Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
Friday, October 3, 2014
H-BAND: Catcher in the Rye Chapters 14-16
Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
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"What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get very depressed."(110)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it shows Holden opening up about himself and his feelings when he's upset. I feel that he is showing guilt in this quote because he later mentions how he used to say his brother couldn't play with him and Bobby Fallon because he was only a child. He probably feels guilty that he didn't have much time with Allie and he wishes that he could've had a closer bond with his brother. I think Holden is trying to reveal that if you have someone special or someone you just met, you should cherish the time you spend with that person because you don't know how long you have left with them. The connection that I make is that last year I almost lost my little brother. He was in the hospital for two months and the fact that he’s still alive is a miracle. When he was in the hospital, I tried to build a strong connection with my brother so I would only have good memories if he passed. Holden punched all the windows when he lost his brother and when I almost lost my brother, I gave up on everything and I thought there was no point. The experience with my brother allowed me to understand Holden’s perspective on his situation.
Wow thats strong... I agree with you, Holden misses his brother Allie. I feel like Holden is a different person and thinks differently since his brother died. One thing my group and I worked on during our talk about how Holden feels about women was talking about how Allie's death has changed Holden with not only his image about women, but everything about himself. He cares deeply about those he knew before Allie died. The way he sees people now is almost all hate, and almost nothing good.
DeleteGreat connection. I feel that a lot of people can sympathize with Holden In this part as well. The fact that he's admitting to being depressed at times and wanting his brother back to talk to is different than what we normally read about in other chapters. Similar to Jane and Phoebe I beleive Allie brung out the best In Holden and when he lost him he wasn't sure who he was anymore .
DeleteI agree with you whole heatedly. I also think though, that Holden lost apart of himself when Allie died. A part that could understand people and empathize with them. I'm not saying Holden doesn't have empathy any more, I'm saying that its not the same kind of empathy. He just empathizes with the down trodden and not with the ordinary individual. But I most also congradulate the connection you made to your own life and your brother. It is a well rounded and excellent connection. I applaud you. Good work.
Delete"Besides, I wanted to find a record store that was open on Sunday. There was this record I wanted to get for Phoebe, called "Little Shirley Beans." (pg.127)
ReplyDeleteThis quote instantly stood out to me because personally I love records and I think they are so old fashioned. I don't know where this sudden interest of records started but I think it is a great way of having a blast in the past. Also, I thought that the fact that Holden was just walking around the neighborhood, all of sudden just thought of his little sister Phoebe. I thought that, that was really genuine and nice of him which just reinforces the fact that he cares so deeply about her and loves her. As we have seen in previous chapters there is no doubt that Holden absolutely adores her and thinks very highly of Phoebe. I feel like Holden is truly genuine when it comes to Phoebe because he has compared her to Allie before and it's like she is his last connecting thread to Allie.
I totally agree with your statement. I read your blog and it provoked a thought: why is Holden so sincere towards Phoebe? Is it because she is his little sister and he likes her innocence or is it something deeper than that? If you read my blog it says that Holden probably talks to Allie because he feels guilty about not having a strong bond with him. Is he sincere with Phoebe because he wants to not have that same guilt that he did with Allie? Does he want to make up for lost time? I think he does; he's been away at school away from his family so aside from the fact of feeling not guilty, I also think Holden sincerely misses Phoebe as well.
Delete"I mean I liked him best in the play, old Mercutio. I don't know. All those Montagues and Capulets, they're all right-- especially Juliet-- but Mercutio, he was-- it's hard to explain. He was very smart and entertaining and all. The thing is, it drives me crazy if somebody gets killed-- especially somebody very smart and entertaining and all-- and it's somebody else's fault."
ReplyDeleteThis quote immediately stood out to me because I felt like it had more to do with Allie's death than it does with Mercutio's. I think that Holden saw his brother in Mercutio. He's wondering why the good guys always have to die. He feels like Allie was so much better and didn't deserve to die. This quote showed that he's wrestling with the death of Allie and the reason behind why people who only do good have to die. It makes me wonder which character he seems himself as. Does he blame himself for Allie's death for some reason, meaning that he views himself as Tybalt?
When I read that part in the book I thought the same thing that it had more to do with Allie's death then Mercutio's. I feel like he misses his brother a lot, specially now that his on his own he has all this time to think of Allie, when he was in Pencey his roommates at least distracted him from thinking about Allie as much. I feel like he doesn't entirely blames himself but he does feels guilty and sad that his brother died.
Delete"The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody'd move... Nobody'd be different."(135)
ReplyDeleteThroughout the book, Holden prefers to keep his personality partly concealed, so it leaves the reader responsible for finding the little pieces in the story that do reveal something about him. With this quote, it shows how Holden hates change. I think this is why he feels depressed during many parts of the story, because the people around him are constantly changing and being altered by society. He misses the modest and humble moments of his childhood, because when you are younger, you don't care how you are viewed and there aren't any "phonies". A strong example is his brother D.B, who Holden referred to as a prostitute when he started writing for money, and no longer because he genuinely enjoyed it. With so many things changing around him, like the death of his brother Allie, Holden has spun out of control. And the little things like the museum and his sister Phoebe are the few things that Holden can hold onto that haven't changed.
My goodness, Kenneth, I was going to use the exact same quote! I completely agree with everything you said. To add on, I also think that because the continuous changes around Holden are spinning him out of control, he is unable to find himself and what it is he actually wants. This is why his interactions with people are either by chance or because he's gone out to escape the depression of his current situation. I's obvious that in the end he has no idea what he's doing or what he really wants because he either ends up in trouble or he gets depressed and leaves. Two very strong examples of this would be when he was leaving the school and when he was leaving the hotel.
DeleteOne question that keeps popping in my head is why these chain of events are happening to Holder since he left the school. why is all of this happening and what will it all lead to?
I totally agree with your point. I think one of the many reasons Holden is depressed is because everything around him is constantly changing. A big example of this is that he's always switching schools. He leaves behind his friends, his teachers, his room, and starts all over. This is never a good experience for anyone, but it's especially rough for someone who really hates change. Holden is craving some consistancy in his life, and that's something that's going to be difficult for him to achive, and he knows that.
Delete" What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I probably would have done it, too, If I'd been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed (p. 117)
ReplyDeleteThroughout the story, Holden continuously talks about how depressed he's feeling. As a reader, I can only assume that it's just because he's going through a lot of misfortunate events, that he's already damaged due to Allie's death or that he's just abusing the phrase. However, this quote opens up my eyes and now I begin to see that this repetition is really important. All of the things he's going through seriously affect him. This quote plus the repetition proves that Holden is not enjoying his life right now and I don't think that he's lying. I know this because in the book he states " I didn't want a bunch of stupid rubbernecks looking at me when I was all gory" (p.117)
Here, Holden is trying to shut us out and trying to hide the real reason why he hasn't yet done what he intended to do. This is not the first time Holden tries to use excuses in this way, which is why this time is all too familiar. All this depression wouldn't be good for any teen and what Holden is going through should not be over looked.
I saw this quote and I really wanted to use it but I didn't really know how to explain it and I thought that you explained it perfectly and basically said everything that I wanted to say but couldn't express in to words. I completely agree with you and I also thought that Holden's behavior definitely shouldn't go unnoticed and I feel like he is leading his life in to a very dark path. As you have said we have constantly seen Holden talking about how depressed he is feeling and that is not something any teenager should be feeling. Holden really needs to speak up and get seek help before this turns in to something bigger.
DeleteI agree with you. Although, the point of Holden feeling lonely was brought up, I feel like we haven't given much thought to it. Holden has stated that he feels lonely, but I didn't think it would lead up to him thinking about suicide. Although, Holden doesn't make it seem like it, Holden is in a very serious situation and it can't be ignored. As you guys said, Holden needs to talk to someone who is reliable and I feel like the best person to talk with would be Jane.
DeleteI agree that Holden's depression is affecting him in some very big ways, but I also think that this quote shows that Holden really care what other people think about him. This is basically saying that the only thing keeping him from killing himself is because he is afraid of what other people would think. That's pretty messed up.
Delete"They were these very inexpensive-looking suitcases- the ones that aren't genuine leather or anything... I hate when somebody has cheep suitcases." (141)
ReplyDeleteThis quote may not be the most out there quote, but it does symbolize who Holden is as a person, somebody who is just so selfish and doesn't think of the problems that others may have. These two people are nuns, if you know about nuns you know they aren't the fancy type, and of course not in the 1950's. Holden also doesn't think about others and how they may be doing in life. Some people might not have to money to have things like "genuine leather or anything". I know some people may say Holden has it hard to, and he does in a way. He has almost no support from his family, he fails almost every school he goes to, and many more things. I'm just saying Holden is very judgmental, and he is lucky he doesn't say these things out loud.
I think that the reason that he might be so judgmental over people who have less material things than him is because that's one of the few things he has to feel superior over. Everyone else is more sociable or happier, and the only thing he can hold over their heads is material items.
DeleteTo add on to Gemma, Holden doesn't know what he's doing with his life and seeing men in suits and women in fancy dresses really makes him feel like his life is practically worthless compared to these people's lives. Holden often makes a fake personality to mask certain parts of himself, but here Holden can be fully truthful with himself and seem like this lost in the world and poor boy actually can be superior to others and that makes him feel good, comparing his possessions to others that he didn't even earn.
Delete" He was just singing for the hell of it, you could tell..." a body catch a body coming through the rye." It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed any more"
ReplyDelete- pg. 129
This quote stands out to me because it shows how Holden feel about growing up. Holden is constantly depressed by adults and teens, because to him they are a constant reminder that he is getting older and becoming a phony. When Holden is with or around children, however it reminds him he is still a kid and that he doesn't have to be so isolated and by him self. This also seems to bee why hes more comfortable around kids than adults. For example, he was never mean to Allie and Phoebe and never called them stupid or morons. He does, however constantly insult grown ups by insulting them directly or indirectly. Holden does not like the idea of growing up and becoming a phony, and being around kids helps Holden hold on to childhood.
You made an interesting point, saying Holden does not like the idea of growing up and becoming a phony, and also that being around kids helps him hold onto childhood. I agree, Holden finds children innocent, too young to be totally exposed and influenced by the phonies in the world. Holden likes being around them because they are essentially "phoniness- free". However, I disagree with your point about Holden not liking the idea of growing up and becoming a phony. I personally think Holden is very much in denial about the fact that he is a phony- he is everything he defines as phony. I think Holden is also oblivious to the frequent contradictions he makes, but at the same time, is struggling with his age- he is having a hard time making his transition from childhood to adulthood.
Delete"Boy, I felt miserable.I felt so depressed, you cant imagine.What I did, I started talking sort of out loud to Allie.I do that sometimes when I get very depressed".(110)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it shows how much saddens there is behind Allies death. I feel like theres moments where he feels extemely alone that he wishes Allie was there with him. For example, he talks about that day when him and Bobby were going to Lake Sedebego and Allie wanted to go but Holden said no because he was a child. However I feel like Holden wants to go back to that day and wishes that he could of taken him with him because now he says "when I get very depressed, I keep saying to him, okay. Go home and get your bike and meet me in front of Bobby's house. Hurry up". (110) This proves to me that he really misses his brother a lot especially when he's alone and now Holden just feels like going back in time to do things he wasnt able to do with Allie.
"It wasn't that I didn't use to take him with me when I went somewhere. I did. But that one day. I didn't" (pg110) .
ReplyDeleteAs I was reading the book and I read this part I stopped, and I felt bad for Holden, it made think of all the things we've been saying about Holden. I feel like he has this pain inside him, he walks around with this sad emotion that nobody could see because he makes sure people don't see it. I feel like he misses his brother so much and he wishes he could have him back. The fact that he didn't let him go out with him and Bobby specially sense he says "But that one day. I didn't" makes me realize how much Holden really regrets not taking him. I think that is causing him to walk around with this sad emotion which is why he keeps saying that his depressed throughout the book, he says what he wishes he would have said to Allie to make himself feel better. I feel like everybody has a reason for why they act the way they do, maybe Holden act the way he does because if this guilt and pain he has inside.
"I hate it if I'm eating bacon and eggs or something and somebody else is only eating toast and coffee." (122)
ReplyDeleteThis quote from the book really stood out to me because it stopped me from thinking that Holden is a spoiled brat. Yes, Holden does have lots of money, but he's also very aware of other people and he's concious of the fact that other people don't have the same opportunities as he does. For example, a little bit earlier in the book, Holden expressed how uncomfortable it made him that his roommate was embarrassed by his cheap suitcases, and Holden decided to put his own suitcases away to make his roommate more comfortable. He's constantly taking note of how much money people seem to have and instead of rolling his eyes at them or mocking them, he pitties them. Holden is becoming more open to readers about his soft side.
This line also stood out to me. I think that Holden isn't a spoiled brat,like you said, but I do think that Holden expects things to go his way. I don't mean thins like he doesn't care about people, but I think that he manipulates people so that they look just a little less important than him.
DeleteThis is a very interesting line. It does prove that Holden isn't a spoiled brat. Holden thinks about others around him. He does things that won't exactly make others feel bad. He may seem like he doesn't care, but deep down inside, he really does. Slowly, he's revealing more and more about himself and each piece he reveals about himself makes him seem like less of a bitter person. He's actually a real softy.
DeleteI also thought this was a very interesting quote. Not only does it show that he likes things "going his way", but it shows that he is a conformist and doesn't like being the only one to do something. This is something he would usually criticize someone else for, calling them a "phony" or fake.
Delete“In the first place, I hate actors. They never act like people. They just think they do. Some of the good ones do in a very slight way, but in a way that’s not fun to watch.” (130)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it made me wonder if Holden thinks that actors “never act like people” because they do not embody the phoniness that most people (in Holden’s opinion) actually have. And when Holden says they never act like people, and that they just think they do, does he really mean that these actors portray the genuine, ideal type of person Holden prefers? Then Holden goes on to say that some of the good actors act like real people, but it isn’t as entertaining. Does Holden mean that these actors really embrace the phoniness of the characters they play, which Holden finds unentertaining? If all the answers to these questions are yes, then Holden dislikes all actors because they either portray their characters as down to earth, genuine people, that are rare to actually come across in the real world, or they showcase the phoniness of the character, which Holden finds boring to watch because, as we all know, Holden detests phonies.
I agree with you, Anjali. In fact, I believe that Holden's dislike of phoneys and corny people actually reflects back onto himself. I think that Holden is phoney too, and he does not like those kinds of people because he doesn't like himself.
DeleteAnjali, your post really got me thinking with all the great questions. I think maybe what Holden despises about theatre is that they hide the truth of society. It is all an overly-positive perception of a world that in reality, is filled with phonies. Instead of embodying the phoniness as you said, they instead aim to please the audience with a utopian and, frankly, inaccurate view of what society is. Holden likes things for what they are so he can relate to them, and this may be why he hates actors, because they portray a perfect world of which he cannot relate to at all.
Delete"It wouldn't have been so bad, I don't think, if I hadn't had just my goddam pajamas on." (133 in the big book)
ReplyDeleteIn genral, I think that Holden likes to think of himself as the big macho person who is a lot braver and smarter than he actually is. This line added on to my brief. I laughed a little when I read this line because it is just so ridiculous that Holden always has to hide behind something. He cannot just own up to the fact that he was scared, he has to defend himself, by saying that wearing pajamas was making him weak. I have noticed him do thins often and I wonder what other excuses Holden will make, to better his self image, later in the book.
I agree with you completely. I want to add on to this by pointing out that whenever Holden is in sticky situations he points out the randomest things to either justify his actions or take away from what is actually going on. I think Holden has a hard time grasping the seriousness of things that should be taken seriously. I think this quote is an example of the more childish side of Holden, it shows his childish take on adult matters.
Delete"I hate actors. They never act like people. They just think they do. Some of the good ones do in a very slight way, but in a way that’s not fun to watch.” (130).
ReplyDeleteI found this quote interesting because Holden is, yet again, going off about another thing he hates. However, whether or not he realizes it, Holden is an actor all the time. He always is doing something different that's not really him, such as giving the name "Jim Steele" in the Lavender Room or "Rudolph Shmitt" (along with acting in many other ways, for example going on vacation, having a brain tumor, and Ms. Morrow's child being very popular and successful) on the train, or commonly acting a different age. Not only does he lie to others and, in a way, act as other people, he also acts to himself in weird ways. For example, back at Pencey, he randomly felt the need to act like he was blind. After he got slapped, he pretended he was shot by a bullet just like in the movies, which is also hates. "The goddamn movies. They can ruin you. I'm not kidding." (116).
I definitely agree with you, but I think a big part of the reason he hates actors is because of the change. I think Holden can't cope with the idea that people can just change themselves completely to be someone else, this leading to the many "phony" accusations. Also, personally, I think that the reason Holden lies and makes changes about himself, is to try to hold on to the few people he has in his life. Even people like Ackley and Stradlater take an important part in Holden's life, and them being In his life is important to Holden.
Delete"I spent a Kings random in just two lousy weeks"
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this line, I thought why, and how he spent most of his money in two weeks. I think that he must've spent most of it traveling and staying in New York for the time that he's "running away" from all of his problems. All the things that He's been spending his money on are all pointless and he just spent it on those things for happiness. For Example, he bought drinks in The Lavender Room for ladies hoping something would happen with them but he got rejected by them. Then he spends 10 dollars (which is a lot for the time period)
on just trying to talk with Sunny and getting rejected again. Then all the travel fees like the cabs and trains. You could tell he's just spending all his money trying to find happiness when in reality, you just can't BUY it. Even if his family is wealthy.
"Certain things they should stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and leave them alone." (136).
ReplyDeleteThis line here reminds me how Holden looks at changes in his life. Holden doesn't like change especially with the people that he knows and cares about. In a class discussion, we talked about how change makes him anxious and how he doesn't know how he is going to change his own life to turn it around and make it productive. Holden often remembers all of the great things that happened before changes in his life such as Allie's death and going to Pencey to be taken away from all of his old friends and "lovers". Holden also feels the fear of meeting new people as himself because he thinks that they may impact his life and reroute the current course. His fake personalities are made so that he can mask his identity and not make it known that he doesn't want anything to do with these peoples except for the night where he will try to have sex with them. Holden just wants everything to be as it was when he was but a young boy, when everything in his life was really looking up, before any sort of change.
I really liked this part of the book when he was talking about how the museum itself will never change and it will be exactly the same each time you go back but you will have changed each time. Holden almost has these two separate lives that he has lived, before Allie and after Allie. I think before Allie died he probably embraced change and was more of an enthusiastic optimistic kid. After he died Holden became angry and judgmental and completely opposed to any change.
Delete"I still had my arms folded and all. God, what a jerk I was." (114)
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me wonder if Holden doesn't feel comfortable standing up for himself. I think that Holden doesn't want to do anything about this situation because he feels that he will just make everything worse. Holden probably doesn't feel comfortable in his own skin and that is why he is not doing anything to protect himself. This relates back to when we were discussing Holden's hatred of social norms, and how he still goes along with them, anyway.
Hi Megan, I disagree with what you said about the quote because in this particular situation Holden was faced between strangers that he didn't know. He was just frightened something terrible would happen to him since he was messing with a prostitute and a guy that is way older than Holden was. Its not that he wasn't comfortable in his own skin he was just terribly frightened by the fact that he was being robbed in his own hotel room. He was alone, no one could help him. "God, I was scared." (114) This was said in that exact situation showing that holden wasn't comfortable in his own skin, but he was terrified completely by what was going on.
Delete"It didn't seem at all like Christmas was coming soon. It didn't seem like anything was coming soon"(118).
ReplyDeleteHolden is just looking at how empty and lonely the park feels but I feel like this relates to more then just the park. Holden does not know who he wants to be, he is lost. He doesn't feel like his life is going anywhere, he can't find his sister, his brother is dead, and he can't go talk to Jane. Holden is alone and through this loneliness he seems to open up more and he realizing more. He has only been alone and the book has only spanned about a day so far and we have learned so much about him even though he continues to lie to others and himself. This also relates back to the ducks and the fish in the lagoon. Holden wants to be able to fly away to warmer place like the ducks but he is frozen in the lagoon like the fish.
I totally agree with you on your statement. However, I do think that Holden is starting to realize who he is. Holden does begin to know what type of person he is even though he is in a mess. Holden has talked before, about how he's "yellow", which means he is a coward. He says that he's the type of person who would want to punch someone, but would only think about it, not actually do it. He figures out that he's a coward because of his encounter with Sally and Maurice. Maurice pins him to the wall, but instead of defense, he thinks about suicide. Holden figures out that he is a coward compared to Maurice. On the other hand, he figures out that he has been changing so much. He remarks that every time he went to the museum, he felt that he had changed, while the museum had stayed exactly the same. To conclude, Holden is lost up in his life, however, at the end of the day, he figures out a piece of him, while the rest of the puzzle is missing.
Delete"I pictured myself... with my automatic... six shots right through his fat hairy belly"
ReplyDeleteThis kind of made me feel concerned. This is adding onto to what Mandy said about Holden needing help. Throughout the whole book, Holden is always calling people phonies and he also mentions feeling depressed. Holden doing something unthinkable is not far-fetched and the scene with Maurice definitely make the situation any better.
This scene also reminded me of the Sandy Hook school shooting in a way. The criminal kills the people and commits suicide afterward. This is another reason why I'm concerned about Holden and he needs to seek help right way.
I understand why you'd be concerned. It's extremely unlike Holden to even think of hurting another person, especially in the way his describes it now. However, the kind of help he needs isn't just any help. It's help from somebody that knows his by heart, inside-out. He's gone a long way without somebody to talk to, and now, I think all his emotions are building up. If this were to end badly, than it would be colossal.
DeleteI agree with you and Adrian. I think that from nobody caring about him for a long time, he feels that no one is there for him and he has no one to talk to. This could lead to something big and he needs to get his emotions out before he could do something that he would regret. He is always talking about how depressed he is. and if he is, why doesn't he get help, or at least try to?
Delete"Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine. What I did, I started talking, sort of out loud, to Allie. I do that sometimes when I get depressed," (p.110).
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because it shows that Holden is very depressed. He doesn't seem very happy. Maybe it's because he lost some of the people that he loved. Talking to Allie seems to really calm him down. Sometimes, all you need to do is vent to make yourself feel better. Allie's death really seemed to really effect Holden since they seemed very close. Perhaps Holden really misses talking to people that he loves and cares for, such as Allie, Phoebe, and Jane. Holden really needs to find someone that he could talk to and care for and will do the same to him.
"I figured maybe I'd give old Jane a buzz and see if she was home for vacation yet. So I went in a phone booth and called her up." (pg. 129)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because we know that Holden has avoided speaking with Jane many times throughout the book. Both in person, and over the phone. A question that I now ask myself is, What changed? Why and how did Holden work up enough courage to finally call her? Maybe it was partly because he was feeling less depressed at that moment. Or maybe he was feeling so lonely that he just needed to talk to someone. Either one, it is really interesting to see how much Holden's character has already changed since the beginning of the book.
I also was really interested in this part. And mostly for the same reasons that you were. Up until that point, Holden had put off talking to Jane. His excuse was that he wasn't in the mood. What put him in the mood? I really hope we figure it out.
Delete"What I really felt like doing, though, was committing suicide. I felt like jumping out the window" (117).
ReplyDeleteHolden doesn't know who he is and who he wants to be. Holden has plenty of worries, which forces him to the thought of "committing suicide." Holden can't find his sister, his brother is dead, he worries about the date with Sally, and he can't go talk to Jane. This is exactly why Holden, at this very young age, has white hair. Holden doesn't have 99 problems, he has 100 problems. However, now Holden does begin to know what time of person he is even though he is in a mess. Holden has talked before, about how he's "yellow", which means he is a coward. He says that he's the type of person who would want to punch someone, but would only think about it, not actually do it. He figures out that he's a coward because of his encounter with Sally and Maurice. Maurice pins him to the wall, but instead of defense, he thinks about suicide. Holden figures out that he is a coward compared to Maurice. On the other hand, he figures out that he has been changing so much. He remarks that every time he went to the museum, he felt that he had changed, while the museum had stayed exactly the same. To conclude, Holden is lost up in his life, however, at the end of the day, he starts realizing a piece of him, while the rest of the puzzle is missing.
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ReplyDelete"Then I hung up. She gave me a pain in the ass, but she was very good looking." (119)
ReplyDeleteThis line really stood out to me because Holden always complains about phonies, meanwhile he's acting like one himself. He doesn't love Sally at all, he even says that she's a pain in the ass. This line really shocks me because how can he be judging others about them being phonies while he is one himself. Holden confuses me sometimes because he is so hypocritical and needs to really start looking at himself from another perspective. Holden's actions really confuse me sometimes, but the also show another side of him and that side is that he's just growing up and trying to figure out who he is going to be. Right now Holden is just confused and always contradicting himself, and this shows that there may be some mishaps when it comes to teenagers figuring out who they really are.
Yess!! I totally agree . I feel like hes always judging someone even if he knows them or not. I wonder why does he judge others and not him self. He acts like hes better than others when he says that hes sexy and not considering himself phony or a moron.
DeleteI definitely agree with you and like the point that you brought up about how Holden is just growing up. It also confuses me, because Holden is judging people for no reason and the fact that he is just growing up doesn't give him the right to judge people that have done nothing to him. I feel like Holden doesn't realize that he is being a jerk.
Delete" The thing is, it drives me crazy if somebody gets killed- especially somebody very smart and entertaining and all- and its somebody else's fault. Romeo and Juliet, at least it was their own fault." (pg. 124)
ReplyDeleteI think this quote really shows a lot about Holden's opinions on certain people, and himself. I think Holden feels a connection towards Mercutio, he feels that he understands what Mercutio is going through because in a way Holden is Mercutio. Holden feels underestimated and undervalued. He talks about how ridiculous it is that Mercutio, a very smart and entertaining person, was just killed because of someone else's fault. This connection with Holden and Mercutio, in my opinion, connects strongly with Holden and Allie. After Allie died, Holden thought it was ridiculous that such a smart, good person was just killed. That led Holden to think that if Allie, who was a smart, and good person, could just die, and then Mercutio, who was a smart and entertaining person, could just die, then what would happen to him, who's neither of those things. I think Holden is starting to feel more and more concerned on where he's going, or going to go, if at any point it could all be gone.
Let me start off by saying, I love this quote. I completely agree with your analysis. Wen I was reading this line, I automatically thought it was about Allie, but I do like how you referred it to Holden as well. It is a different outlook. When Holden talks about his little brother he has nothing but good things to say and he basically praises him. When such a smart, entertaining, lovable character like Mercutio is killed off he has reason to be angry. When Holden says it is somewhat Romeo's fault he can be comparing himself to Romeo because he feels guilty for the death of his brother and Holden has recently saying more suicidal things like I would jump off the building if people wouldn't look. At some point everything can be gone and this can be why Holden is so keen to everything around him, he doesn't want anything to pass him by. But when he does this, he isn't living.
Delete"What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide. I probably would have done it, too, If I'd been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed
ReplyDelete(p.117)
This line stands out to me because the irony behind it really confuses me. I find it really strange that Holden takes something as serious as suicide and makes more about other people rather than himself. I think that Holden really suffers from depression and doesnt know how to deal with his issues. This quote shows me how after going through something traumatic Holden doesnt know how to handle his emotions.
"he was-it's hard to explain. He was very smart and entertaining and all. The thing is, it drives me crazy if somebody gets killed-especially somebody very smart and entertaining and all-and it's somebody else's fault" (111). I think that this line is so important to the story. Our curriculum is based off of self discovery and the question of who we are. Holden is a perfect example of somebody who clearly doesn't know a thing about who he is. A really helpful way to figure out, or begin to figure it out, is to make connections to people who don't need to figure it out. Holden understands Tybalt for two reasons. One is that he says that it's not fair when someone's death isn't in their own hands, like Allie's. The other is that he describes Tybalt as smart and entertaining. Both of which describe Holden. I think that this line is an important moment of self discovery of Holden, or at least a hint to get us closer to figuring out who he is.
ReplyDelete"I felt like jumping out the window. I probably would've done it, too, if I'd been sure somebody'd cover me up as soon as I landed"
ReplyDeleteThis quote brings up a different side of Holden I haven't seen in the book until now. It makes me wonder if this thought has crossed his mind before. With the loss of Allie and constant failure in school or the sudden abuse and feel of loneliness has. Although Holden is home back in New York and not in "phony" Pennsylvania it still seems as if he's an outsider in his own world. He wants to jump probably considering the fact that nobody would care if he did yet he doesn't, because he thinks people would care what he looked looked if he did. Holden cares what people thinks and whether or not he's aware of what they're saying he dislikes being judged, a contradiction to what he does on a regular basis.
" Especially if I see millions of people standing in one of those long, terrible lines, all the way down the block, waiting with terrific patience for seat and all. Boy, I couldn't get off that god damned Broadway fast enough." (Chapter 16 pg. 129)
ReplyDeleteHolden has two hours before his date with Sally Hayes. He decides to wonder around Broadway because he says he hasn't been there in a while. Recently throughout the chapters Holden has been getting very depressed and morbid about everything he encounters.This quote is a perfect example of Holden's perspective.He refers to the people rushing to the movies as "longing to arrive to see the film", he says that this depresses hell out of him. When he says that they're waiting on the "long, terrible lines" these people appear to be excited or happy for something that he doesn't believe people should be excited for at all. I think that Holden has an anger towards people who have the certainty of what they want to do. This is displayed again when Stradlater is described as a stereotype which Holden is against. I also feel that Holden doesn't let himself get too excited about anything. With the death of his brother, Allie, he became wary that nothing is permanent. So, why be happy when something you love can be gone in the next instant? This can also be an explanation as to why Holden doesn't let himself get close to Jane. He doesn't want to see her disappear from his life as Allie did.
"'Leave me alone. Get the hell out of my room.'"
ReplyDeleteThis moment in the book really demonstrated a tough scene for Holden. So many of his emotions that he had held through Jane, Stadlater, Sunny, and Maurice were finally escaping him. However this "breakthrough" didn't go the best way it could've. It was clear that the brutality Holden experienced from Maurice and Sunny, WAS enough for him. He COULDN'T pull through it. That's why he cried. Too many situations are going on in his mind, and Holden is ruining himself by not talking to somebody about it. I believe that in the next few scenes, we will be able to really identify Holden. I say this from experience. Whenever I've gone through a really tough phase in my life, I usually try to find how I can avoid that situation later in life. I hope Holden will do the same.
"I didn't much want to see it, but I knew old Sally, the queen of phonies, would start drooling all over the place when I told her I had tickets for that, because the Lunts were in it and all."(pg 152)
ReplyDeleteThis line stands out to me a lot because of Holden's constant use of calling people phonies. It also confuses me, because he surrounds himself with people that he calls phonies and then complains about them. He called Sally up knowing what she is like, and then complains about her. What Holden doesn't realize is that he acts like a phony a lot. For example when he says he is glad to meet somebody even if he is not. (pg 87) It just confuses me that he hates phonies so much, but he seems to act like one.
"If you do something too good, then, after a while, if you don't watch it, you start showing off." (140)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because I feel that Holden feels like this about himself and he doesn't really accept himself. I think that this relates back to when Holden was at Ernie's club and he thought he was showing off because the mirror was tilted towards his hands. Holden feels that successful people are show-offs because they do better and have better lives them. He likes disadvantaged people more because it's easier to feel bad for them and he feels like he is obliged to. I think that Holden is sorry that he is wealthy and he is somewhat ashamed because he is putting himself into that sort of category of someone that is stuck up and snotty.
"It was really nice sight seeing, if you know what I mean. In a way it was sord of depressing, too. Because you wondered what the hell would happen to all of them, after they got out of school and College I mean."
ReplyDeleteAfter I read this line it immediately jumped out at me because he described another thing as being depressing. In my previous blog I mentioned how he was showing many signs of depression. Then again in these chapters. You could already tell that Holden is really depressed, and nothing about the girls situation really seems depressing right now, so I wonder. Is Holden trying to cope with his depression another way, as in bringing other people down with him? Even though in this line he doesn't tell them what he thinks on the situation. Maybe since he isn't finding many ways to be happy he's finding ways to try and make his situation not seem as bad.
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