Choose a line from the text and explain why
it stands out to you. Does this line shock you, confuse you, or seem
important in some way? Does it make you ask a question? Can you make a
connection to your life or another text? What is this line saying about
Holden, and then what is this line saying about people, or the world, in
general?Then, respond to another student's comment. Agree or disagree, but make sure that you add something new-- a new idea, a reference to another part of the book. Include textual evidence as you push the conversation forward.
"She was around forty or forty-five, I guess, but she was very good-looking. Women kill me. They really do. I don't mean I'm oversexed or anything like that -- although I am quite sexy."-page 70
ReplyDeleteI chose this line because I felt like it was the first moment where Holden sounded like a normal teenager, even in our age. He sounds real in the way that guys talk about girls and act perverted (I'm not saying every guy is, just some like Holden). In the first sentence "She was around forty or forty-five," it sorta came off to me like the only reason he was saying that was to protect himself from revealing what he really wanted, like how we talked about in class with the cap. Maybe that's only what I thought, but that's what I was getting from it.
I agree with you here. I think Holden emphasizes how much of an ordinary teenage boy he is in this line. He's simply being honest and pointing out what he thinks of Mrs. Morrow.
DeleteI agree with you, but I feel like throughout the novel we see a lot of Holden's teenage side. For example, when he uses slang or the way he speaks to adults/thinks and this is just another way to more progress the teenage feel. I feel like he wasn't saying it to hide himself but to show more about himself and be honest with the reader about what he is thinking at all times
DeleteI definitely agree with you. Even if it's somewhat stereotypical, seeing through the eyes of a teenage boy that has perverted thoughts makes Holden more life-like. You expect most boys to think of girls in a certain (sometimes perverted) way, and if what you expect from real life happens in a book, it can bring reality to something that doesn't exist.
DeleteLindsay, I agree with you a little about the slang but disagree about how you think he's being honest. With what Lucas is saying, Holden might as well be saying this to impress people by acting tough. I just think this is especially important because by now, us readers think we can see right through him, but he's still trying to challenge us.
Delete"I'd put on my red hunting cap when I was in the cab, just for the hell of it, but I took it off before I checked in. I didn't want to look like a screwball or something. Which is really ironic. I didn't know then that the goddam hotel was full of perverts and morons. Screwballs all over the place." (pp. 61)
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I have to say that in the beginning, this line was very confusing to me. I didn't understand why Holden would wear the hunting cap in the cab but not in the hotel. However, as I kept reading the rest of the paragraph, I understood that Holden is actually trying to be a normal teenager and trying to look like a decent person. He was checking into a hotel and he didn't want to "look like a screwball or something." As we discussed in class today, the red hunting cap was a protection for Holden, but it can also be that he sees it as his identity and who he really is as a person. In the fourth and fifth sentence "I didn't know then that the goddam hotel was full of perverts and morons. Screwballs all over the place." it showed me that Holden didn't want to be like other people and become a "screwball" per say, yet, he's still interested in girls, for example, "Women kill me. They really do. I don't mean I'm oversexed or anything like that--although I am quite sexy." (pp. 70). He acts like he's not a "screwball himself", but in my opinion, he tries to act decent, but he might not be.
Tomas Benincasa
DeleteI both agree and disagree.
One one side, I think he does try to be a normal teenager, and he doesn't want to be isolated and lonely, he just acts like that to seem tough, and not to have an emotional breakdown like he did the night Allie died. I think that he wants to act normal, especially after he began doing psychoanalysis and had someone so close to him died so tragically.
On the other hand, I think that this quote doesn't show him trying to conform, but rather him trying to hide a side of himself that he is insecure about. I think that this quote shows us is how Holden is actually insecure and doesn't want to seem like the "nut case" he was said to be (which i guess has an element of conformity).
Tomas Benincasa Reade
ReplyDelete"My ears where nice and warm, though. The hat I bought had earlaps in it, so i put them on - I didn't give a damn how I looked." Page 53
I think that this quote touches on two key elements of Holden's persona. Firstly, I think it is an excellent example of how he hides his emotions, and pretends to be strong while being very cool. Earlier in the book, Holden mentions how he likes the way he looked in the hat, and how the hat looked a bit "corny". I think that later on in the book, he noticed how he was being a hypocrite by saying that he likes the corny look of his hat, even though he constantly complains about phonies, fakes, and sell-outs (one example being his brother, and how he is being fake by joining the movie business to make money). I think that this is clearly shown when he says that "I don't give a damn about how I looked." I also think that he shows us that the hat is his way of protection, and that he needs something to protect himself. In class, we talked about how the hat both literally and figuratively protects him from life. I think that especially after Allie died, and after Stradlater almost insulted his brother (by talking badly a composition about Allie) he is in a sensitive place, and is feeling a bit insecure. I think that he lets a bit of his emotion out when he says that "It had earlaps in them, so i put them on." because he shows that he likes to have something protect him from the cold. And even though this quote can be interpreted very literally, I think it has a very symbolic meaning. I think that the cold symbolized the pain and bitterness of life, and that the earlaps represented the protection he had from it. In addition, I think he realizes what he said and gave away, and uses the second sentence to seem tough rather than sensitive.
I found that this quote shows, once again, how Holden constantly act "macho" and pretends not to be sensitive. I thought that that was strange because one of the things that he loved so much about Allie way how caring and sensitive he was. If he admires Allie, then why does he try to hide how sensitive he is, rather than embrace the nicer more caring side of himself?
I find your point of view interesting. It is true that everyone just wants to be heard and have something there protecting and helping them go on. Also, for the last part, maybe he thinks that he couldn't live up to how Allie was? It is obvious that Holden does care about some things. But he also doesn't say many good things about himself and to him, Allie was almost perfect. He cares about Jane, Allie and he even sounds like he feels bad for Ackley. We talked about how maybe he aspires to be like Allie. But Allie seemed to be very easy going. Holden seems more like the average misunderstood teen just trying to find out how life works. It might just not be as easy for him to show his softer side when he's surrounded by fakes and phonies who might not be so nice to him.
Delete"i said "You know those ducks in that lagoon right near Central Park South? That little lake? By any chance, do you happen to know where they go, the ducks, when it all gets frozen over? Do you happen to know, by any chance?" I realized it was only one chance in a million. (60)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because this just seemed like a very Holden thing to say. Throughout the book you get to see into his mind and read everything he is thinking. He is a very curious person and sees the world through a unique lense. This quote also stood out to me because he isn't only talking about ducks, I think as we progress in the book the ducks will become a really important symbol.
I agree with you Lindsey, I think Holden is a unique person and like you said sees the world through a unique lens, and he expresses that by asking where the ducks go in the winter.
DeleteI agree with your statement on how Holden views the world from a very unique lense, but the part I agree with the most is about how the ducks will become important later in the book. Why else would Ms. Kauffman put a picture of ducks on the blog.
DeleteI agree that the ducks will become an important symbol, I sort of think that the ducks might represent Holden I am probably way off and wrong. I think that because the pond might represent Pencey, and when the pond when its frozen is representing the problems like Holden failing his class, and the ducks leaving would represent Holden because he is leaving and Pencey, because of the problem.
Delete"One of those stories with a lot of phony, lean-jawed guys named David in it, and a lot of phony girls named Linda or Marcia that are always lighting all the goddam Davids' pipes for them." (53)
ReplyDeleteThis line undoubtedly stood out to me because it shows us just how critical Holden is of what the media and stories have to offer. It reveals yet another aspect of his intriguing personality. I think everyone tends to criticize actors, movies and books just as Holden does. It is completely natural to feel a certain way about something. This is why I think this line is very interesting and relatable.
I agree with you, Abby. When I read this quote, I felt the same way you did. I think this is relatable to how his brother, D.B., is in the movie business and he sees him as a "prostitute." He has a special dislike for actors, movies, and books. Holden is very critical about the movies and would assume that the snobby actors and actresses names would be Linda, Marcia, or David.
Delete"Every time I thought about it, I felt like jumping out the window."
ReplyDelete-Page 62
I really like this quote because I think it's not only relatable to my life, but I think people in general can relate to this. Most of the time get frustrated because I'm upset (in this case because Stradlater goes out with a girl that Holden might want to just keep--the thought of-- to himself) but because I'm annoyed, or pestered. During homework sometimes, especially when I finish my homework I get to do something fun, I get very frustrated, and want to explode, and maybe jump out a window. Or when someone gets on my nerves a lot. I don't mean kill myself by jumping out of a window, I would just want to alleviate all the frustration pent up inside, and jumping out of a window sometimes feels something that would help. I think it's important to have a lot of relatable moments in a memoir (especially when it's not real) because it makes the memoir come to life more. I feel like Holden's a real person when he shares an attribute with me. Whether it's a serious attribute, or something small, like how you feel when something get's under your skin. It establishes a connection.
I'm not sure if I agree or disagree but whenever I feel like jumping out of a window is because I'm annoyed. Like if someone wouldn't shut up or was bothering me, to escape I'd jump out of a window. I can't find the quote you have up there in my book because we have different size books and all but maybe he's just annoyed and not frustrated at all. But then again if you're annoyed aren't you a little frustrated also? I'm probably not making sense but it's just a thought.
Delete"Then I really started chucking the old crap around" (p.56)
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me because he talks about lying often. Holden lies for quite a few reasons. For one, it's his way of being polite. In this conversation he has, he says, "you take somebody's mother, all they want to hear about is what a hot-shot their son is." (p.56). Knowing that's what mothers want to hear, he says it. Same with his teacher: "You don't have to think too hard when you talk to a teacher." (p.13). because Holden just tells Mr. Spencer what he wants to hear. Also, he seems to use it to make himself seem more interesting. When he first approaches the subject about lying often, he states, "If I'm on my way to go to the store [...] I'm liable to say I'm going to the opera." This suggests that he also lies to make himself 'perfect in the eyes of others'. Going back to the conversation with the mom, he uses lies to make her happy about her son and to make himself sound almost 'cooler'. But he does say, two pages later, that "I was right away sorry" (p.58) after he told another lie. Maybe he's so used to lying that he can't stop even if he wants to. This suggests he wants to be more truthful but it's hard because he feels in a way obliged to lie to make others and himself feel better.
I sort of disagree with you when he said he's lying just to make his mother and teacher interested. In class, we've sort of established how he's got this independent streak where he doesn't care what people think, even if he's trying to impress them. Maybe he could change somewhere in the book, but I doubt on the 58th page.
DeleteI agree with you, and I think that Holden also lies for another reason. I think he lies to protect himself as well, so he doesn't have to speak about the truth and pain in his life. The only moment anyone has come close to knowing about Holden's life was when Stradlater was reading and sort of insulting Holden's composition on Allie's baseball glove, and Holden ripped the composition up when Stradlater told him it wasn't what he wanted. He obviously is very sensitive about his personal life, and I think that's one of the reasons he constantly lies.
Delete“I hate saying corny things… But when I’m with someone that’s corny, I always act corny too.” (60)
ReplyDeleteThis line stands out to me because it seems like this is just another way Holden tries to hide who he is. He hides himself by lying to people around about minuscule things for no apparent reason. He hides himself behind a hat as if to protect himself. He’s always labeling people around with words like ‘corny’ and ‘phony’ and I think he only does that because he doesn’t know who he is. I think he thinks if he labels everyone then he’ll find out who he is. Even though Holden is trying to hide who he is that doesn’t mean he knows what he’s hiding. He says “I always act corny” maybe he only does that because he doesn’t know what to do in that situation, which is strange because to me Holden come off as a very confident character. He says “I hate saying corny things” Why would you say corny things if you hate it? Why does he want to fit in? Holden is really confusing because sometimes he’ll go along with what everyone is doing, and then other times it’s like he doesn’t care. When he lost the fencing equipment I think if he cared enough, if he wanted to be accepted he would have paid more attention and wouldn't have lost the equipment. Holden is a very confusing character and I hope by the end of the book we will understand him better.
I agree with your point. But I also think that this quote is another example of how contradicting Holden is and how much of a phony he is. I mean he says he hates saying corny things but he acts corny when he's with someone corny. Sounds pretty fake if you ask me. But your thoughts on how he's a very confusing character is definitely something agree with. As we get deeper into the book, I noticed how Holden isn't someone to easily understand right away, but are we not all like that? It doesn't take 2.4 seconds to get to know someone, but weeks, months, even years to finally get used to how someone acts, reacts, and how they are truly.
Delete"The first thing I did when I got off at Penn Station, I went into this phone booth. I felt like giving somebody a buzz ... I couldn't think of anybody to call up," (59).
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because I think it tells us something important about Holden as a person. On the outside he seems like he relies on no one but himself, but I think he is actually quite lonely. He has been thrown out of school again and again, and that makes it a lot harder to make any real friends. His brother Allie, who Holden really loved, died at a young age, and Holden's other brother D.B. is in Hollywood making movies, so Holden doesn't have many people in his life he can really talk to. Now that Holden is all alone in New York, that loneliness is starting to get to him, and he wants some company. You can see how lonely he gets when he wants to call someone up, and how he calls up Faith Cavendish, a girl he doesn't know, to go out for some cocktails. He also asked the driver of the cab he was in if he wanted to go out for a drink. Holden seems to be getting desperate for company, but I don't think he wants to admit that.
I totally agree with you. Holden doesnt really want to show the love and affection he had put into his brother Allie. I think because of a fear of losing that one person he had loved so much. I also feel like Holden is going through some kind of emotional depression. Kicked out of school, no friends ,and no actually family that he mentions that he loves. If many were in his shoes most people would have probably be in a worse situation.
DeleteI strongly agree with you, but I also think that he feels that he has no one to depend on. Like for example, when he is in Ackley’s room and he hears Stradlater come back and Stradlater doesn’t even look to see if he is in the room (49-50). This affects Holden more than he lets on because he thought Stradlater was his friend and that he really cared about him, even though they just had a little tiff. He also felt that Ackley out all people would at least talk to him or entertain him when he came to his room, but instead Ackley kept telling him to shut up and be quiet(48,50). Then when he asked Ackley about the church thing and Ackley’s negative response (50) really got Holden even more down and lonely which, made him feel like no one was there for him so he left in the end.
DeleteI completely agree with this post and all the comments. I think that after Allie's death, and different experiences with different people throughout the book, Holden has developed trust issues. Holden probably doesn't want to call anyone up at this phone booth because he doesn't think he can trust and rely on these people. In a way this passage is an example of Holden's personality being described as independent.
Delete"Then I started reading this Timetable I had in my pocket. Just to stop lying. Once i get started,I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours." (58)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it just really proves how much of a liar Holden can be around other people. I really find this quote not that shocking based on his previous reputation as a liar; however,I feel like this quote has a great significance on how Holden portrays himself as. I feel like this quote doesn't necessarily says he is a great skillful liar but more along the lines of him being a terrible liar and cant stop lying after he says one lie. Because of this quote it really made me think, is Holden really a skillful great liar that he calls himself or is he just saying this and most of the people he lies to can actually tell if he is lying or not. I believe that he isn't a great liar, but cant stop lying once he starts; however, there may be a reason why Holden cant stop lying.
I actually chose this same quote, but I don't really agree with Holden being a "great liar". I personally think that Holden is only giving the impression of being a liar to try to be "tough", and to give the impression that he really doesn't care about what people think.
Delete"Sensitive. That killed me. That guy Morrow was as sensitive as a goddamn toilet seat." (55) This stands out to me because it shows how Holden is showing how he is a teenager and how they are always thinking to themselves about what they really think, but not saying it. If he had said that to the guys mom she would have been very upset. This line also spoke to me because it shows me how Holden thinks of his classmates and what kind of a person they are and whether or not he likes them.
ReplyDeleteI agree in the sense of this is how teenagers express themselves, not at all. I feel that this opens up the idea of phonies and being a teenager as well. When reading this I saw this as phony moves, changing your name, not saying what you feel, constantly lying, but then again it can also be seen as just being a teenager. There are no true outlines on which is which and what is the criteria of being a phony or just being a teenager. the only judgment we get to see is by Holden's perspective. This gets me thinking that maybe Holden might be changing his rules a little. when he does all these "phony" moves he might just label as being a teenager, but when it's other people, they must be phonies.
Delete“Then I started shooting the old crap around a little bit” (55).
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because Holden said one thing and then ended up doing another thing. For example, he says he didn’t like Ernest because he was a “bastard” and because he would go around hitting people with wet towels on their but. Then he does something completely different, after a while when he starts talking to Ernest’s mother he starts “shooting the old crap” or saying nice things about Ernest to his mother, building up Ernest’s image to his mother. The thing that confuses me about Holden is that he would go and say one thing and think or do another. I guess in the real world that’s how a lot of people are they say something but will do something that contradicts what they say or they say something and don’t back it up with what really matters, which is actions.
I strongly agree with you. I feel like Holdens way to cope with things, is by lying. To make himself feel better. I think he lied to Ernests mom because he fancied her, wanted to seem mature and wanted sympathy. I also think, thats all Holden knows to do when it comes to surviving on his own. Throughout the book, hes been lying the whole time at Pency, which is boarding school. Hes been away from his family, friends and doesnt know better. He "shoots the crap" to seem cool, and maybe try to fit in. Holden never really had a place to feel normal. Or himself. Maybe lying is the only thing he knows now.
DeleteI agree with your idea, I also think its confusing how Holden would go and say one thing and think or do another. I think that even though he hates phonies he is one. He's lying to the mother just to make her feel happy, and that even though it might be a nice thing to do, is phony. I also agree with your idea of how the quote relates to the real world. I think a lot of people act like Holden does, I also think they can be hypocritical.
Delete"The first thing I did when I got off at Pencey station, I went to this phone booth. I felt like giving somebody a buzz. I left my bags right outside the booth so that I could watch them, but as soon as I was inside, I couldn't think of anybody to call up." (59)
ReplyDelete"I went to the phone booth" tells me that Holden shows off such a character that is all about independence, keeping a calm vibe, and overall very open and confident but this quote kind of reveals that although he claims a lot of people are phonies and he seems like someone who would enjoy being isolated, I feel like this quote is the opposite. I would just expect him to be on his way home or maybe to a hotel, but not the phone booth. I mean, who would he have to call? He said so himself he couldn't think of anybody to call up, so why bother? His parents are probably having their heads exploding and this is when we're introduced to his little sister. It seems like she's one of the few, keep in mind that it's a small amount, that Holden doesn't mind, but he can't even call her because of his parents. Then he suggests he calls Jane, which I find completely random. To me, it seems like Holden is honestly lonely and that's why his perspective on life is in such a pessimistic way. It's not a bad thing, but more of something that happens a lot in life.
"Then I started reading this time table I had in my pocket. Just to stop lying. Once I get started, I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours." (pg.58)
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because it really stood out to me in these two chapters. It really shows the kind of person Holden is and how hypocritical he can be. He states in the book multiple times, how he hates "phony" people, and is only truthful. But then goes and lies to Ernests mom. about his name, about her son, who he is as a person, and makes up a story about a tumor. It confuses me and shocks me a lot. Where he states: "Then I started reading this time table I had in my pocket. Just to stop lying."
The fact that he had to "stop himself" from lying. It shows he's just as phony as the others. It makes me wonder why he does it so often? Doesnt he get caught in his lies? Also, does it make him feel like someone hes not? He's always putting himself down, saying hes not good enough, maybe by lying so often, and giving people wrong impressions of him, makes him feel like he might actually be a good kid.
Then where he says "I could go on for hours" shows he has no self control over it, and maybe even enjoys lying. I think Holden is searching for sympathy when hes lying. He never has anyone to talk to, and doesnt have friends or Allie in his life anymore. Lying might be a way to cope with his emotions.
This quote stood out to me as well. It definitely shows that he has no control over himself when he starts lying, which is very dangerous. However, I am not really seeing a clear and distinct connection between him lying a lot, and him being a phony and a hypocrite. Maybe we can use the further development in the book of Holden's lying problem to infer that he is creating a fake persona which he feels more comfortable in, with him 'shooting the crap' and wearing his hunting cap. The only thing is, I don't recall him accusing people of being phonies because they lie a lot. Him being a hypocrite and him lying a lot are both two things evident in the text, but i think that saying the fact that he has to stop himself from lying makes him a phony doesn't make very much sense.
DeleteThis quote also stood out to me, and I agree with you that Holden is very hypocritical when he complains about phonies and then talks about his extreme habit of lying. I also agree that lying might be a way for him to cope with his emotions. I think part of why he has a tendency to lie is to take attention off of what is true, because his real life is much more painful to think about. He creates these elaborate stories in order to take his mind off of his loneliness and depression. When he is on the train with Ernest Morrow’s mother, he lies about both himself and her son, and I think this was because he was depressed about having to leave Pencey, and so he was trying to distract himself, and he was maybe even taking out some of his loneliness on Ernest Morrow and his mother.
DeleteI also thought that this was a very interesting quote, I agree that ti shows how hypocritical Holden is and that hes always complain about phonies while, he himself is acting like a "phony" too, however I would like to connect this quote to something that Holden said earlier, it was the first time he really talked abut himself as a liar, he said he was really good at it, we had a class discussion about this and weather we should believe him or not, because for all we know he's lying, so we found lots of proof that Holden was lying about being good at lying, however that was before we saw him in action, in this part of the book he's lying to Ernest's mother, and in my opinion, he's doing a very good job with it, is Holden actually a better liar than we thought he is?
Delete“So I ended up not calling anybody” (pg. 59)
ReplyDeleteThis quote was interesting to me because it showed how alone Holden was. He came to New York in the middle of the night and couldn't even ask his parents or any family members to pick him up. He didn't even have any friends he thought he could talk to either. This quote shows how disconnected he is from everyone and how he’s a loner. He doesn't have a good relationship with anyone it seems because he ends up calling no one and going to a hotel. He went through at least six different people that he contemplated calling but he didn't have a good enough relationship with any of them. He’s so alone that later he even calls up a girl he met once and invites her to get cocktails. He even invites his taxi driver too. I think this quote shows how truly isolated he is from his family and friends and I think deep inside it hurts him to not be able to call anyone.
I totally agree with this statement because Holden is a loner, but he doesn’t know it. He thinks not being able to call anyone is normal, and he thinks that if he did call someone that would make him annoying and like we discussed in class he wants to perceived as tough. Also I believe that due to Allie’s death, he never has been able to get close to anyone because he’s afraid of losing people, so he keeps himself at a distance. Also for some apparent reason Holden thinks basically everyone he knows is a phony, but is not known why yet. I think that because everyone is a phony to him he doesn’t have the balls to keep his mouth shut if someone makes the slightest phony comment, which also plays into him not calling anyone.
Delete“The first thing I did when I got off at Penn Station, I went into this phone booth. I felt like giving someone a buzz,” (p. 59).
ReplyDeleteWhile reading, this quote stood out to me because it shows how Holden isn’t necessarily as tough as he usually tries to portray. The fact that the first thing he does after getting off the train from Pencey is to try to call someone shows that he feels lonely and wants human interaction. I think he’s probably depressed about his fight with Stradlater and about having to leave Pencey. When he says that he first looked for a pay phone, he clearly is not out-right expressing his feelings, but you are able to infer that he is lonely, and that he wants to talk to someone to comfort him. Even though Holden has said to the reader in the past that he’s in a bad mood or he’s feeling depressed, he never really expresses his feelings to the full extent, and usually talks very causally about things that actually hurt him on the inside. For example, like we discussed in class, when he talks about the death of his little brother Allie, he simply writes, “he’s dead now,” and does not talk about his thoughts and feelings. In this quote, he isn’t expressing his thoughts or feelings, but you are seeing how even though he might not want to show it, he is affected by having to leave Pencey, and he isn’t as aloof and unemotional as pretends to be.
I agree that he tries to act tougher than he actually is inside. I think that is an ego thing, and he feels like he has to hold an standard for himself, so even if he has failed at everything else, he could still appear strong. I think that he tried to be somebody he's not, and I think that this appearance he's trying to hold is getting harder to keep, the more difficult the obstacles in life get.
DeleteI agree with both of your points. When I read about Holden being someone that he is not, I get the sense that for some reason he feels like he has an obligation of hiding his emotions and not being who he wants to be. I'm curious as to what other people think about Holden keeping in his emotions, and if he can continue to live like this.
DeleteI strongly agree with you Clara, in the book so far Holden "cloaks" his true feelings by making this character up who is so tough, but really on the inside he is very emotional. For example the quote you used on page 59, “The first thing I did when I got off at Penn Station, I went into this phone booth. I felt like giving someone a buzz." This is only kind of showing Holden's "true form". Yet like you said the first thing he does is go find a pay phone, this isn't completely true yet he is hinting that he is lonely. So far in this book Holden has hidden his feelings but every here and then he hints his true feelings.
Delete-Ethan Richard Burda I
"She wouldn't've cared if I'd woke her up, but she wouldn't have cared if I'd woke her up, but the trouble was, she wouldn't've been the one to answer the phone. My parents would have been the ones. So that was out." (pg.59)
ReplyDeleteI though this quote really stood out to me because its showing Holden avoiding talking to his parents. In the part of the quote when he says "she wouldn't've been the one to answer the phone. My parents would have been the ones." It shows Holden doesn't really want to talk to his parents. I think he afraid that his parents will be really disappointed in him, because this wasn't the first school he was kicked out of, and he is failing all his classes but english. He might feel that his parents expect more because his older brother D.B. is in Hollywood for writing and his younger brother who passed away was really intelligent and his teacher were glad to have him in his class. So Holden could have a feeling that his parents would be disappointed in him.
I agree that he doesn't want to talk to his parents, but I don;t really think it's because of him getting kicked out of school. I think that would also be a reason, but i think the main reason would be because he doesn't have a great relationship with his parents. On the first page of the book he had stated that they were "phonies", and we know that he doesn't like phonies. He also talked about his lousy childhood, and how they weren't the best year so his life. I think that he just doesn't like associating himself with his parents because he feels like they are in a way annoying.
Delete"Then I started reading this timetable I had in my pocket. Just to stop lying. Once I get started,I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours." Page 58
ReplyDeleteIn this quote, I feel like Holden is trying to emphasize how much of a liar he thinks he is. It sounds like Holden is full of himself, because he is saying that he can lie for hours, but only if he feels like it. He may be able to lie for hours, but in a way it sounds like he is bragging when he talks about how well he can lie (throughout the book). Holden, I think, wants to believe that he is a great liar, maybe he is lying by saying he is a liar, but I honestly believe that he isn't, because of how much he brags about it; most braggers are full of themselves anyway. Holden can lie if the opportunity comes, like when he was having a conversation with Ernie's mom; lying about his name, and about Ernie. What I personally think is, Holden isn't a huge liar, because he is always trying to give off the impression of being a liar. It really doesn't add up to me.
Aw man! I wanted to do this one! But I do agree with you Frank. And adding on, I feel like he also lies, not only to brag and be full of himself but to also grab peoples attention and to give a good impression of himself. Some of his lies make people feel sorry for him, for example after Holden offered Ernie's mother a cigarette and to have a cocktail with him (trying to "talk" to the woman, p. 54-58) I think that the mother felt odd and had a feeling that maybe Holden was a little much for his age, asking questions like "Dear, are you aloud to order drinks?" (p. 57), the lady still trying to be polite. However, Holden lies about being kicked out of school; saying he had an operation for his tumor in his brain, and she gave him a immediate surprised reaction. And in some cases, I feel he does lie to people like that to get good impressions from them, because he is usually mistreated, and he doesn't like that feeling of being alone, when he left his fencing gear in the train station, his whole team turned against him, calling him an idiot. It made him feel insecure, to not trust anyone and alone, feeling like no one really cares about him. My opinion can be a possibility, that some of his ruthless lies affect his life in a way, but I definitely agree with the idea that he wants everyone to think he's a great liar, which is not a good thing.
DeleteI strongly agree with you Asia. (And sorry for taking the quote).
Deletei agree because a good liar will never state that he's a liar. it also doesn't add up because why would anybody be bragging about being a good liar and talk about how they can lie for hours if they want to. One last point is that a good liar will lie most of the time because he's use to it and he can't stop lying. Even though if he wanted to he can't because he's use to lie so much that its hard for him to stop.
Delete"I was beginning to feel sort of sorry I'd told her my name was Rudolf Schmidt."(56)
ReplyDeleteThis Quote stood out to me because it shows that Holden feels bad about lying. For example on page 16 in the book Holden stated that "I'M THE MOST terrific liar you ever saw in your life" and from this quote we can get a sense that he is not ashamed from being a liar and has no problem lying to someone. So for him to say that he felt sorry about lying to someone says something about him. One of the things is that he doesn't like to lie to someone who he likes. Also he regrets lying to person that he just met and later on he ends up liking that person.
"Boy I really fouled that up I should've made it for cocktails or something." (66)
ReplyDeleteThis last line of the 9th chapter really stood out to me, because it shows that he sets standards for himself. I feel like since Holden hasn't really succeeded (since he has been kicked out of numerous schools) in the academic part of his life, he feels like he should succeed easily in the "woman" part of his life. I think that he feels that he let himself down. In the quote he states, "I should've made it for cocktails or something." This is showing that he feels really bad about himself, and can't even get a "hooker" to get with him, never the less get good grades in school. At this point in his life I think he's feeling like a failure, and that he can do nothing about it. Another line in the book that connects to this quote is "The first thing I did when I got off at Penn Station, I went into this phone booth. I felt like giving somebody a buzz...I couldn't think of anybody to call up." (59) He is trying to find somebody to call, just to talk to about what he's going through, and he can't seem to find one person that he can call and feel safe and have a normal conversation with. He doesn't seem to have one "friend" or person that he's really comfortable around. I can connect this to the book "Water for Elephants", because at first Jacob has nobody to talk to or be with and he's all alone, with no accomplishments to show for himself. Unlike Holden, he makes friends and pursues something that he loves to do with people that he really enjoys spending time with. I hope that throughout the book Holden puts himself together and starts making friends and doing something that he really likes doing. All in all I think that Holden portrays himself as a failure, and sets standards for himself that he can no longer seem to hold.
I definitly agree with you in the sense that Holden doesn't put himself out there to try and make friends. Holden puts himself down so often and thinks of himself as a failure that he doesn't think that anyone else will like him either. I think that he is also afraid that no one will like him and the embarrassment he will face if that is so. So he tries to escape all this by pretending not to care and not trying.
Delete“You know those ducks in the lagoon right near Central Park South? That little lake? By any chance, do you happen to know where they go, the ducks, when it gets all frozen over? Do you happen to know, by any chance?” (78)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stands out to me because it shows how curious Holden is about life and his surroundings. It also shows how he plays such close attention to the details within life. However, that was already learned through previous chapters due to the fact that he goes on and on and on about the same topic for pages. Not only that, but I believe that it goes to show how lonely Holden is. The reason why I think this is because you never hear anyone else in the book mention the ducks and where they go over the winter, it is only Holden. Also ducks aren’t exactly an important part to human life. Plus, Holden also is different from everyone else because he is obsessed with dying and living. He pretends to not care about anything while in reality he truly does. However he hides it because he doesn’t want anyone to see what an emotional mess he truly is inside because he’s afraid that if they did, then that would lead them to believe that he’s a phony himself. When in reality it is the truth, thus making him hypocritical. In total this line actually confuses me because it is so repetitive and it makes no sense that he randomly thought of the ducks, when they don’t seem to be a big part of his life in any sort of way…yet? The way I can relate to this quote is that I myself always say things randomly/out of the blue, and I always seem to be asking far fetched questions that make people think I’m irregular. The same way that the taxi driver asked Holden if he was joking, while Holden was being a hundred percent serious.
"when I'm with somebody that's corny, I always act corny too." (pp 60)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me because I realized that it was Holden justifying the fact that he was acting corny. His personal views obviously make him avoid acting at all corny, or phony, however, we can see that he does things like this a lot, and then simply tries to explain to the reader that its not of his own accord that he is acting phony, but rather the situation called for it. It seems he is trying not to admit to himself that he finds comfort in the corniness. He is constantly saying or doing so called corny things, and then making excuses that are supposed to explain the fact that he just did something corny. In his own eyes, he has a reputation and image that he must maintain in which he is not corny, but we can see him subconsciously constantly slipping up and doing corny things. An example is that right before this quote when he described himself as incognito, he then had to explain himself, and that he was only doing it because the cab driver was corny, and you have to act that way around corny people. Even though he is making excuses we can see that he gets comfort out of these corny things like his hunting cap, because he keeps coming back to them in times of stress.
I have this tiny little tumor on the brain...Then I started reading this timetable I had in my pocket. Just to stop lying. Once I get started,I can go on for hours if I feel like it. (Page 58)
ReplyDeleteIn this quote I think that it is emphasized that Holden is a phony. I think this is because so many other times in the book he calls people or ideas phonies because he thinks they are but in reality he is because many of the things he says are fake. When he says, "Once I get started I can go on for hours" I think this really shows the extent of his problem. I understand that maybe this quote could show how Holden over exaggerates situations, but here I think that he really addresses his lying problem. I also think that he addresses it because earlier in the book on page 16 he says "Im the most terrific liar you'll see. It's terrible.". Here you see that he acknowledges himself being a liar, and how he is terrific at it. However I also think this quote shows the terrible side of it too because in a way it is wrong for Holden to be lying about something very serious and terrible such as a tumor especially since his brother died from a medical situation. I think it shows another way he could be a phony because one day he is smashing windows because of his brothers death and the next he's lying about a similar situation, so you can not really see the real emotions of Holden. I'm not saying that he treats his brother's death as a joke, but I do think that he is crossing the line in a sense.
I do have to agree with you in a sense, Jacob. Maybe Holden really is a phony, and is a "biased" speaker to have that shares the same opinion as Holden. Though, we still do not know what Holden's definition of Phony mean? Does phony necessarily mean you lie a lot? In a sense, that peice doesn't really provide support for the idea that Holden is a phony, because he was merely lying to Ernie's mom to get a "kick" or to just kind of like flatter her, otherwise, crumby son. Maybe, Holden has a compulsive disorder to lie, and is resenting this "phony" part of his personality, like the many parts he tries to stick deep down under his soul. Therefore, we cannot completely prove or disprove the idea that Holden is a phony without taking into account all the factors that put Holden into certain positions were he is portrayed at being, phony-ish? That is why I disagree with your statement.
Delete" After a while I sat down on a chair and smoked a couple of cigarettes. I was feeling pretty horny. I have to admit it." (pg 63)
ReplyDeleteThis line stood out to me in a very different flux of emotions and opinions about Holden. Like my prior post, i had described that Holden hadn't explored his eexuality as much as he thought he did. I saw many signs of insecurity and "open-mindedness" when it came to Holden's sexuality. But, in these two very specific chapters, i can see that Holden is trying to consciously secure his opinion on girls by calling the "prostitute". Though, I believe all of it was a complete front. It might seem like Holden is subconsciously aware of his opinion towards Stradlater and of his flexibilty towards who he is attracted to, and these two paragraphs dont raise as much questions as the last one did in my head, simply reassured me of the fact that Holden is, like many other Teenagers, are still looking for themselves. This quote also shocked me in a sense. Holden states that he is 17, but has the naiveness of a pre teen or someone substantially younger than him, so when he says that he is horny, it shocked me because, a 11 year old shouldn't really be sure or confident enough to call a prostitute over and commit....... sexual activities. Therefore, this line has meaning to my perspective.
”Rudolf Schmidt”, I told her. I didn’t feel like telling her my whole life story.
ReplyDelete(Page 54)
I know Holden says that he didn’t tell the woman his name because he didn’t want to tell her all about himself, but really I think that Holden didn’t tell her his name because he was sort of embarrassed, because who asks for someone’s life story after just hearing their name anyway? I think that Holden does this because he is afraid that people will be disappointed in him. Like on page 56, Holden tells the woman on the train that his bloody nose was from an innocent snowball, I think he told her this because he thought that she would think less of him if he told her it was actually from a fight. We see this happening again on page 58 when he tells the woman that he is going home early for an operation. I believe that he said this, not because he is a pathological liar, but because he is disappointed in himself for getting kicked out of school. Holden doesn’t like to show his emotions, but by creating an alter ego for himself, I think he is trying to forget, or for just one minute, try to be someone he is not and try to have at least one person, even if it’s a random lady on the train, to be proud and believe in him.
"Then I started reading this Timetable I had in my pocket. Just to stop lying. Once I get started, I can go on for hours if i feel like it.No kidding. Hours." (P.58) I picked this line because is said's about him that he knows he lies but does not know how to stop in a way. He said's "Just to stop lying." Thus saying that he knows that he is lying to him self and to other people and wants to stop but does not know how. But it also said's " Once I get started, I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours." He knows that he can hold out a lie for a wile with out anyone saying anything. He is also saying it in a way like there is no real problem to what he is doing but he knows he wants to stop.
ReplyDelete“I hate saying corny things… But when I’m with someone that’s corny, I always act corny too.” (60)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of two reasons. One, because of the truthfullness if has to this day, and becuase I think it reveals a lot about how Holden feels about himself.
The reason I this quote stands out to me because of its truthfulness to our lives as teenagers. I believe that what your peers do can effect you in a big way, for example, if your friends are going to a place where you shouldn't go, you might go anyway just because your friends are going. It takes a strong person to say no to all of your friends.
The other reason this quote stood out to me because he basically calls himself a phony, and throughout the book he talks about how he hates phonies, I think that Holden actually hates phonies because he hates himself. If Holden is calling himself a phony, and hates phonies at the same time, either that is a giant contridction or he hates himself, which would explain his very low self-esteem.
This is what I got from this line of the book.
"I gave her a good look. She didn't look like any dope to me. She looked like she might have a pretty good idea what a bastard she was the mother of." (55). This line really stood out to me because I feel like like Holden in a way makes a connection with this woman on the train to New York. Holden often has seemed to be lying in this book either to himself or to the reader or to characters in the story. He even admits that he thinks he is "the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life" (16). When the woman gets on the train and sits next to Holden and she discovers he is from Pency, they start to have a conversation. When the woman asks why Holden is going home, he lies and says: "I have to have this operation" (55). He probably lies about this because he is ashamed of getting kicked out of Pency.
ReplyDeleteThe reason the woman knew Pency, was because her son Ernest was at the school. Holden knew Ernest well, and claimed that: "Her son was doubtless the biggest bastard that ever went to Pency, in the whole crumby history of the school." (54). However the woman says that he is very sensitive and that he doesn't always fit in. This is more or less a lie. Holden thinks that she lied because she was ashamed of how her son behaved generally. This is why I think the woman and Holden make a connection.
"The only reason I didn't do it was because I wasn't in the mood. If you're not in the mood, you can't do that stuff right." (p. 63)
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read this, I thought, he was kind of being a little know it all with the "being able to lie for hours." What I think, is that he really does want people (us as the audience) to know him as a magnificent liar; he wants to impress people with these lies. He brags and over exaggerates -----> ( the part that he says "... Just to stop lying. Once I get started I can go on for hours if I feel like it. No kidding. Hours.") He acts like someone he's not, a good liar. He lies about the most outrageous things, even lying about having a tumor, which is quite dangerous and something you shouldn't joke, or pretend to have. This lead to the thought, that he's a phony, because he calls other people phonies for being something their not, when he tries to impress (get attention, see more of my response on my reply on Frank's post) people with his lies and says he is a good liar, when he's actually a terrible one, leading on to he's a phony and a hypocrite. I don't think that he wasn't in the mood to lie and call someone to talk to, I just think he thought it was enough lies for the day, as he says "...Just stop lying." And if he were in the mood, he probably didn't have the guts to call up a girl and say it was her uncle, that her aunt died, because he already had a "hot lie" as he calls it about his tumor, and he was probably stressed from his last few days at Pencey. And to be honest, I think Holden is a confused kid, I don't get him myself. I feel he just lets his life go down, when he's the only one that can save it and become a better person with a less lonely/ depressing life, but he feels its easier to lie, and maybe because he hides his emotions that eats him on the inside, and feels that he's not in the mood. When he has a problem, he runs away from it, instead of going through it, which he needs to realize before things get worse for him.
I agree with you . I do think he does try to impress people with his lies . He does uses lies to like give an impression of someone that he is not . Also I do I agree that Holden is a confused kid ,he evens confused me some times , I say this because he uses uses to fake this person his not and I just think that he's fine the way he is .
Delete"I nodded and took out my handkerchief . "I got hit with a snowball" I said . "One of those very ice ones". I probably would've told her what really happened, but it would've taken too long. " (56)
ReplyDeleteThis like sort of confused me and stood out to be because is now is pattern that he lies about things. Is like he uses lies as to escape from reality. He always lies about the not so serious things. He confused me because he always tries to make his self feel stupid. He tries to show people that he can't do thing or he not good enough so everybody looks at him like he does not have potential to do thing . We all know Holden is a very smart kid and he has the potential to do what ever he wants even with all he's flaws . I think that Holden is more afraid to tell about him self cause of the way people is going to think about him. Like thing the second part of the quote he goes " I probably would told her what really happened " I think by him saying this is like I want to tell her but then their a really Insecure part about him that's saying if I do tell her what really happen , what would she think about me .
"I thought we might have just one cocktail together. It isn't too late. (pg.65)"
ReplyDeleteThe idea of getting cocktails, continues to come up throughout the reading. This specific offer was given to a women he was told about that was known for not being exactly a whore or anything but that didn't mind doing it once in a while. While reading this some people might just assume that Holden is persistent to get to meet this women because he wants to "get some", but I see it just as an option to get company. The women should not have really felt special because Holden was't an exactly a prude with cocktail invitations. When being in the train, he strikes up conversation with the mother of a student he goes, but really "went", to school with. When realizing he really takes interest in the lady, he offers her an invitation to cocktails on the train, but is soon turned down. Holden also gives the same offer to his taxi driver. Holden looks for company in this taxi driver he just met, but he as well turns him down. In my perspective, Holden offers all of these invitations because he is desperate need for company. All throughout the recent chapters, his depression grows because of the lack of company. Holden desperately needs company now, which I find strange since he is not the type of person that gets attached to people. I believe this can be traced all the way back to the constant expulsions from his schools, more specifically from his most recent school Pencey. I believe this because instead of Holden cutting the cord from Pencey or any other school, they cut the cord on him. This could even further be seen as a form of abandonment, which may refer to the different emotions between wanting to have company, and wanting to be isolated.
"I don't mean that I'm over sexed or anything-- Though I am quite sexy, I just like 'em. I mean. They're always leaving their goddam bags out in the middle of the aisle" pp. 54
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of the way it was written, it starts of kind of modest, when he says: "I'm not oversexed or anything", but then immediately he sounds a bit cocky, when he says: "--Though I am quite sexy", then he sort of goes back to modest, and then he goes off on a complete tangent and actually says something negative about the woman, or woman in general, which do you guys think he's talking about? Anyway, I think that is even more evidence that the Holden that we see in the story is only the tip of the iceberg, and that Holden will slowly show more of himself throughout the story.
"My ears where nice and warm, though. The hat I bought had earlaps in it, so i put them on - I didn't give a damn how I looked." Page 53
ReplyDeleteI think that this quote shows how important this hat is to Holden and how he uses it to his feelings. As he says he doesn't give a damn about he looked this shows that this hat gives him a sense of comfort. This puts him in a place where he is confortable with expressing his true his feelings, not physically, but mentally. Holden also thinks that the hat is a source of protection for example when he leaves his school he ran down the corridor in the middle of the night and screamed "sleep tight you morons!" while clinging on to his hat which shows he is fearful of what might happen next and he needs his hat to protect him foam that.
-Ethan Richard Burda I