For tonight's blog, please choose a line from the text, quote it (with the page number), and then ask a question based off of this line. Then, try to answer your own question. Dig deep. Perhaps try out a couple of potential answers. Perhaps, in your answer, provide a piece of textual evidence from earlier in the novel. YOU MUST ALSO RESPOND TO A CLASSMATE'S QUESTION.
Format:
"...." (#).
Question:
Answer:
"...." (#).
Question:
Answer:
"My mother didn't think Jane was pretty, even. I did, though. I just liked the way she looked, that's all." (87)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it goes back to today's class discussion of how Holden portrays women. I think Holden objectifies women as just things that are there like the girls in The Lavender Room. He didn't even get to know them before he classified them as ugly, pretty and moronic. Earlier on in the book, I thought that Holden actually liked Jane; now I question that because he said that she was pretty and that was it. Does Holden like Jane or does he see her as just another girl? There are many different points in the book that seem like he doesn't see her as just some girl. He always thinks and talks about her. Even in the beginning of chapter 11, Holden starts by saying that he was thinking of Jane and Stradlater on their date. It is intriguing that when we are so far on in the book, we see a different view of Jane from Holden's perspective.
I love what you wrote here and I completely agree with what you're saying. I think judging's an issue that everyone has, it's just that it seems a lot worse with Holden because he's very frank. One of the biggest lessons we're taught is that you should never judge a book by it's cover. As much as the words are etched into our minds, I think that nobody can help judging even a little bit on appearance. However I disagree that Holden only liked Jane for her looks. When he says "I just liked the way she looked, that's all" (87) I think he's actually defending Jane because of what his mother thinks.
DeleteI totally agree that Holden does like Jane because she's only pretty. Holden states that "...I just liked the way she looked, that's all." I disagree with Lois when she says "I think he's actually defending Jane because of what his mother thinks." I positively disagree because he says "that all." I think this means that he only likes Jane because of the way she looks. All in all, Holden doesn't specifically describes if he likes Jane by her personality, however, he does say that she looks pretty to him and that's all.
Delete"I practically sat down in her lap, as a matter of fact. Then she really started to cry, and the next thing I knew, I was kissing her all over anywhere her eyes, her nose, her forehead, her all over anywhere, her ears her whole face except her mouth and all." (pg.88)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because this shows us a really personal attribute about Holden because we have never seen him really act this intimate towards anyone. I thought that it was really sweet of Holden to just hold Jane and not say anything and just comfort her. Yet on page 87 Holden says "My mother didn't think Jane was pretty, even. I did, though. I just liked the way she looked, that's all." So now I really wonder if Holden actually likes Jane for her. I don't understand how he can act so intimately towards her but just say that he only likes her for her looks. This is also another example of how much of a contradicting person Holden is. There is no doubt that Holden definitely cares about Jane more than others and actually got to know her and I think her looks are just an extra bonus.
I agree with you on questioning Holden's perspective on Jane. I also wrote about that in my post. Holden starts to reveal what he actually see in Jane. However I disagree with the fact that Jane's looks are just an added bonus. I think that Holden wouldn't say that he thought she was pretty and that's all unless he truly wanted to reveal what he might actually think of Jane.
DeleteI think you bring up a great point about how Holden acts one way, that he likes her for her, no matter if she's pretty or not, but says that he "just likes the way she looked, that's all.". In my opinion, it seems like Holden does actually like Jane; he seems to have liked her for years, but isn't quite aware that there's more to love than attraction. Just like how he talked about the people squirting water on each others faces and how they shouldn't be messing up their loved ones face because that's the only reason they should love each other, it seems like he doesn't know that you can actually like someone for who they are and not their face.
DeleteI personally believe that Holden really does love Jane for who she is, and I think that he just added the part about her looks in defense of what his mother said. When he talks about going to the movies with Jane and holding hands with her, it was clear that her looks were not the reason for his attraction to her. If he was more than happy with just holding hands with her in the dark, I think that proves that he loves her for her.
Delete"She was a funny girl, old jane. I wouldnt exactly describe her as strictly beautifu"... (86)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because its obvious that Holden loves jane for her personality even though he thinks shes not as beautiful, but then again I ask myself doesnt looks matter to Holden because on page 70 he says "if you do like her, then your supposed to like her face". I mean he likes her obviously because hes always thinking about her but then again he thinks shes not beautiful. I just think Holden is really confuse of what he wants and its also confuses me about what his point is.
I agree with you. According to Holden, "I like the way she looked, that's all." (87). I believe that this is Holden's way of defending Jane because he knows everything about her, and they have so many memories that he obviously care about her personality. He also goes to say that his mother didn't find her pretty and that even he didn't find her super attractive. (87). Here, Holden is saying that looks do not matter as much as all of the memories Jane and him had together.
DeleteRespectfully, I disagree. Holden has stated in the book that Jane has " this terrific figure". I think we've been lied to. To me it seems that Holden is trying not to make himself sound as bad as he already does. Despite the fact that he has told us about his flaws and he has claimed(or shown) not to care about what other people think of him, I believe that he doesn't want us comparing him to other stated-to-be womanizers in the book.
Delete-Divine
I agree. Holden loves Jane, but he doesn't exactly say it directly. He says all these nice things about her and her being funny and all, but he doesn't say that she's beautiful. I agree with the fact that he's probably confused and all. He's always saying different things about everyone. For example, Holden liked the way that Jane looked, but she wasn't exactly beautiful. Also, he was admiring Stradlater, but later calling him a phony. He seems to not be able to make up his mind.
DeleteI somewhat agree with you, Mandy. Holden had different perspective on same thing a lot in this book, but towards Jane, it was always the same. Holden always thought that Jane was great girl. I don't believe Holden likes Jane because of good looks. As a matter of fact, Holden states that she is not that "strictly beautiful." Holden sees much more than beauty and personality in Jane. Holden and Jane are somewhat similar.
ReplyDelete"Besides, he was such a touchy guy, it wasn't any pleasure discussing anything with him." - pg. 93
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me because it showed how hypocritical Holden can be. He wants attention to fill his loneliness, but wants attention from people that won't give him attention. He is also detached from his feelings. Holden has constantly judged and picked on people who he believed were stupid and could not hold the intelligent conversation he wanted to have. However, now that he is in the cab talking to his driver, Howard, that seems to want to talk to him, Holden detaches himself from his feelings and no longer wants to talk to him. Although he is depressed and alone, and knows he is depressed and alone, Holden detaches himself from his feelings so that he could find a reason to be alone while still believing it was someone else's fault and not his own.
"I'm the only dumb one in the family" (67).
ReplyDeleteWhen I saw this line, I stopped reading for a moment. I was amazed at how 8 words could so perfectly sum up a feeling. Especially as a teenager, there are moments when people feel hopeless. A lot of the time the root of this is comparing yourself to others or "not being good enough". For me, I am struck at what a smart person Holden is..so my question is: Why can't Holden see that he's smart?
It's easy to disagree with me and to say that Holden isn't smart, that he makes stupid choices and that he flunked out of three schools. I have two things to say to that. The first thing is that I find it so wrong to judge anyone based on grades. I grew up with state testing, and have constantly found myself being judged based on grades. People have their dreams torn away from them, just because of a bad score so what right to we have to judge Holden's brains based on his grades? The second thing is that I think there's a strong difference between a "dumb" person and dumb decisions. Holden Caufield has made some dumb decisions. Calling up a stripper, not caring about school, being rude to the women at the club, that was dumb. However especially after reading through the eyes of Holden I know that he is not dumb at all. Just confused. And that's why he can't see how smart he is, because people can't see the difference between dumb and dumb decisions.
I totally agree. I dont think hes stupid just because of his grades but theres a lot of people that dont do good in school but they have at least something they good at so its not being stupid its just that its not his thing. I mean I guess he really good in writing because stradlater askes him to do his composition for him .
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DeleteI agree with you when you said that there is a big difference between being "dumb" and making dumb decisions. I feel that Holden can't realize that he's actually smart because he is too busy thinking of what people are thinking of him all the time. Also, he makes the "dumb decisions" because he's trying to find a place to fit in with everyone else around him and isn't focusing on whats wright and whats wrong.
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I definitely agree. I always find it so depressing when people feel like there's no point in trying to improve and they feel dumb. He doesn't try too hard because there is no one to impress. He definitely makes quite a few dumb decisions, but they mostly occur by fault of society. Intelligence can't be measured by test scores.
Delete"He's so good he's almost corny, in fact. I don't exactly know what I mean by that, but I meant it." (90)
ReplyDeleteAs I read this sentence, I remembered that Holden keeps contradicting himself. Earlier in the novel he says things like "I'm the most terrific liar... it's awful." (19) and things that go against his actual opinion. This makes me wonder if Holden is changing his opinion and perspective on things because of what sounds good- social norms. Holden probably feels that he should say certain things to "fit in", even if he doesn't agree with them. I think that Holden is confused and doesn't know what to think and kind of says things all at once, which, I think, is most likely confusing him more. I wonder why he says that he hates social norms when, at the same time, he's conforming to them.
"We'll, you know the ducks that swim around in it?...Do you happen to know where they go in wintertime..." (91)
ReplyDeleteWhat does the frozen lake and duck symbolize?
Holden mentions about the ducks a couple of time in the book, so they must mean something important. I think the ducks symbolizes the state Holden is in now. Holden's life is " frozen" and he is unsure of what to do. Holden is looking for answers. Answers that will help him take the next step and he is looking to the ducks for answers. Holden wants to know how the ducks survive harsh winter. He wants to know if it's all up to him to get his life back on track or if he should wait and be dependent for help?Because of Holden being an unreliable narrator, however, it's hard to make any inference at all.
I completely agree with this he sees something in these ducks that he truly likes. Holden is wondering where to go now he is frozen in between being a child and being an adult. The cab driver Horowitz tells him that the fish in the lake get frozen right with the lake and do not move all winter. Holden wants to be able move away from the frozen lake like a duck but at the moment he is frozen with nowhere to go like the fish.
DeleteI agree with this and how you compared the frozen lake to how "frozen" Holden's life is right now. I feel like he is feeling really lost and doesn't know where to go from here. This is obviously the lowest point of Holden's life and he doesn't know how to get out of this state of mind. It's almost as if he can't see the light at the tunnel.
DeleteI agree, but I think that the ducks know that they can fly away when it gets cold, and Holden is definitely unaware that he can "fly away" as well. I believe that if Holden could just realize that it is in his power to make things better for himself, he would be so much more successful and productive. He needs to stop waiting for someone to come "pick him up", and he needs to "fly away" on his own.
DeleteThis is beautiful! I completely agree with you. I feel like his lonely and trying to figure out how come the duck are always together and when it get cold and they're gone where do they go, do they all go their separate way or do they stick together, if they do stick together I think want to know how they stick together. In a way his trying to use their Technic on staying together as a whole so that maybe he could try it and not feel do lonely. Throughout the chapters he mentions a lot how depressed he is and I feel like the part where he says the when the lagoon get icy his referring to that as a conflict or something his going through right now
DeleteI agree with Abdullah, Holden does have an underlining meaning to his interest in where the ducks go. I believe that the ducks symbolize Holden's situation during his expulsion. The lake is Pencey, the lake freezing is Holden being thrown out, the ducks are Holden, and where the ducks go is where Holden wants the taxi driver to take him (home). I also agree that Holden is an unreliable narrator, especially when discussing himself and his personal beliefs.
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ReplyDelete"I don't know exactly what I mean by that, but I know I mean it." (90).
ReplyDeleteWhat does this line show about Holden?
This line shows that Holden is really opinionated even when he doesn't know what he's saying. Wherever he goes, he's making comment, from calling blondes "whory" to a transvestite perverted, to his own brother a prostitute, and almost everyone else "corny" or "phony," he never really knows what he's saying himself. It just comes out without control, and even when he is unsure of it's meaning, he still feels strongly about it. This reminds me of when I'm in an argument and even when I realize I am wrong, I keep arguing just to put up a fight.
This also seems to tie in with Holden's impulses and his loneliness. He opinionated people the way he sees them, whether his opinion is correct or not. For example, the woman at the club may not have been morons, but because they weren't paying attention to him, he assumed they were. This also connects to his loneliness because he may be arguing with people as a way to connect with people and fill the pain that he has.
DeleteI agree with you completely, but I want to throw out the idea that I think Holden knows what hes thinking and what he wants he just has a hard time piecing it together in a way that makes sense. Having an opinion on something comes from having passion toward that subject and as we can see Holden is a very passionate person although he never seems to admit it. I feel like his thoughts and potential is larger than he thinks it is and that he really just needs something to be motivated by. Maybe Jane could be the motivation?
Delete"I'm always saying 'Glad to've met you' to somebody I'm not at all glad I met. If you want to stay alive you have to say that stuff"(87).
ReplyDeleteHolden is finally for once sort of realizing how he often contradicts himself. He is trying to justify why he acts phony while criticizing everybody that he thinks is a phony. This makes me wonder if he is now seeing that he is contradicting himself why does he not change by either not criticizing people or changing his own actions and how he thinks. Holden may not be comfortable in own skin yet to be able to defy social norms. He still doesn't know what he wants to be in the future. This also makes me wonder because Holden is such an unreliable narrator do the people around him see how he is hypocrite and do they like him? Holden is often not the nicest person at all and thinks quite harsh and mean things about people. The people around must have some idea of how he is and I want somebody to confront him about how he is a hypocrite so that he can really realize it.
I totally agree with what you said, Henry. I believe that Holden isn't ready to do whatever he thinks because he's not comfortable in his own skin. Holden is probably too scared to say and do what he thinks because he is trying to fit in and isn't thinking about what he really wants to say. I completely agree with you when you said that he doesn't know what he wants to be yet, and this is probably because he's getting all different perspectives on life.
DeleteA confrontation about Holder's hypocrisy is definitely needed! Every teenager needs a real talk once in a while and confronting Holder about his own faults- the one's he doesn't completely understand- will not only be beneficial to those who might negatively be affected by it, but to Holder as well who will then begin finding him self and maybe figuring out what he wants to do in life( and maybe what he shouldn't do). To add on to what Megan said, maybe after someone confronts Holden, he will begin being more comfortable in his own skin. The trouble is knowing how to do it the right way. Mr. Spencer had already tried in the beginning and with no obvious success, some other character ( maybe one of his parents or someone who isn't an adult) needs to come up with a different tactic. Crossing my fingers that it will be Jane!
Delete" 'I was just leaving,' I told her. 'I have to meet somebody.' " (97)
ReplyDeleteAt this point of Holden's life, he is intimidated by one on one confrontations especially with women. In this quote, Holden is telling an old friend of his brother, Lillian, that he is meeting up with someone instead of staying alone and leaving alone. This led me to ask: Does Holden care about his appearance in people's minds (not physical) and does Holden care what people really thinks about him?
Now this question could easily go either way but personally I believe that Holden is split. I see him as a person with one self-conscious side and one "don't care" side to his personality. Holden's don't care side is almost exclusively with men, especially guys at Pencey. Honestly, I don't think that Holden would even care if a student at Pencey said something mean because Holden has all the reasons why each person is a phony. With Holden's other side, the girls side, Holden seems to be afraid of losing every chance to possibly get with a girl. Holden sees each girl as an opportunity and most of the time he is in reach of this opportunity, he backs away from his real self and into this fake "Jim Steele", always a ladies man kind of guy. But personally I believe that he does care if people take him the wrong way.
I agree with you on this. Holden focuses to much on what people think of him. He won't be able to grow as a person if he continues down the path he is leading right now. However, it's not all his decision to treat people the way he does. The environment and influential people within make a great impact on his decision on who to respect. Living in a community like that can't really leave with supporting people that will be with you in the end. Holden needs somebody to support him, but he is having trouble finding a way to get that.
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ReplyDeleteIt drove me crazy anyway. I don't even like to talk about it, if you want to know the truth." (89)
ReplyDeleteIs Holder telling us the truth right now, when it's exactly what we want? The fact that he's telling us what he really feels about Jane with Stadlater makes me very suspicious. Since when is he honest?
I think maybe the phrase " if you want to know the truth" is just Holder being very spiteful. I can imagine him putting his chin in the air and looking down at me as he says it. I think the one time Holder tells us he's telling the truth is the biggest lie he's told us yet. As a result, i'm startring to believe that something is up between him and Jane and that that's the real reason why he's unable to communicate with her and exactly why he can't REALLY tell us why he's so upset at the idea of Jane being with Stradlater. What is holding him back?
October 1, 2014 at 7:24 PM
"I really got to know her quite intimately. I don't mean it was anything physical or anything—it wasn't—but we saw each other all the time. You don't always have to get too sexy to get to know a girl," (p.85).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me the most. However, it drew up a question in my mind. If Holden liked Jane so much, why didn't he just let Jane know how he felt?
In the book, Holden seemed to know almost everything about Jane and whenever he thought about her, he seemed to get super nervous. Holden was trying to get rid of the bad thoughts about Jane and Stradlater. He didn't want to believe that Jane would fool around with Stradlater. Like he said before, "She keeps her kings in the back row." He knows that she wouldn't do something like that because he knows what she is like. This kind of makes Holden seem a bit insecure. He could've been the one to ask Jane Gallagher out instead of Stradlater. But he wasn't. Maybe Holden was afraid of what Jane would think of him and wouldn't like him too much. But, if Holden knew everything about Jane, then he should have nothing to worry about. I mean, they were comfortable around each other other if they got to know one another. He knew her “like a book.” Holden shouldn't feel insecure or nervous or worried.
"Then she really started to cry, and the next thing I knew, I was kissing her all over-anywhere-..."(88)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Does Holden like Jane because she's pretty, or does he like her personality?
At this point of the book, Jane’s alcoholic stepfather came out to the porch where Holden and Jane were playing checkers and asked Jane for cigarettes; Jane refused to answer him, and, when he left, she began to cry. Holden held her, kissing her face and comforting her. This makes me think that Holden likes Jane only because he thinks she's pretty. I think that Holden just took advantage to kiss her because she was in sad mood. Apart from that incident, their physical relationship was mild. Any time before, they both were no where close to kissing. In this quote, Holden specifically states that, "...I was kissing her all over-anywhere-..." I could infer that Holden really didn't care about her crying, he just wanted to kiss her desperately. He says that he started to kiss her anywhere, which implies that he was already so desperate for a kiss. As stated in the novel, "My mother didn't think Jane was pretty, even. I did, though. I just liked the way she looked, that's all." This clearly indicates that Holden likes Jane only because she's pretty, nothing more than that. All in all, Holden doesn't specifically describes if he likes Jane by her personality, however, he does say that she looks pretty to him and that's all.
I totally agree with you. This makes a lot of sense. And if he was taking advantage of Jane's mood, he is not different from Stradlater, the person he says he would never be like, by taking advantage of girls. I feel like because of this Holden is being very hypocritical.
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ReplyDelete"She was the only one, outside my family, that I ever showed Allie's baseball mitt to" (pg. 87)
ReplyDeleteThis line really stood out to me because we know how much Allie's baseball mitt means to Holden. As soon as I read this I asked myself, "why did he show her?? Why Jane?". Probably because he really likes her and he wanted to show her a piece of him. A piece of his "true self". It also says that she likes to read poems, and there are poems written on the baseball mitt. By showing her the poems, he was trying to make her happy. There are other parts in the book that help to support that Holden has strong feelings for Jane. Like when he talks about how nervous he is to talk about her on page 49. Holden showed Jane Allie's baseball mitt because he likes her. I really like that he did this because it shows a side to him that we don't normally get to see.
“He was putting all these dumb, show-offy ripples in the high notes, and a lot of other tricky stuff that gives me a pain in the ass. You should’ve heard the crowd though, when he was finished, they went mad. You would’ve puked.” (94)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Does the need to follow the crowd make an individual “phony”?
There have been many examples throughout the book of what Holden considers phony/ corny and I’m assuming he considers Ernie’s, (the piano player) talent a bit phony, because he says it “gives him a pain in the ass”. After this section in the book, Holden goes on to describe the crowd’s reaction to the performance being like the “same morons that laugh like hyenas in the movies at the stuff that isn’t funny.” This got me thinking, does Holden really find that people themselves are solitarily “phony”, or does all of society contribute to an individual’s phoniness? Is it the great talent that Holden finds fake, or does Holden find the attention and applause that comes after the performance the phoniness? In this instance, I first thought that Holden found the cliché, excellent piano-playing talent that Ernie has, phony, but when he went on to mention the crowd’s reaction to the performance, I started to think Holden might not exactly blame all the phonies he points out- maybe he truly sees that there is no such thing as individuals being “phony”, because all of society contributes to this phoniness, making everyone a phony on some level…?
I totally agree with what you are saying and I wrote something similar in my post. I'm still somewhat confused on what Holden thinks being a phony really is, but I think people that follow the crowd definitely stand out to Holden and not in a good way. On page 86, he talks about the fact that he would be a phony if he did something he hated just to get the approval of society. Holden seems to not understand that everyone is going to do something they don't like to not be judged, but does that give him the right to categorize as phonies from one thing. In response to your last question, I somewhat disagree, I don't believe there's such thing as phonies. I think there are people that follow the crowd for approval and there's nothing wrong with that, and then there are people like Holden who pretend they don't follow the crowd but end up judging people in the worst way. It's because of people like Holden that there are "phonies" in the world, people don't like being judged so they try to fit in.
Delete"'The fish, that's different. The fish is different. I'm talking about the ducks.' ... 'If you was a fish, Mother Nature'd take care of you, wouldn't she? Right? You don't think them fish just die when it gets to be winter do ya?'." (page 93)
ReplyDeleteWhat is the comparison of Holden's life to the fish?
I previously mentioned that Holden feels a bit like the birds, in the sense that he doesn't really belong anywhere, and has to leave like the birds in the wintertime. However, now there are these fish, too. I feel like the fish might represent people like Stradlater. The fish don't have to leave. They don't have to worry about not fitting in or dying like Holden or the birds. They seem to know exactly where they belong. Holden says that the birds and the fish are different from each other because he's sort of comparing them to his own life.
I completely agree with your whole post- (I was tempted to use this quote too!) I do think it is valid and accurate to compare the ducks to people like Holden, and the fish to people like Stradlater. Besides this though, on page 92, the cab driver says to Holden, "It's tougher for the fish, the winter and all, then it is for the ducks for Chrissake. Use your head, for Chrissake." If we read this quote thinking that the ducks represent people like Holden, and the fish represent people like Stradlater, then the cab driver is essentially saying life it tougher for the big shots- people who have ambition, but life is easier for those that do not seek this. This is just my interpretation, but I do not think this is the type of response Holden would hope for, the response in which the cab driver down plays the struggles of the ducks.
DeleteI loved this quote and i agree and disagree with you Gemma, I feel that it can go both ways. The fish can be representing the Stradlaters of the world. However, what if this new quote that kind of threw Holden off guard is a new way of thinking that the cab driver introduces to him. Holden probably always thought he was a duck wandering around a frozen lake waiting to see where he has to go next, but what if Holden is the fish? As a child Holden could have been much happier, he climbed up 12 stories he had fun with his siblings and Jane, but once Allie died it shattered everything and time stopped and the lake froze. Holden can be fish in a frozen lake that hasn't thawed in a while but is still surviving. He has to find a way out.
DeleteP.S. sorry i like ruined this in class i didn't know i read too far
oh but the fish travel in schools which can symbolize Pencey
DeleteWhile the ducks travel in flocks representing the long-necked quacking misfits like Holden.
I don't know what I think
"People are always ruining things for you." (98)
ReplyDeleteDoes Holden feel like his life is going nowhere?
Holden lives a life of depression, regret, and hatred. He blames others for everything that goes wrong in his life and is always speaking badly about people. This quote from the book was really thought-provoking for me. Does Holden still have any hope? He doesn't have much of a plan as of now, and all he's doing is trying to get girls and get drunk at clubs and bars. This makes me think that Holden thinks that he is a failure and that his life is ruined. It also makes me wonder why Holden doesn't take responsibity for his actions. He's always talking about things that people have done to him and ways people have been rude to him, but he never considers the fact that he might have something to do with the sadness of his life.
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DeleteI disagree with you, Elana. I feel like he has not yet given up with his life even though he has a "Prostitute" come to his room and have sex with him. Holden still has hope even though this all happened. "I didn't thank her or anything. I'm glad I didn't." (110) This shows he has a reputation to maintain and that he respects himself. The fact that he didn't say thank you to the prostitute is because he knew what he did was wrong. There is still hope with holden because he is just trying to find his place in the world. He continuously asks about the pond in Central Park and where the ducks fly to. Holden is waiting to find a place for himself just like the ducks do.
Delete"Anyways, it made me feel depressed and lousy again" (pg 94) . Throughout the the chapters we read he keeps saying his depressed and lonely.
ReplyDeleteWhy is he so depressed?
I feel like Holden is just Lost and he just doesn't have a life which is making him depressed and lonely. While his in New York he doesn't stay in one place, he constantly keep going to different location like if he were lost and doesn't know where exactly to go. His only 16, I don't think a 16 year old shouldn't be going out on his own the way Holden does, his parent don't even know he got kicked out of Pencey. I think the reason why his so depressed is because not only did he get kicked out of Pencey but his on his own in the sense that one of his brother died the other is Hollywood and his little sister is just little and living with mom and dad, and then mom and dad seem to not really care about him because it's been a while sense Holden had been on his own and they don't even know that his in N.Y and got kicked out of Pencey, in a way his on his own and I feel like he wishes he had somebody, like when he talks about Jane he says so many beautiful thing and the time they spend together and then he talks about the couple he saw while he walked to his location that really shows that his lonely and that he wishes he has somebody which is why his so depressed.
"She had on a green dress underneath. Then she sort of sat down sideways on the chair that went with the desk in the room and started jiggling her foot up and down."
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden confronts the "prostitute" he immediately takes notice of everything about her. We can take this part of chapter to really see the hypoctricy Holden can demonstrate throughout the book. For example, just a couple chapters ago, Holden was growing more and more angered when Stradlater kept taking about Sally. Especially when he said that she had "no alternative." However Holden talks about how the "prostitute" had no alternative, because he was being "seductive as hell." We talked in class today about how Holden treated women, and I think we can conclude that he's quite a jerk. He did exactly what Stradlater did with Sally, even though Holden said he wouldn't do anything like that. I believe Holden needs to get his act together, because what he's doing now won't pay off in the future.
"The trouble was, I just didn't want to do it. I felt more depressed than sexy." (107)
ReplyDeleteWhy is Holden so depressed, and what does he want?
All Holden wanted when he came to the Hotel room was someone to be with, or have sex with someone. Finally when he has the opportunity "to do it with" Sunny he rejects the sex completely and then asks if she wants to talk. Holden says, "Don't you feel like talking for a while?" but Sunny doesn't want to talk. All this time he wanted to talk to someone, but everyone has rejected him so far. The rejection, and the mistreatment of Holden making him so depressed. "So I ended up not calling anybody. I came out of the booth, after about twenty minutes or so, and got my bags and walked over to that tunnel where the cabs are and got a cab." (67) The fact that Holden has no one to talk to or be with may cause him to start feeling useless and lonely. This may be making Holden not know what to do, and this may cause him to be depressed.
"It made me mad though when I was getting my coat, people are always ruining things for you."(pg.98)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: When will Holden realize that he has to look out for himself and help his own life?
I believe that Holden isn't doing a great job right now with helping out his current situation. All of his decisions have contributed to his loneliness and depression. For example, Leaving Pencey for New York and knowing he couldn't call any family members and that he'll be by himself. That only made him even lonelier and didn't help his situation at all. I think he needs to step back and realize his own decisions are making his life as bad as it is.
I see what you are saying here and I sort of disagree with Holden's actions here. When he says this i got really irritated. It was his decision to get up and leave the club after seeing Lillian, but his lie led him to "have" to go. I feel if he just said "nice to see you but i'm fine here" or something like that he wouldn't have been obligated to leave entirely. He was being a phony anyway pretending to enjoy her presence. No one made him do anything, he did it to himself.
Delete"...but she was even funnier-looking than he was, so I guess she had to listen. Real ugly girls have it tough. I feel so sorry for them sometimes. Sometimes I can't even look at them, especially if they're with some dopey guy..." (111)
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why does Holden talk this way about women?
Answer: Holden seems to be very judgmental, especially towards women. Holden probably talks about women this way because as we said in class, the first thing he notices about them is their appearance and that's all he seems to care about. Holden judges women based on their looks and not their personality. Earlier in the book, Holden talks about how Stradlater treats girls and he says that he would never do something like that, but by talking this way about women he doesn't even know, seems very hypocritical and rude.
"I almost was once in a movie short, but I changed my mind at the last minute. I figured that anybody that hates the movies as much as I do, Id be a phony if I let them stick me in a movie short." (86)
ReplyDeleteMy question from this quote is, how and when is a person a phony, in Holden's opinion, and is he ever one?
I feel like throughout the book we have read over and over again about the many people Holden thinks are phonies. Holden has called people from his teachers to random people on the street phonies. I think this quote helps explains what Holden thinks s phony is. Holden seems to think that if he were to go in a movie short, even though he hates movies, he would be a phony because he did it for the attention and approval of other people/society. The reasoning for Holden not liking movies chips into the whole idea that actors are phonies. I think Holden is a phony at times, and he knows it, but he tries to cover it up. He changes his looks and always lies to better the situation he is in. Although, he makes excuses for the reasons he lies, such as not being able to control it, I think Holden knows that, maybe he isn't a phony, but he tries to change just as much as everyone else does so that they can fit in.
"You never even worried, with Jane, whether your hand was sweaty or not. All you knew was, you were happy. You really were" (103)
ReplyDeleteIf Jane bring Holden so much joy why doesn't he go and talk to her when she's downstairs at Pencey?
In class we talked about Holden not going downstairs because he was afraid of being compared to Stradlater but I dont think thats the case. Holden nearly throws a tantrum just thinking about Jane and talking about her, imagine what he'd be like coming face to face with her. Coming face to face with Jane means coming face to face with his past. Holdens created a facade in that if he lies enough maybe all the things wrong in his life will temporarily disappear. Jane symbolizes the part of Holden that never moved on from his brothers death because he never had the chance to. He was never nurtured through that time. As a teenager in times of hardship you're supposed to look back on the life lessons taught to you by your parents or grandparents etc and have some sense of direction. I get the feeling that Holden didn't ever get these lessons since he's been in and out of multiple schools. Additionally, Jane knows a side of Holden that has been suppressed for so long that once resurfaced could really change the way Holden sees himself.
I like that you related Jane and Allie as links that both commonly contributing to Holden's past, present, and future. But is there also a side that can be represented that Jane just symbolizes Jane!? Everything else in the story has a connection to something but what if Jane is the connection that he has with the person he wants to be.
DeleteHolden is not phony around Jane, he can't lie to her' he can't "shoot the bull". Jane takes away his nerves, makes him honest, and just a better person. Holden becomes different when he talks about Jane. When he says "she has a pretty face" i feel he is trying to hide something with a deeper meaning he possibly loves her and doesn't understand his feelings. He can be justifying the way he acts around her just like he has justified everything else so far. Jane is different to him. She can be just "old Jane".
"I didn't do it because i felt like walking or anything...Sometimes you get tired of riding in taxicabs the same way you get tired riding in elevators. All of a sudden you have to walk, no matter how far or how high up" (98)
ReplyDeleteHolden sometimes comes to solutions for his problems but why does he never execute them?
This statement didnt stand out to me at first but when i looked back it seemed to jump off the page it was showed in a new light almost had a new meaning. When Holden says this he is walking back to the hotel from Ernie's, on this walk he was most likely alone therefore being left with his own thoughts.
Holden is walking and he didn't really want to but he decided to, when he says, "all of a sudden" you have to walk, what i believe is that since Allie passed away and since all he started feeling was "yellow", he lost himself. He didn't know that this was going to happen to him so he is all of a sudden needing to walk, alone, with no one who can tell him the right path. Holden has to start "walking" but he does not take his own advice and cut the bs, he has to start to do something.He cant keep calling things one bad and doing them on his own, he cant keep lying to himself. He is a lost soul walking alone at night in this empty street looking for a way to feel less depressed. Though everyone is a little lost Holden seems to be lost in himself and the world.
"She makes me so nervous , I just kept on lying my head off" (pg 108)
ReplyDeleteWhy does this stranger make Holden so nervous?
Holden is known for being judge mental in his own way. Wether it's calling people "phony" or analyzing the slight smell of a room Holden is extremely critical. Therefore it brings up the idea on how he may lie to cover up being judged the same way he judges others. If Holden wasn't insecure he'd have no problem being truthful espicially to a stranger yet because he knows deep down that others will perceive him as the exact opposite of he wants to be/become he rather lie his way through life. Holden's lies I feel are a direct tie to some kind of disconnect with his inner identity once he finds out who he is , and isn't ashamed I don't think strangers would make him as nervous anymore.
"... She put her finger in the dark near my face. You'd like her." Ph. 76
ReplyDeleteThis quote poses a question, which is whether Allie and Phoebe have the same amount of moral value to Holden or not. The last part of the quote shows by telling the reader that he or she would like Phoebe. In an earlier part of the book Holden says that the reader would have liked Allie. We can tell from the text that Allie means a lot to Holden because he decides to smash the windows of a garage in his rage because of Allie's death. And for almost the rest of the book has nothing bad to say about Phoebe. The connection between these two characters is that they seem to understand Holden better than anyone else. Phoebe is kind and sensitive to Holden's problems just like Allie. I can conclude that Holden has the same feelings about Phoebe as he does Allie.