For your final blog post on Catcher in the Rye, please choose/type up a quotation from the final chapters and EITHER ask a question OR write a response to that quotation. What does the end reveal about Holden? Why does your quotation seem significant? Perhaps you can make some connections to moments earlier in the novel. Take your time with this post, and do some serious thinking about Holden and his resolution at the end of the novel. Make sure that you respond to another classmate's question or response. Tuesday, October 14, 2014
D-Band: Catcher in the Rye-- Final Reflection
For your final blog post on Catcher in the Rye, please choose/type up a quotation from the final chapters and EITHER ask a question OR write a response to that quotation. What does the end reveal about Holden? Why does your quotation seem significant? Perhaps you can make some connections to moments earlier in the novel. Take your time with this post, and do some serious thinking about Holden and his resolution at the end of the novel. Make sure that you respond to another classmate's question or response. 
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"I felt so damn happy all of a sudden, the way old Phoebe kept going around and around" (233).
ReplyDeleteThis quote was thought by Holden on page 233 of the class set of books. To me, this revealed that all Holden really cares about is the happiness of his family. All he wants is for his family to be happy, because that symbolizes happiness to him. Also, this made me think about how this revealed how much Holden cares about Phoebe. Like we were discussing the other day in class, Phoebe always sticks up for Holden and sometimes takes blame for him, just to keep him safe and out of trouble. In this passage, this was the only part of the book that Holden seemed grateful to anybody. This brings me back to my point that that this reveals that Holden cares about the happiness of his family. This thought did not occur to me until I read this passage in the book. Also, Holden was doing everything he possibly could to stop Phoebe from crying earlier in Chapter 25. I thought it was interesting how much he would do just to please her, such as let her skip class and bring her to the zoo, when he really wanted her to go back to school. This shows the love and the care that Holden has for someone that he cares about, such as his sister. As you can see, this quote from page 233 of the class set of books reveals that all Holden needs to be happy is for his family to be happy as well.
I definitely agree with you on how much Holden really cares about Phoebe. Even though she wasn't even a huge character for most of the book she still ends up being the one person that was able to stop Holden's fall. I think that Holden values Phoebe's happiness even above his own because he respects her, and even admires her. Despite the fact that she's a kid, Holden seems to have more in common with Phoebe than with anyone else. And in the end, Phoebe's the one person who can make him so happy he doesn't want to run away anymore and he doesn't need to fantasize about living in a wood cabin, because she fulfills that missing piece of him that's longing for a friend, and for a reason to stay on the mainstream path no matter how "phony" it may be.
DeleteI agree with everything that you said of how much Holden loves and cares for Phoebe. However, I also feel that Holden was "so damn happy" because he feels as if he has done his part of being the "Catcher in the Rye". He stopped Phoebe from doing grown up things and put her back in her spot where she can be a child. He sees that there were very little kids on the carousal so that is where he put Phoebe, so no one from can pull her away from childhood.
DeleteI agree because Phobe really meant a lot to him. It made him happy just to see her happy and I feel like Holden finally found something that he loves a lot. His sister understands him and I think she means the world to him and without her he would be more lost in the world then he already is. This quote shows a lot about him because it shows that he actually cares about something and finally he doesn't have to judge somebody. Love is a strong thing and Holden loved Phobe
Delete"The thing with kids is, if they want to grab for the gold ring, you have to let them do it, and not say anything. If they fall off, they fall off, but it's bad if you say anything to them." -page 273-274
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because throughout the whole book Holden comments on kids' behavior and seems to take more to kids than adults, but now at the very end of the book he's saying that you can’t always stop a kid from falling or hurting themselves. I think this is significant because it relates to the symbolism of Holden wanting to be the catcher in the rye and our discussion in class about what that meant. In the quote, Holden is realizing that you can't always catch the kids before they fall off the cliff, meaning that sometimes you have to let someone fall in order for them to be able to get back up. This symbolism connects to what Mr. Antolini said about Holden falling. The whole book has been like a build-up of Holden falling and falling endlessly but once he finally hit rock bottom, when Phoebe started falling because of him, he was able to push himself back up. This reveals how internally strong Holden's really been this whole time; although he pondered committing suicide and made casual but worrisome comments about jumping out windows and how he's a coward because he won't physically fight, Holden's really had a powerful drive inside himself he just didn't know how to access. Seeing Phoebe's love for him and desire to be like him, even fall like him by skipping school and wanting to run away, opened Holden's eyes and showed him that he needed to turn his life around. Just like the kids in the quote, Holden needed to learn for himself from his experience how to get back on his feet. In real life, it's easy to keep falling like Holden did and just not know how to stop, but all people need to get back on their feet is to remember why they need to stop falling. Holden’s reason to stop falling was his love for Phoebe. In real life, it’s the same concept; all people need to stop falling is a reason like love, a reason that’s strong enough to live for, to fight for, and to get back up on their feet for.
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DeleteI completely agree with you Ilana. I thought the same thing, that Holden believes that he won't be able to catch children from falling into adulthood anymore. Also, when I thought of this, I realized that his purpose in life changed. It went from him wanting to be a catcher in the rye to him realizing that all children eventually change into adults, and no matter how hard he tries to stop it, he can't. I also agree with your point that everything in Holden's life appears to build up to something wonderful, yet at the end, everything falls apart. I connected this point of yours to the point I am making, that this exact thing happened to his purpose in life. Holden had real intentions of trying to prevent innocent children from growing up. This goal of his is destroyed by the realization that someone's entrance into adulthood cannot be prevented.
DeleteAll of your points are so interesting, and I agree with every single one of them. However, I do think that your quote could be looked at in a different way. As I read this line, I thought that Holden meant you had to let them do what they were gonna do because if you tried to control every little action the kids did, they would wind up useless. In Holden's eyes, he thinks that trying to make the kid stay on the carousel represents the way society tries to make everyone stay on the supposed "right track." To Holden, society's expectations interfere with what people could really be, without the pressures of everyone telling them what they want to do instead of choosing for themselves. Holden may think that some kids--a select few, like himself--would prefer to fall of the horse, free from someone breathing down their neck trying to protect and control them to no end. Falling of the horse, to Holden, could represent becoming someone like a catcher in the rye, free from the controlling arms of a parent and able to do what feels natural. Now, I completely agree with what you wrote, but I just decided to look at it from a different angle.
DeleteI love your interpretation of the quote! When I read this line, I was wondering what I might mean and I think you did a great job of explaining it, and then connecting it with the bigger picture. When I tried to find the deeper meaning of this passage, what stood out to me was how the kids were reaching out for the gold ring and missing it most of the time. I believe this shows Holden that he needs to aim for the top and try his hardest, because if and when he falls he can always get back up. Holden doesn't have very big dreams right now, and he should find something to work for and allow him to have a purpose in his life. Like you said, he's pretty much hit rock bottom, so he know what it's like and he needs to learn that you can rebound from it. Holden needs to keep reaching for that gold ring, no matter the consequences.
Delete"Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everyone." (234)
ReplyDeleteHolden 'told' us everything because he was lonely. In real life, he didn't have anyone to speak with, except for Phoebe. 'We' were the only people he could legitimately talk to, and give some form of his real thoughts that he experienced inside. Now, after Holden has gotten his whole story out, he reminisces about it. Just as he reminisced about Jane putting her checkers in the back row, or the way Phoebe changed her middle name every time she had a new character she loved more in the stories she created. He even admits to missing that awful pimp, Maurice. As a whole, this quote exhibits how Holden was in need of a friend, throughout the entire book. Also, most of the people he had interactions with were conveyed to the reader in a very negative way. Now that we have finished the book, it is clear that Holden was jealous of these people he supposedly hated, in many ways. For one-- whether it concerns every single phony he ran into or even the girls in the Lavender Room--Holden despised these people because they were happier than him. Of course, some of his loathing was plucked from genuine prejudices he had towards the people he encountered, but a large factor of his negativity was the prominent fact that other people were much happier with their lives than he was. This made Holden unhappy. There is no other way to put it. Throughout all of the book, it is evident how much sadder, and how much angrier Holden becomes. Near the end, his unhappiness begins to take a physical toll on him, with his fainting and dizziness, and even just talking to himself. Holden has not had anyone to truly open up to, and it has hurt him to a rather large extent. Just from this one last line of the book, enormous quantities are revealed about Holden. Even the people he hated most throughout the book are missed, even just for their company. What Holden really desired was someone to share an experience with, since he knew how rare and fleeting those opportunities were for himself.
I think that's a really interesting point about the reader filling the void in Holden's life and I didn't think about it like that before. Like you said, "We" the reader have been Holden's companion throughout this book. Holden's journey in the book was actually very short and only took place over a week or so but it felt like a year reading it because as the reader, we only got glimpses of Holden's most intimate thoughts, feelings, and actions, and we had to mentally piece together his memories and what Holden really felt as opposed to what he said or did. As the reader, we were by Holden's side this whole time and we got to feel a deeper connection with him and I think that J.D. Salinger ended the book the way he did with that quote you chose because it shows that Holden's not really lonely anymore. He misses people but at the same time he's probably feeling more love at the end of the book than he had for a long time. And all he really misses is telling his story, but now that he's getting back on his feet he doesn't have the need to tell his story anymore because it's time for him to focus on reality. He's in a place where he doesn't have to express himself to strangers because he has Phoebe, and his family, and Mr. Antolini and all the people he now realizes he misses.
Delete"But while I was sitting down for a second, I saw something that drove me crazy. Somebody'd written 'Fuck you' on the wall. It drove me damn near crazy. I thought how Phoebe and all the other little kids would see it, and how they'd wonder what the hell it meant, and then some dirty kid would tell them..." (260)
ReplyDeleteRight now in the book, Holden is walking around his old school, reliving his childhood. This seems like it brings him a lot of joy because it is very evident that he would much rather be a kid than a teenager or adult. Since the school is a place where there are mostly only young kids, Holden thinks that there would be nothing that is inappropriate in the school. But then, when he sees the "fuck you" on the wall, it completely spoils his happiness. I think that seeing this profanity in the school fuels his need to protect kids. Since "fuck you" is such an adult word and it is being written in an elementary school, Holden is upset that something like that is poisoning kids' lives. All Holden wants to do is keep the kids in a safe environment but with the "fuck you" in the hallway it destroys the safety bubble that they were in. In other words, profane language like "fuck you" is a place where kids could run off of the cliff and Holden needs to be there so censor that so the kids don't fall.
I definitely agree with you but there’s one point I’d like to hit on. When Holden sees the “Fuck you” written in the school hallway he assumes that it must have been a “perverty bum”. But what if it wasn’t? In reality theres vandalization in an abundance of schools across the globe and a lot of it is done by the actual students. Holden automatically assumes it must of been someone other then the students because he doesn't want to look at the kids that way. He doesn't want to believe that the kids that attend school with Phoebe are capable of portraying such harsh messages. If Holden new a kid wrote this then that would entirely ruin his innocent perspective on them. But since he doesn't know a kid did he , he automatically assumes it must of been someone else.
DeleteI agree with Jason's point. Holden doesn't want to think a kid at the school wrote "fuck you" on the wall because he couldn't imagine something like that coming from an innocent kid. Instead, he writes it off as something a bum did, to protect his ideas of kids. In reality, it could have easily been a kid. However, that would shatter Holden's view of childhood innocence and simplicity, so he blames it on a more likely person.
DeleteGreat points Susannah! I totally agree that he wants to censor the kids from the adult things like the "fuck you" sign on the wall. He sees that those types of things are an extra push into adulthood and that kids don't need that and shouldn't be exposed to that yet. Whatever kid is exposed to it is also leading themselves not only down a path into adulthood quicker than needed, but they are also going down a bad path that may corrupt them. Those kids may find themselves doing adult things too fast which could cause them many problems in the future. I think that Holden thinks that kids who are exposed to that already shouldn't be exposing other kids to it too, so he needs to protect them.
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ReplyDelete"Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody" (234).
ReplyDeleteHolden is still in the midst of the same conflicts he has faced throughout the book. Conflicts such as loneliness. He still isolated and continues struggle to communicate with the world around him. As a solution, he says that people will have to write out what they want to say to him so that they get bored and leave him alone. However, the last words of the book revealed to me that Holden is starting to break out of his bitterness. Holden is finally understanding why everything is just the way it is. He is understanding the importance of things rather than just to let it fly by as if it was nothing. the people around him. In the end, the biggest thing I learned about Holden was how he's not really as harsh and bitter as he was earlier in the novel. He realizes that when you talk to people about your life, you begin to miss them. This quote is significant because he now regrets telling so many people his story. It just makes him feel more isolated around everyone because he realizes how many people he misses, included Stradlater and Ackley. Since Holden understands the mistake he made about dismissing everyone, he loosens his distrust and doubts about everyone. That is one of the biggest changes Holden has ever accomplished and may even reveal something how he may live his life in the future.
i totally agree he is the dictionary definition for conflicts. thats a great point about struggling to communicate and you see it with not just him and characters but with him and us the readers as well. and i agree that this hole story could be a lie but that last line says its not because he is talking about telling us.
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DeleteI completely agree with you on that. After telling his story, Holden must have reached many realizations and epiphanies about himself and his character. I agree with you on that Holden understands the importance of things, as that melancholy tone we get at the end shows us Holden's acceptance with how he may not get those things back.
DeleteI completely agree with you, Holden misses everyone he talked about, so he warns the reader to not talk about memories, they only remind you of whay you no longer have. Having trust in other people can make you like them, and when they leave or betray your secrets it makes it harder. What I got out of reading that quote is that how if you tell people something and they dont react the way yoy expect them to you realize that they've changed and you miss the old them.
Delete“I almost hated her. I think I hated her most because she wouldn't be in that play anymore if she went away with me” (236).
ReplyDeleteThis quotation takes place when Phoebe tells Holden that her plans were to go to the country side with him and live a new life. Holden reacts dramatically and nearly smacks Phoebe due to her unreasonable proposition. I believe this shows that Holden finally realizes how is decisions impact / influence the people he loves. Holden previously talked about how he wanted to stop kids from growing up and how he think they shouldn't be forced into adulthood but when Phoebe asks him if she can attend the trip with him , why did he say no? Wasn’t that her way out of Adulthood and wouldn't that be Holden saving a kid from Adulthood? Wasn't this his plan all along, to be a “catcher in the rye”? I think he realizes at this moment how his decisions have impacted his little sister Phoebe. Throughout the book she has been very intelligent and passionate about school and now all of a sudden she just wants to drop all of it and go with Holden. Holden thinks he isn't good for Adulthood but he realizes how he has to be a good role model for his sister because not everyone is like him. Throughout the book Holden seems to be doing what he thinks is right, but when his sister wants to follow in his steps he thinks it is ridiculous. Did Holden really mean all he said about how kids should never go into Adult hood or was he just talking out of sadness and loneliness. This quote most definitely reveals how Holden doesn't believe he’s been doing the right thing and doesn't want his sister following in his path.
I completely agree with you especially that last line. I think that deep down Holden was just running away and not necessarily escaping the evils of society. Let's face the truth: Holden was a scared teenager afraid to get in trouble with his parents. He knows that Phoebe is a fighter and running away isn't her thing which is the main reason why he refuses to let her go. I think "the catcher" in Holden starts to come out when he decides to stay and not to keep Phoebe from bothering him, but to finally help guide her into eternal innocence, purity, and imagination.
Delete“I turned around and saw she was crossing the street and following me and all.” (229)
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that Phoebe mirrors Holden with admiration. However, in the dialogue before, Holden’s tone leads the reader to believe that Holden does not want to be her role model. He says, “go back to school” and that she is doing “crazy stuff”. Holden has always wanted to be “the catcher in the rye” and I always thought that it meant that kids were to follow him to innocence. Yet, his reluctance to allow Phoebe to follow him confuses me on what he wants to do with his life. It is just another fold in Holden’s complex personality. Phoebe trusts Holden enough to instill her life in his hands, but Holden cannot deal with this pressure and so he pushes her away calling her crazy. Things start to clear up for me when he and Phoebe begin to walk closer to each other because it is when his loneliness starts to take hold of his emotions. He appreciates the friend he has in Phoebe and the fact that she will never doubt him. So far, the easiest moments to read Holden have been in times of lonesomeness. It goes hand in hand with him wanting to be the catcher in the rye. Stopping kids from falling off the cliff while refusing to accept them as your own, leaves Holden in this “depressing” “box” where nothing can come in and nothing can come out.
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DeleteI never even thought of this line that way. This is a really deep interpretation and i definitely agree with you. Holden wants to steer away children from following his path and blindly falling into adulthood. He wants to preserve their innocence for as long as possible. I feel like Holden is trying really hard to keep Phoebe away from the traps of adulthood. He even gives up his "dream" of living near the woods just for the sake of Phoebe living her childhood. There's so many parts in the last two chapters that show Holden being the "The Catcher in the Rye". For instance, the part when he was visiting his old school and he see's "fuck you" written on the walls. He feels that this term will cause children to learn things they should't have to learn. He gets all mad about it because learning such things is a trap of adulthood. Holden is already doing what he really wants to do (be the "Catcher in the Rye") without even realizing it.
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ReplyDelete"It played the same song about fifty years ago when I was a little kid. That's one nice thing about carrousels, they always play the same songs" (231).
ReplyDeleteThis passage reveals a lot about Holden and underscores our ideas about growing up. Holden never bought a carousel ticket for himself and the fact that he says he was a kid "fifty years ago" shows that he believes that he's more of an adult than a child now. Before we started the Catcher in the Rye, we discussed how teenagers act versus how kids act, and what is socially acceptable. Holden notices that there are only little kids on the carrousel, so he buys a ticket for Phoebe and not for himself. Although I'm sure Holden is a little jealous of Phoebe's youth, he seems content to watch her enjoy herself on the ride. This marks a change in Holden, when he realizes that he is a mature, young adult who needs to accept responsibilities and take charge of his life. However, Holden can pause his overwhelming life and remember his childhood through the carrousel. Phoebe says, "I thought the carrousel was closed in the wintertime," which reminds the readers that even when their life is not where they want it to be, they can take a break and remember better times.
I agree with the idea that Holden has finally realized that he’s an adult. He escapes the opportunity of him riding the carrousel with Phoebe because he realized that he needs to be mature. To add on, on page 227, I feel that Holden really takes his first role of being an adult. Phoebe asks him if she can come along to his escape from home. Naturally, I thought he would let her come with him because she is one of the only people that he genuinely admires and cares for. But instead, he says no. It shows a sense of responsibility that he has taken, even though he knows he wanted to take her.
DeleteI agree with Sophia as well but I think there is another abstract aspect that is deep about Holden and the carousel. I think that the carousel playing the same song symbolizes how Holden does not really want to change his ego for the better of the social norms in the world. He doesn’t want the social norms to take over his ego. He does want to be an adult but have the same ego of being different ever since he was a child. The same music symbolizes his never changing ego.
Delete"I didn't know where the hell to go"
ReplyDeletethrough out the whole book he never knows where to go, even in the last few chapters. this i think is true for everyone does any teen truthfully know where there going most of us don't even know the direction. i don't think holders talking about ligtemtly where to go but more metaphorically like what job whats up with hm and phoebe all these questions fit into this quote perfectly. because he is just like us a teen discovering himself ( which sounds cheesy but is so true )
I also agree with you because all teens are at the point of defining who they want to be and what they want to do, like how Holden is trying to figure out where he wants to go and how he wanted to go to the far far West and live on his own.
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ReplyDeleteI agree that Holden is at a loss of where to go. Holden brings back the idea of moving out next to the woods and not have to talk to anyone again. When Phoebe wants to come, the whole situation changes. He realizes how important some of the social norms are such as going to school. By the time Phoebe gets off of the carrousel, he decides not to go so that Phoebe can go to school and live a better life than he has lived so far.
Delete"You can't ever find a place that's nice and peaceful, because there isn't any. You may think there is, but once you get there, when you're not looking, somebody'll sneak up and write "F*** you" right under your nose"(224).
ReplyDeleteIt becomes a common trend that Holden is never happy with the way things end up. Everyone he meets, the places he goes, the things he hears & sees all seems nice at first… but eventually, they get ruined. People become different, things change, and nothings the same. It surprises me how after all this change and difference that is going on in Holden’s life, doesn’t change him. He clearly wants things to always stay the same. He wants to be the catcher in the rye, who catches kids before they fall of the cliff into change, but personally, I think he should change. He has to always deal with the disappointment and adaptation to things that change around him, so he should change with it. It would save his constant thoughts of doubt and depression, and things would be easier. Yes, Holden doesn’t like the norms of his society, but if that’s the way things go, why doesn’t he go with it?
Holden may not go with the norms of his society because he is afraid he will get rejected by the "normal people". Instead of focusing on the positives of joining the norms, Holden focuses on the negative aspects that could happen, like the lost of originality. Holden seems to live by a motto of " Why join them for their good when I can mock them for their bad."
DeleteI agree with Pat that Holden doesn't want to embrace the norms because he is afraid of being rejected by "normal people". I think this fear of rejection may be mostly subconscious. It would explain why he always acts condescending and looks down on others: he tries to minimize their rejection by making them seem like a lesser person.
Delete“I almost hated her. I think I hated her most because she wouldn't be in that play any more if she went away with me.” (pg. 227)
ReplyDeleteThroughout the whole book, Holden has had a soft spot for kids. However, when Phoebe wants to go and run away with Holden seems to realizes his actions have other people. Holden has spent most of the book following his emotions and going places he feels like going, whether it was smart to go there or not. When Phoebe decides she wants go with him, Holden acts as her catcher in the rye, by preventing her from doing what he had done, the week earlier: pack up and leave his school. He wants to convince her to stay in school so she can be in the play and get her education. Although Holden lashes out at Phoebe for thinking she could leave behind her play, he does this with good intentions Holden stops her from making the same mistake he made, and consequently, allowed Holden to realize he was about to make another mistake by leaving.
I would also like to add that because Holden didn't take Phoebe with him, it was sort of an adult action. Many parents want their kid to not make the same mistakes as them, to overcome what they did, to become someone bigger than they are. Holden is always depressed throughout the book, and has very negative thoughts, bad experiences and suicidal thoughts. I am inferring that when Phoebe asked him to take him with her, his experiences rolled in his mind, and he didnt want the same for his sister.
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ReplyDeleteWhy does Pheobe going on the carousel make Holden so happy?
ReplyDeleteIt seems like Phoebe's innocent and childish actions have helped Holden restore his faith in the world. Right before this bit, Holden had seen many things to make the future look grim, such as all the "fuck you" on the school walls, and the men lifting the christmas tree carelessly. All these things (combined with his perception of adults as "phony") led to his low point of talking to Allie. Holden seemed to give up on the world with it's norms and phonies, and resorted to talking to the only non-phony thing he ever knew (besides Pheobe). However seeing Pheobe play innocently seemed to restore his faith in the world. While before, it seemed like everyone, even children (as shown by the obscene graffiti in the school) had fallen off the metaphorical cliff into adulthood. However, Pheobe's carousel ride gave him hope that there was still innocence in the world. He felt glad the while he had left innocence and childhood, some people still hadn't.
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ReplyDelete"...but i got soaked anyway. I didn't care, though. I felt so damn happy all of a sudden, the way Phoebe kept going around and around. I felt so damn happy, if you want to know the truth."
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What impact does Phoebe or any kid or people have on Holden, other than him wanting to help them?
While rereading the texts, I noticed something. Holden isn't entirely fond of kids, he is fond off people that are happy and bring him joy. First let me discuss about the children. Whenever he was lonely or with people he didn't feel comfortable with, he was depressed. However went he opposite happens, he is happy. He states he wants to be the catcher in the rye, but not only because he wants to help kids not fall into the norms, but to help himself find his true happiness and his therapy. Children are this therapy. One incident was with Phoebe, when she was on the carousel, he felt happy watching her be joyful and being a kid. In addition, despite the fact that she thought she was too old, she still went on, becoming younger in thought. On another note, he also enjoyed talking to certain adults, like THE MAIDS he met in a cafe. Why? He liked their honesty and the way they talked to him. They were out of the norm in a way, since they were nuns who did things that contradicted their nature, like one of them being an English teacher reading about love.All of this helped Holden take things off his mind, at least for a while, and not be lonely, which affect him throughout the book.
“And the more I thought about it, the more depressed I got. I mean I thinking maybe I should’ve gone back to his house. Maybe it was only a patting my head for the hell of it.” (Pg.215)
ReplyDeleteThroughout the whole book, Holden has thoughts and opinions about people, for example, earlier in the book when he is with the nuns he looks at there luggage and says “I hate it when someone has cheap suitcases”, when he calls people phonies and in the beginning when he first met Jane he didn’t talk to her because he was afraid of what she would think about him. This specific quote pushes me to think further about why Holden regrets leaving Mr. Antolini’s house in such a hurry. I think that Holden is feeling depressed because he is constantly thinking about what happened not long ago to him. I also think he is considering the “perverty” taps on his head as something Mr. Antolini wanted to do for the hell of it, instead of it being some “flitty” act.
I totally agree, I think Holden thinks about what’s happening in the past rather than in the future which impacts him strongly in adjusting to what’s presently happening. Also he resists to change and always lags behind the social norms which impacts his view on people and when he’s calling them phonies.
Delete"Whuddaya want to do? Not be in the play, for God's sake?" (207)
ReplyDeleteThis comes after Phoebe tells Holden she's coming with him out west. He gets very angry, mainly because he is looking out for her. While Holden continued to tell himself that he had no future in his current setting, he believes Phoebe does. She has potential, and she is clearly very smart. Holden doesn't want her to end up like him, drifting away from the civilized world. His depression has forced him out of his world, but Phoebe did not need to be the same way. He uses the play merely as an example of all she has to stick around for and excel at. In addition to him looking out for her, I think Holden makes his choice to stay because of Phoebe. Through her, he sees the good in life. Her happiness shows him that there are good, non-phony thing left in the world. Phoebe is a huge part of Holden's life.
"All of a sudden I wanted her to cry till her eyes practically fell out. I almost hated her" (227).
ReplyDeleteHolden in this paragraph seems to be almost on his emotional breaking point as this passage shows that Holden is doing what the reader may have thought to be impossible. This last bit of The Catcher in the Rye demonstrates that anything can quickly contradicted what the reader preserves to be a fact in the book. The book shows that Holden admires Phoebe and thinks that she is better than him in some respects, but as this section of the book comes around we see that Holden is capable of lashing out to anyone despite how big of a place he/she holds in his heart. But Holden takes to another level by saying that he would want her to cray until her eyes came out. This is very big for a person a lot of people would believe to have a strong tie with Phoebe.
“But this damn article I started reading made me feel worse. It was all about hormones. It described how you should look, your face, eyes and all, if your hormones were in good shape, and I didn’t look that way at all. So I started getting worried about my hormones…” (215)
ReplyDeleteThe ending of “The Catcher in the Rye” revealed a lot about how Holden is in the middle about certain things and is getting adjusted to the real life world and opinions in the world. He’s fifty fifty on a lot of topics and doesn’t really know his placing in the world yet. I think my quote seems significant because it specifically zooms in on how Holden has difficulty making a set decision about something and has trouble making a decision between being a norm and being different than everybody else. He does not know what he envies and what he likes. This quote also portrays how Holden really contradicts himself a lot and has a severe habit of doing that throughout the book. This quote can really connect to a scene that happened in the very beginning of the book when Holden feels “ostracized” by the hockey team when he misleads them in the wrong direction to the game and also loses their equipment on the train. These both relate because both quotes portray Holden’s contradiction of his feelings about social norms. I think this because Holden sometimes wants to be different and likes to be an outsider but in other moments like in these two scenes he wants to be a social norm to match up with people’s expectations. It’s not really that he wants to be a social norm it’s that he feels the need to fill people’s expectations of him.
"I felt so damn happy all of a sudden, the way Phoebe kept going around and around. I was damn near bawling, I felt so damn happy." (page 233)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because you never really see Holden this happy throughout the whole book. All you ever see is this lonely, depressed person who doesn't know how to deal with his problems, but deep down, Holden is a great person and knows how to deal with his stress. Whenever he's alone, he feels depressed and needy but as soon as Phoebe comes into his life, all of his problems wash away as if they never existed. I know this is supposed to be longer, but theres honestly not much to say about this besides the fact that Holden's family (especially Phoebe) brings a great amount of joy to him and makes him happier than he's ever been throughout the story.
"All the kids kept trying to grab for the gold ring, and so was Phoebe, and I was sort of afraid she'd fall off the goddam horse, but I didn't say anything or do anything."
ReplyDeleteIn this one line, we see how Holden is realizing his purpose. He wants his purpose to be saving children from falling into adulthood. He wants to stop the kids from falling off the cliff in the rye, and he wants to stop Phoebe from falling off the horse while reaching for the gold ring, but he doesn't. In this quote and in the end of the book, Holden realizes that he has been falling into adulthood as well as every other kid on the planet even though he is closer than most of them. He realizes that in his process of falling into adulthood, no one can help him but himself, but that's not so much of a negative thing. It's more of a type of thing where no one can help him because he decides his own speed in falling into it. Society can influence how fast he goes and what path of adulthood he falls down, but in the end, the final decision is his. He realizes that that's the case with all children too. He wants to help them so badly to get them away from adulthood, but he sees that he can't because it's all up to them. In other words, kids are all trying to reach for the gold ring which is happiness and escape from adulthood, but in that effort, a lot of them fall off the horse into adulthood, but that is such a big risk and so many people risk falling into it, that so many people don't even take the chance. Holden for example, is afraid to take the chance, but he sees that he can't stop kids from taking the chance themselves, that's their choice. When Phoebe reaches for the ring, he sees that she really wants it, and is willing to risk going into adulthood very fast. Maybe she wants to go into adulthood very fast and that's her destiny. Her actions seem to be showing that with her being very smart and wanting to run away and write books on her own. She shows very adult-like qualities in her actions, and Holden realizes that. He sees that Phoebe is an example of someone who is going into adulthood much quicker than him, so he doesn't have to worry, he just has to take as much time as he wants, and let everyone else do the same.
I agree that Holden realizes that everyone is going into adulthood, including himself. he used to want to stop people from falling off the cliff into adulthood, but he now realizes that the only person who can stop or slow that down is themselves. I think this quote is very important because it shows the change in Holden from the middle of the book to the end. I also think that Holden didn't take the chance or the risk to get the gold ring and he started to fail in school. I agree with everything you said and the quote was very important to understand Holden and his mental change at the end of the book.
Delete"Every time I came to the end of a block and stepped off the goddamn curb, I had this feeling that I’d never get to the other side of the street. I thought I’d just go down, down, down, and nobody'd ever see me again.”
ReplyDeleteI think that this means that Holden is afraid that once he goes away from childhood (the curb) he won’t make it to adulthood (the next block) and he would be stuck in between. He is also afraid that nobody would see him again because they would move on into adulthood and he would be stuck in place. I think that Holden wants to go to adulthood and not be in between, this is a change because in the whole novel before he said that he wanted to stay in place and wanted to be a child again. Holden has realized that he has to grow up and is afraid that he won’t be able to do it. Holden still needs a helping hand and later in the novel he said that he was talking to Allie as he crossed the street. I think that Holden will need someone else to help him “cross the street” who isn’t Allie because Allie isn’t making the change with him which could hold Holden back from going into adulthood.
"Then what she did--it damn near killed me--she reached in my coat pocket and took out my red hunting hat and put in on my head" (233).
ReplyDeletePhoebe dearly loves and cares for Holden. Up until this very point, we do not see anyone that cares enough about Holden to give something up for him. Despite the fact that it is raining outside, and that fact that Holden gave her the hunting hat, she still wants him to wear to so he will not get wet. This is the moment where Holden realizes how important everything that he has is. He suddenly realizes that he can not loose Phoebe and let her go down the wrong path he did by not going to school and coming with him to somewhere near the woods away from everyone else. He finally sees how important some of the social norms are.
I agree with you, this was a turning point a little bit for Holden as he really showed his affection and really thankfulness for Phoebe being in his life. He hasn't ever really received a gesture like this and I think this may have changed his perspective on social norms and things like 'phoniness'.
Delete"Every time I came to the end of a block and stepped off the goddam curb, I had this feeling that I'd never get to the other side of the street... I'd say to him, "Allie, don't let me dissappear. Please, Allie"(217-218)
ReplyDeleteHolden constantly feels alienated and isolated from the people around him. His dissapearances are symbolic of his alienation getting out of control. He is exhausted by his existence that he would rather dissappear. It seems as though Holden is talking about dying here, but isn't able to use that label. Some of this may show Holden not fully understanding how to deal with death, the death of his brother and his transience. Instead of facing the nature of death he makes it seem supernatural and calls it 'disappearing' instead of 'dying'. Many things he thinks about while crossing the street could be fear of death, 'displace suicidal imlulse,' a sense of cutting himself off from everyone and his grief will disappear in the transition to adulthood. His brother Allie dies young and thus never growing up himself, is a big part of Holden's fears. Because, Allie will never be an adult, Holden clings to youth. He sees Allie as an ideal person, unspoiled by the trappings of adulthood. The curbs are just metaphors for his unknown future and 'his trackless plain of life' that lies befor him. Allie is the only one Holden could turn too and count on to remain the same and recognizable in a world which he fears and despises.
I love this argument! I think it's interesting that Holden wants to be the catcher in the rye and the protector of children, but he looks up to Allie for help in his darkest hour. Is this because Allie is smarter than him, or because Allie is dead and Holden feels that his brother would understand this predicament?
Delete“It was playing “Oh Marie!” It played that same song about fifty years ago when I was a little kid. That’s one nice thing about carousels, they always play the same songs (210).”
ReplyDeleteIn these last few chapters we truly see Holden’s personality and what he actually likes to do. In the quote above he explains briefly that he likes this carousel because the music doesn't change which foreshadows him not wanting change. Also, when it started heavily raining all the parents that were waiting for their kids went under the carousel so they wouldn't get wet. On the other hand, Holden refusing to be like the others and to be in the social norm he prefers to watch Phoebe in the rain which makes him feel so happy. Adding on to that, when it starts raining he puts on his red hunting hat so the rain wouldn't get his head wet, which symbolizes the red hunting hat protecting him from other forces like growing up from a kid to an adult. Finally, in the last few lines of the book Holden explains how hard it is to change and move on and people that you won’t see any more despite that you hated them you will start missing them and he gets very emotional about the topic.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I thought the observation of Holden watching Phoebe on the carousel in the rain was very interesting. Also, going a little further with what you said on the music never changing in the carousel, the music reveals Holden's fear of change. We talked a lot about this phenomenon in class and I think this event is a prime example. Holden's feels a sense of comfort through the music. The fact that the music hasn't changed at the carousel is comforting to Holden.
Delete"Then all of a sudden, you'd never guess what I saw. Another 'f*** you.' It was written with a red crayon or something..."(204).
ReplyDeleteRed is a color that appears repeatedly throughout the book, and I believe it is associated with innocence, childhood, and protection. Holden’s hunting hat expresses protection while Allie and Phoebe’s hair are tied to two children. So when an inappropriate phrase used in adulthood is written with the color of innocence here, the fact that the interpretations of these objects could contradict in such a way stands out. A phrase that would ruin what childhood represents written in a color that represents what childhood is. Holden then realizes that with everything good in the world, there is something bad to go against it. There’s always a counter-opposite and he is not accepting of that. We all know Holden is against change, but perhaps the phrase written in red ink represents Holden, an almost adult trying to cover himself with innocence.
"The thing with kids is, if they want to grab for the gold ring, you have to let them do it, and not say anything. If they fall off, they fall off". (232)
ReplyDeleteThis passage takes place at the carrousel while Holden is watching Phoebe nearly fall off reaching for the gold ring during her ride. This passage could be viewed in a wide variety of ways. I chose to look at it as Holden being somewhat envious of this quote. Throughout the book, as we have talked about in class, Holden seems to have a soft sport for children and likes them very much. For example, he is always talking about Phoebe and how perfect a person she is and how smart she is for her age. Additionally, when he sees the boy singing in the street he recognizes him and thinks positively about him, he also offers the girl hot chocolate with him because he enjoys kids' company. I think one of the reasons Holden enjoys the company of children is because there are times where he wants to be one. For example, he never cares weather is hunting hat is on the right way or if the color red is too vibrant. He wishes people never judged him. I think this quote, especially the end sums up Holden. "If they fall off they fall off." While Holden has many opinions he is fairly easy going and seems to sometimes not have a care in the world. "If you fall, off you fall off.
I agree that Holden likes kids because he wants to be one. However, I thought of "If they fall off, they fall off" differently. To me, Holden thinks only kids are aloud to fall, not grown ups. This is because kids are not judged like adults are. If a kid falls, they fall, its not a big deal. But when an adult falls, they are a failure.
Delete"That's the whole trouble. You can't ever find a place that's nice and peaceful, because there isn't any. You may think there is, but once you get there, when you're not looking, somebody'll sneak up and write "Fuck you" right under your nose" (224).
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote reflects two major themes in Catcher in the Rye.
The first is Holden's desire to be the catcher in the rye, the protector of children. He wants to give children a nice, peaceful environment to grow up in, where they won't become phonies. He is referencing how maturity sneaks up on you, and how quickly a child becomes an adult by going over his metaphorical cliff. The "Fuck you" comes so suddenly, everyone has to face it or be left behind. Holden thinks this is unfair for children to deal with.
This quote is also a nod to the setting of the novel. Holden sees New York City as an unforgiving, mean, lonely place. However, he recognizes that many tourists see it as a paradise. His thoughts in response to these assumptions are always critical: he knows that the city is not all that they dream it will be, and this quote is an allegory for his criticisms.
I realize I have the same quote as Joanna. Although my arguments are different, I acknowledge hers as well! They are a terrific take on the same quote.
Delete"That's the whole trouble. You can't ever find a place that's nice and peaceful, because there isn't any. You may think there is, but once you get there, when you're not looking, somebody'll sneak up and write "Fuck you" right under your nose," (204).
ReplyDeleteI think this another great example of how everything in Holden's life seems to be tainted by these tiny little negatives. Another example of this is how one of the few people that Holden really respected in Mr. Antolini ends up being a so called perv. I believe that this has really been the story of Holden's life. Everything that looks like it's helping Holden ends up being torn away from him. I think Holden is starting to realize this. It's almost like Holden is admitting defeat to life. He is starting to think that he'll never find happiness because every time Holden gets close someone or something ends up placing him back on square one.
Interesting point about how everything in Holdens life is kind of falling apart... I agree completly but what do you mean when you say that he has nothing left? I feel that Holden still has some spark in his life... such as his little sister phoebe. Holden is a very defeated character throughout the whole book, but finds light to get through I think Holden is hanging on Phoebe to guide him to keep him happy.
Delete"I was the only one left in the tombstone, but you know what? I liked it." (pg 224)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden like to be with people a lot and at other times likes to be completly alone?
I think that Holden as we all know is a very conflicted character in the book. Holden doesnt know who he is or what kind of things he likes blah blah blah. Basiclly holden hasnt figured himself out yet. Through all of that Holden doesnt know what he wants in life. Sometimes he always wants to be with people... while other times he just wants tobe left totally alone. In some ways it makes sence because in very dramatic stresfull moments of your life you want to be left completly alone while in other moments you want other people around you to be there for you to help you. I think Holden though craves attention and when he gets it he gets it in vast amounts... the times where he hates getting attention is almost like a cool down period.
In conclusion I think that Holden ends the book in a very dramatic way Holden still doesnt know who he is... maybe he never will... but that is what makes him unique.
"About all I know is, I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice. It's funny. Don't ever tell anybody anything."(pg.234)
ReplyDeleteThe end of the novel reveals a lot about Holden. It shows even though he had problems with everybody he still missed them at the end. This shows that even though he says he is all that he still has a soft spot. He still has a part in him that wishes he was back with Stradlater and Ackley and everything was back to "normal". Holden says "I saw something that drove me crazy. Somebody'd written (fuck you) on the wall"(221). What I'm trying to show with this quote is that he really cares about other people and younger kids. He really doesn't want any aid the younger kids to see that and find out what it means. This all ties together because it shows that even though Holden likes to act all tough he definitely has a soft spot.
“'I'm too big.' she said...
ReplyDelete'no, you're not. Go on. I'll wait for ya. Go on.' I said”(210)
How is the role of being the Catcher in the Rye reflected in Holdens actions?
Phoebe thinks she is “too big” for the carousel. In this case, too big means too old. Phoebe wanted to go on the carousel, but thinks she can't because there were “mostly very little kids” on it. Holden, judging by his tone, is upset by this, and seems almost desperate to get her to go on the carousel. He knows she wants to and he doesn't want her to limit herself from doing what she wants. This is an example of Holden's actions as catcher in the rye. I perceive falling off the cliff as falling into adulthood and conforming to more social norms. Holden is catching phoebe, protecting her from growing up and falling off the cliff, helping her to be able to do what she wants.