Choose a line from the text and explain why it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in general?Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
One quote that I thought was interesting in the part that we had to read is when Holden is talking about his deceased brother. On page 39 he says "I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddamned windows with my fist, just for the hell of it... I hardly knew why I was doing it". I think that is quote is interesting because it shows that Holden has very powerful emotions that can do things that he doesn't understand himself, I think that this may play an important part later in the story, maybe his emotions will cause him to do something reckless. I also think that this quote shows that Holden has many emotions we have yet to see, it also is more evidence that he hides his true emotions, as we had never heard this information until now, and that we haven't seen any evidence of him acting this way.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about how this can show so much or affect so much of Holden's life, but remember in class when we talked about how he said he was the best liar ever? How can we know that we can trust him? What tells us this isn't another trick?
DeleteI disagree with you, Lucie. I do no think that Holden was being dishonest when talking about his deceased brother and describing how he reacted on the night of his death. I think that he was most likely being sincere and releasing his true emotions as Josef mentioned. However, it is impossible to be sure.
DeleteOn one hand, I actually agree with Lucie, because he did say he was the best liar ever, so we won't be able to trust everything he says. However on the other hand, I also agree with you Abby because he could be telling the audience, "you", about his true feelings and this shows that we're starting to see emotions that will show us who Holden really is. Yet, we will never know if he's telling the truth or not.
DeleteI disagree with you Lucie because when he heard in chapter 4 that he knew Stradlaters date he could not hold in his emotions. showing how maybe he could not hold his emotions in either when his brother died.
Delete""Did you ask her if she still keeps all her kings in the back row?"" (Page 42)
ReplyDeleteI chose this particular quote because it tells us something special about Holden's individual personality. It shows us that he pays attention to little details, such as how Jane Gallagher used to keep all her kings in the back row when playing checkers. This is one of the many reasons why this line acutely stands out to me. I think that Holden likes to reminisce and often recall the past. His distant memories might give us some clues on what the next chapters may reveal. This is mainly why I believe that this quote is interesting.
I strongly agree with this idea. I also think that this idea relates to other parts of the book, like when Holden is asking Stradlater about his date with Jane. Holden gets mad when Strandlater won't tell him about the date and that he didn't ask Jane about the kings in the back row. "I told him he didn't even care if a girl kept her kings in the back row or not, and the reason he didn't care was because he was a goddam stupid moron." (44). This shows that holden feels very strongly about little details like this one.
DeleteI agree with you but i also feel like this quote isnt only telling us that he remembers small details it is revealing that he remembers these small details about Jane Gallagher. Hugo makes a good point about how this probably relates to other things but in the quote Hugo says above i feel like the reason he got mad was because of reasons bigger that Stradlater just not caring about small details. I think Jane is going to become an important charector in the book
Delete"I told him I wasn't going to chuck it at anybody, but he wouldn't believe me. People never believe you." (37).
ReplyDeleteThis line stands out to me because Holden seems to be making a point about society's views towards teenagers like him. He is also saying "you" at the end of this line. Maybe he is assuming that the reader is a teenager? Either way, Holden probably is saying that people should judge teenagers a certain way just because they are teenagers, and that people (like the bus driver) should believe that teenagers like Holden are able to bring snowballs onto buses without chucking them. This also tells us that Holden has a critical personality.
I disagree and agree with Hugo in a sense. Yes, maybe Salinger is assuming that the reader is a teenager and is making a point about society's point of view/impressions about teens, but Holden might also be talking to a third party as he is narrating the story to the reader. As we have discussed in class, we do not know who Holden is talking to. Yes, we have confirmed that Holden is looking back at the moments he is narrating, but we d not know who he is narrating/telling the story to. Holden could be breaking the fourth wall and directly talking to the reader, but at the same time could be talking to a teenager (like himself) who understands his aggresions towards the adult society, a teenager who he can trust, but has maybe not even been developed in the story. Maybe this certain third party character will never even be introduced in the story? You never know. All we can do now is keep turning the pages.
Delete"I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddamn windows, with my first just for the hell of it" (39)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because while reading the previous chapters I got the impression that Holden didn't care about anything. This quote shows the impact Allies death had on him and how the only way he knew how to deal with it was through anger. I think this is an important aspect is figuring out who Holden is because its saying a lot about what has affected him and how it has affected him in his life. The fact that he decided to write an entire composition on just Allies baseball mit shows how much he must have meant to him.
This quote stood out to me as well. It definitely shows the impact that Allie's death had on Holden. We can see that in the end of the quote he says "just for the hell of it." This seems to say that Holden is trying to convince himself that he was just smashing the windows as something he decided to do on a whim. However, the reader can clearly tell that he was acting out of grief and anger, and while he was overcome with these feelings, he smashed the windows. This adds on to what we were discussing in class about how Holden tries to maintain an image of himself as someone who is above all the phonies and doesn't care about things like school work. This gives him a condescending attitude towards everyone else when really, the fact that he tries to be someone he is not makes it seem like he is a phony.
DeleteI agree with both of your points. I feel that just from this quote alone we can see how emotional Holden is and how his emotions can over power him. I think that this is interesting because when I read through the book I don't really see Holden as an emotional guy like when he tells the reader that he is failing four out of five subjects so nonchalantly. I agree with Lena that Holden is hypocritical for calling everybody a phony when in fact he is the phony.
DeleteI agree when you say that Allie meant alot to Holden as a person. I also feel like Holden can really care about something when he really loves something and is emotionally attached. For example he really shows that he really cares about Stradlater's date, Jane Gallagher. Although we dont know what Jane and Holdens relationship is we can tell that he has really strong feelings for her because he almost jealous of Stradlater going out with her and gets beaten to a pulp when he starts to insult Stradlater because he is jealous.
DeleteI agree with what Yukie said, because I also think that Holden really loved and cared for Allie or else he would break window just for the "hell of it." He was really upset he he passed away because I feel like he probably had a special connection with Allie, unlike the relationship he has with his brother D.B where he thinks his brother is just selling him self out.
Delete" He was terrifically intelligent. His teachers were always writing letters to my mother, telling her what a pleasure it was having a boy like Allie in their class. And they weren't just shooting the crap. They really meant it...He was also the nicest, in lots of ways. He never got mad at anyone...God, he was a nice kid though..." (38)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because when I was reading the first few chapters of this book, I believed that Holden didn't care about anyone or anything. However, when I read this part, I realized that Holden really cared for and loved his little brother and saw him as a genuine person. This is the first time Holden is showing real emotion for a person. Allie's death has also impacted his life in a big way and it shows me that he deals with his brother's death through anger. Holden believed that Allie was a really intelligent and nice person.This line shocked me because Holden never sees anyone as nice and intelligent without insulting them first. For example, when he talked about Old Selma Thurmer, he said she was nice, but she also had "a big nose and and her nails were all bitten down and bleedy-looking." Holden didn't say one mean thing about Allie and this really surprises. This shows us how much Allie meant to him.
I agree when you say that he deals with his brother's death by being angry. He does break things and is very expressive about how he feels when it comes to his death. However, Allie isn't the only person he has been able to express positive feelings towards. For example, when he talks about Jane Gallagher, he sounds quite fond of her like how he remembers that when she'd get a king in checkers, "she'd just leave it in the back row" (p.32). He didn't insult her or Allie. It doesn't seem like he insults people who, on some level, understand him. Jane also had a lousy childhood and Allie was kind. He was able to connect with them both and not just Allie.
DeleteI agree with both of these ideas, and I also think that Holden feels a bit protective of the people that really mean something to him. For instance, Holden wanted to know all about Stradlater's date with Jane Gallagher, and he was intensely worried about it when Stradlater didn't come back to the dorm on time. After Stradlater did return, Holden was really nervous and wanted to know everything that had happened. He said, "I could hardly keep my voice from shaking all over the place. Boy, was I getting nervous. I just had a feeling something had gone funny," (42). You can see that Holden wants to know every single detail about the people he cares about.
DeleteI put it on, and turned the old peak around to the back, the way I liked it, and then I went over and took a look at my stupid face in the mirror." (p.45)
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me as it suggests Holden's attachment to the hat. This was after an intense fight with Stradlater. Before this, we learn that he smokes. It appears the hat brings him comfort as a cigarette would to the smoker he presumably is. Just after the fight, he says " I couldn't find my goddam hunting hat anywhere" (45) like he needed it immediately. Most smokers would feel the same for a cigarette. Before, he talked with a teacher about flunking out of school. He probably wasn't in a good place after that. Yet, he goes for the hat instead of smoking. So this, to me, suggests that he feels better after putting it on like someone would after smoking. Maybe the hat serves as the cigarette's substitute. Then again, he might just loves the hat and it's cold out... I guess it's all about reading farther and seeing if he still talks about it.
I agree with your point about the hat. At first, I had disagreed because well, a hat is just a hat, but then after reading your response and connecting it to the book, I can see where you are coming from. People who smoke cigarettes seem like they do resort to it in a situation containing stress and anger. So when he grabs for the hat, it's awfully suspicious. Why would Holden just wear the hat and just look at himself in the mirror after getting into the "rough housing" he did with Stradlater over Jane? It makes no sense to me.
Delete"It looked pretty as hell, and we all started throwing snowballs and horsing around all over the place. It was very childish, but everybody was really enjoying themselves," (35).
ReplyDeleteThis line really stood out to me when I was reading because it shows that Holden, no matter how hard he tries to pretend like he couldn't care less about leaving Pencey, still feels some emotional attachment to the school. The past few chapters have been about him remembering his time at Pencey, and he seems almost nostalgic in the way he's remembering everything. Also, this quote doesn't just tell us about Holden, it tells us something about people in general. If people know that they have already lost something, like Holden knows he has to leave Pencey, they tend to not show how much they cared about it, like Holden telling himself that he doesn't care about being kicked out of school.
I strongly agree with your idea, I also think even though he claims to hate Pencey he's actually grown used to the school and is attached to it. On page 52 Holden says" ... I stood for a while next to the stairs and took a last look down the goddam corridor. I was sort of crying. I don't know why." I think this quote confirms your idea of Holden having an emotional attachment to the school. I also agree with you that he feels nostalgic about the school; he includes not only the worst parts of his life at Pencey but a lot of happy moments like when he had the snowball fight. I think wherever you go whether you have a terrible time there or a fantastic one you feel a connection to the place and I think that's what Holden felt.
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ReplyDelete"I had blood all over my mouth and chin and even on my pajamas and bathrobe. It partly scared me and it partly fascinated me. All that blood and all sort of made me look tough." (45)
ReplyDeleteThis quote had really stood out to me when i was reading. This is because of when he says it had fascinated me. If I had been battered to a pulp and looked into the mirror i would have been terrified and speechless; however, he says it had fascinated him. I believe that because of this you can really see that Holden is a boy with many curiosities and wonder. But a question that pops up in my mind while reading this line is "Holedn, why do you find yourself being beaten to a pulp fascinating?" I feel like this quote is very confusing and very hard to understand; however, at the same time i feel like this is a very important line to understanding Holden as a person throughout the book.
"Stradlater was a very sexy bastard." (pg 32)
ReplyDeleteThis quote, i felt, told me so much about Holden, who he is as a person, and his struggles in life, and thus stood out to me as an interesting quote. First of all, this line highlights Holden's struggle when it comes to understanding his sexuality. This line explains one of the many homosexual encounters that holden has, that overall, challenge his equality. At first, I thought Holden was simply describing his roommate, Strandlater. He then kept repeating how handsome and muscular Strandlater was and then i became questionable about Holden's sexuality. My belief was further proven by the fact that Holden said he has trouble when it comes to girls, when he's describing the headmasters daughter. The fact that Holden is unsure about himself and who he is seems to play a big part in Holdens life, as he is searching for his true self, like any other teenager, and it makes the book feel that more lively. I can also infer that JD Salinger, when he was a teenager, had trouble with his sexuality and it portrays itself in the book. The question that this quote raises in my head is if homosexuality was more, common or tolerated , back then. It seems that Strandlater has somewhat knowledge of Holden's feelings toward him, and i got the sense that Strandlater had mutual feelings toward Holden. Im not sure what this status quote is on homosexuality during the time period that Holden is living in, but my prior knowledge on the era and the experiences that Holden is experiencing is conflicting with each other. During the time era Holden is living in, Homesexuality is "frowned upon" in a sense, and even if you were of a different sexual orientation, you were still expected to have a family and a husband/wife, but Holden is "straight" and has these unaddressed feelings towards Strandlater and he seems to be quite welcoming of them, even though Strandlater is also "straight". I would love to know about anyones opinion on the subject.
I strongly agree with you, Adrian. You are definitely right on the subject of homosexuality and the way Holden describes Stradlater. Somehow, back then, people didn't really admit or tolerate the subject of homosexuality. I also agree on the part where you say that Stradlater might be welcoming Holden's feelings towards him and might even have mutual feelings. Whenever Holden talks about Stradlater's appearance, he seems to give more emphasis on the fact that Stradlater is "a very sexy bastard." I'm not really sure if homosexuality was common or tolerated in that era, but it is possible.
DeleteOne quote that stood out to me was, on page 39. "I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddam windows with my fist, just for the hell of it." This quote stood out to me because this shows Holden being very frustrated and actually showing his true emotions instead of hiding them like he usually does. This also shows that Holden reacted very strongly to his brothers death. This also shows that behind this cool kid who doesn't really care about school actually has some very strong feelings about many things of as far as we know his brother's death.
ReplyDelete-Ethan Richard Burda I
"The bus driver opened the doors and made me throw it out. I told him I wasn't going to chuck it at anybody, but he didn't believe me. People never believe you."
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of a few reasons. One reason that this stood out to me was the style that it was written in. The way that Holden repeats "People never believe you" is very interesting because he is trying to emphasize the point. Earlier in the book, the same style is shown when Holden says that people never notice anything and he says it twice. In this quote you also get to understand Holden a little bit better. You see that Holden needs someone in his life to notice him or someone in his life to believe what he says because from the way I read this quote is that Holden is sighing when repeating his thought. One last thing that was interesting in this quote is that Holden changes the pronouns from "me" to "you". This was interesting to me because he tells us that no one believes him, and then repeats that but it is directed towards the reader individually or just people in general by saying "you". What I understood from this is that Holden thinks that people have a big lack of trust towards him and everyone else.
I'm not sure about the last part. I think if he wanted to reaffirm that no one believes him he would have said something along the lines of "People don't ever believe me" But instead he says "People never believe you" Which makes you think maybe he after saying "...But he didn't believe me" he was reminded that people never believe "You" either, which makes you wonder again who he is talking to. He must know this person deeply to know that no one believes that person.
DeleteI agree that you said it helps us "understand Holden better". I think that he has a specific tone and we learn about him more and more throughout the book. I also think in this quote that he might be talking about the "you" as the teenagers. I think he might be saying that adults never trust adolescence and the possibilities of trust. He also counters this idea because he says, "I'm the most terrific liar you ever say in your life." (16) He expects people to trust him, even though he calls himself a great liar.
Delete" I'm not to tough. I'm a pacifist, if you want to know the truth." (pp 46)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because i think it encompasses Holden's attitude towards most things. he said this right after his roommate Stradlater beat him up. i think this shows how he is constantly adjusting his views in order to justify things that happen in his life. He started the fight with Stradlater, which is not something a pacifist would do, and Stradlater was even trying to get Holden to stop in order to avoid conflict. Nonetheless, as soon as Holden lost the fight, he seemed to say this to justify his loss. This reminds me of our class discussions, and how we said that he seems to be fooling himself with an image that he tries to project of someone that he wishes to be. He accuses others of being 'phonies' but this seems to make him a bit hypocritical. Lots of people try to convince themselves that everything they do is the right thing, even if they know that it may not be, just to relieve themselves of guilt or blame. Holden seems to posses this quality. It is human nature to try to escape blame and guilt, and Holden's persona that he keeps for himself is just a way for him to do this. He is not admitting to himself that he seems to meet his own criteria for a 'phony', and maybe this simply helps him to get through all of the situations that he has been through, like his brother dying, and constantly being expelled from schools. This should take more of a toll on Holden than it seemingly does. it is possible he is holding everything in, and he is simply tring not to let anyone see that.
I agree with this point. While reading the novel, I also saw Holden as a hypocrite, for the present example, the fight with Stradlater he justifies his means to not be able to sustain his part of the guilt. This also reminds me of the class discussion, if we are able to trust him as the narrator and the point of view of the story. This line and expression from Holden's mind does not correlate with his actions. It seems Holden is trying to be portray hiself as the good guy in all the scenarios of the book, to the "you" or whoever he is talking to throughout his novel.
Deletei totally agree with this statement. I agree because Holden is always changing his interpretations from one chapter to another. Also he is always arguing that everything he does is right, even though he knows it isn't. the reason why i think he always justifies everything he does or says or happens is because he doesn't want anyone to think he wrong because that will make his imperfections shine through-which is the reason he has a brick wall up. so no one will see his flaws. there is a saying that every flaw you see in someone else is another flaw to add to the number of flaws you have. so basically Holden has hundreds of flaws just like everyone else. one including how hypocritical he is and that he wants to seem perfect even though there is no such thing as perfection.
Delete"I told him he didn't even care if a girl kept all her kings in the back row or not, and the only reason he didn't care was because he was a goddam stupid moron." (44)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stands out to me because it tells you that Holden is really upset about Stradlater going out with Jane. At the end of chapter six I was really confused over Holden's behavior regarding Jane. He constantly asked Stradlater to tell her this, and that. Holden hasn't acted like that over any other character. Also at the beginning of chapter 6 Holden became very violent with Stradlater. at first I thought it was because Holden's feelings for Jane way run deeper than friendship and jealousy over Stradlater and Jane's date pushed him over the edge. But if that were true wouldn't have Holden tried to hurt Stradlater before the date when he first of it? Maybe he didn't react violently at first because he was so shocked and happy that Jane was nearby and Holden couldn't wrap his head around it. Only after time had passed that he really realized that Jane and Stradlater were going on a date and that Holden realized his true feelings. But that also has faults because Holden hasn't said he likes Jane like that, but then again he could have feelings for her and not know what they are. Upon further reflection I realize there is another reason for Holden's behavior: It is possible that Jane and Holden are such good friends that Holden doesn't love her like a girlfriend (If it is any type of love or affection) But loves her like a sister. And Holden feels he has to protect her from Stradlater who is a player. In the quote Holden says Stradlater doesn't care that she keeps all her kings in the back row, and I think he trying to say Stradlater doesn't care about girls personalities and their quirks but how they look. Until we know what Holden truly feels for Jane then all of this is just speculation. Holden is a very complex character and I hope to get to know more about him and how he feels about Jane.
"Some things are hard to remember…"
ReplyDelete-pg. 52
The first thing I think of when I read this line is that it is probably one of the truest things he's said so far throughout the book. I often have trouble even remembering what I did the previous day, let alone what happened years ago. I get a big picture in my head, what happened overall, but I don't think of many details. Most of the details really escape me, and I think that we ourselves, or rather our brains think that the details don't matter, and that it's all about the big picture. I think details are worth remembering though. I personally think that because I romanticize about memories, and those romanticizations come from details, things that make me feel happy, comforting things. A lot of those memories are from sixth grade, playing video games with friends, or my love for the city without really knowing what the city is like, inside and out. I love the winter, but that comes from memories, and I'm scared that when the winter comes, my romanticizing of it will make it almost a disappointment, because it didn't serve up to my memories. It's dangerous to remember too much, but it's also dangerous to remember too little. That's what I took away from this sentence.
I kind of agree with what you said about how our brains think the details don't matter, but when you think of very important events, at least in my case, my brain does remember the very important events. I think what happens is that our brain only has a limited capacity, and chooses what details to keep and which to get rid of. For example, if you were trying to memorize math formulas, those are all about the detail, so if you couldn't remember those, you couldn't really do math. But I think your second to last sentence is very powerful. "It's dangerous to remember too much, but it's also dangerous to remember too little." I think this line does a great job of wrapping up what your whole response is about
Delete“I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddam windows with my fists, just for the hell of it… I hardly didn’t even know I was doing it, and you didn’t know Allie.” (pg. 39)
ReplyDeleteI chose this line because I thought it was extremely important in understanding Holden. Up until now in the book Holden made it seem he cared about nothing, getting kicked out of school or forgetting equipment for a fencing match and then having his team ostracize him. It seemed nothing really fazed or affected him but now hearing about Allie I realized maybe he does actually care about something. It’s obvious in this quote that he loved his brother and was absolutely miserable, heartbroken and infuriated that his brother died. This line shows how Holden was deeply affected by his brother’s death and it may even be the reason why Holden always hides his true feelings and why he seems so strong and careless.
" I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddam windows with my fist, just for the hell of it." (39)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because it was it was a very significant point of his life. For example when you have a family member that dies, especially your brother you are going crazy and you don't know what to do. You are fill with anger and you attend to do stuff that helps you come down. Also at one point you wish that it was you and not your brother and you stay days thinking about it and its very hard to get over it. This also shows that Holden cared about his brother and he was very emotional that night his brother died. It also shows that he's not hiding his emotions about his brother's death not like the other things he's hiding.
I agree with the last part. I think that he holds a lot inside, and that having a family member that he thought was very important die was too much for him to take. I agree also with the part where you say, "Also at one point you wish that it was you and not your brother and you stay days thinking about it and its very hard to get over it." I think he really did think it should've been him dead, and not his brother. He says himself that "He was two years younger, but 50 times as intelligent." (38)
Delete"My hand still hurts once in a while, when it rains and all, and I can't make a real fist anymore-not a tight one, I mean-but outside of that I don't really care much. I mean I'm not going to be a goddamn violinist or anything anyways." (39)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me, because I iinterpreted this line as a metaphor between his brother dying, and his hand. Since he had hurt himself from smashing all the windows in the night he died, his hand never healed itself, and I also think he never really recovered from the memory of his brother dying either. In this quote he says, "I can't make a real fist anymore-not a tight one..". In this line, Holden is trying to say that when Allie died, it hurt him a lot more than he wanted it to. I think that he really looked up to his brother, even though he was younger than him, and had a very special bond with him. I also think that the quote explains why he doesn't have good relationships with his teachers, parents, and friends. A person he really looked up too at a relatively young age, was taken from him. I think he feels like if he makes a good relationship with somebody, he would become attached, and then something could happen to them, just how Allie was killed from leukemia. I think that Holden couldn't bear to lose another person that he loved as much as he loved Allie. The last part of the quote says, "I mean-but outside of that I don't really care much. I mean I'm not going to be a goddamn violinist or anything anyways." I think he's trying to convey that you don't need to get close to people, because you won't need them anyways; because they will probably all leave you in the end. I think this line says that Holden likes to isolate himself, so he doesn't fall apart. I can in a way connect this to Angelas Ashes. Frank McKourt had so many siblings die on him, that he cold never get too attached to them, even though he loved them. I think this line is saying that, in general everybody loses somebody, and even somebody as tough as Holden can be shaken by the death of his brother, Allie.
"We had the same meal every night at Pencey." (46)
ReplyDeleteThe reason this line stood out to me is that it showed how Salinger (using the voice of Holden) can take one detail and elaborate on it a ton. Just from this one detail, Salinger is able to write two paragraphs. Not only does it only show Salinger's ability to elaborate, but it also shows Holden's tone. When I read the paragraphs after this line, I felt like he was using a tone of annoyance, and how Pencey gets him so aggrivated. Another thing I felt when reading this section was how fast his tone can change from neagtive to positive, and how well he makes that transition. In the instance of this line, on page 46, he uses commas and one word to transition, and I feel it works very effectively. I think this is one of my favorite parts of the book, how the tone changes from postive to negative so qucikly and so effectively. The main thing I got from this line was how many things Salinger can say one detail, then branch off into so many things throughout the book, and can do that very well.
"I wasn't going to chuck it at anybody, but he wouldn't believe me. People never believe you." (37)
ReplyDeleteThis quote definitely stands out to me because in my eyes, it is completely true. But something is funky here. Holden claims he is "the most terrific liar you'll ever meet" (16), so maybe that is why people never believe him? He says it like people never believe each other in general, but I think it is only like that mostly towards him. I mean, if you are constantly lying, people are going to get used to it and then it's going to turn into boy who cries wolf. But he does supply enough evidence to prove that people never believe him (note: him). Like on page 11 when old Spencer said, "I doubt very much you opened your text book even once. Did you? Tell the truth, boy." And then when Holden claimed he DID glance at it a couple of times (even though he was lying), Old Spencer replied back sarcastically with "You glanced through it, eh?" This tells me that people (Old Spencer being an example) never truly believe him, but I still think he assumes people never believe others, but it's only because the trust that Holden has with other people are tiny little bits that are barely holding on right.
I agree with you, if someone lies constantly, then eventually they will never be taken seriously. But what I think he is trying to say, is that in general people don't usually trust others. He is saying that we live in a world where there are so many lies and liars, you don't know what to believe anymore. Holden feels like nobody can rely on his word, and know that trust isn't given out to strangers anymore.
DeleteOne line that really stands out to me, is when Holden says," As a matter of fact, I'm the only dumb one in the family. My brother D.B.'s a writer and all, and my brother Allie, the one that died, that I told you about, was a wizard. I'm the only really dumb one." Page 67. To me, this shows how pessimistic Holden is about his intellectual competence. Holden seems like a really intelligent kid, but he constantly tells himself that he can't do something, or that someone is better than him. One example that I can give, is what we were talking about in class, how he calls himself illiterate, but is asked by his roommate to do his English homework, but not too well. I also think that he says this because he misses his little brother; he portrays him as a smart kid to try to make his brother look like he was a good kid. I just believe that Holden is actually a very intelligent kid, but he just talks down about himself too much.
ReplyDeleteI sort-of agree with you here Frank. Holden does say these things about himself that make it sound like he's modest, or just has low self-esteem, but I also think that he's lying to the reader when he describes himself like that. We've talked in class about the language he uses, and the way he talks in general. He talks about "fake," and "real," people, and how he only likes the latter. But I think he associates himself with the "real," people. Also, I believe by using words like "real," and "fake," he thinks he knows more about the world, and life, like most teenagers do. I think as we keep reading, Holden will reveal more about himself.
DeleteI agree with you, Frank, and I think that it is clear that Holden is far more intelligent than he tells himself. In addition, though, I think he knows he is intelligent, but he lies about it as a way of not having to take responsibility. For example, when he is talking to Old Spencer about his future, he repeatedly says that he’s a moron and that he has “not too much” concern for his future. I think if he gives the impression that he is unintelligent, then he won’t be expected by others accomplish anything, and in the end he won’t a disappointment to anybody. I think this is a form of self-protection.
Delete“He’s dead now. He got leukemia and died when we were up in Maine, on July 18, 1946. You’d have liked him,” (p. 38).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because I think it reveals a lot about Holden and why he acts the way he does. This is the first time that Holden goes into detail about his past, and it’s clear the death of his brother Allie must have brought him so much anger and sadness. What’s surprising, though, is that he talks about his brother’s death so casually, making the event seem less monumental than it must have been. However, you can tell by the affection he clearly felt toward Allie, and by how angry he became when he died, that his death had a huge impact on Holden. I think that he would rather pretend the death of his brother isn’t that big of a deal than to have to think about something so sad and painful. So far in the book, Holden often tends to pretend to be unaffected by things that actually cause him pain, such as being kicked out of Pencey. After reading about Allie’s death, I started to think that he acts as if he doesn’t care about most things because he doesn’t want to have to face his pain. People in general often lie to themselves about their feelings because it causes them too much pain to accept the way they really feel, and I think this is what Holden does.
,On page 36 Holden says"I started to throw it.At a car that was parked across the street. But I changed my mind. The car looked so nice and white." This shows how Holden appreciates pretty undisturbed beauty, and how he can stop himself from messing it up, showing how he has self control. I also think that this shows us how Holden might not admit that its pretty, but he secretly might think it is.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you. It shows Holden in sort of a caring sensitive way? How he didn't want to disturb the charm or the car or the hydrant. He easily could have ruined the moment, but he didn't, he kept it in the perfect elegance of how he saw it. It shows Holden has a restraint on things he wants to keep. It keeps him from doing bad things. "God he was a nice kid, though." (pg.39) Maybe when Allie was around Holden was a better kid then what he was now. Maybe Allie was that restraint for Holden to be as nice and good as him. Then once he passed away, he lost the restraint and became a bad kid.
Delete"I started to throw it. At a car that was parked across the street. But I changed my mind. The car looked so nice and white. Then I started to throw it at a hydrant, but that looked too nice and white, too." (p.36)
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me think when I first read this why does he add in that the object he is throwing a snow ball at is nice and white? I had to read read that part I really did not get why he called it that. I thought maybe because he wished that he had something that looked that nice. I think that it is saying that he is a person who might be angry but also does care about something by saying that the things were too nice. But I also think this points to who he is as a person, that he can care about other things beside himself. Also that thoes were the first things he started to thought snowballs at but then decided to stop because he though that they were too nice.
"I went over and pulled it right out of his goddam hand. Then I tore it up. (pg.41)"
ReplyDeleteWhile reading this, one may just see this as a impulse of spite, and a notion to display of power, but I see it as the reaction of Holden from the disrespect from Stradlater. Holdan puts himself in a painful position, trying to remember a hard and painful memory, and then even masking this life event to satisfy, what Holden thinks, a moron of a roommate, for a simple writing assignment, and for it to be treated as an unsatisfactory assignment, will of course bring out this side of Holden. This line is also important because it reflects how Holden is about the topic of his family. The subject of his family is fragile and obviously not a topic he prefers to speak about. This is even proven in how the night Holden's brother, Allie died. The outrage that Holden goes threw, continues with him in many forms. he is reminded of this night from this baseball glove with poems his brother wrote on it, and the fact that Holden can make a full fist anymore. This line just show the true emotions to the topic of his family.
"So what I did, I wrote about my brother Allies baseball mitt...
ReplyDeleteHe's dead now. He got leukemia and died when we were up in Maine, on July 18, 1946. You would have liked him. (pg.39)
This quote stood out to me, because so far in the book, Holden never really seemed to care about anyone or anything, and bringing up his dead brother is an emotional topic for him. He seemed to be open with us about Allie though, unlike his phony parents or anyone else in his family. It makes me wonder if this is the reason why Holden rebels against school? because I remember when I was in 7th grade, and my dad was struggling with cancer, I was emotionally damaged and it took me a while to get back on my feet. Maybe as much as he says he "doesn't care," he is still holding onto the fact that he lost one of the most important things to him. This shows how tragedies in families can affect ones outcome in life.
i agree because for the first time in the book you see Holden talking about some one who he really cared about and showed how emotional he was when his brother died. It also shows that his brother's death hurt him so much that he can't hide it from us/ the reader.
Delete"I told him to go wash his own moron face -which was a pretty childish thing to say , but I was mad as hell." (45)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because this show a lot about Holden . This quote shows how Holden can be childish but looking back at it and saying dam it ,I should not have said this. So far as I read this book , every time he does some thing wrong or try to say something about him or when his describing something he looks at like other point of view . Like what he would have said or what he would have done. He always describe what's he around or what going on . I said this shows a lot about him because he like sort of wants the reader to see the way he thinks or he wants the reader to like have sort of to think about what they think.
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ReplyDelete"I broke all the windows in the the garage... I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddamn windows with my fist..." (pg.39)
ReplyDeleteI thought this quote was important because it shows how much Holden loved his brother. Holden's brother Allie died from leukemia in 1946, Holden said that Allie was a very nice and smart for example he teachers used to write his mother letters say how glad they were for having Allie in there class. Holden was probably really upset when he found out his brother was dead because he broke his hand. Holden probably loved his brother a lot and was really upset that he decided to break the window as a way to relieve his pain from his lost brother. Holden doubtlessly cared about Allie.
"So what I did, I wrote about my brother Allie's baseball mitt." (p. 38)
ReplyDeleteThis whole page/ section about his (writer/ narrator) connection to his brother Allie was a very significant part of understanding Holden as a person. However, I chose this line because it opened up this whole new thought of the reason why he chose to write about a baseball mitt. Stradlater asks for him to write a composition about anything that would be descriptive (usually things that are descriptive have lots of meaning in them) and he picks his brother's baseball mitt which is a very personal topic, because the fact that his brother died of leukemia, and liked to play baseball.
It made me think, that maybe this is the reason why he acts the way he does, not really caring about anything, and holding in his emotions, turning it into humor, just like Frank McCourt (as we've discussed in class). What if he chose this topic to write about to grab people's attention, especially Stradlater's because all he does is care about his self; to change their perspective of him? I wonder if he blames everything that has happened to him on himself (getting transferred to many schools) because he thinks of, what would Allie think of this, saying to himself "God, he was a nice kid, though," saying such positive stuff about his brother; and it seems like he's comparing him (Allie) to his self (right before he leaves). This leads me to the thought of when he says "I don't care if it's a sad good-by or a bad good-by, but when I leave a place I like to know I'm leaving it. If you don't, you feel even worse,"(p. 4) I think he was also referring to the departure of his brother (now that we know he's not only talking about leaving schools) but leaving his brother's side (not really, but I mean taking care of him and being his brother comes to an end) because he wasn't really expecting his brothers death (even though he knew he had leukemia) and on the page when he writes about his brother, and when he gave Stradlater the paper "pulled it right out of his goddam hand," and tore it up, it shows how he felt even worse out of his brother's death.
He's very observant, as the page follows up with him describing his brother Allie's red hair, and he had a different kind of red hair than others that did have it. I think to myself, he cared so much for his brother, mentioning times together (such as the dinner table) that made him happy, now makes him look like now, without his brother, he's alone.
This line really shows how emotional Holden gets and how he couldn't hold it in that much and just let it out before he left, and the moment he picked draws him back to all his memories he kept safe in his mind that wasn't meant to come out. It also brings a mysterious feel to it, so many thoughts and questions can come up, like Sherman Alexie's writing style (a line) at the end of a chapter in Indian Education.
"My hans still hurts me once in a while, when it rains and all, and i can't make a real fist any more- not a tight one, i mean- but outside of that i don't care much" (50-51)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stand out to me because Holden starts to open up, and then he realizes what he's doing so he shuts himself down and pretends as though he doesn't give a crap. this line is important because it shows how Holden has a wall surrounding him. He has gained this wall over the years due to the fact that he think that if he lets go everyone will think he's a wimpy phony, when in reality he already is one. This quote also makes me wonder whether or no Holden knows how he acts. i think he realize that he is stupid at times, but he doesn't think anyone cares so he steps past his nonsense. this line connects to my daily life because when someone first meets me i'm shy, then i start to like them, so i basically show them the worst of me to see if they can stand it. if they can i let them in past my crazy side, otherwise thats all they will ever get. in total everyone in the world has their layers and or walls, sometimes the break quickly while other times they done. Holden is just one of those people that takes a really long time to break into.
Taylor Alimari
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