Choose a line from the text and explain why
it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem
important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a
connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about
Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in
general?
Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
"Then I started reading this timetable I had in my pocket. Just to stop lying. Once I get started, I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours." - Page 58
ReplyDeleteThis brings me back to Chapter 3 when he said, "I am the most terrific liar." Maybe this shows how he is taken away by distractions, kind of like everyone in the real world. He takes the time of lying away and reading this book, as he said before he likes to read. What if reading is the only way that Holden can be nice or at least more peaceful. Either way, it shows a little part of Holden, showing what hobbys or attractions he has.
I was going to choose this quote! I think that lying is a big theme in this book. Holden teaches the readers through wrong actions, that lying is an awful thing to do. In this moment, Holden can not stop lying so he resorts to his timetable. I agree with you, in general, reading and writing help Holden escape from his life. The characters might be somewhat relatable to Holden and what he is going through. When Holden opens up, it is when he is reading or writing. An example of this is when he writes the composition for Stradlater. He is mad and writing helps him calm down. It also helps him release emotions about his brother. Holden is only truly apparent and somewhat truthful to the reader when he is reading or writing.
Delete"'Rudolf Schimdt,' I told her. I didn't feel like giving her my whole life story." (p54-55)
ReplyDeleteThis life was very interesting to me yet very ironic as well. Holden says that he doesn't want to give Morrow's mom his life story, which is understandable. In the beginning of the book, he says that he is going to try to stay away from his past. So if Holden can't trust the reader and tell us his life story then there is probably no way he will tell anyone else. To keep who he is a secret, Holden even tells Morrow's mom that his name was Rudolf Schimdt. Just in case his mom talks to Morrow about meeting Holden, he won't recognize who really spoke with his mother. Next, to keep the topic from coming back to him, Holden starts to talk about how shy and naive Ernest really is, even though he isn't. He does this because in the book Holden says, "You take somebody's mother, all they want to hear about is what a hot-shot their son is." He does this because Mrs.Morrow would keep talking about Ernest and really wouldn't refer back to what Holden (Rudolf) is doing in his life.
Although you did raise some valid points, I have to disagree with you. He says he doesn't feel like giving her his whole life story, and he doesn't. He gives the one of "Rudolf Schmidt." He tells her about how he got hit in the face with a snowball, how he can order drinks, (this is a Holden characteristic) but how his hair is partly gray, how everyone is fine at home, and how he has a mini tumor that's on the outside of his brain that can be "taken out in two minutes."
DeleteWhen I first read that line, I immediately considered that Holden’s last name, Caulfield might be a famous one. This would explain why Ms.Morrow might be inquisitive of Holden’s past after hearing his name and the reason we might want to know about it at the beginning of the book, “the first thing you’ll probably want to know .....” (pg.1). A playwright brother, a house on the east side of New York city, and two parents who would “ ...have about two hemorrhages apiece if I told anything pretty personal about them.”, could possibly add a up to a famous family, and may even be the reason why Holden is less open about his past to us the reader. Often, Holden also puts up fronts to hide his emotions,something one who is famous would be experienced and good at.
DeleteI personally think it is as plan and simple as he didn't want Mrs.Morrow talking to her son about Holden and the things he did at Pency because then he thinks Mrs.Morrow will have a preconceived judgement of Holden based on what her son Ernest said about him assuming it was bad.
Delete“ I didn’t give a damn how I looked” (pg.33)
ReplyDeleteFor me, this quote symbolizes many of Holden’s characteristics, especially his disregard of his physical appearance. Even though we can understand from page 18, “very corny I’ll admit”, that Holden is aware of how he looks and other’s possible views on him based on his garb, like his red hunting hat turned around being considered strange, Holden still does not care and continues to wear his hunting hat in it’s corny style, because he “liked it that way”. But even though we can tell Holden might not care about his physical appearance, the fact that he claims to be a liar and immediately refuses to talk about his past lets me question how much Holden really cares about his other appearances nevertheless, like his self confidence and possible phoniness. His frequent criticism of others and neglect of past and feelings points to an insecure teenager, Holden, even though he constantly denies “giving a damn” about anything. By reading this quote and reflecting on previous passages I was struck with the insight that Holden’s often self-confident visage might be a cover for what lies underneath, his true thoughts and feelings, obscured to the world by this so-called front of “not caring”. That his bright red, turned around, corny looking hunting hat is used by Holden to mask his feelings from others, like his discomfort from loosing the foils, or tears over leaving Pencey, and protect the tough, “not caring” appearance that he sets up for everyone, including himself.
I was gonna use that quote! I agree with you Beatrice. I feel like in my opinion, Holden in a way does care about the way he looks. Throughout the book he's constantly bringing up how "corny" things are, which confuses me a lot. Is Holden only saying that to make himself look less corny?
DeleteI believe that Holden describes things as corny so often, not to take away from his own corniness but simply to feel more secure about himself. (In response to Celeste's comment)
DeleteI strongly agree with you. I think that Holden is aware that he might be funnier looking than others (his gray hair, the way he wears his hat), and I think that he just says that he doesn't care so that he doesn't have to face his lack of self confidence. Also a bit later in the book when Holden is walking to the train station late at night in the snow on his way home from Pencey he wears his hat oddly and says that he doesn't care about people thinking he looks funny because no one is around to see him. This implies that he would care if people thought that he looked funny if it was day time, and people were around. I am starting to think that maybe something happened to him as child that has made him care so much about not caring about his appearance, maybe he was bullied as a child.
Delete"We got to the Edmont Hotel, and I checked in. I'd put on my red hunting cap when I was in the cab, just for the hell of it, but I took it off before I checked in."
ReplyDeleteI think that this quotation is giving us a big hint as to what the red hunting hat symbolizes. I think that the hat symbolizes protection from the
world around him, but I would think that if it did symbolize protection then he wouldn't have put it on in the cab, 'just for the hell of it', he would have put it on because he was lost and confused and needed protection. I think that when he puts his hat on he feels safe, and once he was in the hotel he was safe and didn't need the hat so he took the hat off. I could also be completely misinterpreting this and he could have just been cold, and once he got into the hotel he was warm so took the hat off. When the hat is previously mentioned he puts it on in a wide range of scenarios, he puts it on while writing about his little brother dying, and also after his fight with Stradlater, both situations go with my idea of the hat being for protection. I think that the other random circumstances that he wears the hat might just be because he is cold, or just wants to, there is not always a deeper meaning to the situation he wears his hat in.
I agree that the hat might symbolize him protecting himself from the world but I disagree that there always isn’t a deeper meaning behind him wearing the red hunting hat. In my opinion, Holden puts the hat on in order to hid his emotions from the world because he doesn’t want to seem weak, so he puts up a “front”. This is seen when he is crying about leaving Pencey but hides it by putting his hat on as a protector or a boost of confidence in order for him to say “‘Sleep tight, ya morons!”’ (page 52). The hat also symbolizes him not wanting to tell his story to the world.
DeleteI agree with Marion because the points you raise are ones that really establish the role of the red hunting cap as a symbol in this book. Why would he specifically put it on after the fight and after talking about Allie’s death if it wasn’t something that would protect him? One other part of the book that seems to also provide evidence towards the hunting cap being something that helps Holden be braver is that he ears the hat when he’s talking to Ackley and Stradlater. Although we don’t know if he talks like this to them all the time, he might not have the courage to keep on asking about Jane and bothering Stradlater if he didn’t feel protected by the hat. I defiantly agree with you and all the pieces of evidence you use are really strong ones.
DeleteI don't believe you're misinterpreting this at all, this quote definitely helps us see what the hat means to Holden. As I said in class, I too believe the hat symbolizes protection and what I find interesting from the quote is that he takes it off before he checks in. If he thinks he looks so good in it and doesn't care what others think, why would he say "but I took it off before I checked in" meaning that he either didn't feel comfortable or was embarrassed by the hat which he never has been before.
Delete“It was the address of this girl that wasn’t exactly a whore or anything but that didn’t mind doing it once in a while...” (Page 63)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because it shows the reader that Holden doesn’t only lie to the people around him, but also to himself. I say this because he thinks about calling Jane, his crush, when he is alone in his crumby hotel room but comes up with excuses about it being late and him not being in the mood to do it. This isn’t the case when he decides to call a girl who he claims, “wasn’t a whore” but still didn’t mind “doing it once in a while”. It felt as if he was trying to say that she was a whore but that that wasn’t the case when it was up to him. This quote also made me question the standards that Holden sets for himself. To me, it seems that he doesn’t set high standards for himself because his afraid of failure, which can be seen throughout the pervious chapter with him trying to avoid thinking about the future.
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ReplyDeleteI like totally agree with what your saying like the fact that he is afraid of failure. He doesn't set high standards like what you said because if he fails it makes him look weak on the outside and if people start to see he is weak then he is afraid of not only what other people think about him but how he is perceived by others. which is why he puts up a "front" or a wall between him and the rest of the world. Also the fact that he is talking about a girl who doesn't mind doing it once a while shows a lot about who Holden is as a person. I also agree that he is making excuses to not contact Jane and just talk to her because lets say for some reason she tells him she doesn't want to talk to him and he is going to feel rejected and rejection is not a good feeling so he doesn't call her because he doesn't know what the outcome is if he calls her.
Delete"The trouble was, that kind of junk is sort of fascinating to watch, even if you don't want it to be... I mean that's my big trouble. In my mind, I'm probably the biggest sex maniac you ever saw. Sometimes i can think of very crumby stuff I wouldn't mind doing if the opportunity came up." pg 62
ReplyDeleteThis line shocked me and it stood out to me the most. When I think of Holden and his approach on girls, I don't really think of sex maniac, I think of awkward and innocent. For example, when he spoke about Jane he didn't really say anything out there, or anything fond. He just remembered her chess pieces and that she was nice. Holden isn't really experienced with girls, or the idea of love in general which brings out a less confident and awkward side of him. Making him look like a 12 year old boy instead of a 16 and a half one. But then again he does say it's in his MIND, and we all know how good Holden is at hiding his feelings or parts of who he really is, we've said it thousands of times.
I agree. My response is similar because I never really thought Holden was the type to show his feelings about girls. I thought he was just a geek that rather do other peoples homework while others were in the football game. Holden shocked me in this part as well because he doesn't say those thought that go through his mind then, so why show his feelings for girls now for the first time and never say what he's actually thinking. He says everything thats on his mind but he never told us about what he though about girls. I was actually starting to think Holden was gay because he never talked about liking other girls in such a way. The way he described her smoking is incredible because he said so much details that you could almost picture her in your head inhaling and "wolf the smoke down" which is a weird term he uses for that part.
DeleteI have very fascinated by this quote. I thought Holden revealing his feelings towards shows his sensitive,awkward, and weird personalty. In movies/TV the jock always gets the girls and nerds or geeks just keep trying to impress them with his "interesting" personalty. Personally, I'm like Holden myself because I have that same type of personalty traits when I'm around a guy and I have crush on them.(Sorry that was off topic). Holden showing his feelings towards girls not only tells us 16 year old perspective by thinking about girls.
Delete“That hat I’d bought had earlaps in it, and I put them on-I didn’t give a damn how I looked. Nobody was around anyways. Everybody was in the sack.” (53)
ReplyDeleteThis line stands out to me because it is one important example of how the red hunting cap is a symbol. I thought this because he puts it on in the previous chapters to feel brave, so I was wondering why he put the hat on here. I think maybe he wanted to have some comfort since he was leaving Pencey. Maybe he was feeling lonely and he really needed something to make him feel better or he wanted to just be himself for a second. I think that is particularly shown when he says that he “didn’t give a damn how he looked.” He usually cares a lot about how he looks and is very insecure when there are other people that might be judging him. One thing that I learned about Holden from this quote was that he really is insecure. I hadn’t really believed him and had thought that there were other explanations to his actions but this quote seemed to cement that he is insecure and he does care how he looks. One example I saw of this in the earlier chapters was how he talked a lot about Stradlater and Ackley’s grooming habits. I realize now that since he was so insecure about his own look, he had to obsess over other peoples looks. This quote also had an example of Holden lying. When he says that he doesn’t care how he looks, he’s lying because we know from previous passages that he does really care. I think maybe the hat helps him not care as it lets him “shoot people”. I think this quote also is significant because it shows how he doesn’t have any real friends. Holden is leaving Pencey for good and he doesn’t even say goodbye to anyone. He is leaving alone. If it was anyone else, someone would at least walk with him to the cab, but since Holden doesn’t have any friends, he doesn’t have anyone to say goodbye to. This quote is significant because it shows how insecure Holden is and how the red hunting hat is an important symbol the author is using so that we can understand Holden better.
“The trouble was, that kind of junk is fascinating to watch, even if you don’t want it to be.” (Page 62)
ReplyDeleteI believe that this quote is significant, because this is a point in The Catcher in the Rye when I feel like I can really connect with Holden Caulfield’s character. In life, there are a lot of things that we will grow to be “fascinated in,” as Holden puts it, things we know we should overlook. In the most indirect sense, this quote reminds me a lot of childhood experiences—not only my own, but also of others—of the days when we, as children, immersed ourselves in activities we knew would be considered morally wrong, but we went along and got involved in them anyway. We would skip nights of studying to chat with our friends . . . friends that we would end up forgetting by the end of the year. We would do things to keep our content state of minds, things that we knew we would end up regretting the next day. The trouble is, junk is fascinating to get involved in, even if you don’t want it to be.
I completely agree with what you’re saying and completely understand. As we grow up, we begin to strive away from the childhood we were once living in. The feeling to make something of my childhood always makes me question what I’m spending my time doing. Of course as kids we want to have the most fun we can, thinking about the now, we want to make sure we spend every second of our life not wasting time and doing exactly what we want to do. But thinking about the future keeps us grounded. It reminds how there are limits to our actions and we must prepare ourselves for the lives we will soon live. Remembering past is always important. Knowing what happened and how we felt at one point tells us how we should feel during a similar life experience we may encounter in the future.
DeleteI disagree that this quote has something to do grow to be "fascinated in " I think specifically talks about Holden's interactions towards girls "For instance, that girl that was getting water squirted all over her face, she was pretty good looking."(pg.62) It shows in Chapter 6 that he has initial reactions with girls by bringing up his Jane and explaining her quirky thing when she play checkers by keeping her kings in the back row. His awkwardness and being innocent when referring to the experience of having Sex, makes him that he's not quite ready for it. Even though, He is 16 year old, this is one example of when he talks about acting like different ages kicks in. "I act quite young for my age sometimes." (pg.9)
DeleteAfter reading your claims I can totally agree with you. I agree with you, because not only is this quote the sheer truth about our childhood memories but also, because it sounds a lot like Holden. For instance, when I read this quote for the first time I immediately felt that Holden was speaking to me since only Holden could say many things that can be interpreted in many ways and that could say things that can be so thought provoking and interesting all at the same time. I really enjoyed the way you tied back the quote to your childhood memories since I’m sure I wouldn’t have thought up and idea that is so original just the way Holden is.
Delete"...I guess, but she was very good-looking.Woman kill me. They really do.I don't mean I am oversexed or anything like that--althought I am quite sexy..." (Pg70-my book has different pages so it is not the same in all the books)
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings about this passage because on one hand he sound sarcastic and he is making fun of his looks which makes him look insecure and make me feel bad for him ,but on the other hand he sounds really cocky and the whole insecurity front he has been putting up to us in the past chapters is gone .he opens up about his brothers that passed away and he really shows the reader that he is more then just a rude ,hypocritical person.... then he says this ... I don't think I have a reason to feel bad for him anymore. - Nayah Ferris
"She looked nice smoking. She inhaled and all, but she didn't wolf the smoke down, the way most women around her age do. She had a lot of charm. She had quite a lot of sex appeal, too, if you really want to know."
ReplyDeleteTHis quote stood out to me while reading because as we said today in class Holden always puts a front for the audience and for once he thinks a girl is attractive ? I was so shocked I had to reread this line a few times to make sure I read that right. He said "She had quite a lot of sex appeal" I was so shocked that he said this. I think he forgets to put his front up. This is why I think he is just a phony because he always forgets to put his front up. I think that Salinger does this on purpose so that we can see that Holden just puts up a front to act tough. I can relate to this because when I don't want people to know something I put up a front so thats like Holden. I think he also wants to put a front while he's smoking because he's not really "about that life" I think he whats to show off so they wont think he's a punk. Holden for once shows his feelings for a girl and the way he describes her, is outrages because I never thought we would hear that from Holden the "tough guy". To me Holden is a phony trying to put up a front.
I agree with the beginning I to was so shocked that he opened up so quickly about a women and I guess his “sex appeal” However I do not think this shows him as phony but as real. Everyone has something that they do not really want to open up about. This shows volubility in Holden as a character, which to me makes him realer. Holden shows this side that can open us so quickly but also this side that is scared to which is like any human being I think.
Delete“The only reason I didn’t do it was because I wasn’t in the mood.”
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because it shows Holden as this unmotivated boy. Personally I am a fan of Holden. I like him as a character and a person. I wish he were a real character. I would be his friend. (Sorry that was off topic.) Anyway I think the idea of him being unmotivated had to do with other problems of his life. Its not that he just is a lazy boy who doesn’t like to do anything and sits all day and puts his feet up. I think this book is written as a journal. So when he writes this it is untended for anyone to say but everything in it makes sense to him Due to the fact he is that narrator we do not know what goes on in his head. He sits there and writes everything he feels in that moment. In his head write now that made perfect sense. Maybe it is because I think like olden but I know exactly what he means. I think it when you do not want to do something you do not want to do. Some people just are no in the “mood” to do there homework but that’s excusable to them but when Holden does that he is a lazy good for nothing teenage boy that will never succeed. I think shows why Holden does not want to succeed. If I was Holden I would not want to either. I know him not succeeding is letting everyone who doubted him win but everyone buts him down I too would never be in the “mood” to do anything. Would you?
I strongly agree. I think this book was written sort of like Holden's journal. I do not think that Holden is a lazy person. I think that he chooses what to do very carefully. He is the type of person who will not do something if it is not important or does not have some sort of affect on him or at least some sort of meaning to him. I also agree that if everyone surrounding me was discouraging, I would not be in the mood to do anything for them if I didn't want to or have to do it.
DeleteI agree with both of you. I think we all have days where we just don't want to do anything at all, and hearing discouraging words doesn't help us want to get things done at all. I also think that in his head, it's okay for him to slack off every now and then, but when he has everyone around him putting him down, he thinks, "why bother, it's not doing anyone, including myself, any good."
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DeleteContrary to your belief of Holden being an admirable character, I must admit, I’m not the biggest fan of him. I highly disagree with you when you say, “…everyone buts him down.” In actuality, I think the opposite is more reasonable to state. What I am trying to say is: many of the characters seem to be willing to help Holden in overcoming his phase of carelessness; however, Holden seems to be putting a blind eye to it. My claim is resonated in chapter two, when Mr. Spencer tells Holden, “‘I’m trying to help you. I’m trying to help you, if I can.’” In my opinion, Old Spencer doesn’t sound like someone who is trying to “but Holden down,” as you put it, but rather, like someone who is genuinely concerned about Holden’s wellbeing.
DeleteAlso, you claimed, “some people just are not in the ‘mood’ to do their homework but that is excusable to them, but when Holden does that he is a lazy good for nothing teenage boy that will never succeed.” I have not experienced the same things that you have, nonetheless, I must admit that I have never encountered a scenario in which not doing your work, meaning not fulfilling your responsibilities, was excusable. Unless it was legitimately drastic situation, that is.
You do bring up very solid points, one of them being that Holden is an unmotivated boy. In addition, yes, he is, as you stated, but down once in a while. But let me ask you—who isn’t? Many people in life are unmotivated. Many are told that they aren’t good enough. Many are not content with the lifestyle in which they are forced into. However, lack of motivation is no excuse to neglect your responsibilities. The strongest of people carry on without the will to do so.
Recalling back to what you said about how Holden being an unmotivated person, I disagree because everything Holden has ever done was not only fighting himself mentally but actually he pretty much knows everything about himself. referring back to what he first said in the first page of the book he said IF YOU REALLY want to hear about it...... its seems like if he told this story before and now that he is telling this story again he just wanted to go straight to the point. I do agree that it seems like Holden is writing in a journal because he once said in the beginning of the book that out of the four subjects he failed he only passed one subject which was English but now that I'm fully understanding writing in a journal is the only possible treatment without talking with anybody. I guess he is telling his life and moments in the way he looks at it simple and to the point.
Delete" She had a terrifically nice smile. She really did. Most people have hardly any smile at all, or a lousy one. " ( pg 55)
ReplyDeleteThis line was the most intriguing thing that I read in all of chapter eight, and that is saying something. After I read this line I asked my dad, " How can an author make something as joyful as smiling make the occurrence of the smile depressing." This was a really confusing line to me as well as touching. Was Holden saying that he never saw people smile.? If he was why didn't he see people smile? Then I thought, maybe he doesn't see many people smile, or at least see genuine smiles because of his brother, Allie's, death. This is obviously an important part of the book because every line that J.D Salinger writes is crucial to the plot, so for Salinger to write three sentences about the fact that Holden was so impressed by a smile must mean a lot to Holden and should mean a lot to the reader and the plot of the book.
I strongly agree with you. I do not think Holden has seen many smiles in his life and for him to be impressed by one is big. I do not think Holden gets smiled at so when this women smiles at him it is like the most magnificent thing in the world. When I think about it Holden has a hard life and he doe not know how to look for the positive so when there is something positive as a shield he makes it negative. He does not understand how to make it happy or better.
Delete"The only reason I didn't do it was because I wasn't in the mood. If you're not in the mood, you can't do that stuff right." (63)
ReplyDeleteIn this specific part of the book, Holden is deciphering whether he should call Jane so late at night. Worrying that he might get caught in a conversation with Jane's mother. After a long time with Holden vs. Holden conversation. He decides that he no longer wants to call. All thought these first eight chapters, Holden never seems to be "in the mood". He's not in the mood to talk to Old Spencer, nor when Jane is downstairs to visit her, nor to even explain his childhood. However, he's in the mood to lie, do other people's homework and run away from the most significant things like not letting people know exactly how he really feels. I can tell already that this book is self v. self. Holden I believe is in conflict with himself. He says one thing and at times does another. Just like all human beings do. Also, Holden commonly uses this excuse for not speaking with Jane. It makes the reader wonder what he really thinks of Jane. He keeps talking and thinking about her ever since Stradeler brought her up. He keeps talking about her but doesn't really want to talk to her. Holden is a person who wants a friendship, companionship, or a
relationship but never wants to strive for it. It questions the reader what Holden really wants. -Nyla McKenzie - Isaac
"Once I get started, I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No Kidding. Hours." (page 76 in my book)
ReplyDeleteIn this line Holden refers to himself as a storyteller. I find that to be interesting and almost contradictory in a sense, because earlier he describes himself as "illiterate", or someone who doesn't perceive literature in the same way as others. But then he says that he could "go on for hours" with the lies, and it leads me to believe that he isn't exactly illiterate, so much as he would rather be behind the pen than on the paper. I think that he's a natural born writer with an eye for literature that differs from everyone else, and it allows him to be able to make up hours of stories of his own inside his head. Lying can be a way of telling stories, and when he says that he's a good liar, it clicks with this line. In order to be a good liar, you have to be able to make up material from your head within seconds, and maybe he likes to lie because it means that he can use his ability of storytelling at the same time.
I agree that Holden is somewhat of a storyteller because going back to the very beginning of the book he starts the book, "If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what a my lousy childhood was like...all that David Copperfield kind of crap, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth." This always makes me feel like I'm with Holden, one-on-one, sitting in Barnes and Nobles or Starbucks telling me this one significant part of his life.
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ReplyDelete“‘I got hit with a snowball,” I said. “One of those very icy ones.” I probably would have told her what really happened but it would've taken too long. I liked her, though. I was beginning to feel sort of sorry I’d told her my name was Rudolf Schmidt.” (page 56)
ReplyDeleteThis line confuses me. I do not understand why Holden “would have told her” his story when he never even admits his feeling to the reader. He says, “The things is, I really like old Murrow’s mother.” What about this women made Holden feel convertible? Why was he willing to tell her the story? He judges Mrs. Murrow’s and states, “not corny, she was just nice and all.” Maybe Holden felt like the Mrs. Murrow’s was being sincere and truthful to him, so he should act the same way to her. Mrs. Murrow’s also pays her full attention to Holden. Instead of hearing negative things and being ridiculed by adults, Mrs. Murrow’s actually likes Holden. When Holden finally finds someone who he might be willing to talk to, he ruins it by lying. Sometimes in my life when I meet people and come to trust them, I wish that I had made a better first impression. In this moment Holden is regretful that he lied. I think that this might teach him a lesson about lying. On the contrary, Holden even says, “I had to read this timetable...just to stop lying.” If he can not control himself, how can we be sure that he is not lying to the reader? Could Holden have been making an excuse (to the reader) for why he was not telling Murrow’s mother the truth? I can learn from Holden’s mistakes. Without directly telling the reader, Holden is sending a strong message that lying will not get you anywhere.
"You take a guy like Morrow that's always snapping his towel at people's asses- really trying to hurt somebody with it- they don't just stay a rat while they're a kid. They stay a rat their whole life. But I bet, after all the crap I shot, Mrs. Morrow'll keep thinking of him now as this shy, modest guy..." pg.57
ReplyDeleteThis quote is significant because Holden tells Mrs. Morrow what she wants to hear to make her feel better. Even though Holden does not like Morrow, his compulsive lying was used as a tool, subconsciously to display a false story. This may have been another case of "shooting the bullet", when he was talking to Mr. Spencer and saying what he wanted to hear. But Holden probably did this because he liked Morrow's mother and he didn't want her to worry about her son. Holden seems as though he doesn't like to worry much himself; he doesn't come across as a person who get's burdened. Basically Holden kindly gave Mrs. Morrow the benefit of the doubt from his implication that Morrow is ignorant and will stay ignorant for the rest of his life. Therefore, since Holden probably doesn't like the feeling of worry, he'll take his opportunity to not let others feel worried either. Despite Holden's lack of expressing his feelings up front, he somewhat shares some kind of compassion when it comes to the people he cares about.
"I didn't want to look like a screwball or something. Which is really ironic. I didn't know then that the goddam hotel was full of perverts and morons. Screwballs all over the place." (Pg.61) This quote is crucial in many ways because the red hunting cap was Holden's essential trademark to his introvertness and his willingness to reject people. He is quiet and withdrawn from the world, but wearing the hat was his way to tell that I'm cool and it's not just a hat. Like many teenagers we are very insecure about our appearances/judgements of other people. Since he is very odd and awkward about his physical appearances maybe he wanted to change it to make himself feel more confident. "Which is really ironic. I didn't know then that goddam hotel was full of perverts and morons." In my opinion, it was Holden's perspective about people in society to see them as perverts and morons. This relates back to the quote "You be surprised what was going on the other side of the hotel." Since the pages (62-63) are talking about Sex and how people getting drunk while being engaged by "squirting water from people's mouths" and saying that how this type of junk is fascinating to people. Finally, "Screwballs all over the place." I think he is talking about the perverts and morons that are hotel by explaining that squirting water from people's mouths "They were in the hysterics the whole time, like it was the funniest thing that ever happened. I'm not kidding, the hotel was lousy with perverts. I was probably the only normal bastard in the whole place- and that isn't saying much."
ReplyDelete"Then I started reading this timetable I had in my pocket. Just to stop lying. Once I get started I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours." (pg. 58)
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed this line from the book. It says a lot about Holden’s personality. Here, Holden says how he knows his lying is a very bad habit of his but he can’t stop himself from doing it. The lies Holden tells are not to get him out of trouble or used as excuses, but just for the heck of it. When Ernest’s mother asks Holden why he is going home and questions whether there’s an illness in the family or not, Holden replied with the truth, no. But instead of just stopping there, Holden went along and explained how he was going to have a surgery. Instead of stopping there, Holden went over the top and explained how he had a brain tumor. It’s possible that Holden lies a lot to get people interested in what he’s saying. But then again, Earlier, Holden explained how he liked Stradlater so much because he didn’t ask questions and how he always replied with a simple, “okay.”
I agree because Holden piles his lies up. He never knows when to stop lying. I can notice that he tries to make the conversation going even if its not the truth. For example, like you said Holden doesn't like to reply with a simple, "okay" like Stradlater. Lying seems like a habit he has but he knows when to stop but doesn't
Delete"Mothers aren't too sharp about that stuff" (Pg.57)
ReplyDeleteThis quote from the book made me realize how he acts around his mom. Does he have a good relationship with his mother? By the looks of it I'm guessing he doesn't. Or maybe hes referring this sentence about what he sees other peoples mother or maybe his own. His words are sometimes a mystery. Its like he has a whole meaning behind it. As he said in the beginning of the book he doesn't want to go into his whole history but he wants the reader to know how he's feeling without telling us and with using little clues such as "Mothers aren't too sharp about that stuff". For example, Holden lies about his name to Ernest Morrow's mother. This quote makes me wonder if he always lies to his own mother. He talks as if mothers are old and their brains aren't functioning enough to really hear and understand what your saying or to really concentrate on weather your lying or not. I've noticed that throughout the passage he piles lies after lies and sometimes doesn't even notice it. I have an opposite reaction towards this because in my experience my mother would listen to every single word I say.
He hasn't said too much about his own mother, which does say a lot. I agree with you with the fact that he does lie to his parents, and he may not have a good relationship with them; but you can't but wonder why. I don't think his mother knows much about her own son, because of his incapability to bond with a human being.
DeleteI totally agree with you about his words being a mystery. Although he has given us subtle hints to kind of tell us what hes feeling hes never really given us enough information to make a solid conclusion. I really hope as the story goes on he will start to get comfortable and starts to show the reader, us, how he really feels. I also agree about the relationship between him and his parents. It came up in the previous chapter when he was thinking about calling his sister. He really seemed bothered about even talking to his parents when he was obviously in need of a little help. It makes me wonder: what really happened? I know if i was being kicked out of school, the first place I would have went would have been home and got prepared for a HUGE lecture.
DeleteQuote: “I usually buy a ham sandwich and about four magazines. If I’m on a train at night, I can usually even read one of those dumb stories in the magazines without puking. You know. One of those stories with a lot of phony, lean-jawed guys named David in it, and a lot of phony girls named Linda or Marcia that are always lighting all the goddam David’s pipe for them. (Salinger pg. 53)
ReplyDeleteThis line got my attention for multiple reasons. First of all, this quote caught my eye because it reminded me of the previous chapters that I read. For instance, when Holden says that the magazines contain a lot of phony people it reminded me, of the first few chapters in the book which I learned about the things he hates which was movies and phony people. In addition, this quote in a way shocked me since, Holden usually enjoys reading but I now know he hates reading about “phony” people. Furthermore, this quote stood out to me because I can relate this book with a book that I previously read as well. This quote, reminded me of the book, November Blues since the both protagonist have really say a lot of deep thought provoking things that can be interpreted in so many different types of ways. Finally, this line really stood out to me since like I said before it gives a clear image of the type of person Holden is which an opinionated person, since when he feels like there is something that needs to be said he doesn't cower in fear because of what people might think of it but he just puts it out there. Those are some reasons why this line stood out to me.
“The trouble was, that kind of junk is sort of fascinating to watch, even if you don’t want it to be.” Pg 62
ReplyDeleteI absolutely love this quote. This quote really explains Holden as a character. It shows that he often watches people and takes in small details that a ‘normal’ person wouldn’t catch. For example, when he’s talking about the way Jane always keeps her “kings in the back row.” You could tell he was highly amused by the way she kept the kings in the back row. The way he remembers is also pretty fascinating. He also notices small details about Ernest Morrow’s mother like the way he describes the way she smoked. He also describes the way she was being really sincere when they were talking and she became worried. He probably knows the difference because he’s not only watched every detail of Ms. Morrow’s reaction but also other people so he could know the difference between someone faking it or someone being sincere. Then about a 9 lines after the quote he talks about how it “stinks, if you analyze it.” He’s talking about how weird the ‘lousy’ people are being at the hotel although he’s obviously taken the time to analyze and observe the situation. There are many times were people can catch themselves staring and watching people because it’s entertaining although the person doesn’t really know we are watching which makes this quote really relatable. In conclusion, Holden is an observer which can be seen in this quote on page 62.
"I like her, though. I was beginning to feel sort of sorry I'd told her my name was Rudolf Schmidt." (p 56)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out for me the most because I think that this is the first time that Holden felt bad about lying. He felt bad lying to her because she was so nice and pretty with her sweet telephone voice and she wasn't phony like other people. So he felt bad because she didn't deserve to be lied to. I also think that this is the first time he has actually said something nice about another person without pointing out their negatives or flaws. So I thought that was really interesting because in the previous chapters Holden has always said negatives things about other people and so this is the first time Holden has come out and express something good or positive about another person. He also felt guilty in a way because she was just so friendly and caring that he wished he hadn't lied to her in the first place. So what he did was he changed the subject to her son but he said something positive about her son even though he was a phony because he felt sorry that he lied to her. "Oh Ernie." "He's one of the most popular boys at Pencey." This line was really interesting to me because this is like the first time he actually like someone and didn't think they were a phony but just genuinely a nice person.
"Hey listen, you know those ducks that lagoon near Central Park South? That little lake? by any chance, do you happen to know where they go, the ducks when it gets all frozen over? Do you happen to know, by any chance?" Pg.60
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me for a plethora of reasons. For one, I wrote about this quote in a previous homework assignment, and I stated how descriptive and observant Holden is. The fact that he revisited the ducks in the pond, says a lot. A question that I ask a lot is why does he care about mediocre things like ducks in a pond. But in fact it says a lot about who he is. His capability to revisit thoughts that may or may not have significant meaning says that his observation to little details is fascinating. But why ducks in a pond is my question.....And why does it mean so much for him to know where the go? In my own opinion I believe Holden relates to the ducks. Always moving, staying in one place if he's comfortable. Maybe that is why he refers to it again, because he can relate to it.
Wow!!!! I actually love this! I completely understand what you mean when you say that the ducks show a lot of who Holden is because of the fact that he rememebered such small details. But, in a way I don't think that he actually means anything big about the ducks and that it's a HUGE part of the book, but also we must remember, this is home to Holden and maybe, just maybe, this could have been the spot that Holden came to think when things got too hard, or when he got kicked out of his schools.
Delete"I felt like giving somebody a buzz. I left my bags right outside the booth so that I could watch them, but as soon as I was inside, I couldn't think of anybody to call up."
ReplyDeletePerhaps it was just me, but this quote caused me to think a bit about Holden. I rememebered back to when Holden had just fought with Stradlater, and he was actually feeling a bit lonely and I looked at the quote and I thought about something. What if this is what Holden meant when he said he was lonely? In this quote, Holden is saying that he does not really have anyone to call up and I wondered if maybe Holden feels like he doesn't really have anyone to speak to when he needs to. For example, in the book he refered to his sister being in college and the fact that he can't really speak to his parents because it is not really much of an option. I think that the fact that everyone else is doing their own thing or taking care of their own buisness is somewhat affecting Holden because he is not doing really well in school or taking care of his future and it may make him feel a bit lonely because he feels a bit behind everyone else and maybe even a bit lost. But, then again, I have a tendency to overthink things...
pg 59
Delete"'Rudolf Schmidt,' I told her. I didn't feel like giving her my whole life history."
ReplyDelete- p.55
This quote stood out to me because this is basically the same thing he says in the beginning of the book. This shows the reader how he's just not comfortable with people knowing his past. I find it weird how he says his name is Rudolf and then goes on to saying he doesn't want to tell his whole life story, like a name could actually tell a life story. He could've just told her his real name and thats all. heh keeps saying "i don't want to tell my whole life story" when he could just do what he's been doing throughout the story which is leave a big part of his life and just change the subject. He could've told Mrs. Marrow that he was just going home because he was kicked out of Pencey or just say he wasn't going to to Pencey anymore and make up a lie, which he seems really good at. I'm starting to wonder what really happened during his childhood that makes him want to sort of skip the whole topic. He only seemed to open up a little when he was writing the composition for Stradlater about his brother's baseball mitt.
i somewhat agree with you because he always tries to go off topic and change the subject when the conversation is about his past or his life right now. i disagree with what you said about he could've just told mrs.Marrow he was kicked out of pencey, i think he didn't tell her his real name and about being kicked out because he doesn't like to be open to others and he then again likes to lie. he also didn't do it because he liked her as a person like when he said her smile was not a lousy.
DeleteI agree with you that Holden doesn’t seem to open up with people. Maybe that’s why he’s so lonely? I mean he couldn’t even tell the woman his real name! Holden probably chooses not to open up to people because he may have had a rough childhood. Maybe he doesn’t want to go into his past. Perhaps the only way for him to open up is through writing. It would make sense because he wrote that meaningful composition on his brother Allie and english is the only subject he didn’t fail. There are many possible explanations for what happened in his childhood past and what would make him want to skip it. I think we should pay attention to encounters like the one with the woman and Mr. Spencer to find out more about why Holden doesn’t like talking about his life.
Delete" The first thing I did when I got off at Penn station, I went into this phone booth..... so I ended up not calling anybody."
ReplyDeleteIn my perspective I think that this is a very interesting and significant t quote that not only shows Holden's personality but also the existence of how he feels every time he is trying to get help from someone but he doesn't know whether it is the right thing or wrong thing to do. His indecisive mentality in understanding if he is trying to either protect him self and actually put this wall between the people who is surrounding them. I think that Holden is trying to find excuses in order not to talk, even if he is in the middle of the way and there are doors all around him he would just make these mystical and ridiculous excuses to not seem that people need to fell sorry for him. For example he was thinking about calling Jane Gallagher's house but then he started to think to himself that her vacation just started and he resented of even calling her, supposedly it was too late. It almost feels like he is trying to make himself feel tuff and strong in leaving Pency but actually mentally he is a ticking bomb that its trying to explode but hindering its own flame. I also think that he doesn't want to explain to any other person his abandoned of Pency, he doesn't want to make this leaving more difficult or depressing than it seemed. Holden didn't know where he is heading, what stop would he drop off or where he sleeps. he wants to seek some friendship with the people who he knows but he doesn't want to open to them and state his feelings like if he is a sentimental person but Holden doesn't seem like a person who would just want to call somebody to tell them that he was alright I guess he is understanding that he is becoming lonely.
"would you care to stop on the way and join me for a cocktail"? pg.60
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it gave the reader an understanding that Holden is really lonesome and wants company. additionally, he also said something similar to Morrow's mother which showed the reader that he kinda wants someone to be there with him in his phase like he said in the beginning of the book which he believes that everyone has a phase and he's living through it by consuming all his emotions which he may not show it but i feel somewhat that by asking the mother and the taxi driver to join him for a cocktail, it symbolizes how he feels and the need of people around him to help him get his life together but yet tries to show the reader he doesn't by fronting at which in some parts the reader can tell what he's really trying to say and how he talks in the book. which to me is very significant in this point of the book.
“The bellboy that showed me to the room was this old guy around sixty-five. He was even more depressing than the room was. He was one of those bald guys that comb all their hair over from the side to cover up their baldness. I’d rather be bald than do that.” (61)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is important to me because Holden always goes back to this idea of age and how it scares him. I think that age and Holden’s future will be a theme that the author will continue to go back to throughout the story. I think this because this isn’t the first time that Holden is freaked out when he sees someone old. For example, in the first chapter, Holden refers to Mr. Spencer’s age as “awful” (7) and called the fact that the bellboy was aging “terrible.” (61) I think that the author does this to show us that Holden hates thinking about his future. He hates to think that someday, he’ll end up looking like Mr. Spencer or that bellboy. One way that Holden doesn’t thinking about his future is when he talks about getting kicked out of Pencey. He wasn’t really that sad and didn’t really care much at all. Holden mentioned that it depressed him to think about the future. (14) I think this is slightly odd, you have to think about the future sometimes, right? But not with Holden. He likes to live in the present.
i agree because i think holden is scared of what he would have done by that time and if he would have done anything at all. i also think he is worried about what he will look like because even though he doesnt seem like it he thinks about it a little because of the red hat situation.
Delete"The only reason I didn't do it was because I wasn't in the mood. If you're not in the mood, you can't do that stuff right" (pg. 63)
ReplyDeleteThis quote reminded me that Holden is a teenager, instead of Holden's usual deep outsider view on things this quote made me see his teenage boy side, feeling nervous, exited, and at the same time making excuses for not calling her is what a typical teen would do at that age. Instead of talking about how his teachers creep him out or hearing about how he feels about his brother, which have a very mature and deep perspective, but instead in this quote Holden seems like a regular guy who is making up a fake excuse to himself because he is interested in this girl, not because he has a fear of age or doesn't want to put in effort in school work. I think this quote shows a new side of Holden that he tries to hide because he doesn't want to seem vulnerable and like others in society.
i went into this phone booth... i couldn't think of anybody to call(59)
ReplyDeleteThis stands out to me because after the whole train ride and all the time of doing absolutely nothing he didn't think once of who to call or where to stay or anything like that. This really gets me thinking about what he was actually thinking about besides the pretty lady next to him. Maybe it was about he was going turn his life around or how he was going to tell his parents. This also got me thinking about what school he is going to go to and will he fail again or actually try and succeed and become something of himself.
"Yes, I do. he's in my class.
ReplyDeleteHer son was doubtless the biggest bastard that ever went to Pencey, in the whole crumbly history of the school. He was always going down the corridor, after he'd had a shower, snapping his soggy old wet towel at people's asses. That's exactly the kind of guy he was." (page:54)
I think that this quote shows the kind of person holden really is. Out loud, he speaks in short sentences but when he actually rethinks it to himself, he realizes theres much more and not always in a positive way. Holden is a pretty negative person in my eyes from what I've read so far… I've noticed the only significance of happiness he has in his life is when he's thinking or talking about his brother Allie.
In his mind, what he does with people is take a specific moment from a situation he's had with the person and he builds off that, whether its good or bad. sometimes he builds it positively like when thinking about Jane and Allie, or negatively when thinking about everyone else.
"...you never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole life. She is really smart. I mean she's had all A's ever since she started school. As a matter of fact , I'm the only dumb one in my family."(Pg88 -my book has different pages so it is not the same in all the books)
ReplyDeleteThis part was most memorable to me because you start to see how much he loves and cares for his sister, during this quote you could hear the proudness in his voice and the pure love that was also shown when he was talking about Jane. I feel that he is really proud of the fact that she is nothing like him . I also think that Holden is jealous his sister because she is so smart and pretty , he shows this he says " I'm the only dumb one in my family" and when he says " she is skinny like me but , pretty skinny" . I think he feels he is the one mistake of the family but he won't do anything about it because his sister is really smart ,his brother is really successful , and his other brother would have been but , he isn't doing anything to become like them in the sense that they are well liked and smart . - Nayah Ferris