answer: I think that Holden isn't ready to grow up and so he avoids answering the question. In my opinion he just wants to stay young forever but he cant because he already has gray hair and obviously his appearance is an adults appearance that why in chapter 16 the kids didn't want to play with him because it creepy for a man to play with you. i think he doesn't want to understand the fact that he isn't a kid anymore and he just needs to grow up and let go of his inner childhood even if he wants to keep holding on like everyone else. Unfortunately we all want to be kids again but in reality, in the real world we have to learn to accept the fact that he is now growing older not younger.
I think J.D Salinger's theme of this book is about growing up. I think Holden didn't face a situation at this point, which he has to grow up. Maybe he did, but it wasn't a life or death situation, so he let it pass. The thing is with Holden is that he himself might be a phony. A big ol phony, and the one things that might get him to grow up is Phoebe or Jane.
Delete"And now we like to geeve you our impression of Vooly Voo Fransay. Eet ees the story of a leetle Fransh girl who comes to a beeg ceety, just like New York, and falls een love wees a leetle boy from Brookleen."
ReplyDeleteWhy must Holden make fun of every body he sees?
I think Holden is just confused, and lost, and sometimes doesn't have anything better to do with his life, but to judge and to make fun of other people. When he was imitating this French girl, he emphasized just how stupid she might of sounded. That in its self is kind of mean, and judgmental. Holden doesn't like being judged and yet he's been judging throughout this whole book. His obnoxiousness and input on how society is, is well, just not right.
"I thought maybe I might give old Jane another buzz and see if she was home yet." (page:135)
ReplyDeleteWhy does he always make up excuses not to call Jane? There's nothing to be afraid of… And also, why is he so afraid to talk to Jane's parents?
I think that Holden holds off trying to call Jane because she is his first love and he is sort of embarrassed to talk to her after so much time. He didn't even have the bravery to go and say hi to her when she was in the lobby of his dorm waiting for Stradlater. I think talking to her in person first would be better than waiting and just calling her on the phone. Especially if they haven't seen each other in a long time. I think that Holden is frightened to talk to Jane's parents because maybe it would be awkward for him to talk to her parents instead of her. Nevertheless, they don't bite.
“You take somebody out that cries there goddam eyes out over phony stuff in the movies, and nine out of ten they’re mean bastards at heart. I’m not kidding.” (pg. 140)
ReplyDeleteHow does Holden know this? IS he just making a general statement?
I actually am a little confused at this point. Maybe Holden Is just making a statement how sometimes people seem like they have emotions and actually care about sensitive things but really they’re just mean people that don’t really give a damn about that stuff. I know it may seem weird to think, but I actually feel Holden thinks of people like this because that’s who he is; maybe he thinks “since I’m like this maybe everyone else is.” At times Holden can be very sensitive about things like Jane, like how he goes on long rants just about holding her hand, or even about how he was going to marry Sally and he literally planned the rest of his life there on the spot, but really, he judges people almost every second of everyday and sometimes doesn’t realize how at some points, he can really lack emotion.
I agree. I think that Holden's statement in the quote says a little about himself. I think he says this because he always calls actor fake and because the actors are fake the emotions in the movies are fake so crying is fake. I don't think he is making a general statement because he says nine out of ten people instead of ten out of ten. It just sounds so unlike Holden.
Delete“I’d tell you the rest of the story, but I might puke if I did.” (pg. 139)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Does Holden not like the end of the film because it is so expected?
In the beginning of the film Holden is was so into it that be couldn't look away but when the man got his memory back it leaf to Holden calling the film phony. Holden calls the film phony towards the end because the expected happen, the man got his memory back. Holden doesn't like to do what is expected which is why when Sally said that they could go to Massachusetts and Vermont after they finished college he said that it wouldn't be the same. Holden see the future as something so expect and familiar that he feels that he won't belong. He also sees the future as not being fulfilling to him because everyone would be doing what is expected by society.
to me the way holden discribed it didn't seem to bad but what i have been thinking about is what is phony to him i mean i know what my definition is but whats his. also the ending didn't seem that predictable to me i mean i don't watch a lot of romance movies but i wasn't expecting it.
Delete"The reason i was asking him was because he really knew a bit about sex and all." (pg. 145)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Is Holden respecting girls when he asks about sex or just being a pig? Why does Holden change sides when talking about girls, either respectful or just a hormonal teenager?
Answer: Holed always has a respect for girls, probably because of his sister. When talking to Luce he starts of respecting girls and saying how you cant always have sex with a bunch of girls, but then starts getting curious and asking more about Luce's recent hook ups and things like that. I don't believe Holden being curious is being disrespectful, when he stereotypes and checks women out, or is just with a girl because he thinks shes pretty is rude, but just asking questions and asking a guy who he considers smart and interesting questions about sex is just human nature. During this conversation I believe Holden is respectful to girls, especially when he stands up for the idea that the girl Luce dates was not a "whore". I believe Holden goes all "Holk" on girls and becomes an ass, is because he's trying to figure out who he is and what kind of women he likes. Also, since Holden is more of an outsider he tends to observe people and make assumptions without giving people a chance to prove him wrong.
"If you sat around there long enough and heard all the phonies applauding and all, you go to hate everybody in this world, I swear you did." pg 142
ReplyDeleteWhy does the applauding make Holden so angry? or "start to hate everybody"?
As we all know, Holden has a hatred for "phonies", which is pretty hypocritical of him due to some of his past actions. But I think what really made him angry or what made him have an epiphany is that even though everyone was clapping. He knew that most of these people really don't care and really don't want to be here and it confuses him as to why they're here or why they're clapping. It provokes him to hate them because as he said he hates phonies. But this also brings up the point of him being a hypocrite, he didn't want to be there, but he was and he was probably clapping as well. Throughout the whole story there are many examples of Holden being a hypocrite, him saying one thing or judging someone but then him doing it too.
" and being cute as hell she'd sing some dopey song half in english and half in french and drive all the phonies in the place."
ReplyDeletewhat is Holden's type in girls?
i'm a little confused with what kind of girls holden likes because he likes jane who seems pretty shy and then he likes the girls that sings and you have to be pretty out there and loud to sing so i don't get its maybe because they are both real and open and not phonies. also he calls everybody in that hotel phonies which is extremely repetitive without even knowing them and the only person that is not is that random girl that he has never even talked to. so how can he tell if they are a phony? is there certain features or characteristics or something?
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ReplyDeleteQuote: “Have just one more drink, I told him. Please. I’m lonesome as hell. No kidding. He said he couldn't do it, though. He said he was late now, and then he left.” (Salinger 149)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: If he is knows that he is lonely why doesn't he try being nice to people for a change to at least have an actual friend to go to when feeling lonely?
Answer: I believe that the reason why Holden doesn't attempt to create a bond is because of his insecurity. For instance, whenever a person approaches him to try to become friends he always has to immediately judge them and rejects them as a way to protect himself from being judged. Another reason, why Holden never attempts to become friends with anyone is because he feels that he will always lose that person at the end. He feels this way because he always moves around a lot from one school to another so there is reassurance that he will be able to stay in that place long enough to establish a permanent friendship. In conclusion, Holden doesn't attempt to create a bond with anyone because he feels that most of the people out there that he will meet are mostly phony people who act to be your friend but will back-stab you when they get the chance and Holden can’t stand people like that thus there’s no point in forming a bond with those type of people.
" the only good thing ,I knew she wouldn't let old phoebe come to my goddamn funeral because she was only a little kid . that was the only good part"
ReplyDeleteI don't know why but , this quote at 1st rally confused me because me because I 1st though he was talking about Allie and his funeral then when i re-read it I was really touched because he was think about him dead but it seemed like he wouldn't care about being dead but the only part he would mind how his favorite person( his little sister) to feel the pain of losing some one really important to her. In my mind to Holden , phoebe is really important to him like how he was to Allie and since he looked up to Allie and since he looked up to Allie , Holden doesn't want Phoebe to feel the same pain that he did when Allie died.