For tonight's blog, please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
Format:
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Question:
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"The terrible part, though, is that I meant it when I asked her. That's the terrible part. I swear to God I'm a madman." -page 174
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why was Holden so invested in his idea to move away with Sally and then why does he denounce his idea as "terrible" later?
I think that Holden is seeking an escape from by any means possible. He doesn't really care if he's with Sally Hayes or an ignorant "phony" as long as he can escape Manhattan and New York City, and all the social pressures that come with living there. Holden's in a huge city surrounded by thousands of people but he still can't find one person to truly be intimate with. His outburst with Sally was a plea for someone to validate his feelings of loneliness, rejecting social norms, and wanting to escape his life but Sally suppressed his idea of moving away from the city with her and that's why I think he denounced himself later; by writing himself off as a "madman" to the reader he avoided the pain he really felt by being so rejected by Sally and being shot back to reality. Another way to look at these is lines is that Holden is being completely serious about what he said to Sally and is expressing genuine pain for his rejection. Maybe Holden's off-putting tone is just his personal way of expressing disbelief and reflection and he's not trying to hide anything deeper. Holden moves on from ideas very quickly and maybe his way of coping with the washout of his idea to move away with Sally is by just calling it "terrible" and getting over with it. He's done this same thing before when he imagined himself killing Maurice like in a movie and then at the end of this thought he just let it go because he knew it was completely fantasy like his idea of moving away with Sally was. Overall, the quote could either show Holden's quick instinct to move on from rejection or his hidden emotional turmoil over it.
I think Holden likes to run away from the situation a lot and tries to find loop-holes to cover it up or never thing about it again like running away with Sally Hayes. If he ran away with Sally Hayes he would have something to do in life instead of just being alone all the time. Also, he would be much happier with being with a girl who he liked which made him not lonely anymore which stopped him from being depressed often.
DeleteI slightly disagree with the fact that Holden said this to hide rejection. I think that Holden believed that his idea was later "terrible" because he asked it to the wrong girl. Holden did not necessarily care about feeling rejected but more about wasting his feelings on some random girl. The way Holden cherishes literature leads me to believe that he wouldn't be one to throw his words out like that without meaning. I feel like the delay in being able to speak to Jane led to the avalanche of feelings he bursted towards Sally. In my eyes, calling himself "a madman" sprung from the fact that he keeps pushing back the call to Jane, while driving himself crazy from telling no one.
DeleteI think that's a really interesting point. However, I'm not sure that if he said that to Jane she wouldn't have so different a reaction. What Holden said may have been kind of sweet and came from a good part of him, it was out of line and unrealistic. I think that while it's fine for him to imagine running away with Sally, bringing that concept from his mind into reality is pure fantasy and instead of living in his head, Holden needs to live his real life. He has to forget about running away from the city and just understand that he's burning all his bridges and if he doesn't change his ways, soon he won't have anyone left to turn to-not even someone as "phony" as Sally Hayes.
DeleteThe person he would be talking to is JANE. She is the different one, the understanding one, not the one who would completely reject him. Jane would help him through his problem and not laugh and say "how sweet". You mention Holden "needing to live his real life and forget about running away", but the whole point of the novel is that teenagers shouldn't have to do that. We should be ourselves, our wild crazy selves for as long as possible, because in a matter of a few years, we will have to become society's slaves. We will have to become adults. Jane preserves this teenage side of Holden and so his outburst was meant just for her, the only person who gets it.
Delete“She kept walking ahead of me, so that I’d see how cute her little ass looked” (143)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden presume that things are done in relation to him?
Holden does this same thing when he explains why Dick Slagle put his clothes on the rack after Holden took his off. Holden says, “the reason he did it, it took me a while to find out, was because he wanted people to think my bags were his”. Knowing what an unreliable narrator Holden is, I cannot accept his reasoning for others’ behavior as truth. But then I got to thinking about Holden as a whole. He is this non conformist who hates anyone who is fake and plays games before your eyes. Additionally, in class, we have uncovered the fact that Holden does not want any pressure or responsibility to be a boring adult without innocence or the license to go wild. However, in both of these quotes, Holden is showing that he likes the attention of people caring about what he thinks of them. In a way, this non conformist is seeking the one thing society brings: acceptance.
I agree with you. A main theme in the story is Holdens inability to form mature relationships, both platonic and romantic. Basically, he views all the female characters in the novel, aside from Pheobe in one to two ways: either he sees them as dull, boring, "Phony" etc such as (Sally Hayes), or he sees them as beautiful, higher beings than he himself such as (Jane Gallegher).
DeleteI completely agree with you and you make a good point when you say Holden seeks acceptance. I think Holden seeks acceptance so he could have the assurance that he has a place of belonging. Right now, we know that Holden is an outside, he isolates himself, yet is seeking the right company. Maybe having a place to belong wouldn't isolate him.
DeleteI agree with you with the idea of Holden "liking the attention" from other people. He does all these things like asking people to go out for a drink, or dinner with them. He donates money to these two nuns, he helps a kid tighten their skates, etc. Holden does all these things for attention. He clearly is a lost kid in the city trying to find his way, and yes of course, he likes to think that people care about him, and that things are done in relation to him.
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ReplyDelete" "Take cars," I said it in this quiet voice. "Take most people, they're crazy about cars. They worry if they get a little scratch on them... I'd rather have a goddam horse. A horse is at least human, for God's sake. "(145)
ReplyDeleteHolden dislikes people who are "crazy about cars" because, it is a sign that they care more for how good they look in front of others, than who they are inside. However, a horse is the complete opposite. Its simple, innocent, and in Holdens own words, "at least human" then compared with the metal contraptions which were cars in the 1950's. The idea of owning a horse instead of a car represents for Holden at the time when things were more simple. Being attached to a horse seems much more amusing and satisfying to Holden. Holden longs to remain or wants to stay in a childlike state, where his life is simple, and not spoiled by twisted values.He wants to be "The Catcher In The Rye" living forever in a happy simplicity, his own responsibility is the job of guarding innocent people like himself. This makes his point that his world is full of "Phony" people. Basically, what Holden is trying to say to Sally is that people are never satisfied with there material possessions. (He is comparing the metaphoric purchase of a horse to boyhood and owning a car which leads to manhood"
I agree with your point on how cars back in those days, Holden thought, made people try to look good but I slightly disagree with the fact of a horse being satisfying to him. I think that Holden with the horse example that he used is trying to make a point that he again wants to seperate himself from the social stereotypes that surround him, especially in a technological city such as New York City. A horse to Holden probably represents difference in personalities and lifestyles from everybody else. He wants to basically be the diamond shining in the rough of all the other people that surround him in the world.
DeleteI agree with your point about cars representing how people put too much value in material possessions but I'm also very curious about how Holden compared cars to horses and said that at least horses are "human". Horses are obviously not a very efficient or common form of transportation but Holden would rather ride on horses than cars because horses are free, they have spirit and they're "human" because they show affection and receive affection unlike a metal car that can be used to boast having money and being snazzy and then just be discarded to get a newer car. The way Holden describes rather having a horse than a car represents how he's against social norms and how we wishes he could have a simpler life, where he could just run away with Sally from all his problems instead of living in a community where material possessions and money are prized above all else.
DeleteI definitely agree with your point about how people care more about how they look in front of others and Holden doesn't like that. I think that your point shows what a hypocrite Holden is. Holden doesn't like when people care about the way the look on the outside, but Holden is always talking about being scared about wearing his red hunting hat because he feels he will be judged. In those times, how is it fair of Holden to judge the people who care about their appearance when he cares just as much?
Delete"You could tell he was very ashamed of his parents and all, because they said "he don't," "she don't" and stuff like that and they weren't very wealthy..." (150)
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden wrapped in these stereotypical ideas of being intellectual if he himself failed out of four high schools and is about being different from stereotypes in the world?
I think Holden is wrapped up in this stereotypical idea of people being intellectual because Holden feels lonely sometimes and wants to have a good conversation with somebody. The intellectuality in a person really connects and relates to how he wants people to respect him and his beliefs and ideas. He feels as if the person is intellectual the person can be really complex and sophisticated to respect his ideas as well about society and the world that surrounds him. He basically likes somebody that respects his ideas and won't have him feeling lonely and on his own because he is already. Maybe Holden likes intellectuality in a person because they're not insecure about themselves and selfish to people like himself. For example, relating back to the scene when Stradlater is going out with Jane someplace, Holden probably thinks Stradlater is being a jerk and being full of himself because he isn't as smart or intellectual as Holden. He probably hates people who are full of themselves as well.
“She looked terrific. She really did.”
ReplyDeleteIn these chapters Holden goes on a date with Sally Hayes which results in him offending Sally a great deal and them never talking to each other again. Holden goes with Sally to watch a show and to Radio City for ice scatting. Then after Holden was ice scatting he brought up this very touchy topic with Sally which was if she wanted to run away with him from New York and live their lives of happiness. Sally didn’t want to do this because; she didn’t have an education, didn’t graduate high school yet, is unemployed, and they don’t have enough money to live on their own. Holden in response says that they both don’t even like school and that getting this job and a Cadillac was being phony… After that Holden being very persuasive lets his anger go and calls Sally a royal pain in the ass. He says sorry to Sally like a madman, but she doesn’t even want to talk to him anymore and he laughs about this and makes the situation even worse for himself. At the end of this chapter Holden leaves Sally alone and goes out of Radio City. Holden again decides who to call after leaving Sally, and calls a person he knows who attends Columbia University now whose name is Carl Luce. Being so lonesome and depressed he makes an arrangement with him at the Wicked Bar.
Question: Why would Holden call Sally a pain in the ass, and after laugh at her?
I think this is a great question. Although you do explain his reaction, I think that he mostly did this because he didn't think the situation was ridiculous, but more how he was dealing with it was ridiculous. When he called Sally a pain in the ass, he kept apologizing franticly. This made it seem to himself that he was kissing the ass of a pain in the ass, and he didn't want to do that, so he just laughed at himself for his behavior.
DeleteQuestion: What does Holden think about himself personally?
ReplyDelete"I told her I loved her and all. It was a lie, of course, but the thing is, I meant it when I said it."
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden use "love" so loosely?
I think Holden uses love so loosely in this passage because he's never felt love. He hasn't really experienced a situation where he has loved a girl. He also doesn't really know the value of love because of this, which would cause him to also not know that love is a stronger word than he thinks. Since he has not loved anyone, he seems to be more lonely than he has usually been in the past. There are a few examples, like when he talks about Jane, a girl who he seems to like a lot and is longing for her to be there with him. He also is much more easily attracted to girls than normal. He hangs out and talks to girls a lot just because they are attractive, like Sally Hayes who he said he loved even though he actually didn't. He also says that he means it when he loves her even though it was a lie, which shows confusion in what he's thinking and that he has no idea what he is saying. Since this is the case, he uses terms like "love" much more loosely.
I also noticed this about Holden while reading and I agree with you. I don't think Holden has ever felt true love before, so he doesn't really know what it feels like. I also think his usage of the word, "love" shows his maturity level. Or his immaturity for this matter. I think this reveals a lot about the fact that he still just a kid and that he is very immature.
DeleteI agree with you Reuben. I also do think that its because he's an inexperienced teen. Holden would literally do anything to get away from isolation. In this case when he said he meant it when he said he loved her, I think t was because of how attractive Sally probably looked. He has no idea at all how to use the term 'love'. Why doesn't he know? It's because of how lonely he is and how Holden never had the proper opportunity to understand how to treat a woman and their nature (preference) of being treated.
DeleteI agree with this completely. Holden gets so caught in emotions that he doesn't even know, he gets himself in trouble. He is very immature, and isn't ready to handle the emotions he is now feeling. He confuses being attracted to a girl with falling in love with her. Honestly, he doesn't even know what love means.
Delete"She looked terrific. She really did. She had on this black coat and sort of a black beret. She hardly ever wore a hat, but that beret looked nice. The funny part is, I felt like marrying her the minute I saw her. I'm crazy. I didn't even like her much, and yet all of a sudden I felt like I was in love with her and wanted to marry her. I swear to God I'm crazy. I admit it." (pg. 138).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden quickly change his mind about his attitude towards Sally when he actually sees her?
I think that Holden quickly changes his mind because he is still an amateur and still has not experienced true feelings. Therefore, everything he sees, especially with women seems attractive Holden regarded Sally as a phony one too many times. However, when he sees her wearing nice clothing it appeals to him and he has an attraction towards it. This is another example of Holden's loneliness. He has never actually experienced anything "real" in a relationship. Therefore, he has no idea of what to think of. He sees relationships as a way to break out of his isolation. Holden would do anything to break out of this shell. He uses a very judgmental form to do so. He uses physical appearances as the key to who he should socialize with. Holden says it himself that he didn't even really like Sally all that much but when he saw her, he fell in love with her because of how beautiful she looked. Holden has no idea how to even treat women, he says some crude things to Sally then leaves her alone. Holden is striving for attention from someone and he is picking on anyone that is appealing to him especially women.
This quote stuck out to me. I agree with you for the response, and I would also like to add on something. I would like to add on that he may change his mind because previously in the book, he was drawn towards the prettier girls that he has seen. Like you mentioned, he is young, so he is probably biased towards someone pretty than he is towards girls' personalities.
Delete"I was getting excited as hell, the more I thought about it, and took old sally's goddamn hand" Pg. 146
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden want to leave the city?
Throughout the book Holden seems to admire/envy innocence. He sees and enjoys the innocence in the kid in his own wold singing catcher in the rye. He is fond of Pheobe and Allie because of their innocence. It seems that this idea of running away to the country side is an attempt to preserve his own innocence. As shown later in the chapter, his biggest fear is losing his own innocence and becoming a phony. He is worried about growing up and becoming another grown-up phony. He doesn't want to read the paper and wash his car and bet on horse races. He doesn't want to grow up to be another conformist. So just as he runs away from his problems and emotions, he wants to run away from society to preserve his innocence.
I agree with you and I want to expand on why Holden wants to leave the city, particularly New York City. I know as a teenager living here, I have experienced and viewed many things that have made me a wiser person and definitely more aware of the world around me, which could be viewed as losing my naivety. Perhaps Holden believes that if he escapes the city, he is escaping the inevitable "growing up" that occurs, and the stripping of innocence. If he finds a home in the country, surrounded by peace and nature, he believes he can stop time and let the world go on without him.
DeleteI agree with you, but I also think that your question could be answered differently. Holden's plan to leave the city is his attempt at an escape; not only from the city and all of the qualities of the city that he hates, but also all of his problems that he so desperately wishes to get away from. Holden is looking for any way possible to get away from the problems he hides from, and maybe leaving the city, in his mind, is a possibility for getting away from the problems that eat him up inside. One thing that we've learned about Holden is that he's very scared to face the truth. This illusive, isolated place outside the city could be his sanctuary. A sanctuary for his lies to not be lies anymore, for the things he wants to believe about himself to be reality. Now, granted, this theory is a little far-fetched, but Holden definitely has some form of escape on his mind with his idea to leave the city.
Delete"You should've seen the way they said hello. You'd have thought they hadn't seen each other in twenty years. You'd have thought they'd taken baths in the same bathtub or something when they were little kids. Old buddyroos. It was nauseating... His name was George something--I don't even remember--and he went to Andover. Big, big deal," (141).
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden so hateful towards George?
I believe Holden's hateful thoughts towards George, among other people, stems from an underlying jealousy that even he doesn't realize is there. George has things that Holden doesn't, and that creates tension between them. George's flannel suit and checkered vest screams "strictly Ivy League," as Holden says, which is close enough when we learn that George goes to what is arguably the best prep school in the world. Holden just got kicked out of Pencey, so his success in another school or college is quite out of reach. Another blow to Holden's ego is the fact that Sally is out with him, but spends a large amount of their time talking to George and leaving Holden to his thoughts. His thoughts, which include calling George a jerk, a phony, and a bastard. Another example of Holden's jealousy was the first night he stayed at the hotel, when he wound up at Ernie's. The majority of the people there were with dates, which highlighted Holden's loneliness. But instead of admitting that, he made fun of the conversations of the couples around him, claiming that he was "surrounded by jerks," and calling them funny-looking and boring. Overall, I believe one of the main reasons Holden is ever rude or hateful towards someone is because he is jealous of them for whatever reason.
"I told her I loved her and all. It was a lie of course..." (139)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden lie about things that are so serious and meaningful?
This quote came from Holden on page 139 when he was going to the theater with Sally in the taxi. As I was reading this quote, I had a question about Holden. My question was "Why does Holden lie about things that are so serious and meaningful?" In this case, the lie was that he loved Sally. Although Holden said that he did mean it when he said it, it was a lie because he didn't mean it the way Sally interpreted it, which is that he truly meant it. As I was reading the rest of the Chapter 17 and Chapter 18, I found an answer to my question. The answer I found is that Holden is longing for a relationship so much, that he is willing to do anything it takes to have one, even if it means telling a lie. At the moment that Holden said this, he realized how good it felt to have someone that cared about him and to have someone to care about. Furthermore, it felt good to him just have someone to spend time, because as we discussed in class today, Holden is a very lonely person. When Holden lied, he knew that it did temporarily make him feel better, so he probably didn't give his lie a second thought. Another reason that I think Holden lies about things that are so serious and meaningful is because when he lies about small stuff, such as his name, nothing seems to go seriously wrong. Therefore, he probably figures that the same consequences apply to everything, even lying about something important. This is the answer that I found to my question.
"I don't get hardly anything out of anything. I'm in sad shape. I'm in lousy shape."
ReplyDelete(P. 131)
Why does Holden fail to get anything out of life and his experiences?
I think this relates to his depression. This time it's not his self contradiction or his lack of confidence. His constant state of depression is what holds him back from life experiences. He is always so depressed that no good things make it through to his mind, only sad, annoying, and "phony" things. And this filter on the world will only continue to block him from enjoying life until he changes his ways. If he doesn't face his problems, if he keeps running, his life will only get worse. It is up to Holden to see the good in the world, and not just things that make him angry, sad, or annoyed.
I agree that Holden runs away from his problems. I think that his depression clouds his vision of the world and his environment makes him think of unhappy things. I think that moving out in a new environment will help his mental state where he can "start over." I also think that if he deals with his problems he can see the world in a better way and he can be more optimistic.
Delete"I didn't even like her much, and yet all of a sudden I felt like I was in love with her and wanted to marry her."
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Does appearance make Holden change his mind about people (mainly girls)?
I think that appearance changes Holden's mind because he is impulsive and is quick to say things. Also, later in the book he says he wants to move to Massachusetts or Vermont and live there with Sally and told it to her with complete honesty. This was very impulsive because he thought of it at that very moment and if he looked back he will see how crazy he sounded. Going back to her appearance, he said he wanted to marry her because of her looks, he didn't even talk to her yet and he said he was in love with her. After talking to her he finds that she is phony and "a royal pain in the ass." I think that the only reason he went on the date was because she was good looking. I do think that looks cause Holden to think of people in a different way even if he hasn't met them which causes him to avoid people because of their looks.
"'No, there wouldn't be. There wouldn't be oodles of places to go to at all. It'd be entirely different,' I said. I was getting depressed as hell again." (133).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why did Holden have a significant change in mood after Sally's response to his proposal?
Answer: I believe that Holden was just extremely disappointed. For one thing, Sally turned down his proposal, not only rejecting it but pointing out various flaws that competed with Holden's idea. This brings me to my next point, where I believe that Holden now sees Sally as one of those people who want him to fit the norms of society, who want him to go to college and become an adult, which is exactly what he refuses to do. Those people who try to tell him how he should be, are exactly the kind of people he diverts from. It made him sad she didn't seem to care about his feelings, just like the others. Holden may also be disappointed in the fact that he and Sally simply couldn't connect on an intellectual level, seeing as a companion is what he seeks for. After realizing that Sally wasn't the person he expected nor was she able to give him what he needed, he backed out and his mood at the beginning of the date was absent.
I agree with this answer. I agree that Holden had feelings for Sally and I think through her rejection Holden is extremly let down. I think Holden had a lot of feelings for Sally and I think that through her rejecting him he is extremly sad. Holden struggles to get attention from people no matter how much he pays or how hard he tries. Holden struggles for attention but can just never get it.
Delete“The funny part is, I felt like marrying her the minute I saw her. I’m crazy. I didn’t even like her much, and yet all of a sudden I felt like I was in love with her and wanted to marry her. I swear to God I’m crazy. I admit it. (p.138)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why is Holden so quick to say things he doesn’t mean?
I believe that Holden is the type of person to judge too quickly. Yes, Sally was an attractive girl to him and thats what made him crazy about her. He starts babbling on how he wants to move another state with her and tells her that he’s in love with her. Not surprisingly, later on Holden comes to the conclusion that Sally is just another “phony,” and even insults her saying that she’s “a royal pain in the ass.” We will never really know why Holden is so quick to say things he doesn’t mean, but it isn’t the first time it had happened. He says things he doesn’t mean quick, and is a terrific constant liar. He does it because he is caught up in the moment, trying to escape certain situations.
I believe that Holden is saying things he doesn’t mean to say because he is still trying to figure out who he is as a young adult and he doesn’t even seem to love himself. How can Holden learn to love someone if he doesn’t love himself?
DeleteIn the beginning of chapter 17, as Holden is patiently waiting for Sally, he started to look at the girls waiting for their friends to arrive and he starts judging them, “Girls with their legs crossed, girls with terrific legs, girls with lousy legs, girls that looked like swell girls, girls that look like they’d be bitches if you knew them…” In class today we were also referring to how Holden is noticing and judging everything. For example, the poor man with his hat and the nuns with their “cheap” suitcases. How would Holden feel if he were the one to be targeted with questions based on his appearance?
ReplyDelete"I have an idea, Lets go ice skating at radio city! You mean now?"
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Does Holden drop his beliefs when it comes to being with a pretty girl?
We already dicussed how Holden contradicts himself all the time. Earlier in the book (pg 77) he's with the girls and he's saying that the girls really want to go to radio city! He cant believe it... he thinks that the girls are phony because they want to go to radio city. He thinks radio city is a very mainstream place to go, and Holden is very very anti mainstream. Holden likes to be different then everyone else because it leaves him more room to judge everyone. When everyone wants to go to Radio City all the time. Holden being Holden doesnt want to be like everyone else and doesnt naturally hates the idea of Radio city.
Yet now the contradiction...
When with the girl Sally that Holden clearly finds extremly attractive Holdens attitude completly changes. Holden goes from being the kid that hates everything that is normal such as going to Radio City to the kid that will do whatever the girl wants to do to please her. Holden clearly attracted to this girl is doing a lot to get her attention, taking her to the movies, taking her ice skating. Holden is really into this girl... Keep in mind that shortly earlier in the book Holden hated the idea of going to Radio City even other people going there. And now Holden himself is going to Radio City taking Sally Ice Skating Holden is clearly lulled by this girl... he gave into going to this place that he hates because this attractive girl insisted.
In conclusion I think that even though Holden likes to be different then everyone else he adapts his beliefs to satisfy his personal needs and to get attention.
I completely agree and even though Holden goes throughout the book saying he despises when people have attention or “know” they have attention , that’s the one thing he envies. Especially now since Holden doesn't have anyone I feel like to hang out with anybody that pays him enough attention he’d go against every single one of his previous “beliefs’ if he had too. Like he said, he only has about three people in his address book on his phone. So at this point, I think he just takes what he can get.
Delete"We horsed around a little bit in the cab on the way over to the theatre. At first she didn't want to, because she had her lipstick on and all, but I was being seductive as hell and she didn't have any alternative." (162-163)
ReplyDeleteIs the REAL reason that Sally didn't want to "horse around" that she didn't want to mess up her lipstick?
According to Holden's narration, the reason why Sally didn't want to "horse around" was because she didn't want to mess up her lipstick. But since there are times where Holden can be an unreliable narrator, I think that Holden may not be totally truthful there. In his head, Holden thinks very highly of himself and when people reject him he blames it on them. So when Sally is being stubborn, typical Holden would want to blame it on her. I think that what really happened was that Sally was just not interested in Holden. Also, I don't think that Holden "was being seductive as hell." I think that he thought of himself as that but in real life he was just not. For example, when he is talking to the women in the Lavender Room and said he was being "suave," but I think that in real life, he wasn't being "suave" he was just being a weird kid who is hitting on women probably twice his age. In addition, I think that this quote shows how his inner person is very different from his outer person. His inner Holden thinks that he is "suave" and "seductive" but his outer Holden seems to be odd, depressed, and also unattractive, as shown by Sally. It almost seems like Sally did it out of pity.
Yes I agree with this. This connects back to many of the other moments in the book. Whenever Holden is rejected by someone (which is quote frequently) he always tries to frame it as they were "just morons" or "ignorant" or something similar. He can't come to terms with people rejecting him, so he patronizes people to make their rejection seem insignificant.
Delete“Girls with their legs crossed, girls with their legs not crossed, girls with terrific legs, girls with lousy legs, girls that looked like swell girls, girls that looked like they'd be bitches if you knew them.” pg.137
ReplyDeleteWhat does Holden show about himself when he describes how these girls sit and assumes what they must be like?
I think this entire quote pretty much sums Holden up. The one who hates social norms, but yet criticizes everyone he sees. The one who hates when people judge him but judges everyone he sees. The person who JUDGES A BOOK ON ITS COVER. Thats all there is to Holden. Before he encounters/ speaks to anyone in the book he has an internal thought about all their flaws and how he thinks they are. He always prejudges people and I feel like thats not the best choice for him right now. He wants to have an “intellectual” conversation with someone but he keeps going for people that he thinks are intellectual. Holden himself believes that just because Carl Luce went to a good school and had a high IQ that he's the best person to have an intellectual conversation with, and I think that’s absurd. All Holden does is label. And I think that the way you sit is certainly not symbolic or related in anyway to how you act or who you are deep inside. This quote just shows how Holden is not a only a walking contradiction, but also a walking “judger”.
I completely agree with you. I think Holden also labels people because as I mentioned in my post, he seems to try to keep to himself now and when your alone for so long you begin to judge people you don't know. He in my opinion, is sometimes scared to talk to people and then just sits back and looks and judges them rather harshly from afar.
DeleteI agree with you fully I was also going to use this part of this passage. I think Holden criticizes girls more then anybody else. He judges them by everything they do no matter what something is always wrong with them. I agree that Holden just likes to label people he just thinks that he can put everybody in their own categorie and label them like that. Your last statement is fully correct he is basically a walking "judged"
Delete"She looked terrific... I felt like marrying her the minute I saw her... I didn't even like her much." (138)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden judge so many people, especially women based on looks and appearance?
I think that Holden is a very socially awkward character, especially around women. In the book holden hasn't had many positive moments where a woman was around. He is constantly turned away by women including Ms. Moraue, Sunny, and the girls at the lavender club. Every time he has tried to have a social endeavor with a woman to this point he has been turned away because he is too young or doesn't treat them well. I feel Holden begins to notice this and then thinks all he can do is watch from afar and thats why he makes so many judgements off of appearance.
For men too, Holden hasn't really had a friend this whole book and I'm beginning to feel he thinks of himself as a very independent guy which forces hi m to stay away from others and judge on appearance.
Obviously, he does eventually have interaction with Sally but he still begins by saying he wants to marry her but just based on appearance. That seemed pretty messed up to me.
I agree that Holden judges people on their appearances because he distances himself, but Holden can get close to some people like Jane and Phoebe, who he also thinks are pretty. I also think judging on appearances is pretty messed up, but it was also of the time. In the forties when the book was written women were judged on how they looked by almost all men, not just Holden.
Delete"When they got out of school and college, I mean. You figured most of them would probably marry dopey guys. Guys that always talk about how many miles they get to a gallon in their goddamn cars."(pg.137)
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden so quick to judge people/others so quickly?
The reason I think Holden is so quick to judge others is because he doesn't like to be judged himself. He should be looking himself in the mirror and seeing all the flaws he has but he rather just point out other people's flaws. I also feel like he envys people to seem to live a better life then he is. He gets jealous of everything everybody else has because he feels like all he has is money. I also kind of think that he just wants love and affection from people to help him feel better. The reason I think he likes to talk with little kids is because they won't judge as everybody else would and what I'm basically trying to say is he judges people before people try and judge him.
i agree i also feel that he does not get jeleous but thinks that shim and he is looking in the mirror and does not like what he sees. i love that you pointed out how he shows us others flaws but not his one which says so much about him.
Delete"I think he was pretty surprised to hear from me. I once called him a fat-assed phony," (pg. 137).
ReplyDeleteIs this a sign of how lonely Holden is our of how judgmental he is? Or both?
This quote really struck me. Here Holden is trying to find someone to have dinner with, and he calls a person who he considered to be a phony and obviously didn't have the best relationship with. So why did Holden call him? I really do think this is a sign of how low Holden is beginning to steep. He is calling a person who he believes to be a "fat-assed phony" so it seems to me that Holden is really desperate to not spend another night alone. However, he did mention that this person who's name is Carl Luce, was very intelligent and had the highest I.Q. at Whooton. So obviously Holden doesn't think that negatively about Carl. So, I also believe that this quotation reveals that Holden is very judgmental of not only "phonies" but also people that you would think he respects.
I totally agree, and I also noticed that because Carl has a very good characteristic, which was being smart, Holden doesn't think bad of him now. This also proves that Holden doesn't always stick with the same impression people leave on him, or in better terms, what he thinks people are. I really want to know what everyone else thinks of Holden.
Delete''If you want to know the truth, I don't even know why I started all that stuff with her...I probably wouldn't've taken her even if she'd wanted to go with me. She wouldn't have been anybody to go with. The terrible part though, is that I meant it when I asked her. That's the terrible part, I swear to God I'm a madman."
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden say this? What do you think he is trying to say?
For a bit, I felt as if he said that because he was obviously rejected and not taken seriously. He felt patronaged, since she stated that they were still children. Since he meant what he said, he was hoping for her to say yes and to be on board but because she wasn't, he decided to be a bad guy and offend her, which caused them to part in the end. Way to go, Holden. One thing I forgot to say, the words he said were very impulsive, they came out of nowhere. I think this happened because he is always bottled up and sometimes he just bursts. I like how he does accept the fact that he is a "madman" or something because what he was doing was rather odd and things you don't say on a date with a person you just reunited after not seeing each other in a while. In addition they weren't even that close in the past. Going back to the patronage, I belief that it ties with him thinking that women always think that the man they dated were inferior complexes. In the end, Sally did get what she asked for, like her sudden urge to ice skate. Holden thought he knew girls tricks but in the end, I kind of think he fell into one.
Nice work Alfonsina! That was like killing 3 birds (or topics) with one stone.
DeleteHolden is a really impulsive guy. He makes a lot of assumptions about people, and I think this is one of those times when his assumption was incorrect. I believe that he thought Sally was stupid and gullible, so she'd go along with him when he asked her to run away. However, it's revealed (albeit sporadically throughout Holden's tangent) that she's actually a sensible person, mentioning how they're "just kids" and things like that.
(165 big book)
ReplyDelete"he was the kind of a phony that have to give them selves room when they answer somebody's question"
why does holden dislike high class people?
there are so many answers to this question but a few could be that he is jealous of them but i think he sees himself through them and does not like the way he looks. but i think we can all relate to this when 2 people meet if they remind them of them selves they might not connect but like the vrase goes opposites attract. as we discussed in class he likes kids because they are so different than him they walk on the road and he wals on the side walk.
"I could see them all sitting around in some bar, with their goddam checkered vests, criticizing shows and books and women in those tired, snobby voices. They kill me, those guys" (142).
ReplyDeleteWhat does Holden's prejudice towards men like George say about him? What theme of Holden does this reveal?
I was wondering why Holden was criticizing someone he had just met so much. I know that he does this a lot, especially with the Lavender girls, but this was so detailed and so quick that I couldn't help but dwell on it. At first I thought Holden was criticizing George because he was afraid that Sally would leave with someone else, but it's actually for a different reason. Holden hates stereotypes, and he realizes that this is a social norm that he could become very soon. Holden is afraid of turning into a "George" and therefore becoming a "phony".
However, this scene reveals that Holden contradicts himself too often, and that he may have become a "George" already. He describes George as a kid who went to a private high school and college, and a man who is judgmental of everyone. This is a description that fits Holden surprisingly well, considering that he's been to private schools all his life, and criticizes everyone without a second thought.
This quote shows how Holden is contradictory, in that he fits into social norms but hates others who follow them.
"If you want to know the truth, I don't even know why I started all that stuff with her...I probably wouldn't've even taken her if she wanted to go with me." (149)
ReplyDeleteWhy does Holden ask Sally to go away with him if he didn't even want to go with her in the first place?
During this part of the reading, Holden invites Sally to go away with him. He paints a picture for her of what their lives would be like together; blowing away the money without a care in the world, at peace. They wouldn't be thinking about the future, the past; only enjoying Holden's vision. Inviting Sally to do this with him was an extremely impulsive thing for Holden to do. He's starting to hate the girl, and then he invites her to go far away with him and marry him a little later on. It's really absurd. This reveals how lonely and desperate Holden is. The fact that he would go out on a limb and ask some girl he doesn't really care for to basically spend the rest of her life with him--someone who doesn't have a legitimate plan for his life--is very unusual. Holden didn't have anyone else to go to, so he just decided to ask the pretty girl who was right in front of him. He did this because he felt she would slip away. Holden doesn't have many people at all to turn to at this moment in the book, so the second someone who moderately intrigues him comes into his grasp, he'll try with all his heart never to let them go. He tried to get Sally to commit to something that most people take a long time to commit to. He even said 'I love you' earlier in the chapter. Also, after he said it, he tells the reader: "It was a lie, of course, but the thing is, I meant it when I said it." This links back to Holden snatching whatever's in front of him that could give him some kind of comfort; some kind of safety net for him to fall back on. In this case, Holden saw Sally as a safety net, and tried to take her for himself while she was still within reach.
"’I don't know what you're even talking about,’ old Sally said. ‘You jump from one thing to the next--’
ReplyDelete‘You know something?’ I said. ‘You’re probably the only reason I’m in New York right now..’"
Why did Holden go out with Sally Hayes?
Holden dislikes many people for various reasons, including Sally Hayes. The one thing all these people have in common is that they don’t get Holden’s way of thinking. Holden really likes Phoebe, Ally and Jane because they seem to understand most of what he was saying and never really judge him. But Sally Hayes, on the other hand, doesn't usually know what he is talking about and doesn't hold back when criticizing him, but at least she is there. To me, that is the only reason why he went out with her. Although Allie, Jane and phoebe understand him, Allie died, Jane went on a date with what Holden thought of as a “phony”, and Phoebe is only a kid and is at home.
I agree. I think that the only reason that she likes all of these people because they understand him. However, I think that since Holden is thinking so much about Phoebe, he is also staying because of her.
Delete“I sort of hated old sally by the time we got in the cab.”
ReplyDeleteWhy do Holden feelings change from “loving” sally to hating her by the end of the show?
Holden’s feelings toward sally change by the end of the lunts show because of the lack of attention sally is giving him when she reconnects with George. In all honesty, Holden only seems to go out with sally because he is tired of being lonely and is desperate for some attention. Although describing her as a “pain in the ass” he only uses her as an escape or distraction from his lonely lifestyle. Not because he truly “loves” her as he previously states. But after seeing George again, Sally begins to direct her focus mostly on him, making Holden feel secluded all over again(which is what he is definitely trying to avoid).
"Anyway, I'm sort of glad they've got the atomic bomb invented. If theres ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell on top of it. I'll volunteer for it, I swear to god I will" (156).
ReplyDeleteHolden is going through a very emotional time. He thinks that he has no one to talk to so he resorts to talking to "old Luce". Holden said that he was one of those people that always gave sex talks. I find it very ironic how Holden wanted to talk to him after having had the experience with sunny the prostitute; Holden felt sorry for her as she was not much older than he was. I was convinced that he was over the whole "sex" thing- at least for now. However here we see him talking once again about sex. I feel that Holden does this solely because of his desperation for people to talk to. We see this again after "old Luce" leaves and he makes the drunk phone call to Sally Haynes.