For tonight's blog, please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
For example:
"Girls. Jesus Christ. They can drive you crazy. They really can" (73).
Question: What does Holden mean here? Why do girl's drive him crazy? What is his attitude towards girls/women in the novel so far?
"I never seem to have anything that if I lost it I'd care too much." (89)
ReplyDeleteQuestions: Why doesn't Holden get attached to certain things? Is it because of Allie? Does Holden feel this way because of something else?
Possible Answers: I think Holden might not get attached to things because of all that he has been through. Holden frequently gets kicked out of his schools and might not know the true meaning of home. Another reason why he might feel this way is because of losing Allie. Allie was his little brother and he meant the world to Holden. On the night of his death, he angrily broke all of the windows in the garage with his fist. This might be why Holden doesn't normally become attached and used to his personal belongings. He fears that he will misplace them anyway and finds no point of caring for his things.
I'm half and half with this one. On one hand I see Holden not being attached to things after Allie's death because the way Holden talks about Allie it's like he's got him on this pedestal. On the other hand I see Holden becoming attached to Jane and Phoebe. Jane because of their time together, and how they kissed and how he thinks about her a lot and how he fought Stradlater because of his feelings for her. Phoebe because he talks about her the same way he talks about Allie. He's always saying how we would like them and how they're so smart and he's dumb.
DeleteI agree with you here, Abby. I think that Holden is honestly scared to become attached with something because he is afraid that it will be lost. Like you said, Allie could have played a great factor in this because Holden always talks very fondly of Allie, and one day he was gone. However, I think that if Holden does want to move on or grow up, he has to stop being afraid.
DeleteI also agree and I think that Holden doesn't get attached to things because he feels that he won't need them later on in life. For example, his first opinion about everyone he sees or meets is negative. Meaning that he feels no one can live up to his expectations, which are Allie and Phoebe. I think he also feels that everyone around isn't worth his time unless he is very lonely like in the lavender lounge or when he went to Ackley after the fight with Stradlater. The only people that he lets in has been around with him for many years or grew up with him so anybody else needs to meet his standards or just deal with his crappy attitude.
Delete"They tell me to stop, so I stop. I always wish I hadn't, after I take them home, but I keep doing it anyway." (Pg.92)
ReplyDeleteI choose this quote because it gives more insight on how Holden views women, like what we were discussing in class. In this quote he's talking about how he almost has sex with girls and then stops right before it happens because they say so. Why would he stop if he was going to regret it later? The first time the girl says stop and he does, that's understandable. The second time a girl says it, alright fine. But after that you'd think he'd learn by now. I think Holden stops when they say so is because Holden is actually a good guy and he only regrets it later because that's how other boys his age would feel. I remember from Tuesdays reading when Holden says "But when I'm with someone that's corny, I always act corny too." (Pg.60) He's following the crowd in this quote and I feel he's doing the same thing in the quote I have chosen today.
I agree with you, Alana. To answer your question, I would say that Holden doesn't like corny people, but he acts corny himself. I'm guessing that he wants to be a good guy and not get too demanding. He's a teenager, so he doesn't want to be the kind of guy that would always have sex with girls. I also agree with you on the part where you said he might be following the crowd in this quote. The quote you chose definitely gave us an insight on how Holden feels about women/girls now.
DeleteI also agree. However, I think he might be afraid to hurt girls and decides to play it safe instead of having sexual intercourse with them. Holden might actually be very sensitive deep down inside and he is starting to reveal his personality more and more.
DeleteI agree with you. I think Holden just doesn't want to hurt anyone. Another example of this is when he is thinking all these mean things about people in his head and then does reiterate them out loud. I agree with abby also when she says we are starting to see the even more sensitive side of Holden as the book progresses and I think he will eventually turn out to be a person who genuinly surprise's us in the end and throughout this emotion journey.
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ReplyDelete"I walked all the way back to the hotel. Forty-one gorgeous blocks. I didn't do it because I felt like walking or anything. It was more because I didn't feel like getting in and out of another taxicab. Sometimes you get tired of riding in taxicabs the same way you getting tired riding in elevators. All of a sudden, you have to walk, no matter how far or how high up. When I was a kid, I used to walk all the way up to our apartment very frequently. Twelve stories." (pg. 88)
ReplyDeleteQuestions: Is this Holden "not wanting to get in another taxicab" a metaphor? Why is he comparing it to elevators and when he was little? Is there a traumatic memory in that?
Possible Answers: In the previous chapter, we've established that Holden has run into Lillian Simmons, D.B.'s old girlfriend. He lies (as always) and leaves, walking around all of New York angry at everyone. Maybe this was one of those moments he could have when he doesn't want to talk to someone random who can't get to him. Maybe it was the moment where he wanted someone to talk to. He wanted someone close. Like Allie, Phoebe or Jane. Maybe the metaphor is he doesn't want to be stuck in an elevator and taxi, but that he wants to move forward.
"The trouble was, I just didn't want to do it. I felt more depressed than sexy, if you want to know the truth. She was depressing...and besides, I don't think I could ever do it with somebody that sits in a stupid movie all day long... The thing is, I had an operation very recently." (pp.96)
ReplyDeleteI chose these lines because it shows us that even though Holden is "knocked out" by women/girls, he still didn't want to have sex with the prostitute. He was very lonely and just wanted some company, so he wanted to chat with the woman. Why would he lie about why he doesn't want to have sex with her, though? Is it because he doesn't want to hurt her feelings, or is there another reason behind it? Well, in my opinion, he is really depressed and lonely. For example, he said, " I wasn't sleepy or anything, but I was feeling sort of lousy. Depressed and all. I almost wished I was dead." (pp. 90) This shocked me because it shows that Holden is very depressed and and is in desperate need for a friend. The part where he lied confuses me because I don't know if he lied on purpose or just to not hurt her feelings. He was even willing to give her money just for her company. I think he might've lied to not get her angry with him or to not hurt her feelings. When he said he wasn't in the mood, she kept asking him questions on why he didn't want to have sex with her. In order to get her off his back, he lied. This was easy for him since he's "the best liar you've ever seen." Once he explained why he had the operation, she left him alone. Yet, he still paid her five dollars for her company. In the beginning, when Holden said, "I don't feel very much like myself tonight...I'll pay you and all, but do you mind very much if we don't do it?" I realized that he was very desperate for a friend and would do anything to get one.
I agree with you tremendously! A lot of the things Holden represents can lead to desperation and loneliness. This quote is just another evident fact of that. I love how you use the "I'm the best liar in the world" reference too because I felt like that really went with this part too.
Delete"He was a much better guy than the other driver I'd had. Anyway, I thought maybe he might know about the ducks." (Page 81)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden continuously bring up the question of where do the ducks go when the lake is frozen? and why has he only asked cab drivers?
Obviously there is a possibility that Holden is simply asking this question for fun but I think that it is because he is lost in a very big world. What I mean by this is that Holden is sixteen and is traveling by him self in one of the craziest cities. He is so uncertain of his path for the future, that he is asking the most random questions to find any type of idea. I agree with what we talked about in class that one of the reasons he uses ducks as an example is because ducks know where they go when they migrate. It is imprinted in there minds, so I guess Holden wants to relate to them so he can find where he's supposed to be. One other reason I think that Holden asks about the ducks is because it gives him a youthful mind. What I mean by this is that kids always ask questions, especially ridiculous questions so when Holden asks this question it shows his curiosity and how he is still in the in between stages of becoming an adult, or maybe how he doesn't want to be an adult. I think that one reason he picked a cab driver to answer the question is because they know the city the best because their job is literally driving around the city all day. Holden might think that these drivers might have the best idea of what happens to ducks and he is very desperate for the right answer.
I strongly agree with you when you say that the ducks aren't random. Holden does seem to want to stay more of a child. When he's speaking of adults, they seem less honest and open compared to children. They also seem to have forgotten what it was like for them to be teens. For example when the girls in the Lavender Room giggle at him when he's trying to flirt. After reading the second part of your question I thought about it for a while and it's true that not only they know the city very well but there job isn't to just drive around; it's about getting you to your destination. He chose the cab drivers because there job is to bring you to the place you're supposed to be and Holden is frantically trying to find that place.
DeleteI also agree. I think that Holden is definitely using the ducks as a comparison of some sort to himself. Also, the fact that he is talking with a taxi driver and wanting to strike a conversation with him is a way to say that he is desperate. What he is desperate for, is not completely clear, but my best guess is he is looking for some sort of home. If the pond is the duck's home, that means that when it freezes over, they have to migrate to find a new one. I think that Holden relates himself to the ducks to be able to ask people advice about what he should do, without actually mentioning himself.
Delete"Then she left. The Navy guy and I told each other we were glad to've meet each other. Which always kills me. I'm saying "glad to've met you" to somebody I'm not at all glad I met. If you want to stay alive, you have to say that stuff, though." (87)
ReplyDeleteThe question that i chose for this line was, why does Holden feel like he has to lie to people, just so they can hear what they want to hear? Why do people in general lie to accommodate others and societies needs? I think that on possible answer for this question that I have about Holden's reaction, is that he feels as though he won't be accepted into society if he doesn't. Even though this quote may seem like a very small and insignificant line, it actually holds a bigger meaning. I think that this also shows that Holden may not be academically smart, but is socially/street smart in a sense. I also think that Holden feels that if he doesn't follow lives "rules" or "characteristics" he own't be accepted, more than he is now. Another example that shows he wants to fit in to certain places is when, at each bar and when he was with the prositute, he kept on lying about his age, to fit the criteria of an adult. I think that this shows that he feels like he has to change himself, just to do things he doesn't necessarily want to do.
This was an interesting quote to pick, because we can actually see Holden acting like this in more than one part of the book, like when he was talking to the mother on the train, or the teacher when leaving Pencey. In both of these examples, he lies to the people he is talking to in order to spare their feelings. In the example you chose, I think that Holden is required to give a warm goodbye because that is the social norm, and to say something like he is not glad to have met that man would have been very radical, and very rude, and it even could have gotten him into bad trouble like being beaten up. I think that in general you have to be safe and follow social norms like these and keep your rude feelings about others to yourself.
DeleteI agree. Holden feels like he has to lie to society in order to "fit in" with other people. He lies because he wont be socially accepted. But I also think that Holden lies to himself about how great his siblings are so they can stay above him. Holden knows this, he wants to keep them away from him as far as possible because he knows he's just a nobody.
Delete"They can't just ignore the ice. They can't just ignore it."
ReplyDeleteQuestions: Are the fish also a part of the duck story? How does this particular sentence explain more about how Holden is feeling?
Possible Answer: I think the fish is another part of the duck story. It's adding on. As we talked in class, he keeps asking: "By any chance, do you happen to know where they go, the ducks, when it gets all frozen over?" (60) We talked about how this is a coming of age story and the ducks might represent how he feels about adolescence. The ducks are in one place and they leave in the winter but always come back. This relates to Holden as he is trying to come back to his childhood (the lake in the summer) but right now he can't since he's going through his teen years (frozen lake). However, now the fish come into play. "The fish don't go no place." (82) says the driver as he explains that they just stay. Holden might also be stuck, just like them. He's stuck in his childhood years. The quote I chose, "They can't just ignore the ice. They can't just ignore it." (82) suggests that for once, he's not just thinking of when he can come back but where he is now and might go from there. This story about ducks and fish is a bit all over the place in the way that there are so many aspects to it. But that's just how Holden is. He's confused and there are so many possibilities, he won't see them. One reason is he's still stuck in the past. Take the lake as a symbol for past, present and future, the fish are 'stuck in the past'. He says "I mean I'm not going to be a goddam surgeon or a violinist or anything anyway". (39) He still can't get over things such as losing Allie which were in his past.
I agree with you when you say that the fish are also part of the metaphor. The fish represent something different than the ducks though, they represent not being able to move on. The driver says that "The fish don't go no place," and I feel like the author is also talking about how Holden isn't going anywhere, and how he's just wandering around with no purpose. I think the sentence you chose does explain more about what Holden is feeling, and it explains that Holden is feeling stuck, like the fish in the ice, and that he can't just ignore being stuck, and has to do something about it.
DeleteI agree with the fact that the ducks might represent how he feels about adolescence, but I disagree on the part where you mentioned how Holden wants to go back into his childhood. Holden said so himself he had a lousy childhood (1), so I don't think it would necessarily mean that, but I can somehow see where you're getting at!
Delete"He was about the touchiest guy I met. Everything you said made him sore." (P.83)
ReplyDeleteThe Question that this quote made me think of was: Why does Holden go around judging them but then him self sometimes acts like them? Will I think that he does this because it makes him feel better in a way. It makes him feel on top and in charge. Like what we said in class where he is best in his eyes that he does nothing wrong the way he sees it. I also just think that Holden is just a big hypocrite because he goes around saying that people get a hot head very fast, then he does and it is like what is happening? Over all I think that Holden goes around calling people Dumas and people who get sore but then if you said something about him he would get very deference about it.
"The trouble was, I just didn't want to do it. I felt more depressed then sexy, if you want to know the truth. She was depressing," (96).
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't Holden want to sleep with the prostitute? How come Holden has become so depressed lately?
I think that Holden really doesn't know what to do with himself. All night he was trying to find something to do, and he was disappointed with everything there was to do. I think Holden doesn't want to sleep with the prostitute, or do anything besides talk with her, because he's just to depressed to really engage himself in anything. When he saw D.B.'s old girlfriend, Holden made up an excuse to leave, so that he wouldn't have to really do anything. The reason he's been so depressed lately is because I think he is really bored. I think he's bored of the people around him, and of his life in general. In the beginning of the book he talked about how he got bored easily, like when he was talking to Mr. Spencer, and I think that now he's gone past boredom and feels really depressed. But I think Holden isn't really doing anything about his depression and is just feeling sorry for himself.
I agree, I also think that Holden is acting this way because he is constantly trying to find ways to avoid his problems, I think this is why he keeps moving around New York and going to all these clubs and parties and interacting and talking to these random people, hes trying to keep himself occupied 100% of the time so that he doesn't think and realize how depressed he is. I've noticed in the story that he doesn't just sit down and think about his life much, but when he does he always goes into the very sad and depressing parts of it, like when Allie died, and how much he cares about Jane, and then once he talks about these sad things for a while he realizes what he's doing and then immediately changes the subject and goes to do something else, if he's constantly clubbing and moving around, his feelings won't catch up to him.
Delete"God, if I were a piano player or an actor or something and all those dopes thought I was terrific, I'd hate it. I wouldn't even want them to clap for me. People are always clapping for the wrong things, if I were a piano player I'd play in the goddam closet" pg. 84
ReplyDeleteOne question I had from this quote was why does Holden feel this way about attention and people doing arts for other people's enjoyment and money, and how does this relate to what J.D. Salinger's opinions are? I had a few answers for this, one answer is that Holden thinks that when people do different arts, such as writing, acting, playing music, and they are doing these things for other people for money its "phony" because you are using an art, which is something that in my opinion, Holden thinks is very a very personal way of expressing things and then using it to make money and to get famous and get attention is wrong, because art is such a personal and expressive thing, and when someone is being personal and expressive for money, it is not their true feelings, so they're fake, or "phony". I also think that this relates to J.D Salinger's personal opinions very much, because we learned that after finding out that his book became so popular, he didn't want the praise and attention that it came with, instead he shut himself off from the world. I think he did that because he has a very similar, if not identical view on using art for attention, which is why he hid himself from everyone
"I don't feel very much like myself tonight. I've had a rough night. Honest to God. I'll pay you and all, but do you mind very much if we don't do it?" (96)
ReplyDeleteWhy did he call this prostitute and pay her to not have sex with him? What has he thought about that has made him even more depressed?
I think on the inside Holden really does know what feels right and what feel wrong. I think he also has conscience that helps him see the right path when it comes up. In this instance i think having Sally Hayes and Jane Gallagher on his mind has made him not take sex for granted or makes him see that this isn't the right solution to happiness. The fact that a teenage boy just wants to sit around and pay a prostitute to listen/ talk to him is really interesting. The fact that Holden now even more lonely than ever (because of his recurring thought of other girls) is going to just stop trying and even asking someone to listen to him now has to pay someone too shows how low he is and how upset he is and how far he will go to even be heard.
I strongly agree with your answers to your questions. I also think that Holden had a "moral compass" of some sort and knew having sex with the prostitute is wrong. I also think him knowing Sally and Jane changed his decision about the prostitute. I think he might have thought of what they would think of his actions and that also might have changed his mind. Lastly, I also agree with your idea that Holden is so lonely that he just pays the prostitute to talk with him or rather the prostitute half listen to him while he spoke. I think he's reached a new low of desperation by doing this.
Delete"They live right in the goddam ice. It's their nature, for Chrissake. They get frozen in one position the whole winter." (82).
ReplyDeleteDoes this fact about the fishes relate to Holden just like the question he asked about the ducks?
I think that this line definitely relates to Holden in many different ways. Holden started this conversation about ducks like he did with his previous cab driver. We talked about in class how Holden may be able to relate to to ducks. I think it's the same way with the fishes this cab driver brings up. Holden relates to the fishes because throughout the book he seems like he's going through a phase where he's can't go home, he can't go to school, he can't really go anywhere. It appears to me like he's trapped or "frozen" in New York. Holden is also clearly going through some emotional feelings throughout the book which is probably tied in to him being trapped in New York. We know this because Holden brings up the fact that he is depressed many times during his stay."New York's terrible when somebody laughs on the street very late at night. You can hear it for miles. It makes you feel so lonesome and depressed. I also think that Holden will overcome this stress he is going through later in the book, sort of like how the fishes only stay frozen throughout the winter. What I'm trying to say is, eventually, the ice will melt for Holden.
I think that this analogy is really well thought out. I think that comparing New York, Boarding school, and basically his whole life with a frozen pond is completely correct because he does feel trapped and doesn't know what to do. However However, I also think that the fish and the ducks mean completely different things. I think that the fish are representing Holden, who is always stuck under the ice and don't know how to get out. Then the ducks are everybody else who know how to fly, and can get away. Holden feels like the only one who is ever trapped under the ice while the ducks can find a life somewhere else.
DeleteI strongly agree with what you're saying here. Holden is basically like the ducks in winter right now. Stuck. Not nowing where to go or what do to. Maybe by asking where the ducks go, is a cry for help. And maybe since he always asks strangers where the ducks go, is because he doesnt feel comfortable opening up to family or friends, therefore he opens up to people that wont seem to care.
Delete"'So long' I said. I didn't thank her or anything I'm glad I didn't" (98)
ReplyDeleteI think one major question we can think of is: Why does Holden's attitude towards another change so quick and greatly when he is interacting with them? I think this question can be answered with what had happened between him and the prostitute, Sunny. When Holden is getting ready for the prostitute he is almost getting ready for a formal dinner, he does his hair, checks if his breath smells or not. When Sunny comes he introduces himself and even offers a smoke; however when Sunny wants to "do it" Holden hesitates, he suggest that they talk and get to know each other instead. Sunny doesn't like the idea she keeps on pushing the idea of "doing it" and doesn't really listen to Holden. Holden finally lies about having a spinal surgery and cant actually "do it" Which frustrates Sunny and she decides to leave Holden still making him pay 5$. At the end Holden says "I didn't thank her or anything I'm glad I didn't" I believe that Holden's attitude can quickly change when he lies to other people, and when the person he is interacting with him doesn't really listens to what he has to say.
I think you are right Yuki and that Holden is just upset that the prostitute did not want to "do it", showing how he bottles up his emotions, not letting anyone see.
DeleteI agree with you Yuki, I think that Holden's attitude towards girl or just people in general can change so drastically, so fast. In one second he changes from treating Sandy like they are on a date to being rude and not having manners.
Delete"'How marvelous to see you!' old Lillian Simmons said. Strictly a phony. 'Hows your big brother?' That's all she really wanted to know." (86)
ReplyDeleteDoes Holden always seem to notice how "phony" a person is? Is this the only main adjective he uses to describe other people?
Throughout the book, Holden does nothing but call others phonies again and again and again. Literally, it never stops. He's called countless people phony, even his own parents. But he never stops to call himself a phony, even though there is plenty of evidence to support that claim. I mean, he lies and lies and acts all confident but he calls all these other confident people phonies. Heck, he even called the women at the Lavender Lounge phonies and he barely even knew him! Holden is a little too confident, but this is all through his perspective. So far, I can tell Holden is nothing but pessimistic. But it can not be helped most of the time.
"if I were a piano player, I'd play it in the goddamn closet." (pp 84)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why do you think Holden wouldn't want the applause? What does it say about Holden that he wouldn't want to share with anybody because phonies will applaud for him?
I think this shows that Holden is an extreme introvert, and he doesn't want to sell out and become a 'prostitute' like his brother D.B. I think that his views towards performing also show that he is hesitant to believe that people really like what you do, but rather they are simply hopping on a bandwagon, and clapping for everything. The fact that he says he would play in a closet seems symbolic for the fact that maybe he believes that he really is intelligent, but he doesn't want to show that to other people because he thinks that people wont understand him, although that interpretation may be a long stretch. Another reason he says he would play in a closet may go back to what we were saying in class, and the fact that he doesn't want to let others in. Even if it's something like playing music, he wants to keep it to himself because he doesn't trust others, and he doesn't want to share with anybody, especially those beyond his inner circle.
I think this is a really interesting idea, and I completely agree with you. I think your quote does connect to the idea that Holden knows he is intelligent, but he doesn’t express it for fear of not being understood. When he is saying that he would play in the closet, I think he’s saying he would rather not be heard than to be misunderstood by his audience. He even says, “people always clap for the wrong things,” (84). This can connect to how he really is intelligent, but he doesn’t let anybody know it because he is afraid that they won’t appreciate and understand him.
Delete"He was one of those guys that think they're being a pansy if they don't break round forty of you fingers when they shake hands with you." (86) Q; Whats a pansy?
ReplyDeleteMaybe a pansy is a term "tough" guys used to describe each other, maybe it was used as a bad thing to be, maybe like being a wuss or a chicken. I think Holden thinks that the guy thinks that he needs to be tough for his job in the navy and that not being so is going to make him not ready for whatever things the nay has to deal with. Maybe Holden had bad experiences with a person in the service and now the memory makes him prone to thinking that all officers and service men are like that.
“It made me feel sort of sad when I hung it up. I thought of her going in a store and buying it, and nobody in the store knowing she was a prostitute and all… It made me feel sad as hell – I don’t know why exactly,” (p. 96).
ReplyDeleteQuestion:
Why does Holden have sympathy towards Sunny, but was so mean and disapproving of the girls in the Lavender Room? Why isn’t he also so judgmental of Sunny, who is a prostitute?
I think part of the reason that Holden feels so sympathetic towards Sunny is because in a way, he feels that he can relate to her. Both Holden and Sunny are sort of outcasts; they’re both alone at night with no one to care for them. All night, Holden has been wandering the city trying to find someone to talk to, and feeling miserable. For example, when he is alone in the lobby of his hotel, he says, “…I was feeling sort of lousy. Depressed and all. I almost wished I was dead,” (p. 90). As for Sunny, she has to spend her time with men who pay her to be with them, but who don’t actually care about her. I think that because Holden sees how young Sunny is, and because he understands what it feels like to be alone the way Sunny most likely does, he feels really sympathetic towards her and doesn’t judge her the way he judges many different women.
On the other hand, Holden was extremely judgmental of the women in the Lavender Room, and I think he viewed these women completely differently from the way he viewed Sunny. The women in the Lavender Lounge were much more confident, and they were not alone the way Holden was. As someone mentioned in class, he was maybe being so judgmental of them in order to boost his own ego about his loneliness and depression. However with Sunny, he could relate to her pain and felt no need to judge her.
I agree with you, Holden can sort of relate to sunny, but what I think he meant with the dress line: was that looks can be so deceiving; how something, someone so innocent, can end up being the opposite of what you expected it or they to be. Holden seems to be very judge mental of all women, it's almost as if he see women as below men, and he seems very sexist to me. I do agree with what you said about Holden feeling sympathy for this girl, but he always has the same attitude to all women; except the ones he loves.
DeleteBesides, he was such a touchy guy, it wasn’t any pleasure discussing anything with him.” Would you care to stop off and have a drink with me somewhere?” I said.
ReplyDelete(Page 83)
Why does Holden want to have a drink with the taxi driver if he doesn’t even think that the guy is fun to talk to?
Holden is so lonely that I think just having someone with him makes him feel less depressed. I think that a root of his loneliness is depression. Holden being depressed all the time sort of makes him realize how alone he is and that he doesn’t really have that many people he can turn to. Holden says on page 58 “But I wouldn’t visit that sonuvabitch Morrow for all the dough in the world, even if I was desperate.” By saying this he is telling us that he is desperate for some company, anyone that can just make him feel less lonely and even if its just for a minute, help him forget about being depressed, Allie dying, and all the bad things.
First of all, I'm not sure if we're talking about the same page because I have a different copy of the book than you, but I think you're referring to when the taxi driver turns Holden down on his offer to get drinks. I have a close friend that is very similar to Holden: he's very cynical. Whenever someone would reject any type of offer from him, or reject him in any way he would say things like "They're a (insert negative word here) anyway." I think people like my friend and Holden need to tell themselves that so they don't hurt their egos (which are big). They need to reassure themselves, and putting the person that rejected them down helps them do that.
Delete"It makes you feel so lonesome and depressed..."
ReplyDelete-Pg.106
I' starting to see more and more examples of Holden's loneliness that we talked about a few days ago in class. This is my question: Why won't Holden just straight- up say that he's depressed? If he's in a rehab/hospital/place of healing (which I personally think he is) then why won't he flat out tell his doctor/caretaker that he's really lonely? Why doesn't he just say his feelings? Holden's always saying he hates "phony" people. He likes real people, and I think he's insecure about his loneliness, and therefore is "phony" because he doesn't just admit to his feelings. In my opinion, Holden needs to practice what he preaches, and right now he isn't.
I agree with your answer, Lucas! However, like we discussed in class as a possibility (I forgot who brought this up) that Holden was writing this to his doctor, but after everything happened (thats my little twist to it). On the first page it talks about this crumby place (possibly a hospital) and then he goes on saying "I'm not going to tell you my whole goddam autobiography or anything. I'll just tell you about this madman stuff that happened to me around last Christmas just before I got pretty run-down and had to come out here and take it easy." The part where he says "...before I got pretty run-down and had to come out here and take it easy," proves that their was something huge going on, that lead him to a crumby place (most likely rehab/ somewhere to help him, all p. 1) and he says "Where I want to start telling is the day I left Pencey Prep." So basically, this whole book is about Holden retelling his "run-down" that lead him to the crumby place he describes on the 1st page. Going back to your question, I think Holden doesn't straight up says that he's depressed, because he thinks he can push through the sadness and feeling lonely, but he just keeps on landing in the same spot all over again. If he ever told anyone, they would just think its a regular teenage phase with the mood swings and he feels that he can't really trust anyone. If he really did own up to those words (telling himself that he is...), lonesome and depressed, then he would feel that way and feel even worse and who knows what would have happened next. I agree that Holden can be a hypocrite most of the time, its a teenager thing. Sorry for going way off track, but I think I at least answered some of your question.
Delete"It's a funny kind of yellowness, when you come to think of it, but it's yellowness, all right" (90).
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden try to portray this tough, I don't care guy persona when deep down inside his actions show he cares?
I think Holden tries to portray this persona because this is like is form of protection. Like for example a duck has feathers which protects them from the cold. Holden has his hunting hat but he also has this "shell" that protects him from people getting close to him. For example, when someone asks him a question on instinct he just lies and I think he is like this because he feels if he tells the truth he will not be able to stop himself from telling deeper secrets and his feelings on past things like the death of Allie. Like when he was talking to Ernie's mother (Ch.8) he was just spitting lies out of his mouth. I also feel that he shows that he cares from his actions. For example, when he did Stradlater's composition (38). Or when he asked Ackley to join him and his other friends when he was going out (36). These examples show that Holden may not actually say he cares and expresses it to the fullest, but that deep down inside he cares very much about people and he wants someone else to actually care, enough to talk to him daily, about him to.
"I'm just no good at it, though. I'd rather push a guy out the window or chop his head off with an ax than sock him in the jaw. I hate fist fights." Page 89-90
ReplyDeleteThis line made be kind of skeptical of Holden. He almost seems like a hypocrite, saying that he doesn't like fist fights. If what he said here was true, then why did he punch Stradlater? Was it because he thought that Stradlater had sex with Jane? Does this mean that Holden is secretly in love with Jane, but just doesn't want to admit it? I honestly believe that Holden just has his foot in his mouth; he wants you to believe something about him that he probably isn't. If he is such a pacifist, then why did he hit Stradlater? What I think is: he did it because he was both angry, and jealous that Stradlater might of had sex with Jane. I bet that if Holden was in a position to fight someone, he would.
I concur with your statement
Delete-Ethan Richard Burda I
" I damn near got my coat back and went back to the hotel, but it was too early and I didn't feel much like being all alone" (pg 84)
ReplyDeleteQuestion:He's alone sitting at his table in the back of the night club so whats the difference if he goes back to the hotel and is alone or if he stayed alone at the night club?
Answer: I think Holden feels like he'd be better off staying at the night club then going back to the hotel because at the hotel it would just be him in his room alone and he could ignore the fact that he has no one who he's close to that can help him. At least at the night club he can look for people to hang out with and be in a vicinity with a large group of people. That probably makes him feel better because he might feel somewhat part of the group of people there. I also think he didn't want to go to the hotel because when your alone by yourself and you have time to think you might come to conclusions that you realize are true and you can't hide from them. I think Holden is afraid of this, he keeps lying to himself and trying to desperately escape from being alone.
"New York's terrible when somebody laughs on the street very late at night. You can hear it for miles. It makes you feel so lonesome and depressed." (p. 81)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden finally confirm/ reveal his true emotions at this time?
In my point of view, I believe that Holden has almost reached the limit where he can handle his emotions. When he was thinking about the streets of New York, he was heading to a night club, to most likely socialize with people so he can feel less lonely. In a way, he was "rejected" because when he was in the cab driving to a hotel, he asked the cab driver to get a cocktail with him (and said no), when first arriving at the hotel and he wanted to call someone, so he called a stripper (Faith Cavendish) and she couldn't spend time with him that night, because it was too late. It was so late at night, that he was feeling this way, he couldn't even go to sleep! (and of course he goes to the club to talk to the 3 girls at the Lavender Lounge, who also didn't want to keep him company. He hated the girls so much, but he still hung out with them because it made him feel good, like we discussed in class. As a possibility, later on in the book Holden might crack about his emotions, like how he did about Allie, and his stressful life with Stradlater, but instead since he's alone, he might do something even riskier. Holden is a very smart kid, but just doesn't know how to handle his feelings. He never really expressed how lonely and depressed he felt, he just showed us as the readers through his actions. I feel some how (later in the book), he will still get through it and find someone like Jane, Allie and Phoebe who really, truly care about him.
I agree that Holden never really expresses his emotions, which can lead to another emotional meltdown. I assume how he handles them so far is to ignore it completely. The reason I think he finally confesses his emotions is because there is nothing left to really do. I think his plan was to try to do as much stuff as possible, which explains the constant movement to clubs, and trying to meet new people, even if he hates them right away. Since he wasn't sleepy he probably tried to tire himself out to not have those few minutes in bed when you're trying to fall asleep but you suddenly think about everything that is going on in your life. He is trying to run away from his problems which will end up catching up with him, and could have a larger consequence.
Delete"Only I wouldnt have the guts to do it. I'd just stand there, trying to look tough." (pg 89)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden not act tough without the hunting cap on?
I think this line definitely shows Holden in two different ways. Whenever he has his hunting cap on, he feels more safe, and secure, which makes him lash out and act tougher, or at least feel tougher. "I put my red hunting hat on, and turned the peak around to the back, the way I liked it, and then I yelled at the top of my goddam voice, Sleep tight, ya morons!" (pg.52)
But when its not on, he seems to be more of a wuss, or sort of scared to stand up for himself, as seen in the quote up there. I personally think the hunting cap doesn't change anything. He can be the tough person he is, without it.
I also think Holden needs some confidence. His self esteem seems to be low, obviously if he's hiding in his hat to be able to speak up.
"New York's terrible when somebody laughs on the street very late at night. You can hear it for miles. It makes you feel so lonesome and depressed... I kept wishing I could go home and shoot ball with Phoebe....."
ReplyDeleteDoes Holden separate him self from other people like he is in his own world?
According to this quote Holden feels left out by other people. In a way this shows that he my be more of a independent worker or thinker. This also shows he is kinda of confused like, he didn't know if he should go home like in the quote. I believe that Holden is hold back from other people because he doesn't want to be rejected again like in chapter 10 when at Penn station. So basically he is exluding himself from the rest of the world so he wouldn't have to got though the pain of rejection again.
-Ethan Richard Burda I
I agree with you . He always tries to isolate himself from others. He always thinks about what would others think about him if he was to do something or say something . So he keeps away from the rest of the word .
DeleteI disagree with the part when you say the holden was isolating himself at Penn station. He was talking to the mother of a guy Holden knows, he was lying about her son being some hot-shot at school so they could keep the conversation going. If he were to say oh your son is a jerk or something like that to the guy mother would really want to talk to him. He also offered her to get a drink at the cocktail bar to keep a conversation going and spend time with her. You wouldn't really ask someone to hang out if you didn't want to hangout with someone if you were isolating your self, but I agree with the part when you say he was independent.
Delete"Would you care to stop off and have a drink with me somewhere ?" ( 83)
ReplyDeleteWhy does he constantly ask people to have a drink with him ?
I think the Holden is a very lonely person. He always give this in deep description about someone. He gives people names. He said that Mr.Horowitz was a much better guy than the other driver he had have . So by this I think he feels since his having this conversation with him and he feel sort of comfortable he says let me ask him if he wants to have a drink since I'm all lonely. I think he keeps asking this question because he wants to know what's everybody reaction will be coming from him even though they don't know how old is he , because he says he has a few gray hair, but jet knows he's young . I don't know, I'm kind of confused as in why he keeps asking this . As well. Think he keeps asking this in a sort of a joke, or as if in he really needs to sit down with someone and talk . But jet he does not like saying much about him self to others. He always lies about the simples things . Holden is a really confused kid I just think he needs to find a place in this world , because I feel he does not feel like he belongs here
Quote- “I certainly began to feel like a prize horse’s ass, though, sitting there all by myself.”
ReplyDeleteQuestion- I wonder if Holden feels so alone it kills him…or if this means that he's so alone that he's proud of himself for keeping his tough façade up.
Possible answers- I think that Holden is always keeping his wall up, but sometime he just has to let loose otherwise he would explode from keeping all his feelings in, and he probably would have ended up in a rehab facility so much earlier then when he was 16/17. Not only that, but I believe that Holden means both ideas by saying he felt like a “prize horse’s ass”. I think that because he's so lonely and so desperate he went to the bar to hear some music, because he though it would end up cheering him up, when in fact I’m sure it helped lead to the fact of him bawling his eyes out. In total the layers that Holden has been able to keep up around him make him so depressed and lonely and so happy/proud at the same time because he has accomplished what he has promised himself to do, yet he also ruined his youth at the same time
-Marek Barnette
Tomas Benincasa
DeleteI agree Marek. I feel that the seen at Ernie's shows how depressed he is, and how he is so desperate for company. The part of the scene that stands out to me most is the fact that he is overhearing other people conversations, showing his jealous and sadness. I feel that most of chapter 13 is Holden explaining how sad he is without Jane's or Pheobe's company. I think the line you chose shows Holden's insecurities, and how he feels like a "horses ass" because of his prior actions.
To answer your question, I think it does, because he cares about what society thinks of him, which is why he hides behind his lies and his persona.
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ReplyDelete"The fish that's different. The fish is different. I'm talking about the ducks, I said... What's the difference about it? Nothin's different about it." (Pg.82)
ReplyDeleteQ:What symbols do the fish and ducks represent?
A: I think that the duck represents Holden and he's leaving the pond with is Pencey. The fish are supposed to represent of the people that still go to Pencey, they know where they are and where there going to be which is at Pencey. On page 41 Stadlater says, "No wonder you're flunking the hell out of here," thats the reason that holden is leaving, and the ice pond is frozen so the ducks have to leave too. The fish who don't have a problem with the ice are going to stay and the people who are not flunking are going to stay.
"A girl that isn't a prostitute for anything, I mean- she keeps telling you to stop. The trouble with me is I stop. Most guys don't (pg.92)."
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden continue to postpone the loss of his virginity?
Holden assumes most guys don't see their virginity as a big deal, in the quote he states that most guys will go for their shot to be with a girl, but as soon as he sees some form of hesitance from a girl he immediately stops. What I think is a probable answer is that his self esteem issues do not just effect with the judgment of making friends, but it has also leaked into his sexual life. Since he is a virgin and is in a stage where he is suppose to be learning about life in general, him being stuck in a boarding school hasn't given him the chance to go out and explore. One can tell he is nervous because even when his encounter with the prostitute, he as well decided not to go through with losing his virginity to Sunny. Holden just really wants to have a conversation, which he still pays for. He even made a lie up of having an operation recently to have a valid excuse not to have intercourse with the lady. I also think his he shows how apathetic he is for the loss of his virginity in connections in the book. When speaking of this character from a book and a saying it had, "a women's body is like a violin and all, and it takes a terrific musician to play it right (pg.93)," the body of a women is seen as an instrument, and not just any instrument but a violin. The instrument, a violin was also referred to when he has his mental breakdown of the death of his brother. Due to this breakdown, he can't make a proper fist, which he doesn't see as a big deal and says " I'm not going to be a goddam surgeon or a violinist (pg.39)." I see this as a connection in how because of everything he has been through, the death of his brother being one of them, his now lack of self esteem, has caused him to be this way.
Tomas Benincasa
ReplyDelete"I wasn't sleepy or anything, but I was feeling sort of lousy. Depressed and all. I almost wish I was dead." (Pp. 90)
Question- Is Holden in denial? Does he question his actions because he always feels he did something wrong?
Possible Answer - I think that this quote shows how Holden is in denial, feeling that he is taking steps in the wrong direction. I think that throughout his experiences in New York, he realizes he is desperate and lonely. During his walk from Ernie's back to the hotel, he explains how he feels "yellow". On page 89, he says that "Its no fun being yellow. Maybe I'm not all yellow." I think that this quote shows that he is questioning himself and his morals. I think that he shows that he feels terrible about himself, but he doesn’t want to give up. I also think that he is beginning to realize that he is throwing his life away, but is afraid that opening up to people will make him seem weak and dependent. One example of this is when he lies to the elevator man, saying he is 22, so that he can have the prostitute sent up to his room. While waiting, he finds himself in state of cognizance, realizing how low his self-esteem is, and how he is actually a coward. I feel that throughout the story, he has been embarrassed and scared of who he is, so he hides behind the lies he tells others. A couple of examples of him lying to hide his true “identity” are his conversation with Ms. Morrow, when he chats up the women in the Lavender Lounge.
I totally agree with you Tomas. I think that however he is not questioning his morals, but rather trying to figure them out. I believe that Holden is too young to be out exploring the world by him. Not exactly that he’s is too young to be exploring New York City, its just the way he is doing and the time. To answer your question, I don’t think Holden is in denial, I feel that he knows exactly what is going on-in the back of his head. The reasons he questions his actions is because, like I said, he is trying to figure what his place in life is, he is reaching the end of his high school career, and he doesn’t know the ducks migrate south in the winter. He is just so oblivious to certain parts of his surrounding that he doesn’t realize exactly what going on because he only sees and hears what he wants to rather then letting his body head take over then his senses.
DeleteQuote: “I’m one of those very yellow guys. I try not to show it, but I am… It’s no fun to be yellow. Maybe I’m not all yellow. I don’t know. I think maybe I’m just partly yellow and partly the type that doesn’t give much of a damn if they loose their gloves.” 117
ReplyDeleteQuestions: What exactly does Holden mean by the fact that he's all yellow? Does it mean that he gets riled up easily or that he is mean person in general, that just never takes things to far? Is he always ‘yellow’ or just sometimes? Why does he say he doesn’t care when he really does?
Possible answers: I believe that Holden obviously get riled up so easily, other wise he wouldn’t be able to go on and on about how someone is a phony when they most likely aren’t. However I don’t think Holden is a mean person, I think it’s just that he judged too quickly because he compares them all to Allie and Phoebe. Also, Holden could never actually hurt someone to badly because in the back of his head, I believe that he will always be thinking about that fact that Allie is dead and that he could never leave that fate to anyone even if it were the slightest chance in a million. The wall that Holden has built around him, is always slowly coming down and then quickly being repaired which is odd because Holden wants to talk he just doesn’t know how, which is sad because he probably could be able too if his parent had gotten him ‘psychoanalyzed’, after his younger brothers death.