Choose a line from the text and explain why
it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem
important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a
connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about
Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in
general?Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
"That's just the trouble with all you morons. You never want to discuss anything. That's the way you can always tell a moron. They never want to discuss anything intellig-" (44) This quotation is very significant because people say things, since they're are so inconsiderate, arrogant and self-centered, that they won't to comprehend is being said, which is meaningful. What it says about Holden is that he understands what a moron is based on how he acts towards what is being said." I told him he didn't care if a girl kept all her kings in the back row or not, and the reason he didn't care because he was a stupid goddam moron." (44) Holden had said this to Stradlater since he liked the same girl Holden liked, which was Jean. Stradlater didn't care to know her personally, he just wanted to date her. The world needs to know that you shouldn't be a moron if you only act intelligent and that you actually take the time to understand what is being said.
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me. I seemed that Holden was saying: morons never want to discuss anything because they are scared of what might happen. Instead of learning and understanding new things, they stick to what they know. I think that Holden is right to call Stradlater a moron. When Stradlater hurts Holden, he is scared to see what he has done. Holden says, "Boy, he did look worried." (45) Stradlater is the type of person who does not think before they do. This is another characteristic of a moron.
DeleteThough Stradlater does have moron characteristics, this adjective does not seem to fit perfectly with his personality. A moron is someone who is stupid. He is not entirely stupid. I think that Stradlater is more selfish and uncaring than a moron.
When I read this quote, I did stop to think about what Holden meant when he said this. I agree with what Suzanna says. When Holden called Stradlater a moron, it fit with how much we know about Stradlater. The fight that broke out between the two of them started about Jane. I'm not sure if anyone else noticed, but Holden really cares about Jane and obviously has some feelings toward her, and when Stradlater wouldn't tell Holden what they did together that night it had a powerful impact over Holden. Stradlater knew that Holden and Jane are friends and he chose not to tell Holden what they did together. If you read the pages then you know that Stradlater and Jane sat in the car during their date, but if they didn't do anything then why is it a problem to tell Holden what they did? So I agree with Holden when he says that Stradlater is a moron. He started the fight that started between them, and as Suzanna said "Stradlater is the type who doesn't think before they do." He punches Holden, hurts him and gets worried later about what he's done.
DeleteI strongly agree with both you and Suzanna that posted that a moron is someone who doesn't think before he says/act, but he is also selfish and uncaring. Holden is right to say that he is moron. Also, I never really mentioned the exact details that happened on Jane and Stradlater's date, so thanks for bringing it up.
DeleteI disagree with Suzannas comment because I think that Stradlater fit Holden’s definition of a moron. He took personal offense to the way Stradlater was acting because he wanted Jane to also think that Stradlater was a moron. That’s why he kept on bringing up that Stradlater hadn’t asked Jane about checkers. He wanted to show Jane that he wasn’t a moron, that he was someone who would sit down and talk. He really wanted to be the one that Jane chose, even though he didn’t have the courage to go and say hi to her. Holden wanted to know that she thought that he wasn’t a moron. He based his definition of a moron so that it would fit Stradlater’s actions completely. He also became very protective of Jane because he doubted himself. He doubted that through his past with her, she would realize that he wasn’t a moron. He knew about how Stradlater would act because of his prior experience with him and he was scared not only for Jane but that she was going to choose Stradlater
Delete“you didn’t know Allie. My hand still hurts me once in a while, when it rains and all, and I can’t make a real fist anymore- not a tight one, I mean- but outside of that I don’t care much.” (39)
ReplyDeleteAllie’s death seems to have affected Holden more than he is admitting. I like this quote because it can be interpreted literally or metaphorically. Literally, it means that Holden hurt his hand for good by punching too many windows. Metaphorically Holden’s hand was his heart; he was never the same after his brother died. Did Holden fail out of school before Allie died? Could Allie have been a motivation for Holden? Could Allie and Holden have been closer than Holden tells us? After all Holden, “is the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life.” (16) Holden let his grip on life loosened once Allie died. Maybe Holden is so obsessed with age and scared of death because his brother died at such a young age. When Holden reveals this small part of his past, even without acknowledging his true feelings, you see there is more to Holden than just being a failing and uninterested student.
I strongly agree but I think that Holden isn't necessarily obsessed with death and age but that he doesn't like to think about the fact that his brother, Allie, died at such a young age. I also agree that he isn't putting an 100% effort into his schoolwork, maybe it's the fact that his brother died so young. Or the fact that he never needed to apply himself because his brother always got the spotlight.
DeleteI've used the same quote as you did and I didn't make the same response. I've never thought about his hand being like his heart but you made a really good point. His brother dying also explains the way he doesn't like old people. I thought the reason why he doesn't like old people would be because they always expect so much from him and he prefers kids because they are just like him.
DeleteYour perspective on the quote is quite interesting and I agree with the metaphorical and literal sides that the quote represents. I too believe that Holden is afraid of death, because he knows that it can come at any time and after one died that's it, life is just over. Because Holden's brother died so soon, Holden is traumatized, and that could very well be the reason why his behavior and actions can be so closed off. In addition to that, the reason Holden doesn't try hard in school or really care about his life too much could also be because he thinks that life is so delicate and so pointless, that he just doesn't want to put in the effort.
Delete"I even tried to break all the windows on the station wagon... very stupid thing to do... didn't even know I was doing it..."(39).
ReplyDeleteThe death of Allie really affected Holden though he didn't really show it. Also what he did in the garage was something that you can relate to the outside world because for instance he was angry that his brother, who was such a nice person, died and all he saw was "red". This means that he was filled up with adrenaline to actually realize what he was doing, he wasn't in control of his actions. In the real world a lot of people sometimes sees "red" and don't realize their actions until they are done or they are stopped by someone.
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DeleteI agree with your statement of seeing "red" when adrenaline kicks in. Many teenagers and people in general who get filled up with so much emotion: anger, depression, etc. is caught up in their own heads. This results in impulsive actions that we look back on and think "What the heck did I just do?!" Another example of Holden caught up in his own head is when, Stradlater gets back from his date with Jane. Holden is only focused on if Jane still keeps her kings in the back row but then he starts questioning Stradlater what he did on his date. Stardlater says its none of Holden's business but then gets annoyed and pins Holden down. This is when Holden impulsively calls Stradlater a moron and then eventually gets nocked out due to being caught up in his on world and not thinking straight.pg.42-44. This shows Holden doesn't remember much, but he does remember the intention of only wanting to know Jane's little habit.
DeleteI just wanted to continue this discussion because i wasn't able to share my thoughts in class.
ReplyDelete"It was a very good book. I'm quite illiterate, but I read a lot." (pg. 18, paragraph 2)
Many believe Holden is talking in a literal sense, meaning "illiterate" as in can't read. I believe he was using the word metaphorically, meaning he doesn't understand the book. Illiterate means "having little or no education", "having or showing a lack of knowledge about a particular subject", and the most commonly associated definition: "not knowing how to read or write". Maybe by "illiterate" Holden means he lacks knowledge or doesn't completely understand the text. As described in the book, Holden takes literature very seriously, and likes how deep and meaningful writing can be. What he's trying to say by calling himself "illiterate", is that he doesn't know or isn't educated in what the authors meaning is, or exactly what the author is communicating, which shows that he does not believe that he is smart enough and has a low self-esteem. In reality he is very smart in his own perspective and has very good common sense, for example in the way he interacts with his teacher.
I agree that, " It was a very good book. I'm quite illiterate, but I read a lot." ( pg.18). I was not said in a literal sense as in, Holden is illiterate. I however disagree with what you said about Holden not understanding the book. If Holden did not understand the book then he would not know if he thought the book was good or not. In order for one to have an opinion on a book or on a text they need to have some sort of understanding or at least be able to comprehend the book. I think what Holden meant was that his teachers thought he was illiterate because he was flunking out of classes and he did not apply his knowledge of the book to anything related to the book when he was in school. I think that this is what Holden meant by saying that he was illiterate. He meant that his teachers thought he was illiterate.
DeleteI agree with you completely. I feel that Holden has a different outlook on life than others do, and when he describes himself as "illiterate" he means that either he doesn't fully understand things when he reads, or he interprets them differently. Maybe he is "illiterate" in the sense that his ideas of what he reads stray from those of what the author originally intended, and it leaves him feeling stranded. I also think he understands more that he will admit to, which leaves him to downgrade himself and think less of himself than he really is.
Delete“I felt so lonesome, all of a sudden. I almost wished I was dead.”
ReplyDeleteThe moment I believe that define us most as a person is when were just about to sleep. When you lay down with your thoughts, ideas, and dreams and in that moment your thinking about your accomplishments and mistakes. Your blessings and curses. Your good and your bad. Your strength and your faults. The most extreme to the simplest thought. The room is so silent with only the snores of Ackley, but Holden’s mind is running loud. I feel like he never likes admitting to himself his true feelings so when he is alone with his thoughts he thinks about himself as a person and he is unhappy with himself. His false thoughts are his company. When he lays down he starts thinking about the true ones and notices the type of person he is. He puts up a wall and puts distance between him and the world. He isolates himself and becomes critical and disrespectful. Holden behaves this way to protect his feelings. In this part of the book, he is laying in Ackley’s roommate's bed and starts to talk to Ackley. Ackley is very tired, so he seems to ignore him. He then says “"I didn't want to hang around in that stupid atmosphere any more." Holden, being the guy that he is, the guy that can't commit to a friendship much less a school, a guy that can't admit to his real feelings, the guy that can't do anything right but English, a guy that rather tell you he's okay when he's crying inside says he can't stand to stay in this atmosphere anymore. While reading the first few chapters in Catcher in the Rye, I feel like he never likes admitting to himself his true feelings. Once again, when Holden desires attention, comfort, and actual friendship, he runs away from the problem at hand. His isolation is his way of being an introverted person which seems to portray itself as rude and disrespectful to the reader. Even though we seem to love him despite his boorishness.
I never really thought about Holden's personalty is impacted by him being categorized as an introvert. Introverts are described as people who are quiet and want to be isolated. Since Holden keeps his feelings hidden, then we as readers never get to find out who he truly is. This characteristic reveals the reason why he is so intrigued to read books (18) compared to watching movies (2) or why he is especially rude and disrespectful to reader (1) and why a friendship is harder to commit than a school. Therefore, I strongly agree that he is an introvert, and that's why we never get to find out who he is because he is withdrawn from the rest of the world.
DeleteI agree with you when you said that Holden likes to isolate himself because he is scare of being hurt again. I think Allie's death is the whole reason why he isolates himself from the rest of the world because he has dealt with disappointment and lost before. He not only lies to the other people but to himself as well because he wants to protect his feelings and lying is his only way to get out when he is facing a problem he never stays and try to fix it himself .He doesn't like to admit his feelings to himself or to the world because he knows that his behavior is bad and disrespectful. it has sort of become a habit of Holden's. If Holden keeps hiding his feelings and lying it is hard for us as the reader to see if he is telling us the truth and it's also hard for us as the reader to see who he is as a person.
DeleteThe intention and arguments that has been said in this moment and quote of him felling lonely and just die it something that even Holden cannot understand not even with his own self but showing the feelings that he has hurt himself physically and mentally. According to page 50 he repeats this phrase but actually says the opposite," you couldn't even here any cars no more.. I got feeling so lonesome and rotten" I personally think that he isn't isolating himself from everybody but actually he is just looking in the perspective in which he has always been in and just feeling that the pain in which he has suffer not only made him do damaged in the inside and outside but actually he is trying to notice if he is really comprehending the situation and the reason why he is acting in the specific way.
Delete"He sounded pretty nervous. He probably was scared he'd fractured my skull or something when I hit the floor. It's too bad I didn't." (pg.45)
ReplyDeleteIf you read the comment that Kiran posted and the replies that Suzanna and I posted then you know how I feel about Stradlater punching Holden. What interested me with this quote in particular was how Holden says that it's too bad he didn't have a major injury. We don't really know Holden all the way but we know his personality and some important things about his life and his brother, but why would Holden wish he was hurt bad enough to die? Maybe I'm just over thinking this quote but I really did feel that Holden was sort of giving up when he was thinking this. His life is pretty screwed up and he is an outsider, but I just felt that this showed how Holden really is in pain. This character is really good at hiding the way he feels, even with us considering we are on his side. Even though the fight that happened between Holden and Stradlater wasn't a big thing, but after he punched Holden in the face and Holden was just lying on floor until Stradlater left room, to me it sort of symbolized him giving up with everything that he's been through and what is yet to come. Did anybody else experience something similar or different?
“ I mean I’m not going to be a goddam surgeon or violinist or anything anyway.” (p.39)
ReplyDeleteThis quote for me symbolizes the root of Holden’s behavior towards life. The reason that he doesn’t apply himself to school or anything for that matter. Why he is flunking out of school and yet doesn’t care. Already Holden has given up on life. All of this because in his opinion he won’t ever become anything and therefore is left without anything to strive for. And if one is set upon the idea that they will never become “anything anyway”, then why try at all if you feel, or in Holden’s case, know that you will never succeed. The actual basis of Holden’s idea of imminent failure I have yet to learn or understand, but based off of previous blog posts and pages 38-39, I feel that it may be caused by Holden’s younger brother, Allie’s, death.
I do agree with you with the fact that he has set himself up for the I won't become "anything anyway" mindset. However, I do not agree that Allie's death is the cause for all of this. I, yes, do believe its the root for why he started acting like this in the first place. He started to act up after Allie's death. But I refuse to believe that the reason he is dropping out of school, acting isolated, and being unconscious of other people's feeling is because of the death of his brother which happened years ago. He also doesn't seem to get very sentimental or emotional when he's thinking about Allie but he does when he leaves Pencey. So I decline the fact that this starts because of Allie.
DeleteI also agree with both Nyla and Beatrice and the fact that someone passing away in you life especially some one who is really important to you making you want to give up on life.The one thing i do kinda disagree with is the point that Nyla made about hoe Allie's death has nothing to do with Holden and his school life because death is something you can't escape and so the thought of death always fallows you around ,especially when someone in your close family passes away .
Delete"I didn't turn it off right away, though. I just kept laying there on Ely's bed, thinking about Jane and all. It just drove me stark staring mad when I thought about her and Strandlater parked somewhere in that fat-assed Ed Bankey's car." - Pg. 48
ReplyDeleteDuring Cahpter 5-6, Holden is thinking a lot about Jane, even a little bit too much. He wants to make sure that Jane is in the capable hands or with him. He is worried that Stradlater would do something that would make Jane feel uncomfortable. Mainly because he is jelous becuase of Stradlater dating her. During one scene of the book, he thinks that Stradlater try to have sex with her, and this made him mad. But, does he later on forget her, does he try to stay that thought away from him? Love is hard in life for Holden, even in real life too.
Reading chapters five, six, seven, and those leading up to the fight between Holden and Stradlater, I interpreted Holden’s thoughts and comments about Jane as what would be defined in current terms as a “crush”. His sympathetic, inquisitive questions, and detailed descriptions of Jane, “ When she’d get a king, she wouldn’t move it.” allowed me to come to that conclusion. Therefore, Holden’s troubled thoughts about about Jane and Stradlater and antipathy towards Stradlater after his “night out” with Jane are not caused by Holden’s worries for Jane, but of his jealousy of Straddler and his ability to “give the time” to anyone he wants, including Jane, something that Holden can not do.
DeleteI agree with Beatrice. I feel like Holden reacted out of anger was because,he has a crush on Jane and to see Stradlater not only go on a date with her but not really tell him what happened got Holden upset. Therefore, Holden thought he was trying to "give the time" to Jane.
Delete"I went over and took a look at my stupid face... you never saw such gore in your life... I had blood all over my mouth, even on my pajamas.... it partly scared me and it partly fascinated me... I'm not too tough, I'm a pacifist if you want to know the truth." - Pg.46
ReplyDeletewhen you begin to notice that your dreams and your bravery has no thought or action in describing what you are actually fighting for. You can see the reflection in the mirror, you ask your self if it was the right to be at the particular moment and just look at your self. The damages you see on the outside doesn't hurt -- the internal wounds that are left inside your body thinking that your so mindful and ready to face and endure danger surrounding you but actually you have no audacity to actually throw yourself its what really opens your eyes in how much you can handle. Holden cannot imagine what more he can see of his face or even his body, Stradlater insists of Holden washing his face but can't he just regret what he done to Holden or just watch the suffering and pain that he has done or how Holden can react to something so horrible and intolerant. personally I feel like Holden is trying to ask himself if just looking himself in the mirror will find himself and who he is his mind is in chains but he has the key in the hands. I feel like he is trying to hard to climb the ladder and every time he reaches he falls and stays there. he has this insecurity in his mind, he can be petrified with this gore and tell himself that its fascinating or even life-changing. In the contrary he can just be paralyzed in his image and just be shocked of what he looks like what he did this for and was it a good reason. in this moment it was after Stradlater was on top of Holden and Holden being the insecure and annoying person he insists on saying moron and denying to stay shut about what Stradlater did with Jane affects his intentions. he can be somebody so different and still be arrogant and insecure with his own self. In general people believe that toughness is earned and developed from the experience of fighting but actually its just another excuse in knowing if you suffer the pain that no man can hold to resist your bravery will be rewarded but for Holden its another moment of confusion and insecurities.
"I broke all the windows in the garage just for the hell of it. I don't blame them. I really don't. I slept in the garage the night he died and I broke the goddamn windows with my fist, just for the hell of it." (p39)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me the most because Allie's death has impacted Holden in many different ways. The fact that Holden broke all the windows in the garage and how he had to be psychoanalyzed says a lot about how Holden deals with his problems. In my opinion Allie's death has effected him because maybe Holden didn't act so rude and disrespectful to other people before Allie's death. I think his brother's death has shape who Holden is and who he has become. Maybe that is why Holden likes to isolate himself so much because he is scare of being hurt again. After Allie's death he went out of control he couldn't deal with the pain and the lost of his brother so he went wild because he was so little and he didn't know what he was doing at that time he just couldn't grasp the idea that his little brother was gone. So I believe after the incident Holden starts to lie to everyone around him to protect himself from being hurt once again.
This quote also stood out to me. I believe Allie's death plays a part of Holden's personality as of now. How he expresses his anger really forshadows what is yet to come in this book. Is he like this in every conflict? Or will he find a calmer state? This quote sparks up questions about how Holden composes himself, and I agree with you on this aspect of the situation. But, Holden was 13 when this happened. He wasn't that young if you think about it. And going back on the book, Holden says he sometimes acted as if he was 12 or 13. So he is referring to the time when he broke all the windows when his brother died. He wouldve done the same thing if this happened to him now. Or will he? Who knows, that's why we need to just keep reading :) .
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DeleteI agree with you. Honestly, before I’d read your comment, the possibility of Allie's death afflicting Holden's mentality to such a high extent hadn't crossed my mind, not in the slightest. Holden seemed so adamant in stating his hatred towards the rest of the world that I hadn’t even taken the time to wonder why he has doing it. In life, our experiences will shape us. I agree with you completely in that Allie's death drastically influenced Holden’s character.
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ReplyDelete“My hand still hurts me once in a while, when it rains and all, and I can’t make a real fist any more-not a tight one, I mean-but outside of that I don’t care much” Pg 39
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me question how Holden really feels about himself. You could tell he cares a lot about his brother’s death by the way he reacts and breaks the windows in the garage, but then he says he doesn’t care about his hand. Holden does this a lot in the book so far. Like his situation with his parents and how changes the subject really quickly. Holden never really tells you how he feels. He shows you how he feels through the way he expresses his emotions and then blames it on something else. Another example of this is when he knows Stradlater showed Jane “a good time” and he never really tells you how he feels instead he just punches Stradlater. As humans I feel like we do this when you don’t want a person to get to know you. You end up telling the truth but saying it means nothing because you’re afraid how the person will react. Overall, Holden seems to be very secretive about his feelings.
In a way, I agreee with you. Holden is somewhat secretive about his feelings. But, I do feel that Holden sometimes drops a few hints on how he feels about the subject that he is talking about, whether it is by his movements or his thoughts. So, in a way you're right but Holden does express his feelings although he doesn't come right out and say it.
DeleteI don't think so at all. Holden openly says what's up, how he interprets it is the problem. He says whenever he's pissed, or whenever he wants something. How he backs his response makes us think otherwise.
DeleteI completely agree with Nyeighsha with the fact that Holden willing to show us ( the reader) about his feeling towards other people and not his personal feelings towards him self and this is also proof that he doesn't really care about what happens to him in all aspects of his life.
Delete"I mean I'm not going to be a goddamn surgeon or a violinist or anthing anyway." Pg 39
ReplyDeleteI think when the problems and bumpy roads one has had that was managing to take over their lives is all over, it just comes back like a kaleidoscope of memories. One remembers it as if it were yesterday. The pain, the panic, the stress, the shame, the tears. It doesn't simply go away; It stays in one's brain forever. Holden has had to go through the same leaving process for three other schools, a person would think he would be used to it by now, right? Wrong. This quote, in a way, helped me understand Holden's view on his life. Think about it like this: If a person has had three goldfish, and all three died and then that person bought another, wouldn't that person somewhere in their right mind know that the fourth fish was going to die? Holden has been kicked out of three, now four, schools and of course that has affected him. This quote is showing how Holden brings himself down, and thinks very low of himself. He is basically saying that he is not going to be anything in life because of his prior experiences. I feel some sympathy for Holden because he seems like a smart boy, but in a way I could understand how he's thinking. Why would somebody push themselves hard to get something better, if failing is all they've ever known? Maybe Holden had just lost his balance in the first school, but after it became a regular process, Holden may have entered the school, knowing the feeling that came along with it, and maybe he wasn't so convinced that this was losing his balance anymore.
i agree i think holden has basically given up on himself but i also think the he is learning as he goes along even though he doesn't show it and after a while he just gave up but if he really wanted to he could succeed. also the analogy about the goldfish is good but really only relates to holden because most people would do there best keep it alive and learn from there mistakes unless you had really weird fish that died not because of you of you just liked watching things die(serial killer analogy)
Deletethanks! And no i do not enjoy watching things die... But, i understand what you are trying to say about holden being able to succeed if he wanted to, but maybe holden is just one of those people that after trying and failing, they get sick of it and give up and that is somewhat the apperance that he shows in the book in some ways.
Delete"...I told him I wasn't going to chuck it at anybody, but he wouldn't believe me. People never believe you. ( pg 37) This really stood out to me because of the irony for what Holden said. Previously in the book Holden said he was such a good liar. This confused me because he wants people to believe him but then he lies. He knows he is a liar, so why would he think that he should have to right to be believed. He thinks he should have privileges that he does not earn or deserve. This line shows that Holden is not aware, or chooses to ignore values that one should have like being honest and earning others trust. He also cannot say that he is a liar and then wonder why nobody believes him. Furthermore, Holden said that people don't believe " you", I questioned who he was directing his statement towards.
ReplyDelete"I wasn't going to chuck it at anybody, but he wouldn't believe me. People never believe you." (pg 48 in my book)
ReplyDeleteI think one of the hardest things for people everywhere to agree on is trust. When Holden is making a snowball and looking around for somewhere to throw it, he doesn't mean any wrong. He notices that everything in the world has turned white from the snow and he doesn't want to disturb the blissfulness of things. Instead, he holds onto the snowball and takes it onto the bus with him. He doesn't plan on throwing it at anyone; he just wants to hold it and have something in his hands that he isn't going to hurt anyone with, but the bus driver doesn't believe him. When he explains that he doesn't mean harm, it shows how people always looks for something to go wrong. Yes, there was a chance that maybe Holden would have thrown it at someone or something and caused serious damage, but there's also a part of him that wouldn't have, and would have instead just held it and watched it melt. Lots of people always look for the bad in others, and would rather play it safe than believe someone when they say they mean well. These people are afraid of what might happen if things were to go right, and don't want to spend their time waiting around for something that might end up going wrong in the end. It can be tricky when someone honestly does mean well, and they aren't trusted enough to take responsibility of their own actions due to the fear of someone else.
I agree. I think that the way Holden see's things and unfair and untrustworthy. I think that after Allie's death, he see's life and people and unpredictable and unreliable. I think that he often times judges people because he doesn't trust what they say actually are. I also find that throughout the first 7 chapters, Holden finds himself in a position where others do not trust him, usually because of his sarcastic tone. I feel that this often times makes him hate or dis-like the person (because of his hate for 'phonies'). One example of this is when he went to mr. Spencer's house, who thought that Holden didn't care about his future, and lied to get out of work and other responsibilities.
DeleteThe comment above was Made by Tomas Benincasa
Delete"But it wasn't just that he was the most intelligent member in the family. He was also the nicest, in lots of ways. He never got mad at anybody. People with red hair are supposed to get mad very easily, but Allie never did, and he had very red hair." Page 39
ReplyDeleteI think this quote, and composition Holden wrote for Stradlater, shows the reader that he Holden praises his brother, who died of leukemia two years before. I think that his admiration for his brother show the reader that Holden wants to be smart and caring like his brother was. In addition, I think the way he puts himself down when he says "You would have liked him. He was two years younger than i was, but he was about fifty times as intelligent." shows how strives to be as intelligent and focused and kind as his brother. I also think it shows that he hates himself for not being as 'perfect' as Allie was, and that is why he suppresses his emotions and isolates himself in parts of the book. Allie's death also makes Holden spiteful because he doesn't believe that Allie deserved to die.
I also think that this quote shows Holden's mixed feelings with his family, because he says that "(Allie) was also the nicest, in lots of ways. He never got mad at anybody." I think that this part of the quote implies that Holden's parents where easy annoyed or outraged because of seemingly small things.
The Homewrok above was Made by Tomas Benincasa
DeleteSabina Morris
ReplyDelete“My hand still hurts me once in a while, when it rains and all and I can’t make a real fist anymore-not a tight one, I mean- but outside of that I don’t care much. I mean I’m not going to be a goddamn surgeon or a violinist or anything anyway.”(39)
This quote seemed significant to me for many reasons. One reason is that this is one of the only times Holden has actually opened up to the reader. It made him seem real. At the beginning of the book he says he’s not going to tell us anything about his past, and he doesn’t until he starts talking about his dead brother Allie. He shows his emotions for just one page of the book and it was so raw and real. He didn’t hide anything with his sarcastic humor or try to brush it off. I actually cried when I read this because his pain was relatable. When he was just talking about how much he hated the movies and Ackley, I didn’t like him at all. He seemed superficial or like he believed he was above everyone else. But when he said this quote I suddenly understood him. I got why he didn’t like old people and death, because his brother had died at such a young age. I also began to understand why he was so hard on himself and he tried to cover up his feelings. He doesn’t know how to deal with sadness, which is why he broke all of the windows in the garage. The only thing he could do was fight back. I also thought this quote was really important because he says that he isn’t the same as he was before Allie died by talking about his hand. It also was important because he is trying to reassure the reader that it Allies death that made him not want to be a surgeon or a violinist, because he writes “anyway”, so he wouldn’t have been these even if Allie had lived. But I don’t believe this because he has already said that he is a liar. Another thing that I thought was important about this quote is that it displays how he covers up his feelings. He makes the reader think that he really doesn’t care about Allie dyeing outside of his hand being busted up but the reader can tell that this has really affected him. I also noticed that he only describes people kindly when he really cares about them. He described Jane and Allie without saying a single mean thing about them which makes me think that he really loved both of them.
I agree. When Holden started opening up I was shocked, he started to let you see his sensitive side, rather than putting up this front of sarcasm and rudeness. I think that since Holden has revealed this information about himself, it is going to change the way that everyone views him. Rather than him being perceived as a mean, spoiled, rich boy, you start to see the reason behind the things that he does. Knowing about Allie's death, and it's impact on Holden also introduces the idea that maybe getting kicked out of all of these boarding schools is a cry for help. When he says, "I was only thirteen, and they were going to have me psychoanalyzed and all, because i broke the windows in the garage. I don't blame them. I really don't." it helps show that maybe he just needs help, although he doesn't want to admit it.
Delete"But all of sudden, I changed my mind. All of a sudden, I decided what I'd really do, I'd get the hell out of Pencey-right that same night and all."
ReplyDeleteHolden was thinking of different ways of getting out of the situation he was in. He had nowhere in the school left to go, he was upset after the fight and about Stradlater's date with Jane. He seems to have feelings for Jane. Maybe he likes her or maybe he just wants to protect her. Maybe he isn't aware of how he feels about her, but he hates the idea of someone like Stradlater using her, which is how Holden sees it. Holden accuses Stradlater of not even knowing her name. He gets so upset he decides to hit him even though he knows Stradlater is bigger and stronger. After getting beaten up and trying to think it through, Holden finally decides to leave the school. He thinks that's the best solution to deal with how he feels. To me, this is a key part of Holden's character. He cannot express, either in words or actions, how frustrated and how upset he feels, so he lashes out either physically or verbally and then decides to run away from his problems.
This quote caught my eye as well because he gets mad because he thinks that Stradlater doesn't even know her name right and how he doesn't really know her. Its like he has these secret feelings for her he doesn't want to admit. You can tell that he really cares about her. The fact that he got into a fight with Stradlater, he seems like the only way out is to leave and run away from all of the situations thats gone wrong.
Delete"He's dead now. He got leukemia and died when we were up in Maine, on July 18, 1946. You'd have liked him." (page 38)
ReplyDeleteThis line really stood out to me because this is the first time Holden really opens up to us about his life. Also the way that he says it, he does it in such a personal way, which brings up the question again of who his audience is. When he says "You'd have liked him" that makes it seem much more personal because whoever he is talking or writing too, he knows well enough to know that they would like his brother. It makes you think that maybe he isn't telling this story to random people on the street, but someone close to him. This also eliminates an idea that was brought up in class about how he could be writing in a journal or a diary of some sort. I am getting the idea that he might be telling his story to a future friend, or even girlfriend that we haven't been introduced to yet. Losing his brother so young also gives a possible explanation of why Holden is so negative and grumpy all of the time. Before I knew that Holden had lost his brother I was very confused, I thought that he was just being a typical rich, spoiled kid, but it turns out that he kind of has a reason for his behavior. I am starting to feel bad for Holden, but I also want to get to know him more because he keeps showing us these different sides of him.
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DeleteI agree with you in the way that I think that losing his brother is definitely a root of Holden's anger. I think that for Holden, losing his brother was almost the same as losing his family. Allie's death seems to be what tore Holden away from the rest of his family. After the death Holden was different. He became separated form his family, he trap pen in all of his feelings and resorted to anne rand violence instead of talking to his family.
DeleteI totally agree with you, i believe that his brother's death may have affected his life majorly as a person and his physical self. in the book he said that when his brother died, he had punched windows which affected his hand that he cant make a fist now, i think his brother's death may be the reason why he's not so open with the reader which is hard to understand who his audience really is like you said which i too kinda feel bad for him.
DeleteI agree with you, because Holden doesn't really say express his emotions in the book but he did here. In the introduction pages of the book it says" To my mother," so he dedicated this book to his mother and I'm sure his mother loved his brother. Yes, I agree that it isn't for anybody random but like we said in class this book was dedicated to his mother and now we know why it was. Just by Holden opening up this bit gave us so many Ideas to open up to. I Hope that further into the story Holden expresses more of his feelings.
DeleteI agree with you, Holden opened up when he was talking about his brother. This may be because his brother was in important piece of him. Allie's death impacted Holden's life. The first time I read this quote in the book, I didn't think of it in a voice or point of view perspective. I didn't even think about who Holden was talking to when he said "you'd have liked him." Perhaps he is talking to a journal or a future girlfriend we have yet to meet. I guess we'll have to wait and see! Thanks for helping me look at this quote in a different way.
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ReplyDelete"Almost every time someone gives me a present, it ends up making me sad" (pg.52)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because why would you feel bitter about receiving gifts? It shows how people actually do care about you and want to express it. Holden probably prefers to buy his own things rather than having people buy it for him and then feeling guilty about getting it for free. Or maybe he just thinks people feel pity for him because he can't get it himself or he feels that it is a waste of money to get unwanted stuff. My mood is actually different towards this line from the text because I actually like to be given gifts. It shows me how much people care and would take their time to buy me something and perhaps wrap it. Also, if someone gets you something you really wanted it shows that they actually listened to what you were saying and decided to give you what you desire or deserve. Holden can also feel grief for getting presents because maybe he gets things he doesn't want/need. For example, Holden's mom got him hockey skates instead of racing skates.
I think that Holden doesn't want people to pity him. Like he can get stuff by himself, he doesn't need anyone; I guess you can put it. I don't necessarily think he doesn't like them, but he doesn't appreciate the reasoning for them.
Delete“Yeah, i was defending your goddam honor. Stradlater said you had a lousy personality. I couldn’t let him get away with that stuff.” (48)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it was the exact opposite of what actually happened. The fight was about Jane and how Holden doesn’t think Stradlater treats her as well as he should. Holden says that Stradlater doesn’t even know how to pronounce her name. This shows how much self control Stradlater had because for many other people Stradlater would be the one to swing first and seeing that he is bigger than Holden it would make sense. This also brings up the topic of him being a compulsive liar and how he will make something up that is totally untrue to make himself look better. Even if it might cause problems for others in the near future. In conclusion i think Holden is very selfish and lives in the moment (#yolo) and doesn’t think about the future and what problems it can cause for people other and especially himself.
"I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddamn windows with my fist, just for the hell of it. I even tried to break all the windows on the station wagon we had that summer, but my hand was already broken and everything by that time, and I couldn't do it. It was a very stupid thing to do I'll admit, but I hardly didn't even know why I was doing it, and you didn't know Allie." pg 39
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me the most, and I feel like it shows a different side of Holden. Holden has a care-free attitude, doesn't really care about everything, kind of an outsider and doesn't really have a "loving" vibe about him. But you can tell that his brother brought out a soft side in him, the way he talks about him. Holden's not good with words but he describes Allie as "really nice." A lot. I think Allie was one of the few examples in Holden's life when he knew what love really was and when he felt love in a somewhat awkward way. But Holden was so new to this feeling and rarely felt it, that's why I don't think he broke the windows because he was angry. But because he was heartbroken and he didn't know what else to do or how to deal with the emotion, so he began punching the windows out. Another example of heartbreak or "jealousy" was when Holden punched Stradlater. Love is such a strange and rare feeling to Holden, so his only response is innocent, awkward anger.
"Thats the trouble with all you morons. You never want to discuss anything" (pg.44)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because I feel like by saying this, Holden is being a huge hypocrite. Holden says that Stradlater is a moron for not discussing anything, where Holden keeps everything bottled up inside of him. So shouldn't that make Holden a moron as well? The difference is that Stradlater knows that he is not telling Holden the whole truth about Jane and is totally okay with that, Holden, on the other hand, knows that he is not letting any of his feelings out but tries to convince himself that his feeling aren't even there. Holden lies to himself to make him feel better but he should really just talk about it, let his feelings out because there is always going to be someone there to help him, I know he doesn't realize it but he has more people that care about him then he thinks, like Stradlater and Mr. Spencer and even Ackley. I think that Holden is just afraid of being let down, he is afraid to make new friends at school for fear that he will be kicked out again and lose them. Allie's death had a massive impact on Holden’s life, and instead of taking from his death that he should do everything he can to improve his life, he more took from it that, why get so close to something to only have it leave you
"i kept laying there in the dark anyway,though, trying not to think about old Jane and Stradlater in that goddam Ed Banky's car. but it was almost impossible" (pg.49)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me because it showed the reader that Holden is either jealous or really cares about Jane. subsequently, this is important because this was the reason that Stradlater and him were arguing which may have lead to the nose bleeding for Holden. in my perspective this is important because maybe Holden has feelings for Jane and he just can't express his true feelings which leads to his anger like when he asked Strandlater if he had asked Jane if she still keeps all her kings in the back row and Stradlater said no. this angered him and to know all of Stradlater's techniques he feels that he gave Jane the time due to his previous experiences with Stradlater in double dates. to add on, i feel that holden tries to talk about his life to mainly Ackley who he spends most of the time with but just aviods the conversation just like with Mr.Spencer. Holden needs to be more open with himself so that others can help him maybe this is what he lacks in which may be the reason for flunking his classes and if he was more open maybe the reader may understand how he feels about Jane. Holden 's argument may have made him want to leave early despite his feeling of sadness and lonesome. even before he leaves pency, he starts crying which shows he really hasn't found himself as he leaves school after school he may not realize who he is and what is his purpose but i believe he should find himself through his friends which may help him express himself better and does he have feelings for Jane? i think he does or it could be that he just wants to look out for an old friend.
~ Junior Cabrera
"So what I did, I wrote about my brother Allie's baseball mitt...He's dead now. He got leukemia and died when we were up in Maine, on July 18, 1946. You'd have liked him." pg.38
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it's an example of how something so simple means so much to Holden. I can relate this writing craft back to Frank McCourt's book Angela's Ashes, in the sea-saw passage where it was McCourt's first encounter with death; this was probably Holden's first encounter with death. In addition, I noticed the craft of Holden describing something positive that turns into something negative. This probably means Holden feels as though anything good that happens to him ends badly. Also the last sentence of the passage brings me back to the one-on-one feel I receive when I read this book, as if he's actually talking to me. I find it amazing that I get all of these thoughts from just this one quote and many others.
"All he did was keep talking in this very monotonous voice about some babe he was supposed to have had sexual intercourses with the summer before.He'd already told me about it about a hundred times." page 37
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because, even though he had heard it more than a hundred times before, he still let him babble on about the sexual intercourses he was going to have but never had the nerve to stop him and tell him he was a lier. Holden talks a lot in his head but never tells them what he's thinking. Even when Holden knew that he was lying because every time he told the story he would come up with a different scenario. Most of the book is just Holdens thoughts in his mind but he never talks whats on his mind.
~ Erybel Gomez
This quote also stood out to me not only because Holden likes to think in his head a lot but also to the fact that he used "sexual intercourse" instead of sex or any other word thats less proper. I just figured that such a topic would bring out the twelve year old in him. This quote also stood out to me because it shows that Holden is a peculiar character.
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ReplyDelete“…but he wouldn’t believe me. People never believe you.” (Page 37)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is important, given that it captures the essence of Holden Caulfield’s misanthropic character. Holden has an awful habit of generalizing, especially when it involves people. If a single individual discomforts him, Holden will not hesitate in exposing his hostility towards the entire human race. Oh, Holden. How is it that, just a few chapters prior, Holden claimed to being a liar, and now, he is discontent over the idea of no one "believing" him? It is absurd how Holden expects the world to have trust in him when he gives them no reason to do so. Oftentimes, I’m conflicted in whether I should sympathize with this boy or simply tell him to get a hold of his pitiful thoughts, which appear to be based on some sort of single minded ideology rather than reality. Holden Caulfield needs a wakeup call.
"... The thing was descriptive about it , though, was that he had poems written all over the fingers and the pocket and everywhere. In green ink. ..
ReplyDelete(Pg48)
This sentence really stood out to be beacause 1: later in the chapter he can not stop saying how much he hates his roommate Stradlater yet he was doing his homework with he was on a date with Jane. 2:He seemed excited to write about this glove and the story behind it. Also was really cool to see him get all excited about writing cause this is first real time we see why English is the only subject he isn't failing and the class he likes the most . Last ,3 it also shows us as the readers that even though he might hate a person we see that he also always cares about them even if it doesn't seem like it at first because why would he do this for Stradlater if he didn't care about him a little bit. -Nayah Ferris
" I'd only been in about two fights in my life, and i lost both of them. I'm not tough. I'm a pacifist, if you want to know the truth." - p.46
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me while i was reading because a pacifist is a person who believes that war and violence is unjustifiable. So this confuses me because he was basically looking for violence when he kept calling Stradlater a moron, he knew it pissed him off. He also contradicts himself here by saying he's a pacifist but has been in two fights in his life and then goes on to try fight Stardlater after they argue. I've notice that Holden likes too contradict himself, I believe he does this so he can convince himself that he isn't like others. He said morons are people that never want to discuss anything intelligent but he too doesn't discuss anything intelligent. This brings a question to mind, why does he hates phonies if he is basically a phony himself?
"...but he didn't believe me. People never believe you." (pg. 37)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me. It stood out to me because it shows how Holden likes to make general statements about people. This quote also made me question what he meant by "you". To me, it felt like he was talking about teenager in which I could really connect to because, as a teenager I usually find that I have to explain myself to gain peoples trust. This quote also stood out to me because it helped me understand J.D. Salinger's writing technique. Salinger shows a relationship that Holden has with another character and uses that to lead to Holden making a general statement about people which can he seen with Ackley and Stradlater. This quote makes me feel that Holden needs to stop generalizing people because it could be a factor in why he is so lonely.
After reading your claim, I can see your ideas and point of view and I have to agree with you. I have to agree with you, because not only did this quote also stand out to me but also, because it reminded me of Angela's Ashes. It reminded me of Angela's Ashes, since both Frank and Holden at times make really deep thought provoking statements almost about anything that stands out to them. Furthermore, in a way I can also connect with this quote since I have had some experiences that can relate with this quote. For instance, at times my actions had no evil intentions but because of my age and appearance people had a hard time believing that my intentions were actually just kind. ~Edgar.
DeleteQuote: “I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddamn windows with my fist, just for the hell of it." (Salinger pg.39)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me, due to the reason that it shows a very essential moment in Holden Caulfield’s life. For instance, connecting this quote back to, Angela Ashes when Frank’s first family member, Margaret dies this quote is also an example that demonstrates Holden’s first experience with death. Furthermore, this quote stood out to me because it gives a perfect image of the type of person that Holden. Which is a caring and emotional person since, he punched and broke the all the windows in the garage and all because the death of his young brother. Finally, this quote stood out to me since it shows a different side of the curious and blunt Holden that I’ve known so far. Those are some reasons, why this specific quote stood out to me out of all the other quotes from the text.
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ReplyDelete"My brother Allie had this left-handed fielder's mitt. He was left-handed. The thing that was descriptive about it, though, was that he had poems written all over the fingers and pocket and everywhere. In green ink. He wrote them on it so that he's have something to read when he was in the field and nobody was up to bat. He's dead now. He got leukemia and died when we were up in Maine, on July 18, 1946. You'd have liked him." (38)
ReplyDeleteThis passage stood out to me because I think that it shows that Holden misses his brother more than he actually admits. First of all, the night Allie died, Holden broke all the windows in the garage. "I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddam windows with my fist, just for the hell of it," Holden later recalled. (39) I think this is evidence of Holden missing his brother because the fact that he punched all the windows means that Holden was probably very upset and sad that his brother had died and needed to somehow take out that anger and sadness. Another example of Holden missing Allie, was right after he wrote the composition for Stradlater. The composition was about Allie and his baseball glove, but Stradlater said, "For chrissake, Holden. This is about a goddam baseball glove." (41) Basically, Stradlater did not like this composition, he did not think it was good enough. After hearing this, Holden got very defensive of the composition and pulled it out of Stradlater's hands, then crumpled it up. The author gave evidence that Holden was upset after this, such as mentioning that he lit a cigarette in the dorm to annoy Stradlater and repeating that Holden hated Stradlater. This is an example of Holden secretly missing Allie because after Stradlater insulted the composition, Holden became very upset and defensive of it. I'm getting the impression that Allie was a big part of Holden's life and impacted him a lot, even though Holden hasn’t admitted it yet.
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ReplyDelete